Hypothetical Question - Which one would you pick?

[Novercalis]

Let's assume the following is all true

Stats are: 10 STR -- 16 DEX -- 20 WIS -- 15 INT -- 15 CHA -- 20 CON

-- You are a DEX BASED Cleric
-- You have 2 feats granted to you and are not changeable - Resilience & Medium Armor Mastery
-- You are level 2 and have to decide on the following level dip option now.
-- End Goal is lvl 19 Forge Domain Cleric + that 1 level dip
-- you plan to be a front melee liner
-- you are forced (for the sake of argument and derailing) at level 2 to pick the following option:

Option 1) Wizard which grants you only these 3 cantrips: Booming Blade, Minor Illusion, Shocking Grasp and 6 level 1 wizard spells into your spellbook which are: Alarm, Shield, Absorb Element, Find Familiar + 2 more.

Option 2) Warlock - Hex Blade - which grants you martial weapon to use a finesse weapon (dex modifer instead of str), also 2 cantrips (Booming Blade, Minor Illusion) and 2 level 1 spells which are only Shield & Hellish Rebuke. You are not allowed to pick any other warlock spell/cantrips, Hexblade curse.

Based on that info - which one would you pick?

[Man_Over_Game]

Let's assume the following is all true

Stats are: 10 STR -- 16 DEX -- 20 WIS -- 15 INT -- 15 CHA -- 20 CON

-- You are a DEX BASED Cleric
-- You have 2 feats granted to you and are not changeable - Resilience & Medium Armor Mastery
-- You are level 2 and have to decide on the following level dip option now.
-- End Goal is lvl 19 Forge Domain Cleric + that 1 level dip
-- you plan to be a front melee liner
-- you are forced (for the sake of argument and derailing) at level 2 to pick the following option:

Option 1) Wizard which grants you only these 3 cantrips: Booming Blade, Minor Illusion, Shocking Grasp and 6 level 1 wizard spells into your spellbook which are: Alarm, Shield, Absorb Element, Find Familiar + 2 more.

Option 2) Warlock - Hex Blade - which grants you martial weapon to use a finesse weapon (dex modifer instead of str), also 2 cantrips (Booming Blade, Minor Illusion) and 2 level 1 spells which are only Shield & Hellish Rebuke. You are not allowed to pick any other warlock spell/cantrips, Hexblade curse.

Based on that info - which one would you pick?

I mean, the question is basically "Do you want level 1 utility spells, or do you want a +1 weapon".

I'll take the spells. 1-2 damage from a weapon as a full caster isn't going to make any notable impact. Not when the damage dice of Booming Blade and Spirit Guardians are already being rolled to the point where 1-2 damage per round is something you're not going to notice.

And on the other hand, Find Familiar is more powerful than most feats just for its scouting potential and power creep. Yoink.

[NaughtyTiger]

utiltiiy over damage. (like spell-check...)

[Novercalis]

I mean, the question is basically "Do you want level 1 utility spells, or do you want a +1 weapon".

I'll take the spells. 1-2 damage from a weapon as a full caster isn't going to make any notable impact. Not when the damage dice of Booming Blade and Spirit Guardians are already being rolled to the point where 1-2 damage per round is something you're not going to notice.

And on the other hand, Find Familiar is more powerful than most feats just for its scouting potential and power creep. Yoink.

to play devil's advocate here

hypothetically - since he is a dex based, he is currently on a dagger 1d4+dex(3) upgraded to a rapier 1d8+3. That is more than just a +1. This also exclude if he decides to bless his weapon for an addtional +1. Also Hexblade Curse proficiency scale on character not on warlock as well.
Short rest, recover my 2 shield reaction spell, self utility tho but a very strong one. With a Medium Armor Mastery feat --- Half plate 15 AC + 3 dex feat + shield + Forge Blessing = 21 AC +5 shield reaction for 26 AC. Sure I can do this with a wizard but only twice a day, whereas with the warlock a potential of UP TO 6 times a day (per DMG 2 short rests are typical in an adventurer day).

anyways thank you for your answer - the familiar + touch is def a strong option to consider as well.

[Man_Over_Game]

Sure I can do this with a wizard but only twice a day, whereas with the warlock a potential of UP TO 6 times a day (per DMG 2 short rests are typical in an adventurer day).

Well, kinda.

First, that's based on someone's expectation who's never played at your table. From my experience, it's rare to get one Short Rest. Not saying that's everyone's situation, but I haven't really seen many player stories about how overpowered their casting Warlock is (without mixing in Sorcerer levels for the coffeelock combo, anyway).

Secondly, you mentioned having up to 6 spell slots based on 2 Short Rests, which seems to imply that you're basing it off of two Warlock levels, but we're limited with one. On the flipside, though, having that Wizard level means our Cleric casting isn't quite as delayed.

Thirdly, spamming Shield is nice, but after level 5 or so, you have 4 4th level spell slots that you get to have per day that you're not going to really be spending on much of anything else. You only ever need to use Shield when an enemy is about to hit you, and it defends you for the round. So on rounds that you were already safe, you don't really have anything to spend those level 1 slots on anyway. You're likely not maintaining your Concentration on Bless after a while, though.

And on Hexblade's Curse, you do make a good point, I had misunderstood and thought you were saying "No Hexblade's Curse". Even if you were using it, it's a good damage addition, I just think a lot of these benefits (bonus damage to proficiency, larger weapon size) would have more impact on a class that isn't limited to one attack per turn.



Don't get me wrong, the warlock is a decent pick, it just values weapon spam and Shield, when the alternative is "better scout than the Ranger" and "Better leveled spells". But I like complexity and utility and don't care so much about AC, so I'm not the target audience for the Hexblade or Fighter playstyles.

[Novercalis]

ohh, didn't notice it's 1 spell splot. I was reading 2 spell knowns as 2 spell slots. That big difference.
Seems a level dip into wizardry just won.

Damn, lowkey I really wanted to upgrade my weapon to a rapier too. Guess my only option now is training on down activity 250 days + 250g. (DM verified I can train a wep to proficiency).

[Unoriginal]

Honestly I don't see the point of Hexblade dip unless you go full CHA.


ohh, didn't notice it's 1 spell splot. I was reading 2 spell knowns as 2 spell slots. That big difference.
Seems a level dip into wizardry just won.

Damn, lowkey I really wanted to upgrade my weapon to a rapier too. Guess my only option now is training on down activity 250 days + 250g. (DM verified I can train a wep to proficiency).


Hrmm - Since our game hasn't started - now I gotta decide, do i wanna start with a lvl 1 wizard first then Cleric or vice versa. :p

Which Cleric Domain are you going for?

[Man_Over_Game]

Which Cleric Domain are you going for?

He's going Forge.

[Novercalis]

Trying to decide on my last 2 spells for my wizard spell book.

Currently I have:

Reaction - Absorb elements for emergency
Ritual - Alarm - doesn't consume spell slot
Ritual - Find Familiar - doesn't consume spell slot
Reaction - Shield
5th spell - ????????
6th spell - ??????????????????

No point in grabbing:

Detect Magic since that is in my cleric spell list.
Identify already included in Forge Domain
Protection from Good/Evil already in Cleric list

----

potential candidate:

Charm person (Wis Save Throw, I legit have 19 wis, +4 mod)
Sleep
Color Spray
Burning Hand

[Kemev]

Just curious, but what's the story behind medium armor + forge? I thought the level 6 and level 17 forge domain abilities were specifically tied to heavy armor.

[bid]

No point in grabbing:

Detect Magic since that is in my cleric spell list.

Well, a ritual can be cast from the spellbook. This frees up a prepared slot.

Magic missile? Not a clue how an upcast would complete your cleric spells, but hey!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Trying to decide on my last 2 spells for my wizard spell book.

Currently I have:

Reaction - Absorb elements for emergency
Ritual - Alarm - doesn't consume spell slot
Ritual - Find Familiar - doesn't consume spell slot
Reaction - Shield
5th spell - ????????
6th spell - ??????????????????

No point in grabbing:

Detect Magic since that is in my cleric spell list.
Identify already included in Forge Domain
Protection from Good/Evil already in Cleric list

----

potential candidate:

Charm person (Wis Save Throw, I legit have 19 wis, +4 mod)
Sleep
Color Spray
Burning Hand

Your Wizard spells that allow a saving throw or make an attack roll still use your Int bonus for the DC or attack bonus.

Take Comprehend Languages which is also a ritual.

Disguise Self and Feather Fall are also decent. If you want to deal damage, void saving throws and attack rolls, pick Magic Missile.

[Novercalis]

Just curious, but what's the story behind medium armor + forge? I thought the level 6 and level 17 forge domain abilities were specifically tied to heavy armor.

1) RP wise - my character doesn't want it and with Medium Armor Mastery feat - his AC still matches that of a full plate. He loses out a total of 1 AC only.

2) at level 6 - I still get the fire immunity regardless of armor type, I only miss out on the +1 AC which isnt a big deal for me.

3) at lvl 17th I miss out on the resistance to magical damage from piercing / slashing / bludgeoning. Honestly at that point in the game, almost everything is gonna have magical, so this is gonna weak and so late. Non-issue. However I still gain the immunity factor.

[Novercalis]

Well, a ritual can be cast from the spellbook. This frees up a prepared slot.

Magic missile? Not a clue how an upcast would complete your cleric spells, but hey!

This is true - I will take that into consideration.

[Novercalis]

Your Wizard spells that allow a saving throw or make an attack roll still use your Int bonus for the DC or attack bonus.

Take Comprehend Languages which is also a ritual.

Disguise Self and Feather Fall are also decent. If you want to deal damage, void saving throws and attack rolls, pick Magic Missile.

RP/Flavor wise - Language doesnt suit my character. Neither does Disguise self, technically that spell is 100% worthless on my guy. He has a pompadour and will not change or allow anyone to **** with his hair. Disguise self - he will still have the pompadour - even if it kills him, he aint changing that! Feather fall - I feel its so niche and I rather get something that I may use more than once in a campaign.