High level player deaths

[Torpin]

controversial opinion

I am of the firm opinion that player deaths (not tpks) starting around level 11 just arent a big deal with how readily available resurrection magic is. as such when I am DMing and have a group doing a dungeon crawl, I feel it was too easy if there wasnt at least 1 player death during the course of the exploration, and death at those levels is no different than hp damage, or temporarily being blinded.

[Unoriginal]

controversial opinion

I am of the firm opinion that player deaths (not tpks) starting around level 11 just arent a big deal with how readily available resurrection magic is. as such when I am DMing and have a group doing a dungeon crawl, I feel it was too easy if there wasnt at least 1 player death during the course of the exploration, and death at those levels is no different than hp damage, or temporarily being blinded.

I'm assuming that you're not tracking how many diamonds your PCs have access to, then?

[nickl_2000]

Do your players really have that much cash sitting around that it isn't a big deal to just lose 1000gp? Even in high level campaigns I've never had that much cash available to just lose 1000gp.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

If you modified the amount of treasure in your game go for it.
If you didn't then your players may want to go to a quest for diamonds and gold.
If you have a goldsmith as a player take ideas from him(it is great to have someone who actually knows about gems and gold).

[Tanarii]

If you're killing off players instead of PCs, I'll pass at playing at your table.

Also, I can level up as a player? Why has no one told me thisbefore?

[Democratus]

Do your players really have that much cash sitting around that it isn't a big deal to just lose 1000gp? Even in high level campaigns I've never had that much cash available to just lose 1000gp.

There isn't really much else to spend gold on in default 5e. There are no magic shops. No monetary cost for leveling up.

Why not use that money to purchase components for spells that will keep the characters alive?

Most parties I am in create a group fund for just such purposes.

[nickl_2000]

There isn't really much else to spend gold on in default 5e. There are no magic shops. No monetary cost for leveling up.

Why not use that money to purchase components for spells that will keep the characters alive?

Most parties I am in create a group fund for just such purposes.

Maybe my table is odd then, we always have magic shops and the ability to get magic items. So, we don't have that much free cash sitting around.

[AdAstra]

Not really all that controversial. You had a greater proliferation of save-or-dies as you leveled up in some previous editions of DnD for just this reason. If anything the greatest problem is the debuffs you get if you're dead more than a minute (due to Raise Dead and Resurrection)

[Democratus]

Maybe my table is odd then, we always have magic shops and the ability to get magic items. So, we don't have that much free cash sitting around.

Yeah. The default assumption is that most magic items aren't available for purchase. (DMG p. 135).

[AdAstra]

Nothing more fun to do with adventuring gold than forming a mercenary band. 2 gp per day per person means that for 1000 gp you could contract out 16 people for more than a month.

[nickl_2000]

Yeah. The default assumption is that most magic items aren't available for purchase. (DMG p. 135).

We have all played since at least 3.0 (and most of us played AD&D). So, there is a certain expectation of magic item shops for us and is part of the fun.

[Unoriginal]

We have all played since at least 3.0 (and most of us played AD&D). So, there is a certain expectation of magic item shops for us and is part of the fun.

5e certainly looks VERY different if all magic items from Common to Very Rare are always available in shops.

Exchanging gold for magic items certainly is possible sometime in 5e, but the expectation is that which magic items are in the market isn't fixed and that not all of them are on it. Even in places like Waterdeep where there are dedicated magic item shops it's more "we don't have a Flametongue, sorry, but we've recently acquired this rapier from an half-orc bounty hunter, and it will increase your precision and the wounds recieved by your enemies significantly".

[nickl_2000]

5e certainly looks VERY different if all magic items from Common to Very Rare are always available in shops.

Exchanging gold for magic items certainly is possible sometime in 5e, but the expectation is that which magic items are in the market isn't fixed and that not all of them are on it. Even in places like Waterdeep where there are dedicated magic item shops it's more "we don't have a Flametongue, sorry, but we've recently acquired this rapier from an half-orc bounty hunter, and it will increase your precision and the wounds recieved by your enemies significantly".

Oh, I never said that all magic shops had all items available. What you describe here is more accurate to what we see.

[MaxWilson]

Do your players really have that much cash sitting around that it isn't a big deal to just lose 1000gp? Even in high level campaigns I've never had that much cash available to just lose 1000gp.

The DMG treasure tables give out enormous stacks of cash for CR 17+ monsters, on the order of 150,000 gp per hoard.

[Daracaex]

This is why I disallow most resurrection spells in most of my campaigns. Stakes are often lacking if there is no significant consequence for death.

[AdAstra]

The DMG treasure tables give out enormous stacks of cash for CR 17+ monsters, on the order of 150,000 gp per hoard.

Honestly, that feels like way too much gold. You could basically pay for an army with that kind of cash. Like, thousands of soldiers plus equipment and pay.

[JNAProductions]

This is why I disallow most resurrection spells in most of my campaigns. Stakes are often lacking if there is no significant consequence for death.

Death need not be the only stake. In fact, to me, the story often feels more impactful if death isn't the main stake.

[Democratus]

Honestly, that feels like way too much gold. You could basically pay for an army with that kind of cash. Like, thousands of soldiers plus equipment and pay.

Which is funny, because that was the original motivation for D&D. It was characters making money so they could pay for the armies they used in Chainmail. :smallsmile:

[stoutstien]

Honestly, that feels like way too much gold. You could basically pay for an army with that kind of cash. Like, thousands of soldiers plus equipment and pay.

Sure. Once you find said thousands of unemployed soldiers and equipment.
Then you have the massive bureaucratic and logistic nightmare to consider when dealing with groups that big.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Sure. Once you find said thousands of unemployed soldiers and equipment.
Then you have the massive bureaucratic and logistic nightmare to consider when dealing with groups that big.

Buying an army is also buying commanders and support companys.
You buy it as a package from the logistics and HR companies.

[Unoriginal]

Honestly, that feels like way too much gold. You could basically pay for an army with that kind of cash. Like, thousands of soldiers plus equipment and pay.

Well yeah. Not the biggest army, mind you, but a CR 17 creature is a threat on a country-wide level, so they can get that kind of money.


Sure. Once you find said thousands of unemployed soldiers and equipment.
Then you have the massive bureaucratic and logistic nightmare to consider when dealing with groups that big.

Also this.

Adventuring is easy, feeding and transporting 5000 people is hard.

[Torpin]

relative to wealth gain per adventure a level 3 party using a healing potion is more expensive than a level 15 part resurrecting someone

[Naanomi]

That's why smart high level monsters steal or destroy bodies

[MaxWilson]

Honestly, that feels like way too much gold. You could basically pay for an army with that kind of cash. Like, thousands of soldiers plus equipment and pay.

I agree. The game is better if you reduce the amount of treasure you hand out. The official DMG guidelines are crazy high.

<soapbox>

It's also bizarre that they are based purely on CR. Bring back treasure types as a monster statistic distinct from challenge rating!

</soapbox>


Well yeah. Not the biggest army, mind you, but a CR 17 creature is a threat on a country-wide level, so they can get that kind of money.

Or it's just a big dumb Goristro.

[AdAstra]

Buying an army is also buying commanders and support companys.
You buy it as a package from the logistics and HR companies.

Certainly, certainly, once you get into the weeds an army is no easy matter. Realistically, once you're talking about armies you're talking about bulk purchase of rations, ammo, weapons, animals, and of course plenty of untrained hirelings and experts to keep everyone and everything in good shape, not just simple gp per day. A DM has no obligation to make that available.

But it's just as easy (from a DM perspective) for there to be a shortage of large diamonds. If it's impossible to find diamonds worth more than 500 gp, then everything but Revivify or True Resurrection is impossible.

[MaxWilson]

That's why smart high level monsters steal or destroy bodies

Smart players do too. But how often have you actually seen it happen? Do your players really burn monster bodies to prevent their eventual resurrection by forces inimical to the PCs?

Sigh.

[AdAstra]

Smart players do too. But how often have you actually seen it happen? Do your players really burn monster bodies to prevent their eventual resurrection by forces inimical to the PCs?

Sigh.

We've done things like that, though typically only in Curse of Strahd. Goddamn Prince Incel loves his zombies too much.

Burn the bodies, then break up the bones, then burn the bone fragments, then throw it all in the nearest body of water or bury it in a hole.

[Naanomi]

Smart players do too. But how often have you actually seen it happen? Do your players really burn monster bodies to prevent their eventual resurrection by forces inimical to the PCs?

Sigh.
Um... yes? Any enemy that appears to be worth the investment in resurrecting (common mooks and the like not so much). If they don't already, one returning villain should be all it takes to change those habits; and important villains with their bodies left lying around in settings where resurrection is accessible should return in some capacity.

The challenge is what to do when the enemy body is *valuable*... we killed a dragon once and sold its parts, only to have it come back from a bit we sold pretty angry about the whole affair.

My party has a bag of devouring we acquired for just such purposes

[Unoriginal]

Or it's just a big dumb Goristro.

A Goristro is a threat on a country level. They might not be the sharpest, but nobody laugh when one of them find a Frost Giant tribe or an orc warband or a Minotaur cult and take over by virtue of sheer power and decent charisma.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Also, I can level up as a player? Why has no one told me this before?

There are benefits of player experience. Among them are the ability to recognize a monster based on the DMs description and the ability to recall the monster's resistances, immunities, vulnerabilities, and strong/weak saves. This is why I don't get agitated when a veteran player says things that others may label as "metagaming."

Rookies probably don't know to use fire and acid vs trolls, or that skeletons are vulnerable to bludgeoning, or that animals have generally poor saves vs INT.

I want to reward veterans and minimize table talk about things in a fantasy world, "would my character know..." Your character knows because you know, ya know? They know because you are not a 1st level player no matter what level your character is.

So that's how you level as a player in the game and as a player with a particular DM.


Adventuring is easy, feeding and transporting 5000 people is hard.
Also not the fun most players are looking for, or the game most DMs want to run. And the UA "When Armies Clash" was not well received or much in use.

[AdAstra]

A Goristro is a threat on a country level. They might not be the sharpest, but nobody laugh when one of them find a Frost Giant tribe or an orc warband or a Minotaur cult and take over by virtue of sheer power and decent charisma.

If so, then it should be a lot easier for a country to fight off country-level monster attacks, given that you could outfit a pretty hefty military unit for the money you get from slaying one. Unless of course there's nothing to buy with that gold, in which case, woo, fantasy inflation!

If not, forget taxes, just have the army slay monsters all day.

[Daracaex]

Death need not be the only stake. In fact, to me, the story often feels more impactful if death isn't the main stake.

While true, it's also difficult and tiring to have every adventure and plotline be like this. While I think it should rarely be the main stake, having characters putting actually putting their lives on the line (and it meaning something) enhances the things they're fighting for.

[Democratus]

But it's just as easy (from a DM perspective) for there to be a shortage of large diamonds. If it's impossible to find diamonds worth more than 500 gp, then everything but Revivify or True Resurrection is impossible.

I wonder if you could have one character sell a diamond to another character for 500gp. Thereby inherently making it a 500gp diamond.

Or what if you took a tiny diamond but then had a famous celebrity wear it to a gala - increasing the value to >500gp.

What exactly is it that determines the worth of a diamond in D&D?

[Naanomi]

What exactly is it that determines the worth of a diamond in D&D?
Probably fundamental rules of the cosmology, magic, or the action of some God or another; just like anything else ;)

And one never has to worry about local level inflation for very long; big sums of wealth eventually get cycled off Plane eventually, and scarcity is all local in an infinite cosmos anyways

[Democratus]

I'm now hatching a scheme to open a jewelry store that sells tiny diamonds to the famous and powerful. Then...arrange the very public assassination of said characters.

The diamonds will increase drastically in value as collectors vie to possess them. :smallcool:

[MaxWilson]

A Goristro is a threat on a country level. They might not be the sharpest, but nobody laugh when one of them find a Frost Giant tribe or an orc warband or a Minotaur cult and take over by virtue of sheer power and decent charisma.

I would laugh in disbelief if a single Goristro took over a whole Frost Giant tribe (say, forty Frost Giants plus children), let alone a whole nation of hundreds of thousands to millions of tool-using humans.

I would expect any halfway tactically savvy players to laugh in disbelief too.

It could terrorize a village pretty well though, until a platoon of 40 brave soldiers, a company of 120 typical soldiers, four Frost Giants, or a group of four 7th level PCs or NPCs comes along and kills it.

[Unoriginal]

If so, then it should be a lot easier for a country to fight off country-level monster attacks, given that you could outfit a pretty hefty military unit for the money you get from slaying one. Unless of course there's nothing to buy with that gold, in which case, woo, fantasy inflation!

If not, forget taxes, just have the army slay monsters all day.

...What are you even talking about? The amount of money a country has and earn is far, far more than one 150,000 gold pieces payday. Though the country's riches aren't going to be solely in cash and gems (tbf, I don't think the hoard should be, either).

The cost of maintenance for ONE large castle for one year is 146,000 gold pieces. Without an army to defend it, mind.



I would laugh in disbelief if a single Goristro took over a whole Frost Giant tribe (say, forty Frost Giants plus children), let alone a whole nation of hundreds of thousands to millions of tool-using humans.

Oh it wouldn't take over a whole nation of hundreds of thousands to millions of tool-using humans. It would burn it to the ground with their Frost Giant goons (or orcs, or Minotaurs, or...) who think it's pretty awesome to go and kill humans.



I would expect any halfway tactically savvy players to laugh in disbelief too.

I would expect dumb players to laugh, and any halfway tacticalyl savvy players to assess the threat rationally and come up with a plan to destroy it and its nascent horde.



It could terrorize a village pretty well though

It can eat several villages on its own, so you're technically correct.



until a platoon of 40 brave soldiers, a company of 120 typical soldiers

Unlikely to work. Still have a chance, though.



four Frost Giants

More likely to work, though not if the Goristro has goons at that point.



or a group of four 7th level PCs or NPCs comes along and kills it.

Now we're talking. Four 7th heroes vs a lone Goristro can certainly win by exploiting the fiend's weaknesses, which would make for an epic tale.

[MaxWilson]

Unlikely to work. Still have a chance, though.

It's unlikely for the Goristro to survive.

The Goristro takes ~88 DPR per round from 120 light crossbows attacking at +3 for d8+1 damage after accounting for damage resistance, so it is likely to kill less than a dozen of the company of soldiers before it dies. (The brave soldiers have worse odds with only 40 crossbows, which is why they have to be brave, and cunning, which probably involves some form of spreading out so that it has trouble attacking more than one soldier per round, and they will take more casualties than the company will.)


Now we're talking. Four 7th heroes vs a lone Goristro can certainly win by exploiting the fiend's weaknesses, which would make for an epic tale.

And now a group of 7th level PCs has an enormous pile of cash (plus magic items) which the Goristro had in its hoard just because it was beefy. I don't buy it. Why would a Goristro have more cash than a Mind Flayer or an Annis Hag?

I don't like the DMG's simplistic approach to treasure tables. It's halfway there, but treasure shouldn't be based on CR, it needs to be based on actual monster properties such as proclivity and ability to hoard various sorts of objects, i.e. treasure types.

[AdAstra]

...What are you even talking about? The amount of money a country has and earn is far, far more than one 150,000 gold pieces payday. Though the country's riches aren't going to be solely in cash and gems (tbf, I don't think the hoard should be, either).

The cost of maintenance for ONE large castle for one year is 146,000 gold pieces. Without an army to defend it, mind.


I said kill monsters all day, not kill one monster. Now if CR 17 monsters are more of a once-in-a-hundred-years sort of threat, then it's not a viable source of income, but considering how monster-filled the DnD universe is, you can probably find enough to sustain the sorts of projects governments do.

Of course, in most cases a monster's hoard is stuff stolen from people, so you wouldn't be really gaining a true profit from killing monsters in your own borders. On the other hand, you could always do other nations the wonderful "service" of ridding them of those pesky monsters. Sure, you might summon more into their territory every so often to keep the numbers up, but who pays attention to that.

[KorvinStarmast]

Do your players really have that much cash sitting around that it isn't a big deal to just lose 1000gp? Even in high level campaigns I've never had that much cash available to just lose 1000gp. When I get a lot of cash I tend to buy gems needed for spell components that use them. (We are heading to a regional commerce center during our next session, and I'll get getting a 300 GP diamond for Revivify to keep handy.

[Torpin]

high level adventures are gonna be amongst the richest people in your world. and while a 500g diamond may seem really expensive, its equivalent of a $32000 diamond, that shouldnt be that hard to come by

[Unoriginal]

It's unlikely for the Goristro to survive.

The Goristro takes ~88 DPR per round from 120 light crossbows attacking at +3 for d8+1 damage after accounting for damage resistance, so it is likely to kill less than a dozen of the company of soldiers before it dies.

Ah yes, the good ol' hectoPeasant. It's ignoring a lot of things, like terrain, morale, and the like.

Yes, I admit, 120 common soldiers with an exceptional commander who can coordinate and make them hold the line can defeat a Goristro, if in open plain and the Goristro doing nothing but charge and attacks.

But while the Goristro is dumb, they're not unwise. They can go in the wilderness (forest, swamp, lake, etc) and force the troops to spread to search them, and pick the scouts and soldiers that comes close one by one (or three by three) with sadistic pleasure while waiting for the army to be forced to make camp. Then they can attack while most of the soldiers won't be ready

Or they can stay in the village, which limits the soldiers' line of sight while the Goristro can literally collapse buildings on them.


In any case, my statement was that a CR 17 creature was a country-wide threat, not that it was single-handedly a threat. CR 17 sapient creatures are dangerous because they're tough enough to gather powerful underlings. Even Goristros can do it, as there quite a few beings who end up entangled with demons one way or another and who respect brute force (notably, Giants and Orcs who have forsaken their gods, Minotaurs and Gnolls). In fact there is a minor sidequest in Dungeon of the Mad Mage based around this, with a mage trying to summon a Goristro to take over a minotaur tribe. Of course in a 100-and-something-people vs a single CR 17 monster in featureless white box scenario where both sides do nothing but attack with all they got, the 100+ soldiers win.



And now a group of 7th level PCs has an enormous pile of cash (plus magic items). I don't buy it.

Well 1) a Goristro alone terrorizing the countryside likely doesn't have their hoards with them, if they have any.

2) If the Goristro does have a hoard, now the PCs have to defend said enormous pile of cash plus magic items from everyone else who wants it. Which can be an adventure in itself.



I don't like the DMG's simplistic approach to treasure tables.

More than fair.



It's halfway there, but treasure shouldn't be based on CR, it needs to be based on actual monster properties such as proclivity and ability to hoard various sorts of objects, i.e. treasure types.

Fair. Though if I recall correctly the DMG says not every monster has a hoard. Might be wrong, though.

[Naanomi]

How much of the Goristro‘s horde is the value of chopping up his corpse to sell exotic fiend parts to alchemists and artificers?

[GrayDeath]

If you're killing off players instead of PCs, I'll pass at playing at your table.

Also, I can level up as a player? Why has no one told me thisbefore?

Indeed, lets hope you buried them well.

But that aside, 5th Ed allows real world levels to count?
Tell me more!

[Unoriginal]

How much of the Goristro‘s horde is the value of chopping up his corpse to sell exotic fiend parts to alchemists and artificers?

In the Material Plane? 0%. The Goristro's corpse disolves into uselessness after death.

[MaxWilson]

In the Material Plane? 0%. The Goristro's corpse disolves into uselessness after death.

Except on Eberron, if the Goristro is born of Khyber.

[Naanomi]

In the Material Plane? 0%. The Goristro's corpse disolves into uselessness after death.
That just means you got to go get it in its home to get the full value

But more seriously, true on the Outsiders... but I’d bet a fair chunk of a lot of other monsters’ value is in their bits

[nickl_2000]

Indeed, lets hope you buried them well.

But that aside, 5th Ed allows real world levels to count?
Tell me more!

Yes, but the DM doesn't give XP for story or Roleplaying. Only for killing your enemies.

[MaxWilson]

Yes, but the DM doesn't give XP for story or Roleplaying. Only for killing your enemies.

Hence the thread title.

[Unoriginal]

Except on Eberron, if the Goristro is born of Khyber.

True. The planar influence sure is wonky in Eberron's Crystal Sphere.

[Pex]

It's not the DM's job to kill PCs. If no PC dies during an adventure you're not doing it wrong. If one PC dies every adventure, it's not really fair for me to say you're doing it wrong, but I have once quit a campaign because of it. Maybe it's BadWrongFunism, but I will say it is bad DMing to be doing it on purpose.

On the other side players shouldn't be callous about their character's death. They shouldn't be doing dumb things knowing their PC could die because they'll be raised as a cost of doing business.

[Naanomi]

On the other side players shouldn't be callous about their character's death. They shouldn't be doing dumb things knowing their PC could die because they'll be raised as a cost of doing business.
But that is half the fun of a Zealot Barbarian :smallbiggrin:

[loki_ragnarock]

You know, the spell calls for a diamond of at least 500gp value.

Which makes me think that any diamond of high enough quality to qualify as being worth 500gp might actually be automatically worth quite a great deal more, as it's value is now literally life and death.

Inspired by American healthcare, a diamond that should only cost you 500gp might have a couple of zeroes tacked on the end just by virtue of what it's actually getting you. Why would the genuinely wealthy *not* hoard such treasures away as an insurance policy for their untimely end in bidding wars that drive up the price to astronomical levels? Why wouldn't an international cartel of deep pocketed supervillains ensure that they have full control of the lucrative diamond trade as a means of both controlling who gets to live in perpetuity and to line their pockets with wealth unimaginable? Why would you ever find a diamond that's only worth 500gp when once it's across that threshold it could well be worth 5,000 or 50,000 or whatever a grieving person of means would pay to bring back their only son and heir? Who can effectively barter with the forces that can literally reverse death?

I mean, the world building just writes itself.

If you want to make it so that resurrection has a cost, introduce that model for the diamond trade. The PCs either need to enact a daring heist from those wealthy enough to have (and protect!) such insurance policies, or cross a powerful international cartel that will come after them for daring to shoulder into their turf, or both.

499 gp diamonds? Basically garbage. Grind them down for powder or garish jewelry. 500gp diamonds? Way more valuable than 500gp. Not that the cartel that controls the diamond trade would actually give you the price they charge people for diamonds if the PCs found some they wanted to sell. Undercutting the cartel is a good way to get your knees undercut right back.


Have fun with it.

[Naanomi]

You know, the spell calls for a diamond of at least 500gp value.
Planar Travel adds interesting wrinkles to this idea as well...

Just how big does a diamond have to be to actually be worth 500g when there are spots on the Elemental Plane of Earth with diamonds the size of continents and you have to keep throwing them out of your boots every time you walk around?

[loki_ragnarock]

Planar Travel adds interesting wrinkles to this idea as well...

Just how big does a diamond have to be to actually be worth 500g when there are spots on the Elemental Plane of Earth with diamonds the size of continents and you have to keep throwing them out of your boots every time you walk around?

It might not even be size that determines it's value in the mundane or eldritch markets. It might be clarity. Or cut. Or fire, which I think I heard a diamond salesman say once. Diamond in the rough might be literally worthless until polished.

But yeah, if the PCs are snorting diamond dust for revivify who can really say what the metrics of value are, really.

[AdAstra]

At least in the modern gem market, the vast majority of diamonds are considered not nearly as valuable for a myriad of reasons. There's actually quite a lot of diamond in the world, but because of both international cartels and the low quality of most, gem-quality diamonds are far rarer (a lot of that is still the cartels, though).

Basically, for a proper, valuable diamond, you've got some primary factors:
-Clarity- If the diamond's got too much crap in it, it's basically worthless from a gemstone perspective.

-Color- Some colors are more valuable, others less. Brown diamonds are actually the most common, and are generally not valued highly, though they've occasionally been marketed as chocolate diamonds. Colors like red are absurdly rare and correspondingly expensive. And even within a color there are variations that can change the value, such as with colorless diamonds, which can have different amounts of colorlessness.

-Size- It's pretty much exponential, since bigger diamonds get progressively rarer. Diamond dust, on the other hand, isn't going to be nearly as expensive, especially since you can get it as a byproduct from normal processing. 100 gp of diamond dust probably outmasses a diamond worth 1000 gp.

-Processing- There are many ways to cut a stone, and there are also processes to change the qualities of an existing diamond. Such alterations generally result in a reduced value compared to a diamond that's "naturally" that way. Cut on the other hand, affects how the diamond looks, especially how it reflects the light, and ironically isn't just something you can just do better, because it's affected by the internal structure of the diamond (though the cutter's skill matters a lot). External structure of the rough diamond also tends to affect the cut chosen, due to wanting to preserve as large an end product as possible and avoid internal imperfections. Cut is actually considered one of the most important aspects in a diamond's cost.

So a diamond could be absolutely huge, but if it basically looks like a rock, then it'll probably end up priced like one.

[heavyfuel]

Do your players really have that much cash sitting around that it isn't a big deal to just lose 1000gp? Even in high level campaigns I've never had that much cash available to just lose 1000gp.

Had this happen once. The DM had a strict "no buying magic items" rule in place.

By the time we reached level 9 or so, we had so much cash and so little use for it. When one of the PCs died, we were almost celebrating having a reason to spend our money

[Naanomi]

At
-Processing- There are many ways to cut a stone, and there are also processes to change the qualities of an existing diamond. Such alterations generally result in a reduced value compared to a diamond that's "naturally" that way. Cut on the other hand, affects how the diamond looks, especially how it reflects the light, and ironically isn't just something you can just do better, because it's affected by the internal structure of the diamond (though the cutter's skill matters a lot). External structure of the rough diamond also tends to affect the cut chosen, due to wanting to preserve as large an end product as possible and avoid internal imperfections. Cut is actually considered one of the most important aspects in a diamond's cost.
The simplified crafting rules of this edition make this one easy: it takes 500gp in 'raw materials' to make a 1000gp cut gem; no more no less

[MaxWilson]

The simplified crafting rules of this edition make this one easy: it takes 500gp in 'raw materials' to make a 1000gp cut gem; no more no less

Other ways to abuse the crafting rules:

"Mommy, where do babies come from?"

"Well sweetie, first you need a stork with proficiency in Babysmith's Tools and about 14 lb. of raw organic materials..."

[Torpin]

On the other side players shouldn't be callous about their character's death. They shouldn't be doing dumb things knowing their PC could die because they'll be raised as a cost of doing business.

why not, i had a one of my players cut off a toe gave it to the cleric, snuck into the abyss, get the required inforation, kill themselves, then get ressurected by the cleric from the toe

[Pex]

But that is half the fun of a Zealot Barbarian :smallbiggrin:

Exception noted. Point goes to you.


why not, i had a one of my players cut off a toe gave it to the cleric, snuck into the abyss, get the required inforation, kill themselves, then get ressurected by the cleric from the toe

I said "callous", not out of the box thinking strategic planning.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Conversely, my party is at 18th level now, the truly terrifying ways we can be killed leave traditional resurrection off the table.

If we had a cleric, this would be a different story, money is no issue. Money hasn't been an issue for a long long time, we have hired help to run a business out of our base of operation (we honestly could run several, perhaps we could buy shares in all of our neighbors business) and we come home from most of our adventures making a gigantic profit compared to what we spend in preparation.

So yeah, a character death at our level would be pretty traumatic but unless we all die with no bodies, not likely permanent.

[Torpin]

I said "callous", not out of the box thinking strategic planning.

why not be callous, at that point its no different than losing a limb, being dominated possessed, blinded...etc cause you can undo it

[Witty Username]

I meant the more pointless money and access to resurrection, the more players characters should die to keep tension. Or throw in the odd disintegrate at the party, no body no coming back.

Is this a observation or a value judgement? If observation i would say depends on the wealth of the party, availability of diamonds, need of other expenses, etc.

If value judgement, creating barriers to resurrection: chance of failure, increasing the age of the caster, diminishing returns, level loss or permanent ability damage for death, all can make death more impactful depending on the tone of your game.

Sidenote, Gnomes and Dragons make for the best diamond monopolies.

[Naanomi]

I Sidenote, Gnomes and Dragons make for the best diamond monopolies
Dao Djinn come to mind

[Pex]

why not be callous, at that point its no different than losing a limb, being dominated possessed, blinded...etc cause you can undo it

Because that's why DMs respond with making raising from the dead nearly impossible, cost too much, or outright ban it. It goes both ways. DMs should not be purposely killing PCs at the same time players should care about their characters and the DM's effort in creating and running the game by not treating the game as a glorified boardgame or videogame where you respawn to try again.

It's mutual respect.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

Fair. Though if I recall correctly the DMG says not every monster has a hoard. Might be wrong, though.

This, Unless that monster had a reason to have a hoard they don't. A Treasure Hoard table helps you randomly determine the contents of a large cache of treasure, the accumulated wealth of a large group of creatures (such as an orc tribe or a hobgoblin army), the belongings of a single powerful creature that likes to hoard treasure (such as a dragon), or the reward bestowed upon a party after completing a quest for a benefactor. You can also split up a treasure hoard so that the adventurers don't find or receive it all at once.

Emphasis mine. Undead (sans liches), elementals, constructs, Monstrosities, celestials, basically have no need for a hoard. Depending on your setting even fiends and aberrations might not have a hoard of treasure.

[Unoriginal]

This, Unless that monster had a reason to have a hoard they don't. A Treasure Hoard table helps you randomly determine the contents of a large cache of treasure, the accumulated wealth of a large group of creatures (such as an orc tribe or a hobgoblin army), the belongings of a single powerful creature that likes to hoard treasure (such as a dragon), or the reward bestowed upon a party after completing a quest for a benefactor. You can also split up a treasure hoard so that the adventurers don't find or receive it all at once.

Emphasis mine. Undead (sans liches), elementals, constructs, Monstrosities, celestials, basically have no need for a hoard. Depending on your setting even fiends and aberrations might not have a hoard of treasure.

Thanks for finding and quoting the relevant passage.

The "you can also split up a treasure hoard so that the adventurers don't find or receive it all at once" part is important, too.

[Tempist]

Had this happen once. The DM had a strict "no buying magic items" rule in place.

By the time we reached level 9 or so, we had so much cash and so little use for it. When one of the PCs died, we were almost celebrating having a reason to spend our money

That sounds silly, honestly. Past a certain point of wealth, and especially if you're visiting some prosperous city, it would be unreasonable to not expect to find some shop that would be more than happy to sell you some magic items. If anything, it's expected in most settings.

Were you maybe playing in a low magic campaign?

[Unoriginal]

That sounds silly, honestly. Past a certain point of wealth, and especially if you're visiting some prosperous city, it would be unreasonable to not expect to find some shop that would be more than happy to sell you some magic items. If anything, it's expected in most settings.

Were you maybe playing in a low magic campaign?

Even without shops, there are individuals out here who likely prefer money to the magic items they have.


That being said, I'm always puzzled by the "there is nothing to spend cash on" thing. Do people have their PCs just refuse to live as filthy rich folks?

[kazaryu]

Emphasis mine. Undead (sans liches), elementals, constructs, Monstrosities, celestials, basically have no need for a hoard. Depending on your setting even fiends and aberrations might not have a hoard of treasure.

Tbf, the planar ally spell has you pay the summoned ally in gold in exchange for their service. Now, idk what they do with tjat gold. But it definitely hints at outsiders also valuing treasure from the material plane in some capacity

[heavyfuel]

That sounds silly, honestly. Past a certain point of wealth, and especially if you're visiting some prosperous city, it would be unreasonable to not expect to find some shop that would be more than happy to sell you some magic items. If anything, it's expected in most settings.

Were you maybe playing in a low magic campaign?

Not really low-magic, we did have a few magic items we got as loot, but the campaing was set in a world truly devastated by war. No big cities, only small settlements of survivors. We could only find Common magic items to buy.

It was one of our first 5e games, so when the DMG said magic items were optional, it was reasonable to not allow full access to them as we were still getting used to the system.

[Democratus]

That being said, I'm always puzzled by the "there is nothing to spend cash on" thing. Do people have their PCs just refuse to live as filthy rich folks?

This is one of the funny thing's we talk about around the table. Your typical high level character is swimming in gold but still insists on living like a monk. "No thanks, I'll just camp out in the barn behind the inn."

[heavyfuel]

That being said, I'm always puzzled by the "there is nothing to spend cash on" thing. Do people have their PCs just refuse to live as filthy rich folks?


This is one of the funny thing's we talk about around the table. Your typical high level character is swimming in gold but still insists on living like a monk. "No thanks, I'll just camp out in the barn behind the inn."

Well, a night in an Inn spent like a king costs... what? 2gp?

If you're travelling all around on a quest and you spend very few nights in civilization you might spend a whole 200gp on inns over the course of the campaign. That's still nothing.

Hireing servants is a no go as they'd all die the second you have a random encounter and then you'll be stuck having to deal with that.

This specific campaign did end with the characters retiring to wealthy lives as lords, but we couldn't exactly do that while still adventuring.

[Tanarii]

That sounds silly, honestly. Past a certain point of wealth, and especially if you're visiting some prosperous city, it would be unreasonable to not expect to find some shop that would be more than happy to sell you some magic items. If anything, it's expected in most settings.
It couldn't be a 'shop'. It'd have to be a bank vault or effectively armed and armored fortress. It'd be like finding a gem or jewelry 'store'. Totally anachronistic. Except maybe for a small handful of common items / 10gp gems.

Don't get me wrong. The XTGe downtime rules aren't too bad. Your character spends at least a week nosing around and finds some sellers. It's merely the idea of a 'shop' that I don't like. :smallwink:

[Naanomi]

A magic shop works for me... in a very specific context. Finding one in the fantasy equivalent of Atlantis, the seat is the great wizard school, or somewhere exotic in the Planes like Sigil can add to the... ‘wow now *these* guys use magic!’ feel to a place when they are not in every corner before then.

They make a good setting piece for such places, or even make an adventure out of finding the ‘shop’ to begin with

[ProsecutorGodot]

It couldn't be a 'shop'. It'd have to be a bank vault or effectively armed and armored fortress. It'd be like finding a gem or jewelry 'store'. Totally anachronistic. Except maybe for a small handful of common items / 10gp gems.

Don't get me wrong. The XTGe downtime rules aren't too bad. Your character spends at least a week nosing around and finds some sellers. It's merely the idea of a 'shop' that I don't like. :smallwink:

We run it as a shop in our setting but the higher level we get the less realistic it is for me to understand how the man hasn't been robbed. We as the players know that the shop owner is a disguised high level wizard (it's been implied that this is a cover that Mordenkainen uses when he visits Waterdeep) but he runs the shop alone. We're friendly with him, but we're not the only capable people in the city, and many of the rest aren't well meaning like we are.

Although, we never really questioned how we found him, it took a very high roll and a lot of money. Perhaps I'm just ignorant of how well defended/hidden he is.

If I did it again, I wouldn't portray a surface level magic item shop. If they have anything in stock worth anything you can get they're in league with big people or big people should be after them. In the future I'd avoid keeping anything other than common and a few uncommon items outside of high security vaults or auctions.

[Unoriginal]

Well, a night in an Inn spent like a king costs... what? 2gp?

If you're travelling all around on a quest and you spend very few nights in civilization you might spend a whole 200gp on inns over the course of the campaign. That's still nothing.

Hireing servants is a no go as they'd all die the second you have a random encounter and then you'll be stuck having to deal with that.

This specific campaign did end with the characters retiring to wealthy lives as lords, but we couldn't exactly do that while still adventuring.

Then why not invest in a grand home with tons of servants who stay away from the adventuring, while still going on adventures?

Of course it might be that 5e more or less accidentally explores how greed and materialism are ultimately meaningless and unfulfilling when they are goals in themselves. Which to be fair is a common pattern in dragon stories, and "Dragons" is half of the game's name.

Now it's fine if the PCs are just heroes doing what's right by opposing bad guys or if they want intangible things like glory, I'm just confused as to why PCs bother gathering gold and loot if they're not interested in living like rich people nor have goals requiring money to accomplish (cue two Bard/Paladins of the Blue Brotherhood, on a mission to save the orphanage).

[AdAstra]

Then why not invest in a grand home with tons of servants who stay away from the adventuring, while still going on adventures?

Of course it might be that 5e more or less accidentally explores how greed and materialism are ultimately meaningless and unfulfilling when they are goals in themselves. Which to be fair is a common pattern in dragon stories, and "Dragons" is half of the game's name.

Now it's fine if the PCs are just heroes doing what's right by opposing bad guys or if they want intangible things like glory, I'm just confused as to why PCs bother gathering gold and loot if they're not interested in living like rich people nor have goals requiring money to accomplish (cue two Bard/Paladins of the Blue Brotherhood, on a mission to save the orphanage).

Interesting point about how 5e almost discourages materialism! In 3e, or games run like 3e expected you to, gold was obviously a very important part of progression, where you spent it on stuff you needed to be appropriately prepared for your adventures. But even outside of magic items, gold has its uses.

-Bribes- Be it paying off a guard to turn a blind eye, or offering the king some "gifts" to smooth over the diplomatic process.

-Mercenaries- Not many people are interested in this sort of thing, but it's a real possibility for your adventuring party to effectively become a small army depending on how much treasure your DM hands out. Even if you only hire a couple people, the treasure you find can be used to make sure those people are the best available.

-Quest Giving- Sure, you may not be able to purchase magic items in a shop, but it may well be possible to hire someone else to get them for you. Of course, most people are more into actually adventuring for those things, but nothing stops you from getting someone else to do the grunt-work.

[loki_ragnarock]

Then why not invest in a grand home with tons of servants who stay away from the adventuring, while still going on adventures?


"Have you seen the property tax rates in Thay? And don't even get me started on the payroll taxes for servants. Sure, *they* only get the unskilled laborer rate, but the government takes way more than that. And that's before mandatory one size fits all insurance that doesn't account for my warforged and golem servants being immune to disease!
It's enough to make one a traveling hermit that randomly murders entities in the communities they pass through!"
- Elion the Exasperated, Red Wizard Homeowner, probably.

[Naanomi]

3e trained players to live like selfish ascetic monks no matter how wealthy you were... every gold you spent on a room at the inn or donated to an orphanage was purposely hamstringing yourself from the ‘expected WBL’ magic items; like cutting off your own hand for RP reasons: sure it may be cool and make sense in the right circumstances, but doesn’t make a lot of gaming sense

[MaxWilson]

We run it as a shop in our setting but the higher level we get the less realistic it is for me to understand how the man hasn't been robbed. We as the players know that the shop owner is a disguised high level wizard (it's been implied that this is a cover that Mordenkainen uses when he visits Waterdeep) but he runs the shop alone. We're friendly with him, but we're not the only capable people in the city, and many of the rest aren't well meaning like we are.

Although, we never really questioned how we found him, it took a very high roll and a lot of money. Perhaps I'm just ignorant of how well defended/hidden he is.

If I did it again, I wouldn't portray a surface level magic item shop. If they have anything in stock worth anything you can get they're in league with big people or big people should be after them. In the future I'd avoid keeping anything other than common and a few uncommon items outside of high security vaults or auctions.

Yeah, makes more sense to have a broker than a shop.

[KorvinStarmast]

Interesting point about how 5e almost discourages materialism! I like this. I dislike WBL and I dislike the item hunt in most of the CRPGs I have played. Also: monks. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, makes more sense to have a broker than a shop. That's how I run it, and how my first 5e DM ran it. A broker usually starts his sales effort with
"I know a guy..."
or
"I act on behalf of my {rich} client. She may be able to ..."
(One of the rich clients is in fact a demon lord, but that's beside the point)

[Witty Username]

magic items I always thought make more sense as commissions than as window shopping, given the expense and time to make even a few magic items at least beyond uncommon. your not going to find an item that takes 30 years to make, as a general rule.

[Chauncymancer]

That sounds silly, honestly. Past a certain point of wealth, and especially if you're visiting some prosperous city, it would be unreasonable to not expect to find some shop that would be more than happy to sell you some magic items. If anything, it's expected in most settings.

Were you maybe playing in a low magic campaign?
I think the issue is that we never quite get an equivalent for uncommon rarity in real life. Based on all the hoops 5e describes, I think the items we should be comparing magic items to are things like cruise ships, 747s, aircraft carriers, intercontinental nuclear missiles, and space shuttles. These things all cost money, so there must exist someone you can pay to build them, but there's not a space ship store in my city, and I don't know that any of the downtown skyscrapers are for sale. A common magic item is more like a tank, or a guitar played by Jimmie Hendrix, or a meteorite. There's almost certainly someone who owns one in your region, but no way to open a store that sells them.

[Torpin]

Because that's why DMs respond with making raising from the dead nearly impossible, cost too much, or outright ban it. It goes both ways. DMs should not be purposely killing PCs at the same time players should care about their characters and the DM's effort in creating and running the game by not treating the game as a glorified boardgame or videogame where you respawn to try again.

It's mutual respect.

so I shouldnt do it because some DMs make it harder? I shouldnt use a readily available resource that has always been in every dungeons and dragons edition ever cause some dms homebrew that its not available? in fact its easier and less costly now than its ever been, you get a temporary penalty to some roles, you dont lose levels or exp, you dont have a cap at how many times you can be brought back, you never explained why death is a big deal at high level. its able to be undone with a spell and some components please explain why thats a big deal. you are stuck on a real world view of death and its permanence. think of people you know, do you not know a single person who wouldnt live a much more dangerous life if they new they could always be brought back from the dead. if it was an option to come back in a fresh body you bet if take of my parachute mid drop

[Pex]

so I shouldnt do it because some DMs make it harder? I shouldnt use a readily available resource that has always been in every dungeons and dragons edition ever cause some dms homebrew that its not available? in fact its easier and less costly now than its ever been, you get a temporary penalty to some roles, you dont lose levels or exp, you dont have a cap at how many times you can be brought back, you never explained why death is a big deal at high level. its able to be undone with a spell and some components please explain why thats a big deal. you are stuck on a real world view of death and its permanence. think of people you know, do you not know a single person who wouldnt live a much more dangerous life if they new they could always be brought back from the dead. if it was an option to come back in a fresh body you bet if take of my parachute mid drop

Not if you care about verisimilitude and the story part of the game. If it's all a glorified boardgame of moving meeples using worker placement and resource management have at it. When there's empathy about the gameworld and your own character, character life has more meaning.

[heavyfuel]

Then why not invest in a grand home with tons of servants who stay away from the adventuring, while still going on adventures?

Because it makes no sense to do that while you're travelling across a continent.

Yeah, I can hire a bunch of masons to build me a mansion, but I'm not coming back to this neck of the woods any time soon, so why bother? If I do come back, it'll only be for a couple of days, so a luxury stay at an inn makes far more sense.

Like I said, we did eventually retire to a life of luxury as lords, but this was when the adventuring part was truly over.

[Tanarii]

you are stuck on a real world view of death and its permanence. think of people you know, do you not know a single person who wouldnt live a much more dangerous life if they new they could always be brought back from the dead. if it was an option to come back in a fresh body you bet if take of my parachute mid drop
We as players don't feel the physical pain involved when a character dies. Personally I probably wouldn't risk it (much more than I do now) after I'd felt that first not very clean death.

Of course, I also couldn't afford a Raise Dead anyway. :smallamused:

[ProsecutorGodot]

We as players don't feel the physical pain involved when a character dies. Personally I probably wouldn't risk it (much more than I do now) after I'd felt that first not very clean death.

Of course, I also couldn't afford a Raise Dead anyway. :smallamused:

I used that as part of my redemption paladins background, he has been killed once before and now he's pretty adamant about not wanting those around him to experience that.

He is of course ready to deal with it if they do but prevention is the goal, having to deal with it is a consequence of failure.

[Trask]

One thing I find is often overlooked is the stipulation in Raise Dead and Resurrection that the resurrected target cannot be undead. It doesn't have that stipulation in True Resurrection but I think it would be easy enough to say that it does. That means your 20th level legendary hero whose made the round trip to the afterlife enough times to collect a free soda and fries on his next visit could be completely undone by one casting of Danse Macabre after he falls in battle. It also has the added benefit of adding a really solid reason why such magics are reviled, they sully the soul and make it literally irretrievable.

[Snails]

Yes, but the DM doesn't give XP for story or Roleplaying. Only for killing your enemies.

This conversation casts Player vs DM dynamics in a whole new light.

Anyone know the CR of a DM? How much XP for a single player killing the whole campaign? Do you get more or less XP if you did so on purpose versus accidentally?

[MaxWilson]

This conversation casts Player vs DM dynamics in a whole new light.

Anyone know the CR of a DM? How much XP for a single player killing the whole campaign? Do you get more or less XP if you did so on purpose versus accidentally?


Why stop at a single campaign? Remember this?

Dear Dragon:

Recently my AD&D® game character, Waldorf,
a 358th-level magic-user, created the nuclear
bomb. Due to this action, all of Greyhawk has
been utterly obliterated, except for a 3 × 4 mile
island with a castle called Castle Waldorf.
All creatures from the Monster Manuals were
destroyed due to large amounts of nuclear
fallout. All the deities work in a salt mine under
Waldorf's castle. I would greatly appreciate it if
everyone would mail their character sheets to
me so that I may tally up Waldorf's experience.
All of the game manuals and modules are now
totally false and untrue. Any profit made from
TSR's merchandise from this day onward should
be mailed to Waldorf's castle (in gold pieces, of
course).

[Unoriginal]

Why stop at a single campaign? Remember this?

Dear Dragon:

Recently my AD&D® game character, Waldorf,
a 358th-level magic-user, created the nuclear
bomb. Due to this action, all of Greyhawk has
been utterly obliterated, except for a 3 × 4 mile
island with a castle called Castle Waldorf.
All creatures from the Monster Manuals were
destroyed due to large amounts of nuclear
fallout. All the deities work in a salt mine under
Waldorf's castle. I would greatly appreciate it if
everyone would mail their character sheets to
me so that I may tally up Waldorf's experience.
All of the game manuals and modules are now
totally false and untrue. Any profit made from
TSR's merchandise from this day onward should
be mailed to Waldorf's castle (in gold pieces, of
course).

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c3/fa/52/c3fa52f7fe78c90dee5c2dba47a92dfa.jpg

[Chaos_Laicosin]

Note: I haven't read this whole thread, just the first page.

If you want death to have an impact then consider the rarity of diamonds, with the lack of automation in the diamond mining processes, and the alternative uses that exist (spellcasting) that would cause them to come up for sale on the regular market less often.
I'll give rough examples with real world money. Assuming an average weekly wage of 10 gp for a middle class person in D&D vs an average weekly wage of $800 for a middle class person IRL.
-Revivify's 300 gp diamond is equivalent to a $24000 diamond, or about 3 carats. Certainly wouldn't be found in the local hamlet, village, or corner store. Would definitely be a special order at most jewelers, a jeweler in a metropolis might be able to get one on short order. Could reasonably by worn on a ring without attracting too much attention (its about as big as your little finger nail)
-Raise Dead's 500 gp diamond is equivalent to a $40000, 4-5 carat diamond. Still not overly huge, would be a special order from the average jeweler. You'd likely have to find a high end jeweler in a metropolis if you wanted one quickly, and there would be a waiting list so you'd have to overpay to jump the queue and still wait for it to come in.
-Resurrection's 1000 gp diamond is equivalent to a $80000, 6-7 carat diamond. A notably large diamond. Would not be obtainable by the average jeweler. Would be a special order from a high end jeweler in a large metropolis, you would be on a waiting list behind local notables and nobles, you'd have to pay extra and be on the jeweler good side to jump the queue.
-True Resurrection's 25000gp diamond is equivalent to a $2 million, 28 carat diamond, a little over half the size of the Hope Diamond. One might become available every few years, you'd have to buy it at auction, you'd be competing with royalty to purchase it, and it would be well known who purchased it.

If, on the other hand, your going with multiple diamonds valued up to the above numbers then you'd have to consider whether a jeweler would sell you their entire stock of diamonds. It might seem like a great boon to sell out, but then that business gets forgotten as people go elsewhere to buy while the stock replenishes. So it might mean a near impossible persuasion check to convince someone to put their business on the line for a one time payout. Or it might be that you have to buy up the whole business at a value much higher than just the diamonds.

And then there's always the "money has weight" aspect. Do your players have a horse dedicated to packing around all their gold? If not all gold, then are the items used for barter really worth as much to the diamond seller? Does a jeweler or diamond miner have a use for 30 art pieces and a +2 sword? Would they have the means to resell it?

[DevilMcam]

There is a houserule by M. Mercer that I have seen a few tables use in wich resurection spells (aside true resurection) have a chance to fail.

I don't know the exact details of it but basically :

Revivify has a 50/50 chance of succeeding (on which zealots have advantage) chance to succeed.
Other resurection spells require a "ritual" during which offering can be made and rolls perfored to increase the likelyhood of success.
Each time you get resurected the next resurection becomes harder.
I a spell fail to resurect you you can only retry with a higher level spell untilyou die again.

[KorvinStarmast]

There is a houserule by M. Mercer that I have seen a few tables use in wich resurection spells (aside true resurection) have a chance to fail.
If you go back to the AD&D 1e Players Handbook, there is a table based on Con score. Con of 10 had a 75% chance to survive resurrection (any raise dead class of spell attempt) and a Con of 17 had a 98% chance. (18 had 100% chance). Page 12 of the AD&D 1e PHB for further details. Failure of that roll meant "character is totally dead forever. (Time to create another PC or pull in one of the spare PCs. We all usually had one or two to hand in those days ...)

Also, as a curb on raise dead being too frequently used ...

Remember that a character can never be raised from the deadlresurrected a total number of times in excess of the character’s initial constitution score. Not sure if those limits appeal to you, but it was reasonably well accepted as a constraint at every table where I played, and I don't recall anyone getting killed as often as their whole Con score.

[Naanomi]

Also, as a curb on raise dead being too frequently used ...
Not sure if those limits appeal to you, but it was reasonably well accepted as a constraint at every table where I played, and I don't recall anyone getting killed as often as their whole Con score.
Once you got down to 1-2 possible resurrections left, you often retired the character to NPC it up (assuming they got to a level where there was attachment to their continued existence)