Devil is in the Details: Dealing with Devils

[blackjack50]

As a player this is the first time this has come up for me. Well the party had terrible luck (3 of 4 nat 1s and a DM role landed us in the 9 hells). We had a devil approach us and we were offered a contract since we have no realistic way to get out of where we are (we are low level). Now. We took the contract as no better option presented itself. My character is not the smartest, but per backstory and my own self I’ve been reading the contract over several times. I’ve found 1 possible loophole. It would complete the contract, BUT...only technically.

What I would like to know is...per lawful evil devils...my understanding is that they MUST follow through on their bargain. Is that correct? Technicalities are actually understood to be acceptable? Or should I expect that to be considered a violation?

[PhantomSoul]

Definitely best to check in with the DM for their perspective and/or what your character might know about Devils (or that individual) in their setting. Stereotypically, though, letter of the law makes loopholes fair game!

[Wizard_Lizard]

Devils must follow a contract to the Letter.

[Zevox]

Definitely best to check in with the DM for their perspective and/or what your character might know about Devils (or that individual) in their setting. Stereotypically, though, letter of the law makes loopholes fair game!
This. Depending on your DM, the end result could be anywhere from him having put that loophole into the contract intentionally and being happy that you noticed it, or it could be something that he didn't think of and won't be happy to have ruin his plans. Or perhaps you're misinterpreting something and he'll have to explain why your loophole doesn't work the way you think it does - since we don't know the details, can't rule that out either.

[JellyPooga]

Whilst a devil has to abide by a contract, that doesn't mean they can't interpret clauses favouring themselves, do things to force your hand and other such nefarious and devious rule bending and general chicanery. They're devils, not modrons. They're not there to stick to the letter of the law; they're there to steal your soul(s).

[Unoriginal]

As others said, only your DM knows how it works in their campaign, but in typical 5e lore and rules:


Whilst a devil has to abide by a contract, that doesn't mean they can't interpret clauses favouring themselves, do things to force your hand and other such nefarious and devious rule bending and general chicanery. They're devils, not modrons. They're not there to stick to the letter of the law; they're there to steal your soul(s).

While true when the contract is first established, once it is signed a Devil MUST follow the contract to the letter, with no care for the spirit of the law.

As Devils can use loopholes and wording abuses to mess with the one who made the deal, the same can be used against them if you manage to pull it off. It's not the individual Devil who decides, after all, it's Asmodeus himself who make it so a Devil has to follow what's been signed. It's just devils are usually much better at exploiting the letter of the deal than mortals.


I'm curious what loophole you say you found, OP. Mind telling us?

[Sparky McDibben]

Be careful with this. In our world, legal contracts have centuries of frameworks built up that mean parsing terms such as "easement" is a multi-hour process involving carefully worded arguments. Imagine the frameworks devils have.

Also, there's nothing saying there can't be a resolution process that favors the devils: "Well, you could go through arbitration, but the narzugon won't be able to see you for....65 years."

Finally, remember there's a lot you don't know. Did you have see invisibility up when you read the contract to make there aren't any clauses in invisible ink? Are you sure the being that approached you was a devil, not a disguised yugoloth or night hag? If you complete a diabolical contract, however circumspectly, what does that do to your soul?

I'm not trying to discoirage you, but there's a reason people outwit devils are mythologized: they're rare.

[Lunali]

As an aside, devils will often be very reasonable about their contracts, they will require that the terms be fulfilled in some way but otherwise they can usually be quite accepting of alternative solutions. This is because doing so makes you more willing to make future deals with them, confident that you can pull one over on them when it matters.

[blackjack50]

As others said, only your DM knows how it works in their campaign, but in typical 5e lore and rules:



While true when the contract is first established, once it is signed a Devil MUST follow the contract to the letter, with no care for the spirit of the law.

As Devils can use loopholes and wording abuses to mess with the one who made the deal, the same can be used against them if you manage to pull it off. It's not the individual Devil who decides, after all, it's Asmodeus himself who make it so a Devil has to follow what's been signed. It's just devils are usually much better at exploiting the letter of the deal than mortals.


I'm curious what loophole you say you found, OP. Mind telling us?

There is a certain segment that asks us to make a delivery to a certain group. We know who that group is, BUT...that group’s name is ALSO an object or could be the name of a business. It doesn’t have to be the name of the organization. Thus the contract COULD be considered completed if we simply delivered said object to something with the same name, as it was never stipulated WHO that person was.

[Unoriginal]

There is a certain segment that asks us to make a delivery to a certain group. We know who that group is, BUT...that group’s name is ALSO an object or could be the name of a business. It doesn’t have to be the name of the organization. Thus the contract COULD be considered completed if we simply delivered said object to something with the same name, as it was never stipulated WHO that person was.

That would certainly work at my table, if the Devil had failed to include the nature of who or what the delivery had to be made to. It's a classic.

Why are you against doing the delivery, though? I mean, outsmarting a Devil is nice, but as they pulled you out of troubles they can just create more troubles for you, as revenge.

[blackjack50]

That would certainly work at my table, if the Devil had failed to include the nature of who or what the delivery had to be made to. It's a classic.

Why are you against doing the delivery, though? I mean, outsmarting a Devil is nice, but as they pulled you out of troubles they can just create more troubles for you, as revenge.

Correct. But making the delivery to the group COULD be FAR more troublesome in general. And if we get on their radar? It may be just as bad as being on this devil’s radar IF we escape the 9 hells.

[Lunali]

Alternatively, making the delivery then killing the people you deliver to is also an option, assuming that's reasonably possible.

[Tvtyrant]

As a player this is the first time this has come up for me. Well the party had terrible luck (3 of 4 nat 1s and a DM role landed us in the 9 hells). We had a devil approach us and we were offered a contract since we have no realistic way to get out of where we are (we are low level). Now. We took the contract as no better option presented itself. My character is not the smartest, but per backstory and my own self I’ve been reading the contract over several times. I’ve found 1 possible loophole. It would complete the contract, BUT...only technically.

What I would like to know is...per lawful evil devils...my understanding is that they MUST follow through on their bargain. Is that correct? Technicalities are actually understood to be acceptable? Or should I expect that to be considered a violation?

Does the contract preclude post-contractual hit squads? Because Hell hath no fury like Hell scorned. Pulling one over on the immortal, nearly infinite hordes of fallen angels who defeat infinite demons on the regular might not be a safe plan.

Imagine the Devil reading the contract, nodding sagely as you explain the loophole that lets you not do what they want, and then that night a Pit Fiend whispers "Mr. Mammon is very disappointed in you" into your ear as you lie in bed.

[Unoriginal]

Correct. But making the delivery to the group COULD be FAR more troublesome in general. And if we get on their radar? It may be just as bad as being on this devil’s radar IF we escape the 9 hells.

I don't think it may, no.

The Devil is the one giving you the ride out of hell, right? Do you really want to anger the driver?

[1Pirate]

This is one of those you’re going to have to talk to the DM about. They can justify any of the consequences that have been said here. That being said, this seems creative enough that a decent DM might reward you. Probably not a free ride out of the Hells, but possibly put you in a better position than before.

Sure, the devil could be angry, but it could just as easily appreciate the PC’s cleverness. “Ah well played mortal. I shall be more thorough when we meet the next time...”

[denthor]

You are technically correct the best kind of correct.

What is your intelligence?

[Brutalitops]

Yeah devils are ridiculously fair in terms of contracts.

If you sign a contract they will normally want your soul or something in equal value but they have to deal fairly with contracts or the contract itself because invalid.

Asmodeus himself enforces contract and if a devil breaks a contract does not deliver on the deal in a contract or follow through on a deal the devil is going to be destroyed.

Asmodeus has a zero tolerance policy on this for two reasons. One if devils cheat nobody is going to trust them to make deals again. Secondly he gets lawful evil souls because he follows the rules. If he started breaking these contracts he'd lose access to all those souls so would not risk having contracts be invalidated so would force any devil to follow the terms of the contract.

[Lunali]

Yeah devils are ridiculously fair in terms of contracts.

If you sign a contract they will normally want your soul or something in equal value but they have to deal fairly with contracts or the contract itself because invalid.

Asmodeus himself enforces contract and if a devil breaks a contract does not deliver on the deal in a contract or follow through on a deal the devil is going to be destroyed.

Asmodeus has a zero tolerance policy on this for two reasons. One if devils cheat nobody is going to trust them to make deals again. Secondly he gets lawful evil souls because he follows the rules. If he started breaking these contracts he'd lose access to all those souls so would not risk having contracts be invalidated so would force any devil to follow the terms of the contract.

Also, a lot of the time they will include intentional loopholes in low yield contracts to encourage people to make more contracts thinking they can put one over on the devils.

[Unoriginal]

Yeah devils are ridiculously fair in terms of contracts.

If you sign a contract they will normally want your soul or something in equal value but they have to deal fairly with contracts or the contract itself because invalid.

You're mistaking honesty for fairness. A Devil will have no problem trying to get you to sell you and all your family's souls in exchange for some food when you're starving. It'll just be written on the contract, and they can't lie about it.



Asmodeus has a zero tolerance policy on this for two reasons. One if devils cheat nobody is going to trust them to make deals again. Secondly he gets lawful evil souls because he follows the rules. If he started breaking these contracts he'd lose access to all those souls so would not risk having contracts be invalidated so would force any devil to follow the terms of the contract.

Actually the reason in 5e is because Asmodeus himself would get disintegrated if he didn't do things by the rules.

[Chronos]

And let's not forget that Asmodeus himself wants scrupulous adherence to Law.

The game I was recently DMing included an infernal contract, and I decided that Asmodeus wants to encourage reading of the fine print so much that he deliberately inserts a loophole into every contract he makes. Few enough people ever actually find it that it's still very profitable for him, but it's there.

[Brutalitops]

[QUOTE=Unoriginal;24673760


Actually the reason in 5e is because Asmodeus himself would get disintegrated if he didn't do things by the rules.[/QUOTE]


Actually asmodeus won't be destroyed if he breaks the pact primeval only devils are destroyed. But they get the right to barter for souls.

Asmodues was an angel and a being of pure evil but equally is a being of law. He is beyond most gods and enforces the rules he made.


Also by following the rules he gets more souls in the long run. A devil could corrupt your soul but is going to want to turn your entire village towards tyrany and turn it into a farm for hundreds of souls

[Unoriginal]

Actually asmodeus won't be destroyed if he breaks the pact primeval only devils are destroyed. But they get the right to barter for souls.

Asmodues was an angel and a being of pure evil but equally is a being of law. He is beyond most gods and enforces the rules he made.

There is no such thing as the Pact Primeval in the 5e lore, and Asmodeus was never an angel this edition.

And thanks the stars for it, 'cause the Pact Primeval is dumber than hell.

[Brutalitops]

There is no such thing as the Pact Primeval in the 5e lore, and Asmodeus was never an angel this edition.

And thanks the stars for it, 'cause the Pact Primeval is dumber than hell.


Pact Primeval is a thing in 5e.

And asmodeus origin in 5e is left a mystery. He has gone from satan in Advanced dnd to apophis in 2e to satan in 3e then a different satain in 4e and in 5e its all of the above as they never make a statement in his origin

But in Original dnd 3rd and 4th he was an angel of different origin each time. He is literally the Lord of lies so all or none could be true which is cool. Personally I use the 3e version with a dash of 2e and 4e

Also why don't you like the pact primeval. I thought it worked perfectly to explain why devils got evil souls why they bartered for souls instead of just stealing them and why the devils wanted souls in the first place

[Tanarii]

Devil contracts are enforced by an artifact. At least, that's the legend, per The Trial of Asmodeus.

[Primus] did, however, order Asmodeus to forever carry a mighty artifact, the Ruby Rod, that would guarantee his adherence to law. The artifact, which has remained at Asmodeus's side ever since, grants him and his underlings the right to enter into contracts with mortals for their souls but unleashes an inescapable punishment upon any devil that breaches such a contract.
MToF pg 10

There's no mention of a Primeval Pact. Whatever that is, it doesn't appear to be part of 5e lore.

[Unoriginal]

The Primeval Pact (which I'm glad was ditched) meant that every single god was an evil monster, given they agreed to use large scale torture as an intimidation tactic to force mortals to act according to their standards, and and idiot, given they all signed that obviously exploitable contract without realizing they were getting fooled.

5e's explanation makes much more sense, IMO: all the souls are sent to the plane which is the closest to their nature, and new Devils are directly made from mortals' souls getting processed, so the Devils work to get more souls as a way to increase the power of the Nine Hell and further their dreams of conquest.

[Tanarii]

Read a bit about it, and it looks like the idea was replaced by The Trial of Asmodeus. Similar underlying theme, the upper planes decrying Asmodeus for his methods/crimes. And they both read like some kind of Asmodeus propaganda. I agree the Primeval version isn't very good though, it'd only appeal to someone that disliked the gods to begin with.

[Brutalitops]

I like the pact primeval version but I prefer the trial of asmodeus as a story. Its the only story that ties on the origin of the planes the blood war and asmodeus as a magnificent bastard and tied in cosmic signigicance to the blood war whiles giving an actual reason why the gods of good and evil did not go to war besides convenience. I

And the blood war is portrayed the war between the abyss and the nine hells as actually important and a proper cosmic struggle instead of just some random war that just happened and gave asmodeus motivation besides being evil because he randomly decided to be evil.