Augment Healing and Lesser Restoration

[Biggus]

The Augment Healing feat (CD p.79) says "add +2 points per spell level to the amount of damage healed by any Conjuration [Healing] spell that you cast".

The definition of damage (PHB p.307) is "a decrease in hit points, an ability score, or other aspects of a character caused by an injury, illness, or magical effect".

Lesser Restoration is a Conjuration (Healing) spell.

The examples given in the Augment Healing feat all relate to HP damage, but as far as I can see by RAW it would also apply to Lesser Restoration, meaning it heals 1d4+4 points of ability damage when cast by a Cleric or Druid with AH.

Is there any reason this wouldn't work?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Your reading is correct. Lesser Restoration cures ability damage much like cure light wounds cures hit points, and Augment Healing clearly applies.

[Zanos]

Seems legit to me.

[Melcar]

The Augment Healing feat (CD p.79) says "add +2 points per spell level to the amount of damage healed by any Conjuration [Healing] spell that you cast".

The definition of damage (PHB p.307) is "a decrease in hit points, an ability score, or other aspects of a character caused by an injury, illness, or magical effect".

Lesser Restoration is a Conjuration (Healing) spell.

The examples given in the Augment Healing feat all relate to HP damage, but as far as I can see by RAW it would also apply to Lesser Restoration, meaning it heals 1d4+4 points of ability damage when cast by a Cleric or Druid with AH.

Is there any reason this wouldn't work?

Yes that’s how it works! It also works with the Vigor line of spells!

[Biggus]

Thanks all, just wanted to check I hadn't missed something.


It also works with the Vigor line of spells!

Agreed, although it's debatable whether it increases the healing by 2 per spell level every round, or just that much to the total amount healed...

[Khedrac]

Yes that’s how it works! It also works with the Vigor line of spells!


Agreed, although it's debatable whether it increases the healing by 2 per spell level every round, or just that much to the total amount healed...

No debate - vigor, lesser and spells based of it do not heal damage and thus Augment Healing has no effect! There is a significant difference between actually healing someone and granting them the ability to heal themselves.

The subject gains fast healing 1, enabling it to heal 1 hit point per round until the spell ends and automatically becoming stabilized if it begins dying from hit point loss during that time.
Lesser vigor does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, nor does it allow a creature to regrow or attach lost body parts.
At the tables where I play we houserule that augment healing with a X vigor spell instantly heals 2pt/spell level at the time of casting (remember that fast healing applies in the recipient's turn not the caster's) but it's a houserule.

Edit: I had totally missed the restoration, lesser link - nice find!

[Darg]

No debate - vigor, lesser and spells based of it do not heal damage and thus Augment Healing has no effect! There is a significant difference between actually healing someone and granting them the ability to heal themselves.

Actually, there is a debate. Quote the entire description:


The subject gains fast healing 1, enabling it to heal 1 hit point per round until the spell ends and automatically becoming stabilized if it begins dying from hit point loss during that time. Lesser vigor does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, nor does it allow a creature to regrow or attach lost body parts.

It clearly states the spell is doing the restoring. Fast healing 1 provided by the spell is the form of magical healing that the spell provides. How augment healing works with the spell is pretty cut and dry too. At this point one could argue that the spell can only heal 2 more hit points. This thinking however runs into the issue of what happens when you get to mass healing? Normally you heal a set amount per person. If Mass CLW healed 20 people, there is no rule that says anyone can choose who gets extra healing and yet it is supposed to heal only an extra 10. In this situation, the most logical intent would be that it increases the numerical outcome of healing per instance. Augment healing doesn't mention anything about the total amount healed, only ever the "amount healed." In the case of Lesser Vigor it heals 1 point, per turn. Augment healing increases the amount healed by +2. This makes the amount healed equal to 3. Next round it heals again. Same spell, separate instances of healing.

[Zombimode]

It clearly states the spell is doing the restoring. Fast healing 1 provided by the spell is the form of magical healing that the spell provides. How augment healing works with the spell is pretty cut and dry too.

It is? How so?

"The subject gains fast healing 1, enabling it to heal 1 hit point per round"

The spell does not have an restorative effect by itself.

[Yael]

It is? How so?

"The subject gains fast healing 1, enabling it to heal 1 hit point per round"

The spell does not have an restorative effect by itself.

I think he meant the second sentence of the spell, being the next quote.


Lesser vigor does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, nor does it allow a creature to regrow or attach lost body parts.
The spell is implying there is a "restorative effect" going on. That could be the base of an argument as Darg mentioned before. Pretty weak, but an argument in the end, I suppose.

[ixrisor]

I think he meant the second sentence of the spell, being the next quote.


The spell is implying there is a "restorative effect" going on. That could be the base of an argument as Darg mentioned before. Pretty weak, but an argument in the end, I suppose.

Going completely by RAW, both “lesser vigour doesn’t heal” and the second part of the spell can be true. In other words, the second part of the spell is true in the same way “fireball doesn’t heal damage from starvation” is true. It doesn’t heal damage from starvation. It doesn’t heal any damage, but it doesn’t heal starvation either.

More reasonably, the second part probably refers to what the fast healing from lesser vigour does, it would just be clunky to write “the fast healing granted by lesser vigour” when they could write “lesser vigour”.

[Darg]

I think the misunderstanding here is the fast healing. Fast healing is normally an extraordinary quality. The spell isn't giving a quality, it is giving an effect. The spell is doing the healing.

Let's put it another way. Would Rejuvenation Cocoon not benefit from the feat? The cocoon is the vehicle for healing is it not? They are Conjuration (Healing) spells. If the spells themselves weren't providing the healing they wouldn't be Conjuration (Healing).


Add +2 points per spell level to the amount of damage healed by any Conjuration [Healing] spell that you cast.

It never says anything about how the healing is done just that any healing done by the spell is increased. How can the spell not be healing the target? There is nowhere in the description of lesser vigor that states the the creature is healing itself. In fact, the spell literally copies and pastes the Fast Healing description:


A creature with the fast healing special quality regains hit points at an exceptionally fast rate, usually 1 or more hit points per round, as given in the creature’s entry. Except where noted here, fast healing is just like natural healing. At the beginning of each of the creature’s turns, it heals a certain number of hit points (defined in its description). A creature that has taken both nonlethal and lethal damage heals the nonlethal damage first. Fast healing does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, and it does not allow a creature to regrow lost body parts. Unless otherwise stated, it does not allow lost body parts to be reattached. Fast healing does not increase the number of hit points regained when a creature polymorphs.

Yet the authors deliberately changed the wording to specify Lesser Vigor. The only evidence I could find while googling against the fact that the spells are providing the healing is simply people not wanting to take the spells at face value. Take the description of the Healing subschool for example:


Healing

Certain divine conjurations heal creatures or even bring them back to life.

Conjurations that heal. Seems extremely straightforward.

[Arael666]

Going completely by RAW, both “lesser vigour doesn’t heal” and the second part of the spell can be true. In other words, the second part of the spell is true in the same way “fireball doesn’t heal damage from starvation” is true. It doesn’t heal damage from starvation. It doesn’t heal any damage, but it doesn’t heal starvation either.

More reasonably, the second part probably refers to what the fast healing from lesser vigour does, it would just be clunky to write “the fast healing granted by lesser vigour” when they could write “lesser vigour”.

Except you're now arguing semantics, not RAW.

The point Zombimode is making is that despite being a "conjuration [healing]" spell, the vigor line spells don't actually heal any damage. What they actually do is give the target of the spell the fast healing special quality.

The vigor line spells can even be used on undead, thus granting them the fast healing ability, not damaging them but actually healing them, since according to the SRD undead
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.

If the spell were actually healing damage, not just granting the fast healing special quality, the undead would suffer damge.

[Arael666]

I think the misunderstanding here is the fast healing. Fast healing is normally an extraordinary quality. The spell isn't giving a quality, it is giving an effect. The spell is doing the healing.

The spell literally spells it out "The subject gains fast healing 1". How do you justify saying "The spell isn't giving a quality"?

[The Random NPC]

Except you're now arguing semantics, not RAW.

The point Zombimode is making is that despite being a "conjuration [healing]" spell, the vigor line spells don't actually heal any damage. What they actually do is give the target of the spell the fast healing special quality.

The vigor line spells can even be used on undead, thus granting them the fast healing ability, not damaging them but actually healing them, since according to the SRD undead

If the spell were actually healing damage, not just granting the fast healing special quality, the undead would suffer damge.

Fun fact, rather than making a super rule about positive energy's interaction with undead, they decided to individually notate when positive energy harms undead. While nearly every source of positive energy has that information, there are some notable exemptions, such as the plane of positive energy. In short, unless the undead or the source in questions says it harms undead, it doesn't.

[Darg]

The spell literally spells it out "The subject gains fast healing 1". How do you justify saying "The spell isn't giving a quality"?

It's giving an effect. It's not giving an extraordinary quality. It's not giving a supernatural quality. It's not giving a natural quality. It's not giving a feat. It's giving the effect of the spell. Just because the mode of healing is through fast healing, does not mean it isn't the spell doing the healing itself. Nothing in the spell description says it is giving a quality, simply a vehicle to provide healing.

Fast healing is generally a quality of creature type. Creature type is generally the power fueling the ability to heal. Vigor is a spell that conjures the material and facilitation for the healing. Your body isn't cannibalizing itself to heal you. The spell is healing you.

Where is your evidence of your interpretation beyond stretching the definition of a few words?

[Zerryzerry]

It's giving an effect. It's not giving an extraordinary quality. It's not giving a supernatural quality. It's not giving a natural quality. It's not giving a feat. It's giving the effect of the spell. Just because the mode of healing is through fast healing, does not mean it isn't the spell doing the healing itself. Nothing in the spell description says it is giving a quality, simply a vehicle to provide healing.

Fast healing is generally a quality of creature type. Creature type is generally the power fueling the ability to heal. Vigor is a spell that conjures the material and facilitation for the healing. Your body isn't cannibalizing itself to heal you. The spell is healing you.

Where is your evidence of your interpretation beyond stretching the definition of a few words?

Why a spell should not give an extraordinary/natural/supernatural quality?

Citing from the "Primal" series of spells:
If primal instinct is active on you at the same time as primal hunter, primal senses, or primal speed, you gain uncanny dodge (as the barbarian class feature).
If all four of these spells are active on you at the same time, you gain improved uncanny dodge (as the barbarian class feature; your barbarian level for the purpose of being flanked equals your caster level).

Isn't Uncanny Dodge a class-specific extraordinary quality?

or even, more simple, the spell Darkvision. Which, strangely, gives Darkvision. Wich is a race-restricted extraordinary quality. or Blindsight. With a bit of research I am pretty sure i could find many extraordinary or supernatural qualities given to a subject by a spell (Blindsense, tremorsense, Elude, Pounce, Trapfinding, Low-light vision, etc)

In every spell description there is a paragraph stating what the effect is. usually is short and requires extra infos, like for Vigor and his counterparts.
Here the effect of the spell is "The subject gains fast healing X" (where X depends on the version of Vigor used). All the other text is clarification or flavour.

Vigor is not affected by Augment healing

[Darg]

If the effect was giving an extraordinary quality the spell would say so such as "the target gains the fast healing 1 extraordinary quality." Your example of the primal spells at the very least has the additional text of (as the barbarian class feature) to make an argument for. Vigor has no such wording. To make assumptions beyond what is actually in the spell description is really stretching things. It's not as if the primal spells actually qualify if there were a requirement on something of the uncanny dodge class feature either.

Because it isn't a class feature and is in fact a spell. It is only possibility for the uncanny dodge to be an extraordinary quality instead of the effect of the spells if one takes the parenthetical to mean you gain a class feature instead of the obvious intent of referencing the rules.

[Celestia]

Fun fact, rather than making a super rule about positive energy's interaction with undead, they decided to individually notate when positive energy harms undead. While nearly every source of positive energy has that information, there are some notable exemptions, such as the plane of positive energy. In short, unless the undead or the source in questions says it harms undead, it doesn't.
Ironically, the positive plane actually cannot kill undead as they're immune to the fortitude save vs exploding.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Ironically, the positive plane actually cannot kill undead as they're immune to the fortitude save vs exploding.

This offended a friend deeply as an undead on the PEP would gain temporary hit points constantly at no risk to it, so it could survive there for millennia with so many temp HP that only a TO build stands a chance. (Constructs also run into this issue).

[Vaern]

Lesser vigor says the subject gains fast healing 1, enabling it to heal 1 hp per round. The spell doesn't heal; it gives the subject a property that allows it to passively heal itself.

[Telonius]

This offended a friend deeply as an undead on the PEP would gain temporary hit points constantly at no risk to it, so it could survive their for millennia with so many temp HP that only a TO build stands a chance. (Constructs also run into this issue).

Not only temporary hit points. While it's hanging out being torture/healed by Positive Energy, the "Evolved Undead" template could be applied multiple times. Meaning it could have an arbitrarily high Strength, Charisma, and Natural Armor. Since the SLAs are Charisma-based, they all become "Save DC: LOL" (and so do any spells from existing Charisma-based casting like Sorcerer).

[Darg]

Lesser vigor says the subject gains fast healing 1, enabling it to heal 1 hp per round. The spell doesn't heal; it gives the subject a property that allows it to passively heal itself.

Nothing says the spell isn't causing the healing. Repeating the same line in the spell description won't change that fact. Adding the word "itself," while illuminating to your understood reading of the line, narrows the scope of the sentence unnecessarily. "It heals 1 hp per round" has a different meaning than "it heals itself 1 hp per round." If you want to say that the spell gives a "property" that heals, it is still the spell that is providing the healing through the "property." Augment Healing only cares that the spell is healing. All evidence points to the spell actually being the source of healing.

I realize this has gotten way off track for the thread so I'm going to stop here.

[The Random NPC]

Nothing says the spell isn't causing the healing. Repeating the same line in the spell description won't change that fact. Adding the word "itself," while illuminating to your understood reading of the line, narrows the scope of the sentence unnecessarily. "It heals 1 hp per round" has a different meaning than "it heals itself 1 hp per round." If you want to say that the spell gives a "property" that heals, it is still the spell that is providing the healing through the "property." Augment Healing only cares that the spell is healing. All evidence points to the spell actually being the source of healing.

I realize this has gotten way off track for the thread so I'm going to stop here.

I believe the argument is that the spell is a step too far removed to allow augment healing to work. To add some fuel to the fire, what do people think about applying augment healing to potions? The books says you count as both the target and the caster of the spell, so if you drink a potion of cure light, would you heal 1d8+1 or 1d8+3?

[Vaern]

I believe the argument is that the spell is a step too far removed to allow augment healing to work. To add some fuel to the fire, what do people think about applying augment healing to potions? The books says you count as both the target and the caster of the spell, so if you drink a potion of cure light, would you heal 1d8+1 or 1d8+3?

Honestly, I would say potions would benefit from augment healing. It's a passive effect, not metamagic, so it would apply to a normal potion effect being "cast" without the need to modify it in any way.
On the same note, elemental savants gain the elemental mastery ability which passively and automatically changes the energy type of spells that they cast. The user of an oil is considered the caster, so an elemental savant of water using an oil of flame arrow would create projectiles that deal cold damage.

[Arael666]

Where is your evidence of your interpretation beyond stretching the definition of a few words?

The spell says "The subject gains fast healing 1", since fast healing is a special quality, I'm concluding it gives the said special quality.

You're the one saying the spell, despite it clearly stating it gives the subject fast healing, somehow the subject doesn't get said special quality. It gains an "effect" that heals, like the special quality, but it's not actually the special quality, it's different.

I'm not streching anything buddy, you are.

Just out of curiosity, does the heroics spell not give feats? does the darkvision spell not give a special quality? Is just because you want the feat to work with vigor?

[Darg]

To add some fuel to the fire, what do people think about applying augment healing to potions? The books says you count as both the target and the caster of the spell, so if you drink a potion of cure light, would you heal 1d8+1 or 1d8+3?

The DMG says you are the caster of the effect. Augment Healing says you have to be the caster of the spell. I would say that if a person that had Augment healing was supplying the spell component it would work. The DMG also clearly mentions that potions and oils are like spells which obviously means they actually aren't.


Just out of curiosity, does the heroics spell not give feats? does the darkvision spell not give a special quality? Is just because you want the feat to work with vigor?

Heroics explicitly tells you it is giving a feat. Darkvision does not tell you it is a special quality. It is magic. The magic is what allows you to see in the dark. I don't have to "want" Augment Healing to work with vigor. I just don't make excuses for it not to work. Spell causes healing and cast by feat owner = spell heals = affected by Augment Healing. Until you find a rule that contradicts this, Augment Healing not affecting all Conjuration (Healing) spells that heal is simply speculation and house ruling.

[Arael666]

Heroics explicitly tells you it is giving a feat. Darkvision does not tell you it is a special quality. It is magic. The magic is what allows you to see in the dark. I don't have to "want" Augment Healing to work with vigor. I just don't make excuses for it not to work. Spell causes healing and cast by feat owner = spell heals = affected by Augment Healing. Until you find a rule that contradicts this, Augment Healing not affecting all Conjuration (Healing) spells that heal is simply speculation and house ruling.

You're the one who needs to provide the rule that says a spell cannot give a special quality, since you're the one saying it cannot do that, when the spell itself says it gives such ability, be it fast healing, darkvision or even a feat.

Viger line spells do not heal, they grant an ability that heals.

[JNAProductions]

So, does it make it effectively Fast Healing 3?
Does it make it last two more rounds?
Does it heal 2 more HP the first time it procs, and no more?

[ciopo]

for what it's worth, it have been FAQ'ed that augment healing increases lesser vigor by 2 points on the first round only, and mass lesser vigor increases the first tick by 6 for all recipients.

It seems a reasonable RAI to me

speculation time : I would agree to the RAW interpretation of "it clearly grants fast healing 1, it does not heal by itself" if the spell was classed as transmutation.

But it's classed as conjuration(healing), so augment healing should work with it. I find the interpretation "enabling it to heal 1(+2) hit point per round" just as valid. The semantics of it, as often is the case, are conflicting :)

Comes down to table preference I suppose. I'd probably go for the "+2 one tick only" interpretation

[Darg]

I agree, it comes down to preference and understanding your table. If your group thinks that healing spells are lackluster then there is no reason not to take Augment Healing at its word. If you want to have players expend more resources more quickly, Augment Healing can have its additional healing be a one time expenditure (mass spells only give the bonus to one target for example). Whether it's actually useful at that point can be up for debate. It's just like how many tables don't allow DMM persist.


You're the one who needs to provide the rule that says a spell cannot give a special quality, since you're the one saying it cannot do that

Actually, that would be you putting words in my mouth. Spells can definitely grant special qualities. The spell simply has to state it is granting a special quality. As vigor doesn't state it is giving a special quality, it is giving the fast healing spell effect.


they grant an ability that heals.

They grant the ability to heal. They are healing with the effect of the spell