Optimization Theorycrafting: If spellcasters could choose their spellcasting ability [Archive]

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Wasp

2020-08-18, 10:37 PM

ProsecutorGodot

2020-08-18, 10:38 PM

Wizards would dip Hexblade at little to no opportunity cost and we'd be in for some serious shenanigans.

Wizard_Lizard

2020-08-18, 10:50 PM

Damn you can now Palizard and that'd be fun. Smites for DAYSSSSS...
Also make it go off wisdom for bonus points, as it gets ou the best skills (Arguably, Charisma is a clos contender i'd say)

LudicSavant

2020-08-18, 10:53 PM

BloodSnake'sCha

2020-08-19, 12:57 AM

I will change my lore bard from cha based to int based.
She is an archivist and her calling is to learn everything at every cost.(CN is fun).

XmonkTad

2020-08-19, 04:37 PM

If spellcasters could choose freely between INT, WIS and CHA as their spellcasting ability when picking a class - what would you do with this?

I'd finally get to multi class wizard (diviner)/monk for a Jedi build. It's difficult to multi class those two, but a wisdom wizard could do it. Portent plus stunning strike (or quivering palm) is amazing, and shadow blade really completes the look.

Man_Over_Game

2020-08-19, 04:49 PM

Hi everyone!

I know this would be totally broken, but I thought recently that it could make sense to have a cleric that is actually charismatic or a Lore Bard that is studious and came to the conclusion this could be an interesting thought experiment, so:

If spellcasters could choose freely between INT, WIS and CHA as their spellcasting ability when picking a class - what would you do with this?

This chosen spellcasting ability would also be the relevant stat for multiclassing (or would it be a way to balance this by keeping the old stat restrictions?) and be applied otherwise as it makes sense.

What crazy, broken, cool, flavorful or strange build can you come up with in this scenario?

Cheers

Wasp

Actually, I have the answer to this!

I was making a homebrew modification to the game that allowed players to replace the attributes listed in their class features to another, specific attribute.

Then, I included specific leveling requirements for you to maintain that changed attribute. By controlling what features/levels/classes you have access to, you can avoid creating content that's more powerful than the core content (which is basically the definition of power creep).

And there's a lot. Like ~2 per class, including things like Strength Monk+Barbarian, Intelligence Monk+Wizard, or Charisma Cleric+Paladin. Basically anything more than one person probably thought "Hey, there's a cool concept that I can't do because of [RULES]".

I added justifications in spoilers, so that it's not just "Some guy on the internet said this was fine", but "Some information on the internet shows that this is fine".

A lot of the justifications break down what problems the limitations are preventing, things like "don't let medium-armored casters multiclass with sorcerers or warlocks", or "don't let a light-armored caster dip into Paladin otherwise they'll cheese out armor proficiencies and Divine Smite", or "who cares that Monks get Shield, since everyone else can and Monks have the worst AC and Monks already have a lot to spend their Reaction on".

A lot of players want to mix and match different classes to fit a really cool theme, further than the current system allows. Things like: Intelligence-based Warlocks or Monks, Wisdom-based Sorcerers, etc.

To allow players to make these kinds of builds, and to still maintain a semblance of balance, I've created Prestige Options:

===============

The Rules

Classes you have levels for now can use alternate modifiers for their features, so long as you obey the requirements for those classes. If you are unable to meet the requirement for any reason, you must use the default attribute for those features.

Multiclassing requirements are changed to match the new Prestige Option attributes, except if changing an ability or taking a level into a class would invalidate the Prestige Option. In those circumstances, you must obey both the current multiclass requirement as well as any multiclass requirements after the attempted change (so if you use Wisdom as a Sorcerer and want to unlearn Detect Magic, you must have both 13 Charisma AND 13 Wisdom to do so, and you'll have to use Charisma for your Sorcerer features until you are able to cast Detect Magic again). Without DM's discretion, you can only use one Prestige Option at a time.

Any changes to attributes apply only to the relevant class or subclass features. For instance, changing a class features from using Dexterity will not have any impact on your AC unless you calculate your AC from a class/subclass feature (like Unarmored Defense).

Barbarian
Force of Nature
You can take the Barbarian, using your Strength in place of Dexterity for your Barbarian features.
Requirement: The only Barbarian subclass available to you is the Path of the Storm Herald. Additionally, at least half of your character levels (rounded up) must be in Barbarian.
[Example: A warrior returns from the wilds, changed. His body contains the literal essence of a storm, and only his indomitable physicality kept it contained.]
I figured that since the Storm Herald has to focus on maximizing Constitution for the sake of their Saving Throws, and the fact that the Herald would not likely consider using a Bonus Action attack with a weapon, it is rather hard to cheese out spammed high damage Strength attacks if Dex was no longer needed. A Barbarian could choose to do something like GWM and max out Strength for high damage, but then they'd run into a problem where their subclass doesn't provide them anything for their playstyle. They'd have to invest heavily in both Strength and Constitution stats to get the most out of the subclass features, which becomes its own sort of MADness.
Additionally, Storm Herald is notoriously bad (I mean, 2 damage per round? Come on). You're forced to invest into Barbarian for this Option, so you can't just cheat and get Strength+Constitution version of Unarmored Defense. Still a buff, just not as big of a deal as you might initially think.

Force of Savagery
You can take the Barbarian, using Dexterity in place of Strength for your Barbarian features.
Requirement: The only Barbarian subclass available to you is the Path of the Berserker. Additionally, at least half of your character levels (rounded up) must be in Barbarian.
[Example: A savage has learned to tap into his primal instincts, and strikes at the speed of thought. However, doing so puts much strain on his body and mind.]
I find it's roughly balanced, due to the fact that the main benefit of the standard Berserker is to launch several high damage, Strength-based weapon attacks at the enemy, and the highest damage a Dexterity equivalent would be is a 1d8.

You effectively lose Reach and 1-2 damage for increased AC and ranged attacks. The redundancy with Two-Weapon fighting also makes it less of an appealing choice for optimizers who are hoping to break something in that direction.

The ranged attacks are also unusable for the Berserker's features, so all-in-all, it's not much better than the original, if at all, but it fits a niche that a lot of people like, while also being unique enough as an identity to not need Frenzy to feel interesting.

The idea is that it's a Barbarian that utilizes a Haste-like effect to move faster than his opponent, but it has similar drawbacks to the spell (in that it wears you out). Mechanically, you have more AC than any other Barbarian (as a fast Barbarian should) but you lose out on a decent bit of damage unless you're willing to Frenzy constantly, and you'll never outdamage a Strength version (although you'll probably live a lot longer).

Bard
College of Truth
You can take the Bard, using your Intelligence modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for your Bard features.
Requirement: The only Bard subclass available to you is the College of Lore. Additionally, at least half of your character levels (rounded up) must be in Bard.
[Example: A traveler seeks to spread knowledge of the world, and uses the knowledge they have gained as a source of power.]
I can't really think of too many problems having an Intelligence-based Bard would cause, mostly due to the lack of Intelligence-based content.

The main concern I had was an Eldritch Knight or an Arcane Trickster using it to fuel things like Shield or Absorb Elements, while still trying to avoid the low Hit-Die of a Wizard. There's also the minor concern of a Grapple-focused Eldritch Knight Enlarging himself, so I made it that you have to focus on being a Bard over anything else. Bards have a lot of benefits from being a dip, and I just wanted to make sure that the Wizard was still a valid choice as an Intelligence multiclass choice.

Cleric
Clergy of the People
You can take the Cleric, using your Charisma modifier in place of your Wisdom modifier for your Cleric features.
Requirement: You cannot take Warlock or Sorcerer levels.
[Example: A cleric chooses to live their life by aiding those in need, and to make the world a better place through the spoken word of the people]
You're going to hear this a LOT: Don't allow the Sorcerer and Warlock to multiclass with others. This is because they change how spellcasting works, to make it more versatile. Other classes, like the Cleric, can't use all of their features at the same time, but the Sorcerer and Warlock CAN (as their biggest features are Metamagics and Short-Rest Spell slot recharging). As an example, mixing the Cleric with those classes ends up with a high-AC, high-Concentration caster with too many tools and too much versatility. A Cleric/Sorcerer/Warlock could do anything, solve any problem, and be tanky to boot.

With these restrictions, a Bard/Cleric might have some slightly higher AC, but ends up only being able to cast as at the same combat level of a lower level Cleric. A Cleric/Paladin has a lot of redundant proficiencies. There's just not a lot you can break with these restrictions.

Disciple of Oghma
You can take the Knowledge or Arcana Cleric, using your Intelligence modifier in place of your Wisdom modifier for your Cleric features.
Requirement: You cannot have levels into the War Mage Wizard subclasses. Additionally, you cannot have more Wizard levels than you have Cleric levels.
[Example: A historian, honoring their deity through practice of their scriptures rather than through prayer.]
The War Mage is a generic murder-hobo mage subclass, and I want to remove any incentive for pure-combat builds from these changes. Any combat Wizard with medium/heavy armor proficiencies and more level 1 spell slots is a recipe for disaster, so I find it's best to focus on the Cleric side of things (which deals considerably less damage).

Druid
Circle of the Many
You can take the Druid, using your Charisma modifier in place of your Wisdom modifier for your Druid features.
Requirement: The only Druid subclass available to you is the Circle of Shephards.
[Example: A sage has an innate gift to speak to all creatures, and teaches them all to live in harmony]
I'm not actually worried about Sorcerer/Warlock hybrids with this one. Not only are the summons not very malleable with Metamagics, but you need to have a LOT of Warlock levels before you can fuel them (Warlock level 5), and the Shephard features don't enhance summons until level 7. You need to be at least level 12 before the multiclassing pays off, so it ends up being very inefficient to multiclass in this example.

Fighter
Arcane Seeker
You can take the Fighter, using your Wisdom modifier in place of your Intelligence modifier for your Fighter features.
Requirement: The only Fighter subclass available to you is the Arcane Archer.
[Example: A warrior, raised by elves, learns the secrets needed to protect their sacred lands.]
It just makes sense. They can already get Druidcraft. The Ranger has a lot more synergies with the Druid or Cleric than the Arcane Seeker does, and that's the biggest concern here.

Worst case scenario, you could go Kensei/Ranger, I suppose, but that seems much cooler than overpowered.

Monk
Way of the Closed Fist:
You can take the Monk, using your Strength modifier in place of your Dexterity modifier for your Monk features.
Requirement: The only Monk subclass available to you is the Way of the Open Palm.
[Example: A troubled youth learns to harness his strength for good, channeling his forceful nature through his fists.
A bit odd, I know, but the Open Hand relies really heavily on Wisdom compared to the other melee-oriented Monks. Your damage output is a bit higher by mixing in with Barbarian, but your Ki point reserve takes a hit. With no Wisdom, you deal the same damage as a Barbarian with a Monk dip, and having Wisdom means that your Strength/Constitution is going to be lower (meaning either less damage/hits, or less HP that stacks with Rage).

While the Barbarian/Monk combination does seem strong compared to a normal Barbarian, consider the fact that Rage works best with a high HP pool, and the Monk gains 2 less HP per level than the Barbarian. Leveling in this way means that you're able to absorb about 3-4 less damage per level than the classic Barbarian, making this an even less effective choice.

Lastly, you also weaken the Monk's Evasion ability by changing it to Strength, a much less common and less threatening Saving Throw.

Way of the Disciplined Eye
You can take the Monk, using your Intelligence modifier in place of your Wisdom modifier for your Monk features.
Requirement: The only Monk subclasses available to you are the Ways of the Sun Soul, Four Elements, and the Long Death. Additionally, you cannot have more Wizard levels than you have Monk levels.
[Example: A reclusive student learns the forbidden arts of his temple after much time spent in the library, and seeks to hone his newfound knowledge with practice.]
Make sure to not allow a Wizard to cheat his way into high AC without some kind of cost. In this case, we're talking about Unarmored Defense, which can completely go out of hand when considering something like Bladesinger's AC bonus.

It can be a concern of a Monk dipping a few levels into Wizard, which provides things like Shield and Absorb Elements, but this does mean a smaller HP pool. The War Mage is a solid choice, but the Reaction benefit really competes with the Monk's existing Reaction uses (Deflect Missiles, Slowfall) which are already very powerful choices. You are not gaining the ability to Deflect Missiles AND gain +2 AC AND gain Shield, only the option to do one of the three, and that's perfectly reasonable.

A Monk built this way cannot go fully Intelligence and abuse Bladesinger or Wizard levels, due to the fact that effects like Shillelagh are only possible using Charisma (via Tome Warlock) or Wisdom. Intelligence has no method to attack with a weapon, and so a Dexterity-less Monk will have VERY weak attacks compared to a balanced one. A fair trade, considering the spellcasting and AC benefits.

Paladin
Oath of Superiority
You can take the Paladin, using your Intelligence modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for your Paladin features.
Requirement: The only Paladin subclass available to you is the Oath of Conquest. Additionally, you cannot have more Wizard levels than your Paladin levels.
[Example: A dark knight uses his superior intellect to dominate those with weaker minds than him.]
Make sure that Wizards can't get cheatyface AC from a low level dip. A main-Paladin can dip into Wizard for Shield and Absorb Elements, but this is already doable with Sorcerer, and Sorcerer can cheat out Twin Spell Booming Blade, so it's still better than the Paladin/Wizard Hybrid.

Admittedly, the restriction for Conquest is a narrative choice, but no other Paladin Oath really seemed to justify a change to Intelligence. I added this one mostly due to popular request.

Oath of the Old Ways
You can take the Paladin, using your Wisdom modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for your Paladin features.
Requirement: The only Paladin subclass available to you is the Oath of the Ancients. Additionally, you cannot have more Druid levels than your Paladin levels.
[Example: An orphan, raised by denizens of the forests, grows to be its solitary protector.]
Going through a checklist reveals that nothing is broken by this option:
Clerics already have access to armor and healing of a Paladin. Paladin provides some burst damage potential, but at the cost of a lot of redundant abilities (like inefficient healing via Lay on Hands vs. Healing Word, or redundant armor/weapon proficiencies).
Druids gain some armor, and have decent spellcasting, but their emphasis on Concentration doesn't do well with a primarily melee multiclass. Moon Druids get a minor buff, but that armor won't be usable in this combination. Similar to Clerics, but while the Druid has more close-ranged damage spells than Clerics, they rely on Concentration too much for a Paladin/Druid to rely on them too much.
Rangers get heavy armor, I guess? Not much else to gain here.
Monks get Divine Smite, but not much else.

In all of these circumstances, a multiclass will generally cause the Paladin to lose Paladin levels and delay those powerful Paladin features, so it all seems fine to me. Especially when the Paladin+Sorcerer Twinned Booming Blade or Paladin+Warlock Smite Spam options are much more explosive than anything a Wisdom Paladin could get.

Ranger
Chronicler Conclave
You can take the Ranger, using your Intelligence modifier in place of your Wisdom modifier for your Ranger features.
Requirement: The only Ranger subclasses available to you are the Horizon Walker and Monster Slayer. Additionally, the only Wizard subclasses available to you are the Schools of Abjuration, Conjuration and Divination.
[Example: A journalist travels across the multiverse to experience and log everything for his magnum opus. A veteran uses his knowledge of various monstrosities to lay them to rest.]
You gain access to a reusable Shield, but you're limited to the weaker Ranger subclasses, and ones that are primarily ranged combatants.

I'm not going to lie, this was mostly a targeted buff to Rangers, but let's be real: They need it.

The Wizard doesn't get much out of a multiclass like this, as the Ranger still lacks heavy armor and is attack-reliant, so most Wizards are just better off multiclassing into Fighter for a build like this. Taking Ranger levels is a pretty big investment when the biggest benefit (higher AC) can be accomplished with a Mage Armor spell.

Rogue
Thug
Your Sneak Attack feature no longer requires a Finesse or Ranged weapon. Instead, it now requires a Melee weapon. Your Sneak Attack die is now a 1d4 instead of a 1d6, but it can now apply to more than one attack per turn. You start with proficiency in Medium Armor and Martial Weapons.

Requirement: You must choose to level into this version of the Rogue with your first Rogue level, and you cannot change your choice after it has been made.
[Example: A brute lives a life of hardship, doing whatever it takes to survive. He discovers there's more gold and longevity in adventuring than browbeating merchants.]
The Thug is unique, in that it actually changes around how the class plays. It was the only way I could think of to successfully add support for a Strength-based Rogue. I created a thread shortly after, to encourage people into creating builds that were overpowered using this change, and....there were none. Barbarian Rogues become slightly better. Polearm Master will deal more damage than Crossbow Expert, but overall, there isn't much that's improved from these changes in terms of power.

Sorcerer
Sorcerous Medium
You can take the Sorcerer, using your Wisdom modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for your Sorcerer features.
Requirement: You cannot take levels into Cleric or Druid. You must be able to cast Detect Magic.
[Example: A powerful mage, aware of all forms of power around him, can feel nearby magic and bend it gracefully.]
Cleric and Druids have some solid armor and a lot of versatility as prepared casters. Those classes have access to a lot of great Concentration spells, and those Concentration spells are easily abusable with Metamagics.
Don't exaggerate that by allowing them to multiclass with Sorcerer. Other than giving Monks and Rangers Shield, there's not anything scary by this choice.
Detect Magic was added as a requirement to lower the overall power creep of mixing the Sorcerer with a Martial class. Now you have slightly fewer murderhobo shenanigans.

Sorcerous Bond
You can take the Sorcerer, using your Constitution modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for your Sorcerer features.
Requirement: Between 1/5 and 1/2 of all of your Class levels must be in Sorcerer.
[Example: A warrior receives a gift from a powerful benefactor, aligning his fate with a new purpose and power.]
You can mix-and-match this in a lot of different ways-kinda the point-but there's not too many means of breaking it. In most situations, you're better off just taking a level or two into the normal choice for a particular build, like Eldritch Knight + Wizard, or Monk + Druid. The forced 1/5-1/2 ratio means you're unable to abuse Sorcerer spell slots to their maximum capability, and you're unable to leave the level where it lies.
As a result, you delay Extra Attack, higher level spells, and a whole plethora of benefits to...gain Shield? Move as you cast spells? Enhance your healing slightly?

Even something that maxes out Constitution, like a Barbarian, might reconsider when he has to wait until level 7 to get Extra Attack.

In favor for it, though, it turns anyone into a Gish. Sorcerer happens to have some of the best spells to augment a melee combatant, and the extra cantrips helps a lot if you don't have many caster levels.

Warlock
Chosen of the Forbidden Blade
You can take the Hexblade Warlock subclass, using your Wisdom modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for your Warlock features.
Requirement: Half of your total character levels (rounded up) must be in Warlock.
[Example: A sentinel in a temple maintains a corrupted spirit blade, until it breaks. The spirit now inhabits him and grants him dark powers.]
You want to avoid letting characters dip into Warlock easily, and Hexblade is the biggest example of what a problem it can create, with access to Shield and all.

My solution is to make Warlocks a primary class, which removes any kind of low-level magic cheese. Warlocks have so many build options that players aren't really forced into any one playstyle by doing so.

Chosen of the Fey
You can take the Archfey Warlock subclass, using your Wisdom modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for your Warlock features.
Requirement: You cannot have more Ranger levels than you do Warlock.
[Example: A guardian of the wilds finds a benefactor for their cause.]
Ranger gets a lot out of a mobile caster like this, not to mention that Ranger provides all the proficiencies a Warlock would need, so I made the restriction specific to them.

Monks would get Absorb Elements, but otherwise wouldn't be able to abuse the spellcasting.
Druids focus heavily on Concentration, and other than that, wouldn't become that much more effective if they were allowed to have Short-Rest spell slot recharging (which is what the Land Druid does anyway).

All-in-all, not much of a problem in any scenario.

Chosen of Death's Defiant
You can take the Undying Warlock subclass, using your Constitution modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for your Warlock features.
Requirement: Half of your character levels (rounded up) must be in Warlock.
[Example: A hero stays alive by bonding his soul to an immortal being who is impressed by the hero's stubbornness to die. Invigorated, the hero now relies on this bond to stay a hero.]
One of my favorites, it works well with multiclassing into a martial class, but it doesn't allow you to dip for an easily overpowered Eldritch Blast.

It's a minor boost to the power level of the Undying Patron, but it's not like it's going to cause people to take it in swarms. You're still limited in your damage abilities, and you can't invest a whole lot into martial classes. You could take a level into Barbarian and rock some Rage + Armor of Agathys, but that's an underplayed scenario with a lot of cool things going for it (as well as a lot of self-harming effects, like Rage and casting). This was an intentional buff, but nothing I can come up with really makes it overpowered.

Chosen of Infinite Truths:
You can take the Great Old One Warlock subclass, using your Intelligence modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for your Warlock features.
Requirement: Half of your character levels (rounded up) must be in Warlock.
[Example: A Mage, willing to do whatever it takes for more knowledge and power, sells his soul to the highest bidder and spies on the mortal world.]
Once again, be careful about letting other classes easily dip into Warlock.

All the existing intelligence characters may have mixed feelings about dipping into a non-combat oriented Warlock subclass that you're forced to make your primary class, but that's the cost of Short Rest Spell Slots.

Wizard
Natural Enchanter:
You can take levels into Wizard, using your Charisma modifier in place of your Intelligence modifier for your Wizard features.
Requirement: The only Wizard subclass available to you is the School of Enchantment. Additionally, you cannot take levels into Sorcerer or Paladin.
[Example: A magical con-artist learns that manipulation starts with practice before study, and combines both to reach his goals.]
Blocked Paladin to avoid allowing Wizards access to cheap and easy AC, but also for a narrative reason (as this is an Enchanter who learned to manipulate out of habit). Sorcerer is blocked, mostly because of the fact that Metamagic is very powerful with single target Enchantment spells.

Warlock isn't blocked for once, due to the fact that the Enchanter has a lot more options to work with than spamming Tasha's Hideous Laughter, or other Concentration spells, and doesn't really get much out of the Warlock. You let the Wizard be able to cast Shield more often, but the Enchanter might as well have just invested into more Wizard levels.

Natural Diviner:
You can take levels into Wizard, using your Wisdom modifier in place of your Intelligence modifier for your Wizard features.
Requirement: The only Wizard subclass available to you is the School of Divination. Additionally, you cannot have levels of Cleric.
[Example: A psychic has learned to tap into subtle signs of the future world around them, constantly aware of that which is and will be.]
You want to avoid letting Clerics and Wizards merge willy nilly, due to how powerful Wizards can be if they're allowed to maintain Concentration for too long when considering the Cleric's AC. Cleric dipping into Wizard is calling for unwanted Murderhobo abuse with Shield and Absorb Elements on something like Tempest Cleric that would outshine almost any other gish build, so it's best to just not let Clerics and Wizards mingle.

Other Wisdom classes, like Monks, Druids or Rangers, don't provide ludicrous levels of AC for low investments, nor do they have many things that enhance the Wizard's ability to cast spells. If anything, you might see those classes dip a level into Wizard for Shield or something, but most of them generally want to avoid direct combat and won't get the extreme levels of mitigation that a Fighter or Paladin with Shield would get.

There's a link to it in my signature (under Prestige Options) if you wanted to read any discussions/disagreements people had.

Kane0

2020-08-19, 05:48 PM

Ones I allow already: INT Warlock, WIS Paladin
Ones that I would permit but nobody has asked me about yet: INT Cleric, WIS Sorcerer, INT Ranger, alternate casting stat EK/AT (all three have potential depending on flavor)
Ones that I probably wouldn't allow without a very persuasive case: alternate casting stat Bard, Druid or Wizard

Yunru

2020-08-19, 05:51 PM

Kane0

2020-08-19, 05:58 PM

Man_Over_Game

2020-08-19, 06:04 PM

Bards are mostly about performing, so I suppose it doesn't gel in my head to have one that is mostly academic (INT) or introspective (WIS). If you could hit me with a character concept that makes sense then i'm open to it, but I haven't come up with much that couldn't be better represented as another class or MC I suppose.

They focus more heavily on skills. One strong example is the Bard of Lore, who is not only able to learn from any class, but your capstone is actually more skills.

"Bards of the College of Lore know something about most things, collecting bits of knowledge from sources as diverse as scholarly tomes and peasant tales. [...] The college’s members gather in libraries and sometimes in actual colleges, complete with classrooms and dormitories, to share their lore with one another. They also meet at festivals or affairs of state, where they can expose corruption, unravel lies, and poke fun at self-important figures of authority."

But also, on the class itself:

Skills: Choose any three.

• (a) a Diplomat's Pack
Ritual Casting
Jack of All Trades
Bard College
Expertise
Magical Secrets

If anything, it'd make a lot more sense if Bards were drifting scholars than traveling pranksters. The only times Bards use Performance is during Song of Rest and Countercharm, which neither ever get used, and that was likely just to fit the existing image of the bard than "yeah, it makes sense to play a guitar solo to end this spell, sure".

Kane0

2020-08-19, 06:11 PM

Yes I understand the more intellectual Bard, especially in the Greek philosopher sense, but even if they dabble in high education they are still public speakers, playwrights, comics, etc. They still primarily entertain by engaging their audience which still relies on CHA just as much as INT.

Man_Over_Game

2020-08-19, 06:14 PM

Kyutaru

2020-08-19, 06:27 PM

Man_Over_Game

2020-08-19, 06:35 PM

This has the potential to be very bad. Martials already have issues with the Strength/Dexterity divide and Constitution has never even come up as a problem. Throwing three stats into the mix that all primarily enhance skills can be very meta.

Potential, sure, but what happens when we limit that potential? For example, you can only choose to adjust it for one class? Or you can only use Charisma on a non-Charisma class if you have twice as many levels into a Charisma class?

Kyutaru

2020-08-19, 06:48 PM

Potential, sure, but what happens when we limit that potential? For example, you can only choose to adjust it for one class? Or you can only use Charisma on a non-Charisma class if you have twice as many levels into a Charisma class?
We get pretty much what we already have. Every class having a choice between two stats to focus on. Some due to subclasses.

Kane0

2020-08-19, 06:49 PM

I guess my question then is, what mechanics about the bard works better through Charisma than through Intelligence?

Speaking purely mechanically there's isn't much of a problem swapping CHA to something else, it really only affects save, casting and inspiration.

Man_Over_Game

2020-08-19, 06:57 PM

Speaking purely mechanically there's isn't much of a problem swapping CHA to something else, it really only affects save, casting and inspiration.

Sorry, I mean thematically. What about the Bard chassis makes more sense from using Charisma than Intelligence?

Kane0

2020-08-19, 07:30 PM

Kyutaru

2020-08-19, 07:42 PM

The issue then is the limited view of Intelligence. It's far beyond memorization. They can interact with the world through physics and calculus or understand how plans may deviate by planning contingency after contingency. Int-based characters are tinkerers, inventors, researchers, artisans, engineers, and witty too. Wit is sanity while charisma is charm and one possessed of higher Int than Cha might be exceptional eloquent and clever even if he's most unlikable. Nerds tend to fall in this category, boosting their Int scores and dumping their Cha stat.

Man_Over_Game

2020-08-19, 07:45 PM

To take from the Bard Blurb:
Whether scholar, skald, or scoundrel, a bard weaves magic through words and music to inspire allies, demoralize foes, manipulate minds, create illusions, and even heal wounds.
In the worlds of D&D, words and music are not just vibrations of air, but vocalizations with power all their own. The bard is a master of song, speech, and the magic they contain.

So to me if INT is about knowing, WIS is about understanding and CHA is about interacting, then the Bard falls best into the CHA camp. Only the word scholar implies INT to me, which dovetails into Lore bard knowing more but still fundamentally using that knowledge to interact.

Sorry, I guess I'm bad at explaining what I'm asking.

In 5e, there are a lot of thematic elements that you can ignore. Paladins don't need Oaths, Warlock Patrons can be Gods, Barbarians can be themed as half-werewolves. That kind of stuff. The developers always made a point to allow players to replace their vision of things with someone else's, which is why you could theme your Wizard as a crazy Alchemist with explosive potions in a sanctioned, Adventure League game. Things got complicated when something like Counterspell came up, but as long as he did what the rules told him to, he was fine.

However, just like that example with Counterspell, there are some rigid elements that prevent someone from just reskinning something perfectly. It doesn't matter how you reskin a Paladin, they heal people, they detect Outsiders, deal Radiant damage, and they have a bunch of other spells associated with holy-ness. It's hard to make them a non-holy concept.

Similarly, if you tried to reskin a Ranger as anything but "Wilderness guy", you're going to have a hard time, since it's not like you can just put a cover over Favored Terrain...it basically defines your theme.

So say we did the same to the Bard - that we kept the mechanics, made our own flavor text, swapped it over into an Intelligent traveling scholar - what doesn't work?

Kane0

2020-08-19, 07:50 PM

See if you wanted to convince me of an INT bard all you would have to do is say something like 'Im going for a methodical, educated songwriter/playwright. Studied the works of the greats, delved into musical/theatrical theory, develops testable predictions on his work. Like real Boethius or D'Arezzo vibes"

That sounds like an INT Bard, and i'd be all for it. Telling me I consider my interpretations of INT vs CHA wrong ain't gonna do it.

Edit: @M_O_G oh yeah for sure, that'd work just fine. There's nothing that would tie you down if you're looking to refluff the class as a scholar type. My contention was that the existing fluff is like 90% musician/performer of some sort, so as above that would need to be downplayed or replaced.

Rynjin

2020-08-19, 07:58 PM

It's kind of interesting. In other editions, it wouldn't be a problem. I KNOW it wouldn't be a problem because I've used a Freeform system that allows for the changing of the use of any mental ability score for another for years, off and on, for Pathfinder.

But 5e has severely imbalanced the stats. In 3.PF, there is a reason to be an Int based character, a Wis based character, and to a lesser extent a CHa based character.

In 5e...I don't know why anybody would ever choose to be an Int based character, because Int doesn't DO anything any more. Charisma is about the same as it always has been (i.e. great if you want to be the face, and useless otherwise), leaving Wisdom as sort of the supreme master stat among the three.

If allowed for 5e I'm pretty sure you'd end up with a plethora of Wis casters, a smattering of Cha casters, and nobody willing to play an Int caster. Mind, I think this speaks more to the uselessness of Int as an attribute in 5e than anything else, but it's still an imbalance caused by your proposed system.

I think if you did this it would need to be a part of a larger attribute overhaul to make all of them a little more useful.

Kyutaru

2020-08-19, 07:59 PM

That sounds like an INT Bard, and i'd be all for it. Telling me I consider my interpretations of INT vs CHA wrong ain't gonna do it.
What can I say? I'm an INT Bard, not a CHA bard. :smallbiggrin:

bid

2020-08-19, 07:59 PM

If spellcasters could choose freely between INT, WIS and CHA as their spellcasting ability when picking a class - what would you do with this?
Swap only.

You can have a Cha wizard, but all Cha-based casters now require Int. It makes school of enchantment marginally better, but that's ok.

Monk gish could be fun with that.

Edea

2020-08-19, 08:30 PM

Or each casting class might have separate spell lists, one for each casting stat, and the one you pick determines what spells you're able to access from any of the classes in question.

So you can choose any casting class chassis for your casting stat, but the spells unlocked might vary wildly based on the chosen stat.

Just some ideas about division via general 'school' (example: an Int druid might lean hard into the shapeshifting angle, while the traditional Wis druid's into the summons and plant/animal spells, and the Cha druid would prefer manipulating the elements to blast the bejesus out of their enemies).

Int - analytical capability. Abjuration, Transmutation, certain types of Conjuration.
Wis - perception and awareness. Divination, Illusion, certain types of Conjuration.
Cha - force of will. Evocation, Enchantment, Necromancy.

Mikal

2020-08-19, 08:31 PM

One word:
Hexbladesinger

Kane0

2020-08-19, 08:40 PM

One word:
Hexbladesinger

Nah mate, give me Warblade.

Wasp

2020-08-20, 02:18 AM

I will change my lore bard from cha based to int based.
Yeah, that was the main thing I was thinking about.

I'd finally get to multi class wizard (diviner)/monk for a Jedi build. It's difficult to multi class those two, but a wisdom wizard could do it. Portent plus stunning strike (or quivering palm) is amazing, and shadow blade really completes the look.
I like the idea!

Actually, I have the answer to this!

I was making a homebrew modification to the game that allowed players to replace the attributes listed in their class features to another, specific attribute. [...]

There's a link to it in my signature (under Prestige Options) if you wanted to read any discussions/disagreements people had.
Thank you very much, this sounds like an interesting way to do it! Very much appreciated!

Ones I allow already: INT Warlock, WIS Paladin
Ones that I would permit but nobody has asked me about yet: INT Cleric, WIS Sorcerer, INT Ranger, alternate casting stat EK/AT (all three have potential depending on flavor)

A CHA or WIS Arcane Trickster - becoming a Divine Trickster that way - was my other main idea that lead to this topic.

This has the potential to be very bad. Martials already have issues with the Strength/Dexterity divide and Constitution has never even come up as a problem. Throwing three stats into the mix that all primarily enhance skills can be very meta.

Maybe we only need a Physical Trait, Constitution and a Spiritual Trait... :smallbiggrin::smallwink:

Potential, sure, but what happens when we limit that potential? For example, you can only choose to adjust it for one class? Or you can only use Charisma on a non-Charisma class if you have twice as many levels into a Charisma class?
I think your idea one can only change the casting stat of one class, could already nerf this a bit. I am wondering if it would be better to discourage dipping somehow...

If allowed for 5e I'm pretty sure you'd end up with a plethora of Wis casters, a smattering of Cha casters, and nobody willing to play an Int caster. Mind, I think this speaks more to the uselessness of Int as an attribute in 5e than anything else, but it's still an imbalance caused by your proposed system.

I think if you did this it would need to be a part of a larger attribute overhaul to make all of them a little more useful.
You are probably right. Maybe one would need to do something about Wisdom Saving Throws as well...

Swap only.

You can have a Cha wizard, but all Cha-based casters now require Int. It makes school of enchantment marginally better, but that's ok.

Monk gish could be fun with that.
Interesting idea. That would definitely favor the martial classes then.

Or each casting class might have separate spell lists, one for each casting stat, and the one you pick determines what spells you're able to access from any of the classes in question.
Cool concept, but that would be an enormous effort. I don't know if it would be worth it?

One word:
Hexbladesinger
No more Smithsingers! :smallbiggrin:

Lvl 2 Expert

2020-08-21, 01:39 PM

A CHA or WIS Arcane Trickster - becoming a Divine Trickster that way - was my other main idea that lead to this topic.

I'm playing a Cha arcane trickster in my current campaign. (With some other modifications. She uses the bard spell list and specializes in abjuration and enchantment rather than illusions ans enchantment. It's a "white curse", she wants to be dark and edgy and intimidate people, but she gets expertise in persuasion and she's also a wereswan, after a fashion. Yes, it's a weird concept.)

I'm sure there are many great ways to abuse it, especially when considering dips, but in non-power gaming game it mostly means you can be an arcane trickster and a face rogue rather than an arcane trickster and a detective rogue. I'm kind of in favor of allowing switching the casting stat and sometimes even the spell list for half casters and less, provided there's a good justification and it's not motivated from a powergaming standpoint. For instance: a ranger casting from intelligence doesn't get better skills, doesn't really get a better save, it just becomes suited for different concepts.

For full caster classes I'm not sure.