Primordial: 4 languages in one?

[Nagog]

So I was just looking at the Storm Sorcerer, and I noticed a note about it's Wind Speaker ability (that gives you Primordial as a language). The note says:



Knowing this language allows you to understand and be understood by those who speak its dialects: Aquan, Auran, Ignan, and Terran.

Is this true for the language in general, or only those who learn it through this feature? If it's universally true, why would anybody pick any of the sub-dialects?

[Man_Over_Game]

So I was just looking at the Storm Sorcerer, and I noticed a note about it's Wind Speaker ability (that gives you Primordial as a language). The note says:



Is this true for the language in general, or only those who learn it through this feature? If it's universally true, why would anybody pick any of the sub-dialects?

From my understanding, it's the other way around. The 4 dialects are closer to "accents", with Primordial being the language.

So a Fire Elemental can talk to a Water Elemental, they just might need to take some time. A Storm Sorcerer would be akin to having no elemental bias, no accent, so it'd probably be seen by elementals as a natural linguist or interpreter.

[RedMage125]

From my understanding, it's the other way around. The 4 dialects are closer to "accents", with Primordial being the language.

So a Fire Elemental can talk to a Water Elemental, they just might need to take some time. A Storm Sorcerer would be akin to having no elemental bias, no accent, so it'd probably be seen by elementals as a natural linguist or interpreter.

REALLY strong accents. Like "Backwoods Alabama" talking to "Highland Scotsman".

[Man_Over_Game]

REALLY strong accents. Like "Backwoods Alabama" talking to "Highland Scotsman".

Funny thought, maybe they'd just work better with nonverbal communication?

[Kyutaru]

So Primordial is basically Latin.

[Aett_Thorn]

REALLY strong accents. Like "Backwoods Alabama" talking to "Highland Scotsman".

Well now I want to see this. Thanks. Now I need to bring someone from rural Louisiana to Scotland.

[Naanomi]

Note there are a handful of creatures who also speak ‘primordial’ without a specific subtype specified

[FrancisBean]

REALLY strong accents. Like "Backwoods Alabama" talking to "Highland Scotsman".

For my games, I treat them as mutually intelligible but impose disadvantage to social rolls if you're using the wrong dialect. For that matter, my current campaign treats common and undercommon the same way, because there's a much stronger connection to the Underdark in my world.

[Tanarii]

For my games, I treat them as mutually intelligible but impose disadvantage to social rolls if you're using the wrong dialect. For that matter, my current campaign treats common and undercommon the same way, because there's a much stronger connection to the Underdark in my world.
Not specific to your world obviously, but I thought Undercommon was generally supposed to be split off from Elvish. In other words, it's Drowish.

[FrancisBean]

Not specific to your world obviously, but I thought Undercommon was generally supposed to be split off from Elvish. In other words, it's Drowish.

Huh. That's funny... She doesn't look Drowish!

[Greywander]

I think viewing them as different dialects of the same language is probably right. And yes, it's good to keep in mind that sometimes people dislike those from "out of town", so to speak, so talking to someone using the dialect of their enemies is likely to create some diplomatic obstacles for you.

And yeah, I'd probably consider Common as a trade language; great for doing business in, but it instantly marks you as a foreigner if you don't speak the local dialect. Everybody speaks Common, because it's required to do business with people coming from very far away, or even from nearby but with an entirely different dialect or language. But nobody speaks Common at home, at church, at wizard school, in the noble's court, etc. You might have one nation, probably one analogous to the British Empire, where Common actually is their native language, and the reason everyone else speaks Common is because their merchants are everywhere. But even when Rome ruled the world, the lingua franca was actually Greek, not Latin. In that case, it could be that the actual native speakers of Common were a former empire that has since fallen, or they might be huge academics whose literature has spread around the world (in which case it probably is spoken in wizard school), or any number of other reasons.

[Naanomi]

Primordial was perhaps derived from the language of the Vaati; who dominated the Inner Planes (and beyond) into a more-or-less coherent empire for untold eons long before the mortal races existed

[NaughtyTiger]

Note there are a handful of creatures who also speak ‘primordial’ without a specific subtype specified

That's a proper FBC accent - Faerun Broadcasting Channel

[P. G. Macer]

Not specific to your world obviously, but I thought Undercommon was generally supposed to be split off from Elvish. In other words, it's Drowish.

I assumed Undercommon was a pidgin or creole language, since it’s primary use according to the PHB is for traders in the Underdark. I’m pretty sure it’s not ”Drowish” because while Duergar and Deep Gnome PCs get Undercommon proficiency, Draw PCs do not.

[Martin Greywolf]

If we take notes from real life, there are languages that are in the same group that are mutually intelligible. It's a harder concept to grasp for English native speakers because I don't think English has one, unless you count regional variants - like US, UK, Australian and so on.

Since the one I know most about is Slavic, I'll stick to that. My first language is Slovak, with being bilingual with Czech as well, so that's two Slavic languages that I can speak and understand fluently. With these, I can read Polish and Croatian texts with some difficulty, and slowly, but Russian and Bulgarian are beyond me - I understand a few words, but that's about it. So, there are mutually intelligible groups of languages within the Slavic group, but they are explicitly noted exceptions, not the general rule.

As for Latin, about the only language where it gets you mutual intelligibility is Italian - maybe, I don't speak much of either, just some technical swordsmanship terms. Most European languages were influenced by Latin and Greek, sure, but that mostly gets you some grammatical structure quirks and loan words, not mutual understanding,

If we apply context of why the mutually intelligible languages are that way to Primordial, your best answer is that the 5 elemental languages are in the same language group, and had historically close ties and a lot fo trade going back and forth, therefore merging somewhat. Speaking one of them should mean you can understand all or most of the others (maybe opposing elements can't understand each other, but can the other two and Primordial) - your limitations are that if they are spoken quickly you won't be able to keep up, and you'll miss out on some nuances of meaning. If they all have different writing systems, you also can't understand those.

[Fnissalot]

If we take notes from real life, there are languages that are in the same group that are mutually intelligible. It's a harder concept to grasp for English native speakers because I don't think English has one, unless you count regional variants - like US, UK, Australian and so on.

Since the one I know most about is Slavic, I'll stick to that. My first language is Slovak, with being bilingual with Czech as well, so that's two Slavic languages that I can speak and understand fluently. With these, I can read Polish and Croatian texts with some difficulty, and slowly, but Russian and Bulgarian are beyond me - I understand a few words, but that's about it. So, there are mutually intelligible groups of languages within the Slavic group, but they are explicitly noted exceptions, not the general rule.

As for Latin, about the only language where it gets you mutual intelligibility is Italian - maybe, I don't speak much of either, just some technical swordsmanship terms. Most European languages were influenced by Latin and Greek, sure, but that mostly gets you some grammatical structure quirks and loan words, not mutual understanding,

If we apply context of why the mutually intelligible languages are that way to Primordial, your best answer is that the 5 elemental languages are in the same language group, and had historically close ties and a lot fo trade going back and forth, therefore merging somewhat. Speaking one of them should mean you can understand all or most of the others (maybe opposing elements can't understand each other, but can the other two and Primordial) - your limitations are that if they are spoken quickly you won't be able to keep up, and you'll miss out on some nuances of meaning. If they all have different writing systems, you also can't understand those.


Swedish, Danish, and Norwegian (and sort of Islandic as well?) are similar as well, so since I speak one, I can follow the others with some difficulty and miscommunication. It is often easier to read the others than speaking them in my opinion. I like this way of seeing primordial.

[Unoriginal]

Yes, Primordial has its four dialects, and someone who understand it understands and is understood by the speakers of the four dialects. If the dialect speakers see you as a linguist or as someone who learned "stuffy written Elemental, not the actual living spoken language" is probably up to each individual.


I remember a funny moment in a D&D livestream I watched, where a Triton Cleric PC and a priestess of a fire god met, and the opinion they had of each other *immediately* soured when one spoke Aquan and the other Ignan.



I’m pretty sure it’s not ”Drowish” because while Duergar and Deep Gnome PCs get Undercommon proficiency, Draw PCs do not.

Yeah, the Drow haven't abandoned Elvish as their main language.

[Tanarii]

I assumed Undercommon was a pidgin or creole language, since it’s primary use according to the PHB is for traders in the Underdark. I’m pretty sure it’s not ”Drowish” because while Duergar and Deep Gnome PCs get Undercommon proficiency, Draw PCs do not.looked it up.

I'm thinking of forgotten realms, where it's drowish derived with other borrowed words, and uses Espruar, the elven alphabet. Just as common is Chondathan derived and using its alphabet.

5e Drow do speak Undercommon. MM 128. If PC drow do not that's either an oversight, or maybe they're supposed to be surface drow, not associated with deep drow? Don't know, I've skipped past the drow PC section every time I've gotten to it, because Drow PCs are an abomination that shouldn't exist in a core PHB ever.

[Sigreid]

I assume it's like Portuguese and Spanish, or several of the Scandinavian languages. They aren't the same, but they're close enough for the speakers to understand each other with just a little effort.

[Hal]

For my games, I treat them as mutually intelligible but impose disadvantage to social rolls if you're using the wrong dialect. For that matter, my current campaign treats common and undercommon the same way, because there's a much stronger connection to the Underdark in my world.

So, I'm running an elemental planes themed game where there are four regions where each of the primordial dialects is the local equivalent of common. I started out doing this; the players learned Ignan in a crash course, so they had disadvantage on all social checks.

I eventually dropped that because it really drags down the social pillar when it's always disadvantaged.

At this point, I just say that any failed social checks are a result of bad understanding of a language they don't grasp yet, so hilarity can result. And since they're all speaking Ignan, it's instantly recognized by people from the other regions where they're coming from (with all the consequences of it that follow.)

[Rawrawrawr]

Some of these languages are actually families of languages with many dialects. For example, the Primordial language includes the Auran, Aquan, Ignan, and Terran dialects, one for each of the four elemental planes. Creatures that speak different dialects of the same language can communicate with one another.

So yes, this goes for everyone, even if you pick one of the dialects.

To be fair, dialects can still be very different from one another - try comparing Scots Wikipedia to English Wikipedia some time :smalltongue:
https://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh

[KorvinStarmast]

Well now I want to see this. Thanks. Now I need to bring someone from rural Louisiana to Scotland.
Try rural western Virginia versus Boston.
Nearly incomprehensible in 1975.
I had to act as translator sometimes.
(Two ladies I worked with in a retail outfit)

[Greywander]

So, as stated many times already, these are probably all dialects of Primordial, rather than separate languages. So it's probably similar to how UK English sounds different from US English, which sounds different from Australian English, etc. However, I remembered a YouTube video I'd seen that talks about mutual intelligibility between languages, and specifically about asymmetric mutual intelligibility, where one speaker has an easier time understanding the other speaker than vice versa. I find linguistics to be really interesting, so I thought I'd just drop a link here for anyone who might be interested in that type of content.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E042GHlUgoQ