Vhuman Death Cleric - what feat?

[Delph]

Thinking about Death cleric - with little funny taste - using mexican death celebrating makeups. So colorful masks, flowers,... (Charlatan background for disguise kit)

From 1st lvl, standard array, Vhuman allowed.

And I'm thinking about many variant of feats:

- Magic Initiate - Cleric - Why again Cleric? Got 2 cantrips more so I can have Chill touch and Toll of Death or Spare the Dying to cover attack or save enemies and still double targets with Reaper or double stabilization, + 1 first level spell and a slot for it (Bless or Cure wounds are useful spells so It's possible to cast them once per day and lets my slots free for anything else); pozitive - using Wisdom for casting those spells
- Magic Initiate - Wizard - Find familiar, Chill touch and Toll of death and Spare the Dying again together.; negativ - using Int for casting those spells
- Magic Initiate - Druid - Thorn whip (30 ft melee attack with Divine strike and Touch of death), Guidance (for 2 from Chill, Toll, Spare), and probably healing (as from Cleric initiate); pozitive - using Wisdom for casting those spells
- Magic Initiate - Warlock - Again Chill, Toll and Spare triplets or Eldritch blast for Necro immunities (Inescable Destruction ignore only resistance, but do nothing with immunity) and Hex (yeah next 1d6 necro dmg); negativ - using Char for casting those spells


- Warcaster - advantage on concentration, AoO with cantrips (wohoo), casting with weapon and shield.

so many good options only one can be choosen... What should choose you and why?


Edit - some new informations
I'v got some info about the houserules we will use:

No more than 6th level. doesn't matter how long we will play.

Short rest is one-night rest, Long rest is a week rest

When you fall down under 0 hp and then you are healed you've got critical point. This critical points are count in next death saves as failitures. Sou you can't fall under 0 hp too offten.

No creative spells - No mending, no create water and food, no goodberries, ...

That mean for us we are short with spell slots, it's important doesn't fall down.

I'v changed Death to the Grave Cleric. His abilities are much better for staying alive, then Death. He is good dmg dealer. And still can use Mexican death celebretion makeup :)

And definitely choose Magic Initiate - Cleric. It gives me more cantrips so I can have two dealing dmg with diferent type and 1 first spell slot more.

[jaappleton]

If you take MI: Wizard, grab Booming Blade. You never get a second attack as a Cleric, but your Potent Strikes deal another +1d8 with weapons. It makes for a solid attack at that level against single targets which frees up your spell slots so you’re not so reliant on Guiding Bolt or Inflict Wounds for single target damage.

Aside from that? Warcaster. Cast Spirit Guardians and have floating scythes encircle you, slicing through your enemies, with Warcaster helping to maintain your Concentration.

[nickl_2000]

Most clerics that get to the level are going to make liberal use of Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon. Both of those combine very, very well with Thorn Whip since it can get someone closer to the areas where they will be hurt. Thorn whip is also a great spell for helping out the team.

Of those choices, I personally would choose MI:Druid with Guidance and Thorn Whip (although I would probably choose healing word or absorb elements as the spell).


I will be honest though, I absolutely have the idea in my head of a Nature Cleric who focuses on Thorn whip and dragging people into AoE damaging affects. So, that is likely to impact my opinion here.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'll agree that MI: Wizard is the way to go, but I'd get Shield for your 1st level spell. Take Booming Blade for sure, and probably either Minor Illusion or Mage Hand for your other cantrip.

[Delph]

at first - thanks for any reply.

and now to some corrections:

I don't want to play some min/max balanced character. Big part is RP - so really necrotic spells or with good flavor.

Her prestart past was:
She is magicaly iniciated and charlatan background. Lived on some small island (adventure is on archipelago) where she use her diguise skills to look like older witch/shaman and use her cantrips or first level slot to keep her disguise work. As Cleric and Druid MI she can use guidance and cure wounds or bless (so she will be "good one"), as warlock (can link with Raven queen) she can use hex and spare the dying (be bad one). Wizard will be harder, but trough familiar, spare the dying and Toll of death (be bad one).
But after time on this island come real clerics or paladin and found she is just charlatan and citizens or new ones (if she will be good one, or bad) buried her still living. Under mud cover she got talk with godness of death. She like her work, even she wasnt cleric she made people believe. Then she get out trough some teleportation to some order of death to get real cleric education.

So no booming blades, thorn whips maybe. No Shild spell,...

later spirit guardians or spirit weapon will be fine, but not necessary. I wanna be more "casting cleric" than stand in front.

https://www.enworld.org/attachments/los-dios-jpg.124850/

[1Pirate]

What are your stats precisely?

Edit: missed a point already stated.

[KorvinStarmast]

Alert.
+5 to initiative and you can't be surprised. Hidden/invisible attackers don't have advantage on you.

There are some real benefits to going first in the intiative order to set the tone of the encounter by putting up a buff or debuff spell, before others act.

If that does not interest you, then Warcaster.
Why?
You have enough concentration spells that it is worth the investment.


From 1st lvl, standard array, Vhuman allowed.
15 14 13 12 10 8
S12 D13(+1) C 14 I10 W 15(+1) Ch 8
Prof: Sailor (Athletics, Perception) (Cleric: Insight, Religion) Bonus Prof: Arcana
Feat: Alert or War Caster.
Cantrips: Guidance, Sacred Flame/Toll the Dead, Light
Spells(Standard Load would be: Bless, Cure Wounds or Healing Word, Sanctuary, and then whatever rows your boat.

Objective: be a support character with some combat ability. If you really feel the need, swap Strength and Dex.

Go forth and do great things.

[Delph]

thanks for answers.

I'v got some info about the houserules we will use:

No more than 6th level. :smalleek: doesn't matter how long we will play.

Shortrest is one-night rest, Longrest is a week rest

When you fall down under 0 hp and then you are healed you've got critical point. This critical points are count in next death saves as failitures. Sou you can't fall under 0 hp too offten.

No creative spells - No mending, no create water and food, no goodberries, ...

That mean for us we are short with spell slots, it's important doesn't fall down.

I change Death to the Grave Cleric. His abilities are much better for staying alive, then Death. He is good dmg dealer. And still can use Mexican death celebretion makeup :)

And definitely choose Magic Initiate - Cleric. It gives me more cantrips so I can have two dealing dmg with diferent type and 1 first spell slot more.

[kingcheesepants]

So no high levels, resting is considerably more time intensive and no creation spells. You're 100% correct in thinking about conserving spell slots. If you're really set on magic initiate cleric than go for it (the extra cantrips would be useful) but I would suggest Ritual Caster: Wizard. This will allow you to get access to spells like Find Familiar (have your familiar be a raven for that death aesthetic), Detect Magic, Tiny Hut, Unseen Servant and more without using a spell slot or even needing to prepare the spell.

[LudicSavant]

Thinking about Death cleric - with little funny taste - using mexican death celebrating makeups. So colorful masks, flowers,... (Charlatan background for disguise kit)

Neat. My acolyte of Wee Jas (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?450352-Wee-Jas-the-First-Lich) character is kinda like that, with Disguise proficiency and all.


Magic Initiate - Wizard - Find familiar, Chill touch and Toll of death and Spare the Dying again together.; negativ - using Int for casting those spells
When you get a cantrip from Magic Initiate, it uses the casting stat of the class you get it from. Getting attack cantrips like Chill Touch or Toll the Death from magic initiate therefore defeats the point of getting those cantrips. It doesn't matter how good the cantrip is if you're not using Wisdom with it.

If you're going to take MI - Wizard, you should be taking Booming Blade. Get Toll the Dead from your CLERIC cantrip list, and Chill Touch from the DEATH CLERIC subclass feature.


- Magic Initiate - Warlock - Again Chill, Toll and Spare triplets or Eldritch blast for Necro immunities (Inescable Destruction ignore only resistance, but do nothing with immunity) and Hex (yeah next 1d6 necro dmg); negativ - using Char for casting those spells

Out of 726 monsters in the MM, Volo's, and MToF, only 23 have immunity. If you're up against one of those rare 23, you can just cast one of your other spells prepared for the day. You don't need a feat to get around immunity.

Good things are only good in their appropriate synergistic contexts. In Eldritch Blast's case, that means maximum Charisma and invocations like Agonizing/Repelling Blast. You don't have that.


- Magic Initiate - Druid - Thorn whip (30 ft melee attack with Divine strike and Touch of death)

Thorn Whip does not work with Divine Strike, because Divine Strike only works with Weapon Attacks, not Spell Attacks.

[Delph]

Neat. My acolyte of Wee Jas (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?450352-Wee-Jas-the-First-Lich) character is kinda like that, with Disguise proficiency and all.

Great! I'll read it before sleep (If my kids don't get me asleep earlier then I them)



When you get a cantrip from Magic Initiate, it uses the casting stat of the class you get it from. Getting attack cantrips like Chill Touch or Toll the Death from magic initiate therefore defeats the point of getting those cantrips. It doesn't matter how good the cantrip is if you're not using Wisdom with it.

If you're going to take MI - Wizard, you should be taking Booming Blade. Get Toll the Dead from your CLERIC cantrip list, and Chill Touch from the DEATH CLERIC subclass feature.



Out of 726 monsters in the MM, Volo's, and MToF, only 23 have immunity. If you're up against one of those rare 23, you can just cast one of your other spells prepared for the day. You don't need a feat to get around immunity.

I know it and mentioned it when I wrote Pluses and Cons those


Good things are only good in their appropriate synergistic contexts. In Eldritch Blast's case, that means maximum Charisma and invocations like Agonizing/Repelling Blast. You don't have that.
I don't agree with it. Eldritch blast is one of best cantrips even if you arn't warlock with invocations. It's force, It use single rays, so hex is still working twice. Other cantrips don't. With invoctions it's best cantrip just because warlock is working 10 levels only with 2 slots so, need keep his progres in dmg per battle with EB.


Thorn Whip does not work with Divine Strike, because Divine Strike only works with Weapon Attacks, not Spell Attacks.[/QUOTE]

In Thorn whip describe is "magic weapon attack" So I believe It's counting.


thanks for your points of view, but if you read my last post where I describe what houserules waitnig for me, many of this ideas are just going out of.

[cutlery]

I'd probably do spell sniper and booming blade as the free cantrip; that ought to stack with Divine Strike and let you keep up reasonably well with melee damage. If not that, war caster.

Reason being that if a cantrip like BB is what you want you might get a lot more utility out of spell sniper than magic initiate:wizard. Unless of course you take Find Familiar for a crow familiar.

[Delph]

So no high levels, resting is considerably more time intensive and no creation spells. You're 100% correct in thinking about conserving spell slots. If you're really set on magic initiate cleric than go for it (the extra cantrips would be useful) but I would suggest Ritual Caster: Wizard. This will allow you to get access to spells like Find Familiar (have your familiar be a raven for that death aesthetic), Detect Magic, Tiny Hut, Unseen Servant and more without using a spell slot or even needing to prepare the spell.

You have same ideas as me. Rituals will be a really good way how to keep spell slots, but with this feat, I'll get only 2 spells and any other I need find. From start, I'll have a chance copy from our wizard, but I don't see needs to have them twice in party. And YES, raven is really wanted for RP, but I need to wait for scroll or live without.

[Sol0botmate]

If Eberron stuff is allowed I would take Aberrant Dragonmark.

You get +1 to CON (always good for clerics), you get one cantrip from sorc spell list (Booming Blade) and you LEARN AND CAN cast from dragon mark one level 1 spell (so you get it to your spell list + you can cast it from mark) and take Shield spell.

Way better than MI: Wizard.

[LudicSavant]

I don't agree with it. Eldritch blast is one of best cantrips even if you arn't warlock with invocations. It's force, It use single rays, so hex is still working twice. Other cantrips don't.

Here's the thing: None of that is actually enough to make up for the mathematical difference caused by having a low stat associated with it.

You're blowing a lot of resources here to accomplish very little. A feat, a bonus action, Concentration, a spell slot... all just trying to play catchup to what your other cantrips already do.

Now try comparing what your cantrips already do (make sure you're factoring in accuracy because it's incredibly important to your DPR) combined with all those resources spent on something other than Hex, and check out how far behind Eldritch Blast is.

Eldritch Blast is great if you have max Charisma and invocations. You do not.

For example, 2x (1d10+1d6) with a +1 stat is less damage than 1x (2d10+1d6) with a +4 stat against a typical AC 15 foe. And that comparison only gets worse for Eldritch Blast if you're using something that actually synergizes with a single-hit cantrip (like SG or SW or Bless or PFG&E), instead of wasting your precious, extremely valuable feat on being able to cast Hex once in order to do garbage damage.

So no, no it is not one of the best cantrips in the game if you don't have high Charisma and invocations. It is simply not worth it.

You know what's better than that? Your twinnable, cover-ignoring, OA-threatening Warcaster Toll the Dead, combined with spending your Concentration on something good (not that you even need to Concentrate on anything to outdamage Eldritch Blast, here).

And if you run into one of the very rare (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612317-Resistances-Immunities-and-Vulnerabilities-of-Monsters-in-MM-Volo-s-and-MToF) enemies who are immune to that damage type? Cast a different spell or cantrip. Or just Turn Undead because that's what most of the immune enemies are. You don't actually need Force Damage for anything here.

Heck, if you used Eldritch Blast + Hex on those Necrotic immune enemies you're so worried about, Hex would do nothing. So you're just using a cantrip that is worse than regular cantrips. You could have just used the Cleric's radiant cantrip instead to get around damage type immunities, or Turn Undead, or Booming Blade, or anything else. Heck, a couple of the monsters with immunity to necrotic have Vulnerability to Radiant.

Again, good things are only good in their appropriate synergistic contexts. Just because you heard that Eldritch Blast is a good cantrip for Warlocks, doesn't mean it's a good cantrip for Standard Array Clerics.

One of the biggest mistakes that inexperienced character builders make is thinking that they can just sort of ignore accuracy. You can't. It's very, very important.

[Evaar]

In Thorn whip describe is "magic weapon attack" So I believe It's counting.


I don't see where you're reading that. It says "make a melee spell attack against the target." That means it's a spell attack, not a weapon attack. "Melee" doesn't mean it uses a weapon, that just describes whether you'd apply advantage or disadvantage in a variety of situations.

[LudicSavant]

In Thorn whip describe is "magic weapon attack" So I believe It's counting.

That is not what the book says.

It says that it is a Melee Spell Attack. Not a Magic Weapon Attack.

It is not the same thing.