Bladesinger players: how has your experience been?

[Klorox]

I'll be playing one for the first time starting next week. I think we'll go from level 4-10 over the course of this campaign.

The last time I played a bladesinger was when it was a 2e fighter/mage kit.

How does this one compare?

[Eldariel]

More castery. Actually just a perfect caster that can also fight. Best it's ever been: now it basically gives up nothing.

[sayaijin]

I like to think of it as a spectrum of gishes with a battlemaster high elf with a single cantrip at one end and bladesinger at the other end of spellcasting prowess. You cannot be a better caster gish than bladesinger, but you could definitely be a better martial. All depends where you want to land on that spectrum.

[Klorox]

I like to think of it as a spectrum of gishes with a battlemaster high elf with a single cantrip at one end and bladesinger at the other end of spellcasting prowess. You cannot be a better caster gish than bladesinger, but you could definitely be a better martial. All depends where you want to land on that spectrum.

Let’s say I wanted a more martial feel, multiclass a couple of fighter levels and call it a day?

[AvvyR]

I've been playing one a long time in Mad Mage, and I love it.

I took level 1 as Fighter for CON saves and dueling style, but I'm constantly debating whether it was worth it. The delay on new spell levels is pretty harsh, and anyone will tell you once you get past tier 1, Bladesingers spend most of their time casting rather than swinging swords. That said, the defensive bonuses the subclass offers are incredible. I have the same AC as the tank, plus Shield to raise it to the stratosphere, similar mobility to the monk, more if I cast Haste, and I don't even have to roll on most concentration checks.

[sayaijin]

Let’s say I wanted a more martial feel, multiclass a couple of fighter levels and call it a day?

Correct, but going to level 10 means that you won't have access to 4th level spells if you take those two levels in fighter. There's actually another thread right now where someone is asking if it's worth it to take a fighter level or two as a bladesinger. You might find that thread useful.

Edit: And I'm now realizing you wrote the other thread too.

[Klorox]

Correct, but going to level 10 means that you won't have access to 4th level spells if you take those two levels in fighter. There's actually another thread right now where someone is asking if it's worth it to take a fighter level or two as a bladesinger. You might find that thread useful.

Edit: And I'm now realizing you wrote the other thread too.

LOL, yeah. I'm pretty sure I am going straight wizard here. The rest of the party is made up of martials and doing a lot of damage isn't really needed.

It sounds like I'll be almost impossible to hit as long as I have slots left to cast shield. It also sounds like I might be fine staying in the back with my bow and spells until I'm cornered.

[AvvyR]

LOL, yeah. I'm pretty sure I am going straight wizard here. The rest of the party is made up of martials and doing a lot of damage isn't really needed.

It sounds like I'll be almost impossible to hit as long as I have slots left to cast shield. It also sounds like I might be fine staying in the back with my bow and spells until I'm cornered.

Honestly, I've only cast Shield like... twice. The standing AC is so high that so few attacks get through I'm normally willing to just take the hit. Save your slots for Elemental Absorption on those crippling dragon breath attacks or hits from incredibly damaging attacks like giants. I still recommend having it for emergencies, but don't blow your slots shielding 7 damage attacks just because you can.

Yeah, elven bow proficiency means you can make effective ranged attacks without needing an attack cantrip, which is what I do. Just watch out for return fire, because your AC won't be great if you're not bladesinging, and you can't bladesing and use a bow.

[Corran]

Let’s say I wanted a more martial feel, multiclass a couple of fighter levels and call it a day?
The main draw would be action surge, and action surge combines best with spellcasting. So if you want to multiclass for a little added martial-ish feel, I'd suggest rogue 2 instead for cunning action (that and sneak attack boost your weapon based attacks/ GFB/ BB, and CA has good synergy with gr invisibility [+warcaster BB OA's] which is a good combat buff and makes positioning [in melee for OA's, but also for counterspelling] more important than if you were just a caster with no melee tricks).

[smp4life]

More castery. Actually just a perfect caster that can also fight. Best it's ever been: now it basically gives up nothing.

Except blade-singing is a very limited resource. 2 times a day, 1 minute each.

[Eldariel]

Let’s say I wanted a more martial feel, multiclass a couple of fighter levels and call it a day?

I generally wouldn't bother. Fact is, the Wizard levels are going to help you fight better. You'll get your Shadow Blade and Haste and Blink and Mirror Image and Greater Invisibility and Tenser's Transformation (and once you get Simulacrum, you can Tenser's yourself and have your Simulacrum Haste you) and Magic Jar and eventually Shapechange/Foresight/etc. The faster you get there, the better. Fighter gives you +2 damage, which is nice, but e.g. higher upcast Shadowblade does more. So I'd just focus on maxing out your casting and consider more levels of Fighter around level 18 earliest (once you have 9th level spells, Wizard doesn't really do that many important things anymore).

Fact is, thanks to Bladesong your Concentration checks are going to be more than fine. You would still be well-advised to take Res: Con (you want bonus to Con anyways as a frontline Wizard) at which point your Concentration checks will be such that you will basically just not be failing them. At all. War Caster isn't a bad pick either if only to make your OAs hurt (Booming Blade is the optimal choice; if you want Reach, get Whip proficiency from Bladesinger). The bonus to Concentration isn't bad either.


Oh yeah, and Bladesinger should make some use of SCAGtrips; while they don't work with your Extra Attack, there are times when they are better than hitting twice (basically whenever you aren't adding riders to your attacks). Level 5 Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade have the extra die so they're plain better than your basic attack (you get Extra Attack on 6). 6-10 your Extra Attack will generally be better but there are times you want to Greenflame Blade or Booming Blade instead (damage type matters or you want to bowl out that annoying Goblin or whatever). Then on level 11 you get Tenser's but also improvements to BB/GFB; whenever you use Tenser's you want to Extra Attack but otherwise BB and GFB are very competitive. Up until level 14 where your Bladesong also outscales them up until level 17.

In short, you have reasons to use both so I'd just burn two cantrips known into having all the options for how to skin the troll. And War Caster makes your OAs sting. BB is the best OA attack in the game. I might even consider War Caster over Res: Con (something I do pretty much never except on Arcana Clerics) here.


Except blade-singing is a very limited resource. 2 times a day, 1 minute each.

2 times per short rest, 1 minute each. That's by default assumptions about 6 times per day, or 6 encounters. Your armor, weapon and extra attack proficiencies as well as spells work fine without it too so you can even fight without Bladesong just fine; you'll just have lower AC and on level 14, a bit lower damage.

[DarknessEternal]

Honestly, I've only cast Shield like... twice. The standing AC is so high that so few attacks get through I'm normally willing to just take the hit.

Bladesingers have no standing high AC. They get a very temporary bonus to AC that does not cover nearly enough of an adventuring day.

[Klorox]

Bladesingers have no standing high AC. They get a very temporary bonus to AC that does not cover nearly enough of an adventuring day.

Is that your experience or are you speculating?

[cutlery]

I've only played from 1-4 so far, but it's quite strong - because wizard is strong. A longbow is your go-to tool for levels 1-2 or so (high elf or helf with weapon training - worth it for the short sword proficiency, too); save the bladesong for when you have to use it rather than opening with it. Pick up at least one ranged cantrip so you can do ranged things without dropping bladesong, should you want to. With more spell slots, though, you can throw up mirror image and shadow blade and go to town around levels 3-4; especially if you can exploit elven accuracy in dim light.

My only concern so far is that after level 15 or so, all the nice magic is basic high level wizard stuff. I think for late tier 3 and tier 4, it will feel more like a wizard than anything else, with bladesong used more as a defensive AC boost. You might get to cut something weak every now and then, but it feels like a very lopsided Gish.

I'm trying to cobble together an EK or EK/Abjurer build for a different campaign for this reason (or perhaps even a homebrew ranger or paladin int-based arcanist). Bladesinger is good, but its more wizard than anything. The light armor limitation prevents the archetype from being that useful for an EK combo, too (assuming you are stat-limited enough for medium or heavy armor to be attractive). If you've got the stats to pump Int, Con, and Dex, though, it's nice.

[Man_Over_Game]

I feel like a lot of the Bladesinger benefits are just things they should have tacked on the Eldritch Knight.

What most people want out of a Gish is someone that buffs themselves or uses magical sword attacks or casts Jump to attack a flying enemy, or something like that.

But the thing is, most buff spells aren't very good if you can cast something else (like Flaming Sphere or Wall of Fire), and you don't want your melee characters to rely on Concentration since they're the ones taking the brunt of the damage.

Which is why it seems really dumb for the Bladesinger to be given all of these things that would help a melee caster (Concentration bonuses, increased AC, increased mobility) while the Eldritch Knight does not.

An easy fix would have just been to replace the EK's weapon bonding with a bonus to Concentration Checks equal to Proficiency or Intelligence, since they already have good AC.



But, as a result of poor planning, nobody got what they want, when the Bladesinger could have all been made with just a better-designed Eldritch Knight and some tacked-on Wizard levels.

[ThatoneGuy84]

Played it 1-17
Was extremely enjoyable, felt alittle more caster.
One change my DM made to make it feel alittle better melee wise was instead of second attack at 6, swapped it with Eldrich knight "when you cast a cantrip, you can bonos action attack"
Felt better for the Gish, thou its a bit homebrewy.

[Segev]

Does a splash of fighter - in any number of levels you feel necessary or maximal - add anything to Bladesigner? Or if you're going to have fighter/wizard, are you better off with a different wizard subclass?

[Man_Over_Game]

Does a splash of fighter - in any number of levels you feel necessary or maximal - add anything to Bladesigner? Or if you're going to have fighter/wizard, are you better off with a different wizard subclass?

Well, Bladesinger only works with non-strength, non-shield builds, due to the Bladesinging requirements, but War Wizard or Abjuration helps compensate for those concerns with little loss.

However, 1 level of Fighter does give you an extra +1 AC, Constitution Proficiency, and a healing option, 2 levels gives you Action Surge to burst out a massive advantage on the first turn, and 4 gives you a casting level for spell slots, more learned spells, and a feat (going to just 3 is not worth it, as you basically get a caster level instead of a Wizard level).

For a true "Gish" playstyle, where you are a melee combatant that enhances himself with magic, I'd probably for roughly a 2:1 ratio or a 1:1 ratio, of Fighter:Wizard, and choosing to go with War Wizard instead of Bladesinger, prioritizing getting to level 5 as an Eldritch Knight before taking Wizard levels.

[Segev]

Well, Bladesinger only works with non-strength, non-shield builds, due to the Bladesinging requirements, but War Wizard or Abjuration helps compensate for those concerns with little loss.

However, 1 level of Fighter does give you an extra +1 AC, Constitution Proficiency, and a healing option, 2 levels gives you Action Surge to burst out a massive advantage on the first turn, and 4 gives you a casting level for spell slots, more learned spells, and a feat (going to just 3 is not worth it, as you basically get a caster level instead of a Wizard level).

For a true "Gish" playstyle, where you are a melee combatant that enhances himself with magic, I'd probably for roughly a 2:1 ratio or a 1:1 ratio, of Fighter:Wizard, and choosing to go with War Wizard instead of Bladesinger, prioritizing getting to level 5 as an Eldritch Knight before taking Wizard levels.

So it sounds like Bladesinger is redundant with Fighter levels, which is understandable; the way people are talking about it here, it's a caster first, with a little bit of melee ability. (Incidentally, the Diviner in my D&D game is an elf, and uses the racial proficiencies to be moderately okay in melee when he absolutely has to be.)

For a true "Gish" playstyle, would the multiclass really be the ideal way to go, or would Eldritch Knight on a straight Fighter build be better?

[Klorox]

So it sounds like Bladesinger is redundant with Fighter levels, which is understandable; the way people are talking about it here, it's a caster first, with a little bit of melee ability. (Incidentally, the Diviner in my D&D game is an elf, and uses the racial proficiencies to be moderately okay in melee when he absolutely has to be.)

For a true "Gish" playstyle, would the multiclass really be the ideal way to go, or would Eldritch Knight on a straight Fighter build be better?

EK is still a fighter first, and if you multiclass some wizard, I think that would lead to a more true gish feel.

I really love war wizard with eldritch knight. Unfortunately, that will not work in the game I'm currently in.

[Man_Over_Game]

So it sounds like Bladesinger is redundant with Fighter levels, which is understandable; the way people are talking about it here, it's a caster first, with a little bit of melee ability. (Incidentally, the Diviner in my D&D game is an elf, and uses the racial proficiencies to be moderately okay in melee when he absolutely has to be.)

For a true "Gish" playstyle, would the multiclass really be the ideal way to go, or would Eldritch Knight on a straight Fighter build be better?

It's...fine? You just don't get the support you need to cast much on yourself, though, not without War Caster (which, given, you generally always have).

The real issue is the school limitations. You don't get access to Blur, Mirror Image, Haste, Blink, Enlarge/Reduce, Expeditious Retreat, Jump, Shadow Blade, or many other great spells for Fighters without spending one of your rare freebies, as you're basically limited to:


Abjuration (which is mostly just Shield, more AC, yaaaay.....)
Evocation (which compete with your attacks, and require saves/Intelligence...why?)


So the standalone Eldritch Knight is basically just a Samurai with less damage, more defense, and a bunch of random utility or some dumbfire Evocation spells that still work if the enemy saves.

Would have been so much cooler if the schools were Transmutation, Conjuration, or Illusion.

So. Much. Cooler.

[Segev]

EK is still a fighter first, and if you multiclass some wizard, I think that would lead to a more true gish feel.

I really love war wizard with eldritch knight. Unfortunately, that will not work in the game I'm currently in.

Why not? (Not doubting you, just wondering the circumstances.)

[DarknessEternal]

Is that your experience or are you speculating?

Experience. There are more encounters than 2 per short rest, and many of those combats last more than 10 rounds.

[Renbot]

As is often the case with these threads I'm going to say that my experience as of bladesinger player, and that of the blade singer I DM, is different. We are both full bladesinger and between mobility and shadowblade we are devastating melee skirmishers who maintain full wizard spell casting capabilities. Since we both play in campaigns with a lot of short rest dependent classes and multiple encounters per day we burn through our spells much more slowly than a standard wizard because so much of our offense is taken care of via shadowblade. Very few things are resistant to psychic damage and being at advantage on attacks about half the time is amazing.

The mobile feat is the key to this build and warcaster don't suck neither, although if you go elf you may want to go for super advantage.

Most importantly it is a blast to play. None of this hiding in the back casting a couple fireballs and then begging for a long rest.

[Throne12]

If you have a 13 charisma I would take 2 level in paladin for that nice smite. You also get a fighting style and a little bump of hp. This is only if your playing str over dex.

[Klorox]

Why not? (Not doubting you, just wondering the circumstances.)

DM is insisting on *starting* single classed, and although multiclassing is an option, I'd need to take time out of game to study to learn wizardy.

[Gtdead]

I've played a bladesinger on a party with a monk, a druid and a sorcerer up to lvl 6 I think. Since we didn't have a dedicated frontliner and there was a sorcerer to do some castery stuff, I picked GFB and Blur and was playing mostly as a frontliner. The experience was very pleasant. GFB was very reliable, and Bladesong along with Blur made me extremely durable. I hardly remember getting hit at all. I used the familiar a few times to give myself advantage on attacks against stronger enemies but not too much cause I didn't want the DM to target it. I have to say though that I was always a bit anxious due to low health.

I don't believe that this is the best way to play the class, but he stood his ground really well. I've also whiteroomed the class quite a bit against randomly generated deadly encounters and I consider it the most reliable wizard.

[Man_Over_Game]

DM is insisting on *starting* single classed, and although multiclassing is an option, I'd need to take time out of game to study to learn wizardy.

Lol, technically everyone starts single-classed.

[stoutstien]

Glass cannons that end up playing like any other wizard in my experience. Not like that's a bad thing.

[AvvyR]

Experience. There are more encounters than 2 per short rest, and many of those combats last more than 10 rounds.

I mean, maybe you're playing games with 6+ threatening combat encounters a day that last more than 10 rounds, but you can't possibly think that's the standard, right?


Glass cannons that end up playing like any other wizard in my experience. Not like that's a bad thing.

Glass must be harder than steel where you come from.

[stoutstien]

Glass must be harder than steel where you come from.

Not really. All it takes is a bad initiative roll or a string of bad luck to put the bladesinger in a rough spot. They have very good avoidance and some decent mitigation but in the end it is more effective if the wizard isn't hanging out in a position to be targeted frequently.
It's a lot of set up and more MaD than something like an Abjuration wizard that picked up medium armor and shield prof from somewhere.

In my experience they end up playing like any other wizard with an added layer of defense or they try to act like a front line gish and burn out faster than your average sorcidian.

*My view is based on play that sees it's fair share of anti-magic tactics being used by NPCs so dispel, counterspell, and general preparation can greatly limit how impactful normal strategies work.*

[Hael]

In my experience they end up playing like any other wizard with an added layer of defense or they try to act like a front line gish and burn out faster than your average sorcidian.


In my experience, they were stronger than most wizard subclasses early game, and could be played melee range. Somewhere between tier 2-3, the optimal play changes and reverts to sitting back and casting spells like a standard wizard. At that point, you are a wizard with high AC, but lacking a lot of the more powerful subclass features.

Melee range is a trap late game and should be used sparingly, and I was a bit disappointed with that fact.

All in all it’s a very strong character, but then it’s not really competing with martials, but rather other wizard subclasses, and in that regard it’s a bit lacking compared to some of the best choices (chronurgy/illusion/divination etc).

[Tempist]

As is often the case with these threads I'm going to say that my experience as of bladesinger player, and that of the blade singer I DM, is different. We are both full bladesinger and between mobility and shadowblade we are devastating melee skirmishers who maintain full wizard spell casting capabilities. Since we both play in campaigns with a lot of short rest dependent classes and multiple encounters per day we burn through our spells much more slowly than a standard wizard because so much of our offense is taken care of via shadowblade. Very few things are resistant to psychic damage and being at advantage on attacks about half the time is amazing.

The mobile feat is the key to this build and warcaster don't suck neither, although if you go elf you may want to go for super advantage.

Most importantly it is a blast to play. None of this hiding in the back casting a couple fireballs and then begging for a long rest.

My concern with Bladesingers is that no matter how high your CON is, your HP is going to be pretty crappy. And the issue with crappy HP is that crits happen, and they can do a lot of damage. Unlike actual martials, a bad crit can be game ending for a Bladesinger.

[Klorox]

My concern with Bladesingers is that no matter how high your CON is, your HP is going to be pretty crappy. And the issue with crappy HP is that crits happen, and they can do a lot of damage. Unlike actual martials, a bad crit can be game ending for a Bladesinger.

True. Lucky might be a more important feat for bladesingers than war caster. Or a close second.

-----

I had my first session tonight as a bladesinger and I had an absolute blast (level 5).

I felt like I could do anything. I was like a fly: I was really hard to hit in combat, but two hits got through and I was at 1
HP.

I had a flaming sphere/booming blade combo going (I chose war caster at level 4). I had mirror image up a lot and I kept burning shield spells when they'd hit my 19 AC.

I've always loved wizards, but I always wished they could fight a bit. This class is great. It didn't feel quite as martial as my 2e fighter/mage with the bladesinger kit, but he felt close.

[Alek]

Hi all just starting a new Bladesinger.

Besides all the option we already know I'm curious about a feat.
I was planning (If I have decent stats rolled) to take Tough instead of /resilient to get almost a D8 of hp every level.
I won't die if I loose concentration and with blade singer +int for concentration I don't care too much.
Having a +2 hp every level and taking the standard from a D6 will get me close to the standard of a D8.

Overall I think is still one of the best subclasses as none of the others gives me so much versatility while remaining a full caster Wizard.

Don't want to go full melee or multiclass I know that I won't be as strong as paladins, hex blade or fighters on melee.

As for cantrips I might prefer GFB instead of Booming cause it make a lot of noise lol

[AvvyR]

True. Lucky might be a more important feat for bladesingers than war caster. Or a close second.

I wouldn't put War Caster as a particularly high priority for a Bladesinger. I think I have a +11 to concentration saves, and the number of times I take 26+ damage in one hit while concentrating in order to even have to roll is low. The 10th level feature further decreases your odds of even having to roll concentration. The main thing War Caster gets you is the Booming Blade opportunity attack, which is cool, but I tend to save my reactions for Absorb Elements or maybe Shield. A Bladesinger's weakness is their HP bar, and things that drain your HP while bypassing your AC are what you need to always be wary of. A 5th level Magic Missile or bad Lightning Bolt or dragon breath save can put you on the floor fast where you're dealing much less damage than the extra d8's on your opportunity attack earned you.

[shipiaozi]

A quite weak subclass unless your DM banned multiclass. The subclass itself is fine but:

1. You need to choose elf, which isn't a good wizard class to begin with
2. Much lower AC than normal Wizard X/Cleric 1 build
3. Ability want you to pick intelligence+2, which is a horrible choice for wizard.

[Klorox]

I wouldn't put War Caster as a particularly high priority for a Bladesinger. I think I have a +11 to concentration saves, and the number of times I take 26+ damage in one hit while concentrating in order to even have to roll is low. The 10th level feature further decreases your odds of even having to roll concentration. The main thing War Caster gets you is the Booming Blade opportunity attack, which is cool, but I tend to save my reactions for Absorb Elements or maybe Shield. A Bladesinger's weakness is their HP bar, and things that drain your HP while bypassing your AC are what you need to always be wary of. A 5th level Magic Missile or bad Lightning Bolt or dragon breath save can put you on the floor fast where you're dealing much less damage than the extra d8's on your opportunity attack earned you.
It just combos so well with flaming sphere, and it basically guarantees I won't lose concentration.

I can see the argument for resilient CON (more HP and better concentration saves), elven accuracy, and boosting DEX or INT as well. IMHO, there isn't a clear cut "best" option.




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A quite weak subclass unless your DM banned multiclass. The subclass itself is fine but:You contradict yourself.

1. You need to choose elf, which isn't a good wizard class to begin with
I'm going to assume you meant race. The only PHB races better than high elf for the wizard class are gnomes and variant humans. Besides, race requirement for bladesinger is an optional rule.

2. Much lower AC than normal Wizard X/Cleric 1 buildA level 2 bladesinger with mage armor has a 19 AC (16 DEX and INT) when bladesong is active. A level 2 cleric/wizard has an 18 AC (Scale mail/shield/14 DEX). Even if you decide to save spell slots and go with studded leather armor instead of casting mage armor, then both characters have the same AC. Additionally, where are you taking points from to get that WIS to 13? You'll also be losing a wizard level.

3. Ability want you to pick intelligence+2, which is a horrible choice for wizard.I don't know what you're trying to say here.

[Cwyll]

it's a great subclass; works really well. Best taken straight IMO, as you just want the spell slots.
I played to level 13 so far, and have not really had resource issues; just decide if you're going for the melee side or holding back if your DM likes to run 3+ encounters a day (with or without short rests).
I took war caster, +2 int and then spell sniper as my feats (4 and 8 and 12) so that i could AoO with booming blade using my whip from 10 feet, and i survive pretty damn well with an AC up to 24 as/if needed.

[Blood of Gaea]

I player of mine ran a 7 Bladesinger/3 Battlesmith in a short campaign (three or four sessions) a bit ago, and it seems to be a reasonably good combination. They were a Mark of Warding Dwarf.

I'm not sure I'd say it's _better_ than 10 levels of Wizard would be, but he seemed to do well enough in the front line with the Paladin.

[DarknessEternal]

I player of mine ran a 7 Bladesinger/...They were a Mark of Abjuration Dwarf.


Wachoo talkin' bout, Willis?

[shipiaozi]

It just combos so well with flaming sphere, and it basically guarantees I won't lose concentration.

I can see the argument for resilient CON (more HP and better concentration saves), elven accuracy, and boosting DEX or INT as well. IMHO, there isn't a clear cut "best" option.




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You contradict yourself.

I'm going to assume you meant race. The only PHB races better than high elf for the wizard class are gnomes and variant humans. Besides, race requirement for bladesinger is an optional rule.
A level 2 bladesinger with mage armor has a 19 AC (16 DEX and INT) when bladesong is active. A level 2 cleric/wizard has an 18 AC (Scale mail/shield/14 DEX). Even if you decide to save spell slots and go with studded leather armor instead of casting mage armor, then both characters have the same AC. Additionally, where are you taking points from to get that WIS to 13? You'll also be losing a wizard level.
I don't know what you're trying to say here.

In general, bladesinger looks good but in fact quite weak(about bottom 30% wizard subclass) because it force you into so many horrible choice.
Elf is a horrible wizard race, in PHB it is worse than variant human, gnome, half-elf, dwarf and halfling.
Wizard SHOULD multiclass into Cleric 1, and any multiclass is incompatible with bladesinger ability. Bladesingler do not have bladesong in about 35% of the battle, ane even with bladesong their AC would be low after players get better armor.
Medium or Heavy armour/Shield/Staff is the best combat style in 5E, and it is incompatible with bladesingler.
Wizard don't need intelligence+2, yet bladesinger want you to pick intelligence+2 instead of good feat.

[Blood of Gaea]

Wachoo talkin' bout, Willis?
Sorry, Mark of Warding Dwarf.

[Jerrykhor]

In general, bladesinger looks good but in fact quite weak(about bottom 30% wizard subclass) because it force you into so many horrible choice.
Elf is a horrible wizard race, in PHB it is worse than variant human, gnome, half-elf, dwarf and halfling.
Wizard SHOULD multiclass into Cleric 1, and any multiclass is incompatible with bladesinger ability. Bladesingler do not have bladesong in about 35% of the battle, ane even with bladesong their AC would be low after players get better armor.
Medium or Heavy armour/Shield/Staff is the best combat style in 5E, and it is incompatible with bladesingler.
Wizard don't need intelligence+2, yet bladesinger want you to pick intelligence+2 instead of good feat.

I think you're underselling Bladesinger too much. Just because it doesnt encourage you to pick meta options doesn't mean its bad. Bladesong is a good buff that provides many nice goodies that any wizard would appreciate. They can hold their own in melee, keep up spell concentration like a boss, and have the extra speed to kite if needed. The only thing i find underwhelming is their high level features (level 10 and 14).

Not being the absolute best does not put them at the bottom 30%.

[Eldariel]

In general, bladesinger looks good but in fact quite weak(about bottom 30% wizard subclass) because it force you into so many horrible choice.
Elf is a horrible wizard race, in PHB it is worse than variant human, gnome, half-elf, dwarf and halfling.
Wizard SHOULD multiclass into Cleric 1, and any multiclass is incompatible with bladesinger ability. Bladesingler do not have bladesong in about 35% of the battle, ane even with bladesong their AC would be low after players get better armor.
Medium or Heavy armour/Shield/Staff is the best combat style in 5E, and it is incompatible with bladesingler.
Wizard don't need intelligence+2, yet bladesinger want you to pick intelligence+2 instead of good feat.

Multiclassing Cleric 1 puts you 1 level behind in acquiring gamechanging effects like Wall of Force, Contingency, Magic Jar, Force Cage, etc. As a Wizard, that's horribly ill-advised unless you're going past level 17 (where for all intents and purposes it no longer matters).

[cutlery]

In general, bladesinger looks good but in fact quite weak

Bladesinger is one of the better archetypes for fixing how weak wizards can feel in Tier 1.

The downside is how MAD they are, but if you have the stats for one, it isn't bad at all. Mirror image goes a long way with bladesong going.

Later on, you'll probably just be a wizard, but how many wizard archetype features are really core to the class in tier 4, when simulacrum, wish, power word kill, and meteor swarm are on the table, and the newness of disintegrate has worn off? (Of course, you can case that disintegrate five times in an adventuring day)

[Satori01]

There is also a great likelihood that if the Bladesinger is reprinted in Tasha's Cauldron of Retroconned Greyhawk Elements....the racial requirement will be absent.
SCAG already discusses doing just that, if the subclass is used outside the Forgotten Realms.

Mirror Image and Shadowblade and Blink is a substantial investment of spells.
Even devoting Arcane Recovery resources to this strategy results in being able to use the above spells this way probably up to 4 combats per day.

Song of Defense uses even more spell slots.

The subclass reads fine, and clearly many people enjoy playing it, but the Bladesinger appears to burn through spell slots fairly quickly.

I imagine Temp HP would help it greatly. Access to an Artillerist artificer or someone with the Inspiring Leader feat would help the low HP issue.

[Segev]

I’m sorry, DWARF is a better wizard race than elf?

I think you’re overvaluing melee competence on your wizards. And undervaluing Intelligence and Dexterity.

[cutlery]

I imagine Temp HP would help it greatly. Access to an Artillerist artificer or someone with the Inspiring Leader feat would help the low HP issue.

Well, there's always False Life, but that costs more slots.

I'm really enjoying mine, but if you lean into the melee abilities early it's a different sort of wizard. Shadow Blade is great (even greater if you're in the underdark or an otherwise always dimly lit place), but you don't need to use it every combat. You might get more use out of a shatter depending on the setup - I figure shadowblade is for high HP, high-ac enemies, especially with elven advantage (and you can make use of upcasted shadow blade later, too - should you wish).

The real question will be when it is no longer a good idea to stand next to those high hp, high ac enemies, but blink might help with that - of course, by 9th level there is greater invisibility (which takes the place of shadow blade)...

I think 1-3 spells on defenses then melee is probably similar in terms of resource cost to 1-3 evocation spells both in terms of combat effectiveness and resource use - it's just a different style. The round or two to switch those defenses on also usually results in another melee character being in the thick of it, so you're less likely to get surrounded early.

Bladesingers shine best when there isn't a full fighter in the group, I suspect.

But, I have few illusions about what it will be like to play above 12th level (basically, a wizard, with bladesong in reserve for when melee is unavoidable).

[Eldariel]

Well, there's always False Life, but that costs more slots.

I'm really enjoying mine, but if you lean into the melee abilities early it's a different sort of wizard. Shadow Blade is great (even greater if you're in the underdark or an otherwise always dimly lit place), but you don't need to use it every combat. You might get more use out of a shatter depending on the setup - I figure shadowblade is for high HP, high-ac enemies, especially with elven advantage (and you can make use of upcasted shadow blade later, too - should you wish).

The real question will be when it is no longer a good idea to stand next to those high hp, high ac enemies, but blink might help with that - of course, by 9th level there is greater invisibility (which takes the place of shadow blade)...

I think 1-3 spells on defenses then melee is probably similar in terms of resource cost to 1-3 evocation spells both in terms of combat effectiveness and resource use - it's just a different style. The round or two to switch those defenses on also usually results in another melee character being in the thick of it, so you're less likely to get surrounded early.

Bladesingers shine best when there isn't a full fighter in the group, I suspect.

But, I have few illusions about what it will be like to play above 12th level (basically, a wizard, with bladesong in reserve for when melee is unavoidable).

Actually, on 11 the biggest melee buffs (Magic Jar, Contingency, Tenser's) kick in and completely revolutionize your melee ability. That's not a bad level to hack'n'slash.

[DarknessEternal]

Sorry, Mark of Warding Dwarf.

I wasn't aware Mark of Warding Dwarf was a kind of Elf.

If you're contention that something against the rules is good, it's not a very valuable opinion in an online forum that doesn't share all of your houserules.

[cutlery]

Actually, on 11 the biggest melee buffs (Magic Jar, Contingency, Tenser's) kick in and completely revolutionize your melee ability. That's not a bad level to hack'n'slash.

It isn't terrible, and I am a huge fan of Steel Wind Strike (which you'll be able to do a little more often at 11th), but once disintegrate is in the picture, the balance start to change, and things only spiral up from there.

Disintegrate is cool, don't get me wrong, but turning someone into a pile of dust with it isn't very gishy. Magic jar isn't really a gishy thing to do, either, imho - it is certainly cool, but that's pure wizardry.

FWIW, I think Tenser's is of less value for a bladesinger than for other wizards; especially abjurers or war mages; you can bladesong while it is up, but you can't use other concentration spells. Why not just bladesong and buzzsaw away with a 3rd or 4th level false life and a 5th level shadow blade (as well as mirror image and blink).

I don't think I'd even take the spell on my bladesinger, unless I happened to find it.

[Eldariel]

It isn't terrible, and I am a huge fan of Steel Wind Strike (which you'll be able to do a little more often at 11th), but once disintegrate is in the picture, the balance start to change, and things only spiral up from there.

Disintegrate is cool, don't get me wrong, but turning someone into a pile of dust with it isn't very gishy. Magic jar isn't really a gishy thing to do, either, imho - it is certainly cool, but that's pure wizardry.

FWIW, I think Tenser's is of less value for a bladesinger than for other wizards; especially abjurers or war mages; you can bladesong while it is up, but you can't use other concentration spells. Why not just bladesong and buzzsaw away with a 3rd or 4th level false life and a 5th level shadow blade (as well as mirror image and blink).

I don't think I'd even take the spell on my bladesinger, unless I happened to find it.

Getting Advantage on all attacks and +2d12 force damage is generally quite worth it on a martial character. As for Magic Jar, it heavily enhances your melee combat prowess all day at zero cost to your character build resources.

[cutlery]

Getting Advantage on all attacks and +2d12 force damage is generally quite worth it on a martial character. As for Magic Jar, it heavily enhances your melee combat prowess all day at zero cost to your character build resources.

Other than bladesong, a high-dex wizard of another school would get about as much use of tensers (and get more for it, as they start from a point with less martial ability). You can similar defensive ability with a few lower level spells and save that high level slot for, well, something bigger.

Likewise, magic jar bypasses all or most of the bladesinger's innate melee ability (you get the physical stats of the new creature, and can't double up on extra attack), and like with Tenser's if you use bladesong while using it then it is spent.


I'd much rather use contingency, chain lightning, mass suggestion, a summon, true seeing, wall of ice, etc.

Using your one 6th level slot to improve an area you've already devoted your whole archetype to doesn't seem the best use of the slot, to me. Also, you can't misty step or far step to safety while using tensers.

If Tenser's extra attack stacked with the 6th level bladesinger attack, I'd feel differently - but it does not.

[Eldariel]

Other than bladesong, a high-dex wizard of another school would get about as much use of tensers (and get more for it, as they start from a point with less martial ability). You can similar defensive ability with a few lower level spells and save that high level slot for, well, something bigger.

Likewise, magic jar bypasses all or most of the bladesinger's innate melee ability (you get the physical stats of the new creature, and can't double up on extra attack), and like with Tenser's if you use bladesong while using it then it is spent.

Anyone in melee really benefits of high AC and Concentration though. Song of Victory on top of that goes really nicely. Magic Jar can get you very advantageous attacks which go great with Song of Victory. It's not so much about the number of benefits you get as the end product.

[cutlery]

Anyone in melee really benefits of high AC and Concentration though. Song of Victory on top of that goes really nicely. Magic Jar can get you very advantageous attacks which go great with Song of Victory. It's not so much about the number of benefits you get as the end product.

I don't think it's as valuable as another 6th level spell, and I also suspect that if you wander around co-opting creature's bodies with it on a regular basis, things are going to happen to you.

One minute cast time is a lot of prep, too, so you aren't using it on enemies once initiative gets rolled.

If you're a well-built bladesinger, I think finding enemies with a dexterity high enough to make their ac while under bladesong better than yours isn't trivial. Ditto for a creature that does markedly more damage. Some DMs might let you get away with that once in a blue moon, others might not. Hanging out for 24 hours to find a new target when the possession is resisted isn't that great for the party, either. Situational, and much better for a BBeG than a player.

Unless, of course, you're rolling around as a bladesinger with a bad dex. But why would you do that?

[Eldariel]

I don't think it's as valuable as another 6th level spell, and I also suspect that if you wander around co-opting creature's bodies with it on a regular basis, things are going to happen to you.

One minute cast time is a lot of prep, too, so you aren't using it on enemies once initiative gets rolled.

If you're a well-built bladesinger, I think finding enemies with a dexterity high enough to make their ac while under bladesong better than yours isn't trivial. Ditto for a creature that does markedly more damage. Some DMs might let you get away with that once in a blue moon, others might not. Hanging out for 24 hours to find a new target when the possession is resisted isn't that great for the party, either. Situational, and much better for a BBeG than a player.

Unless, of course, you're rolling around as a bladesinger with a bad dex. But why would you do that?

You max Int first since that's what Bladesingers do. Then you go steal e.g. a Shadar-Kai body (note, Magic Jar is permanent so you permanently have a body that has +4d12 on damage rolls and such) and don't even need to touch your Dex or Con. You get those from the stolen body. You don't need to steal more than one body until that body dies. Then you get to abuse your Extra Attack or Multiattack on your new chassis with better stats and bonuses to everything you do. If you're already melee-minded, that's just nice.

[cutlery]

You max Int first since that's what Bladesingers do. Then you go steal e.g. a Shadar-Kai body (note, Magic Jar is permanent so you permanently have a body that has +4d12 on damage rolls and such) and don't even need to touch your Dex or Con. You get those from the stolen body. You don't need to steal more than one body until that body dies. Then you get to abuse your Extra Attack or Multiattack on your new chassis with better stats and bonuses to everything you do. If you're already melee-minded, that's just nice.

Neatly shut down by a dispel, and if the body dies you're in much greater risk of death than you would be normally; and as previously mentioned when you're looking for a body and fail you're useless for 24 hours.

And all that to still be worse at melee than a fighter.

[Satori01]

You max Int first since that's what Bladesingers do. Then you go steal e.g. a Shadar-Kai body (note, Magic Jar is permanent so you permanently have a body that has +4d12 on damage rolls and such) and don't even need to touch your Dex or Con. You get those from the stolen body. You don't need to steal more than one body until that body dies. Then you get to abuse your Extra Attack or Multiattack on your new chassis with better stats and bonuses to everything you do. If you're already melee-minded, that's just nice.

Firstly the Shadar Kai at best have a Dex of 18, and physical stats that are not so great. 8 STR and 14 Con is not impressive.

Secondly the bonus powers that a say a Shadow Dancer gets to a spiked chain do not necessarily translate to being something the body does naturally. A Shadow Dancer has presumably trained for a long time to be so adept with a spiked chain.

Muscle Memory is not going to allow a Wizard Personality to just pick up and start using a Spike Chain, when they don't have proficiency with the weapon. It certainly will not account for the skill needed to do 22 extra points of Necrotic damage on a hit.

You also can't Bladesong with a two handed spiked chain.

All in All, using Magic Jar with Shadar Kai bodies is just not very practical, impressive, or truly that effective.

[Eldariel]

Neatly shut down by a dispel, and if the body dies you're in much greater risk of death than you would be normally; and as previously mentioned when you're looking for a body and fail you're useless for 24 hours.

And all that to still be worse at melee than a fighter.

Worse? Be a Gloom Weaver and you have 3 attacks one of which is a Booming Blade all carrying 4d12 damage extra. Do the math. Way, way better than a Fighter, but that's just 'cause Fighter sucks. If they try to Dispel you, you can Counterspell or Teleport + Invisibility. 109 damage per turn is decent if not amazing on level 11 and if you cast Tenser's, that goes up substantially. If you have Polearm Master, even more so.

Note, it's spelt out that you use a single shadow spear one-handed (there are separate rules for it two-handed) so that all works just fine.


Firstly the Shadar Kai at best have a Dex of 18, and physical stats that are not so great. 8 STR and 14 Con is not impressive.

Secondly the bonus powers that a say a Shadow Dancer gets to a spiked chain do not necessarily translate to being something the body does naturally. A Shadow Dancer has presumably trained for a long time to be so adept with a spiked chain.

Muscle Memory is not going to allow a Wizard Personality to just pick up and start using a Spike Chain, when they don't have proficiency with the weapon. It certainly will not account for the skill needed to do 22 extra points of Necrotic damage on a hit.

You also can't Bladesong with a two handed spiked chain.

All in All, using Magic Jar with Shadar Kai bodies is just not very practical, impressive, or truly that effective.

Gloom Weaver (https://5e.tools/bestiary.html#gloom%20weaver_mtf) for example has 18 Dex, multiattack including two attacks and a spell with 4d12 rider on each hit, invisible teleport reaction and 104 HP + decent Con and Dex saves. Overall I'd say that's pretty good for instance. Who cares about Str? You're a Dex character with teleports and everything and if you hit 3 times a turn at 1d6+4+4d12 and once at 1d6+4+2d8+4d12 that's already pretty good and that's just your action; you still have a Bonus Action left.

Magic Jar is explicit:
"Your game Statistics are replaced by the Statistics of the creature though you retain your Alignment and your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You retain the benefit of your own class feature."

So you get everything except class features and since Shadar-Kai don't have classes they don't have class features either so you basically just get everything but the spellcasting (which you have no use for in the first place). You can of course rule it how you will but the rules as written are pretty clear on this.


EDIT: Since I'm expounding their virtues anyways, just a quick look at things that are not mental stats, alignment or class features:
"Burden of Time.

Beasts and humanoids, other than shadar-kai, have disadvantage on saving throws while within 10 feet of the gloom weaver."

So a free disadvantage on all enemy saving throws.

"Fey Ancestry.

The gloom weaver has advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can't put it to sleep."

Free immunity to sleep (and immunity to exhaustion and charm in the stat block too)

Darkvision 60', 8/18/14 stat line, 16 HD (so if you ever get an Amulet of Health you go up to 147 HP), etc. It's just a good deal. Soul Monger is also nice. Some Orc/Gith bodies also get some real nice abilities and so on and so forth. Magic Jar just never runs dry of good targets.

[DarknessEternal]

Do you play in a world where there's a Magic Jar's R Us?

This is even less likely than assuming you'll find a specific Legendary magic item.

[Eldariel]

Do you play in a world where there's a Magic Jar's R Us?

This is even less likely than assuming you'll find a specific Legendary magic item.

Of course not but most DMs throw humanoids at you and you have Scrying and Teleportation and such to hunt down what you want. It's not hard for a Wizard to find what they want and go get it.

[Segev]

Do you play in a world where there's a Magic Jar's R Us?

This is even less likely than assuming you'll find a specific Legendary magic item.

You're a wizard. Pick it as one of your 2-free-spells-per-level.

[cutlery]

All in All, using Magic Jar with Shadar Kai bodies is just not very practical, impressive, or truly that effective.

Plus you're going to have to pop out every couple days to feed and water your original body; sooner or later the captured host will resist an attempted possession and you're stuck for 24 hours with an irate captive.


Just summon a creature with the slot, for crying out loud.

[monks_are_op]

I'll be playing one for the first time starting next week. I think we'll go from level 4-10 over the course of this campaign.

The last time I played a bladesinger was when it was a 2e fighter/mage kit.

How does this one compare?

Haven't yet gotten to play a 2e bladesinger, so I can't compare, but I've really enjoyed the 5e version. I'm playing one at 8th-level at the moment, and it's nice getting Extra Attack and full spellcasting.

[Eldariel]

Plus you're going to have to pop out every couple days to feed and water your original body; sooner or later the captured host will resist an attempted possession and you're stuck for 24 hours with an irate captive.

What, are you even reading the spell? They don't get a new save. Magic Jar is permanent. The only way restriction is that you can try to possess the same person 1/24 hours. But that doesn't matter if you force them to fail the save through whatever means: they're possessed until the Magic Jar ends and as it's not even Concentration you just make sure that's "never".

People undersell the spell a lot but it's really just damn good. Yeah, you can put your own body in stasis: try sequester or a private demiplane or whatever. Even Gentle Repose, a 2nd level spell, suffices for 10 days. Though the minutes of the spell don't actually suggest your body begins spontaneously decomposing so that may not be even necessary.


Really, the spell is no downside, all upside. Just get a better body damnit and call it a day.

[Valmark]

What, are you even reading the spell? They don't get a new save. Magic Jar is permanent. The only way restriction is that you can try to possess the same person 1/24 hours. But that doesn't matter if you force them to fail the save through whatever means: they're possessed until the Magic Jar ends and as it's not even Concentration you just make sure that's "never".

People undersell the spell a lot but it's really just damn good. Yeah, you can put your own body in stasis: try sequester or a private demiplane or whatever. Even Gentle Repose, a 2nd level spell, suffices for 10 days. Though the minutes of the spell don't actually suggest your body begins spontaneously decomposing so that may not be even necessary.

Really, the spell is no downside, all upside. Just get a better body damnit and call it a day.

Except when you get dispelled and die istantly if you aren't within 100 feet of your body, that is. Potentially istant death from a third level spell doesn't look like a no downsides.

[Eldariel]

Except when you get dispelled and die istantly if you aren't within 100 feet of your body, that is. Potentially istant death from a third level spell doesn't look like a no downsides.

Counterspell and the reaction from your body and Contingency allow you to avoid Dispel pretty effortlessly most of the time. Once you hit 15 you're golden even if that does happen as you get to have Clones around: though even before then all it costs your party is a Revivify.

[Valmark]

Counterspell and the reaction from your body and Contingency allow you to avoid Dispel pretty effortlessly most of the time. Once you hit 15 you're golden even if that does happen as you get to have Clones around: though even before then all it costs your party is a Revivify.

True enough- I still wouldn't call it no downsides, but it's not quite as bad.

Though Revify isn't terribly lilely, since you do need the body (not sure how it interacts, but tecnically you'd need your original body to be Revified no?).

[Eldariel]

True enough- I still wouldn't call it no downsides, but it's not quite as bad.

Though Revify isn't terribly lilely, since you do need the body (not sure how it interacts, but tecnically you'd need your original body to be Revified no?).

Aye, you should definitely carry your original body around just so it doesn't randomly get possessed among other things. An extradimensional storage or such is generally a safe way to go about it.

[cutlery]

Aye, you should definitely carry your original body around just so it doesn't randomly get possessed among other things. An extradimensional storage or such is generally a safe way to go about it.

You'll need an extradimensional storage method with air, as the body is still breathing. It is in a catatonic state, not suspension.

The PHB/DMG isn't specific about this, but I don't see why a 30x30x30 demiplane will have air that renews any better than that in a bag of holding; so the body would expire there just as it would in a bag of holding, if it might take a bit more time for that to happen. The bag of holding won't work, as anything there runs out of air in 10 minutes.

Plus, between the jar and the body there are some distance concerns in the spell description. You might be stuck using a cart to carry the catatonic body around. You need the jar nearby too, because otherwise your soul can't return to it if and when the host dies; if you can't return to the jar you die. The jar on your person or in a cart is vulnerable to dispels. If your original body is more than 100 feet from the host if and when the jar is destroyed/dispelled, you die - so keeping the body in a demiplane isn't a good idea even if you could keep it alive.


This is a great deal of work (and spell slots) to be worse at melee than a fighter, and potentially more vulnerable than you'd be just as a bladesinger in your original body.


Of course not but most DMs throw humanoids at you and you have Scrying and Teleportation and such to hunt down what you want. It's not hard for a Wizard to find what they want and go get it.


Also, the 5th level version of teleport doesn't quite work in this way anymore. If we're tossing 7th level spells around, infinite simulacrum cheese is on the table, anyway.

[Eldariel]

This is a great deal of work (and spell slots) to be worse at melee than a fighter, and potentially more vulnerable than you'd be just as a bladesinger in your original body.

Okay, you must tell me, how is the Fighter a better combatant at this point? PAM/GWM Samurai is looking at 4 attacks at 2d6+5+10 each for a total of 22 damage; 88 if they all hit. How is that better than you just slamming for 110 damage plus casting spells?

[Valmark]

Okay, you must tell me, how is the Fighter a better combatant at this point? PAM/GWM Samurai is looking at 4 attacks at 2d6+5+10 each for a total of 22 damage; 88 if they all hit. How is that better than you just slamming for 110 damage plus casting spells?

How are you getting 110 damage from the gloomweaver?

Not that it doesn't deal high damage plus a spell, I'd pick that over said fighter, but how are you reaching that damage?

[cutlery]

How are you getting 110 damage from the gloomweaver?

Not that it doesn't deal high damage plus a spell, I'd pick that over said fighter, but how are you reaching that damage?

Plus the point of 4 attacks is that you have a better chance of hitting with some of them; assuming that everyone hits with everything all of the time isn't a reasonable simulation.

Also, scrying required the same plane of existence; Shadar Kai don't have a huge presence on the material plane, so you aren't finding them that way very easily, either, nor are you easy-mode teleporting to one to possess it.

[Eldariel]

How are you getting 110 damage from the gloomweaver?

Not that it doesn't deal high damage plus a spell, I'd pick that over said fighter, but how are you reaching that damage?

Two attacks with Shadow Spear + Booming Blade at 2d8 bonus. 1d6 + 4 + 4d12 each and 1d6+2d8+4+4d12 for the Booming Blade.



Plus the point of 4 attacks is that you have a better chance of hitting with some of them; assuming that everyone hits with everything all of the time isn't a reasonable simulation.

The Samurai literally has -5 to attacks. HE is the one with worse to hit. Okay, fine, let's just do the math against...say AC 19.

Gloom Weaver has +9 to hit (level 10+) as does the Samurai - 50% chance to hit AC 19. Samurai has Elven Advantage, attacks at -5. His chance of hitting AC 19 is thus 65,70% while the Gloom Weaver without Advantage has 55% to roll 10+. Further, Samurai has 14,26% of rolling a crit. Therefore the Samurai hits normally 51,44% of the time and critically 14,26%.


2d6+15 (4th hit taken by Fighting Spirit) at * 0.5144 + 3d6+15 * ,1426 = 14,9531 damage average, with 3x that being approximately 45.

(1d6+4+4d12) * ,45 + (2d6+4+8d12) * ,05 = 18,225
(1d6 + 4 + 4d12 + 2d8) * 0,45 + (2d6 + 4d8 + 8d12 + 4) * ,05 on the BB = 23,175

So 2x 18,225 + 23,175 = 59,625


So the Bladesinger does more damage without Bladesong assuming the most favourable circumstances for the Fighter and no buffs. It just isn't particularly close...

[cutlery]

Two attacks with Shadow Spear + Booming Blade at 2d8 bonus. 1d6 + 4 + 4d12 each and 1d6+2d8+4+4d12 for the Booming Blade.


If the Shadar Kai are even on the material plane, it's probably because they are sending an elite death squad for you. You can't teleport to them (until you are casting 7th level spells), you can't scry beyond the material plane, and I see no reason why one of their elites (a gloomweaver) would be wandering around alone for you to find.

If this whole strategy relies on you finding one particular statblock monster from a book that isn't even the MM, I think you know it is a stretch; and you haven't yet addressed the teleportation issue, the original body maintenance issue, or the revenge issue - if you can scry them, don't you think they'd use scrying to find their missing gloomweaver?

You might as well try to possess a Priestess of Lolth or Drizzt.

[Valmark]

Two attacks with Shadow Spear + Booming Blade at 2d8 bonus. 1d6 + 4 + 4d12 each and 1d6+2d8+4+4d12 for the Booming Blade.



Oh so wait, 110 damage already included the spell, not 110 damage in addition to the spell.

I mean, still good, but the wording made me think the numbers came from only the two attacks.

[Eldariel]

You might as well try to possess a Priestess of Lolth or Drizzt.

*shrug* Pick whomever you happen to have available. Bottomline, the spell is great.

[cutlery]

*shrug* Pick whomever you happen to have available. Bottomline, the spell is great.

Whatever you have available, indeed.

Scry and teleport isn't the same as just shopping online anymore. You can't just teleport to the creature you want, nor can you necessarily even scry one, and since this particular strategy requires a beefy statblock, people would notice when that creature was gone and come after you.

I suppose if your DM is a pushover, but this would be starting the doomsday clock in many games.

Also, the shadow spear is an item that you may nor many not know how to use. If it works like a spear, it is a simple weapon that wizards don't have proficiency with, so you are making those two shadow spear attacks without your proficiency bonus.

If you take spear as your one simple-or-martial at level 2 solely with the intent of stealing a gloomweaver, I'd say that triples the strength of the deathsquad that comes for you afterwards.

Meanwhile, you've successfully derailed perhaps a whole session of play just to die.

[Eldariel]

Whatever you have available, indeed.

Scry and teleport isn't the same as just shopping online anymore. You can't just teleport to the creature you want, nor can you necessarily even scry one, and since this particular strategy requires a beefy statblock, people would notice when that creature was gone and come after you.

I suppose if your DM is a pushover, but this would be starting the doomsday clock in many games.

Also, the shadow spear is an item that you may nor many not know how to use. If it works like a spear, it is a simple weapon that wizards don't have proficiency with, so you are making those two shadow spear attacks without your proficiency bonus.

If you take spear as your one simple-or-martial at level 2 solely with the intent of stealing a gloomweaver, I'd say that triples the strength of the deathsquad that comes for you afterwards.

Meanwhile, you've successfully derailed perhaps a whole session of play just to die.

*shrug* So take a body conveniently available. Orc, Shadar-Kai, Gith, whatever, take your worst enemy and turn them into an asset. I fail to see how that's somehow a negative. You literally just turbocharge yourself with NPC powers and the DM has a reason for the enemy to keep coming at you until they're all dead. Everyone wins.

[cutlery]

*shrug* So take a body conveniently available. Orc, Shadar-Kai, Gith, whatever, take your worst enemy and turn them into an asset. I fail to see how that's somehow a negative. You literally just turbocharge yourself with NPC powers and the DM has a reason for the enemy to keep coming at you until they're all dead. Everyone wins.

Because the bulk of your "better than a fighter" argument relies on it being that particular statblock.

While statblocks don't specifically have class levels, it's quite clear that many statblock humanoids with CRs above 3 have experience-based abilities rather like that, as opposed to innate powers. Any DM worth their salt would be well within their rights to grant you a more or less base humanoid host, no matter what tricks it had up it's sleeve. The Assassin statblock isn't a humanoid that was born knowing how to assassinate, it is a creature that learned how to do it. Those skills are lost when you shunt the soul to the jar. You'd have a dex of 16, though, hooray?

And if all of this is so that you can ignore dexterity and just use a host - how are you staying alive for the 11 levels necessary to get the spell in the first place?

Further, what if the rest of the party isn't ok with you using what is essentially the lich starter kit? What if it is a local crime?

You could attempt to do this to a local lord, too, just like you could start murdering shopkeepers rather than paying them.

[Edea]

I think my main problem with bladesinger's that I have to be elvish.

[cutlery]

I think my main problem with bladesinger's that I have to be elvish.

At least it is only elf-ish, and not necessarily full elf.

[Eldariel]

Because the bulk of your "better than a fighter" argument relies on it being that particular statblock.

While statblocks don't specifically have class levels, it's quite clear that many statblock humanoids with CRs above 3 have experience-based abilities rather like that, as opposed to innate powers. Any DM worth their salt would be well within their rights to grant you a more or less base humanoid host, no matter what tricks it had up it's sleeve. The Assassin statblock isn't a humanoid that was born knowing how to assassinate, it is a creature that learned how to do it. Those skills are lost when you shunt the soul to the jar. You'd have a dex of 16, though, hooray?

And if all of this is so that you can ignore dexterity and just use a host - how are you staying alive for the 11 levels necessary to get the spell in the first place?

Further, what if the rest of the party isn't ok with you using what is essentially the lich starter kit? What if it is a local crime?

You could attempt to do this to a local lord, too, just like you could start murdering shopkeepers rather than paying them.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here? That Bladesinger can't fight before Magic Jar? Yeah, Magic Jar is great but Bladesinger is great too so it all works out in the end. And yeah, the bodies the DM gives you are up to them but it's worth noting that NPCs don't generally have class in this edition so you tend to get basically everything.

[cutlery]

I don't even know what you're trying to say here? That Bladesinger can't fight before Magic Jar? Yeah, Magic Jar is great but Bladesinger is great too so it all works out in the end. And yeah, the bodies the DM gives you are up to them but it's worth noting that NPCs don't generally have class in this edition so you tend to get basically everything.

The better the bladesinger's stats before magic jar is available, they less they gain from it. Particularly when scry isn't a search engine and 5th level teleport isn't the 3/3.5e teleport.

You may be hard pressed to find a creature with a dex and con better than you already possess by that level; and should you find one you'll likely need assistance to reach it and subdue its friends.

It is not an instant host body of your choosing; even though your argument is largely predicated on the position that it is. And there is a big difference between attention from opposed forces to drive the game forward and interested powers sending overwhelming force because you've just captured one of someone's most elite soldiers or casters.

Picking a fight with an adult red dragon at level 4 seems as sensible as stealing one of the Raven Queen's elites at 11th, or one of Lolth's elites, for that matter.

This entire strategy requires finding a powerful host; people notice them when they are gone, and are likely to murder the hell out of the wizard that did it so it doesn't happen to them. You are pretending that's just another way to collect experience, but it's more likely a way to create a TPK.

[Valmark]

Whatever you have available, indeed.

Scry and teleport isn't the same as just shopping online anymore. You can't just teleport to the creature you want, nor can you necessarily even scry one, and since this particular strategy requires a beefy statblock, people would notice when that creature was gone and come after you.

I suppose if your DM is a pushover, but this would be starting the doomsday clock in many games.

Also, the shadow spear is an item that you may nor many not know how to use. If it works like a spear, it is a simple weapon that wizards don't have proficiency with, so you are making those two shadow spear attacks without your proficiency bonus.

If you take spear as your one simple-or-martial at level 2 solely with the intent of stealing a gloomweaver, I'd say that triples the strength of the deathsquad that comes for you afterwards.

Meanwhile, you've successfully derailed perhaps a whole session of play just to die.


Because the bulk of your "better than a fighter" argument relies on it being that particular statblock.

While statblocks don't specifically have class levels, it's quite clear that many statblock humanoids with CRs above 3 have experience-based abilities rather like that, as opposed to innate powers. Any DM worth their salt would be well within their rights to grant you a more or less base humanoid host, no matter what tricks it had up it's sleeve. The Assassin statblock isn't a humanoid that was born knowing how to assassinate, it is a creature that learned how to do it. Those skills are lost when you shunt the soul to the jar. You'd have a dex of 16, though, hooray?

And if all of this is so that you can ignore dexterity and just use a host - how are you staying alive for the 11 levels necessary to get the spell in the first place?

Further, what if the rest of the party isn't ok with you using what is essentially the lich starter kit? What if it is a local crime?

You could attempt to do this to a local lord, too, just like you could start murdering shopkeepers rather than paying them.

Magic Jar literally says "take that statblock and make it yours" so any DM worth their salt... Will be houseruling it your way.

And honestly, literally any npc (or close to that) will be better then your basic wizard body. Gloom Weaver if you can land it makes you better then other martials but you'll always gain from Magic Jar, unless you're possessing a random commoner.

(Also lich has nothing to do with Magic Jar- hell, putting an evil humanoid's body to use is easily justifiable Good wise. The host would die only if things go majorly bad for you).

[cutlery]

And honestly, literally any npc (or close to that) will be better then your basic wizard body.

That much I won't disagree with, but it's a long way from that to better at melee than a fighter; and that's setting aside the care and feeding of your original body.

[Renbot]

20 posts and counting on Magic Jar. Way to hijack a thread about bladesingers. Why don't you guys start a new thread?

[Eldariel]

20 posts and counting on Magic Jar. Way to hijack a thread about bladesingers. Why don't you guys start a new thread?

Let's spend the next 20 discussing about whether we should talk about Magic Jar in this thread or another :smallamused:

[Renbot]

Let's spend the next 20 discussing about whether we should talk about Magic Jar in this thread or another :smallamused:

Knock yourself out

[McSkrag]

Getting back to bladesingers...

Do you folks that have played a bladesinger to higher levels find yourself being more of a spellcaster or are you still mixing it up in melee?

[Eldariel]

Getting back to bladesingers...

Do you folks that have played a bladesinger to higher levels find yourself being more of a spellcaster or are you still mixing it up in melee?

I used to mix it up in melee. Long duration buffs give you a lot of mileage out of melee and there are some enemy types where it's just plain convenient to be able to beat them up. Rakshasa, as already mentioned, but in general things with all manners of magic immunity or such.

[Satori01]

Magic Jar literally says "take that statblock and make it yours" so any DM worth their salt... Will be houseruling it your way.


Shadar Kai is a playable elf race. So anything not in the PC race write is the result of training and practice.....the same things captured by the concept of Class.

A Shadow Dancer is emulating a monk.
A Gloom Weaver is emulating a warlock.

Any DM worth their salt recognizes this....

[Valmark]

Shadar Kai is a playable elf race. So anything not in the PC race write is the result of training and practice.....the same things captured by the concept of Class.

A Shadow Dancer is emulating a monk.
A Gloom Weaver is emulating a warlock.

Any DM worth their salt recognizes this....

Except that not only those have no listed class levels or features, they have some abilities that are different from any class you can think of- like attacking twice plus a spell in the GW's case. The only thing you could make a case on for removal if any would be the spellcasting (a wizard capable of Magic Jaring a Gloom Weaver probably doesn't particularly care of the warlocks' three slots and cantrips anyway. Useful but not by much).

[Satori01]

No creature has "class levels" this is not 3e.
What many creatures have are features that emulate PC abilities.
A goblin Veteran was not born with multiple attacks, the veteran gained those extra attacks through training and experience.

A troll is born with 3 attacks.
The Shadar Kai Shadow Dancer has hallmarks that indicate that it is a Monk of the Way of Shadow, but balanced to be an opponent.

The Shadow Dancer was not born with mastery of shadows and chains. The category of humanoids, typically indicate creatures that experience reality similar to humans.

Back to Bladesingers.......when using spell slots to reduce damage, how high of a slot do people typically spend?

[Sception]

Do you folks that have played a bladesinger to higher levels find yourself being more of a spellcaster or are you still mixing it up in melee?

I still mix it up in melee, but only because by later levels I've always multiclassed into eldritch knight or arcane trickster to support that play style. I've never played a bladesinger that didn't end up multiclassing for that reason. Straight bladesinger is too much a wizard, and if I wanted to be that much of a wizard then I'm not looking to mess around with melee or weapon attacks, not at high levels certainly.


I find that the bladesinger suffers from the issue that other gishy subclasses of full caster classes suffer from in 5e - that so much of the caster identity is tied up in the one thing subclasses never sacrifice - full caster spell list & progression - that these subclasses never really feel like proper blends of martial and magical ability, and instead just end up as full casters but with better AC, which effectively means full casters with extra spell slots since they don't have to spend as many spells on defense. Examples of this issues apart from bladesinger include valor bard and hexblade warlock. All these classes can kind of sort of do the melee thing, particularly at lower levels, and particularly the hexblade, but all of them are more mechanically effective when simply played as caster classes with better, non-spell-slot based defensive abilities.

The issue mostly comes down to diferent classes not putting the same weight on subclasses. Martial and half-caster classes tend to have a lot more involved subclasses - granting more powerful and more numerous features throughout the character's career, enough so that trading that away is a real cost that can effectively balance against a partial spell progression. Caster Classes get most of their features in the form of base class spell progression, so their subclasses are more limited, granting flavor, maybe pushing towards particular spell selections, but not defining the character's play style like a martial subclass can. A caster subclass simply doesn't have enough meat to trade for the martial aspects a real melee combatant needs without going over the top (bladesinger can pull it off, but look at the constant 'bladesinger is overpowered' complaint threads).

A bit of multiclassing does even that out, though. I don't really like how Bladesinger works on it's own (it's not weak or bad or anything, just doesn't deliver what I want out of the class), but it works great when mixed with either eldritch knight or arcane trickster. Better than any of those subclasses work on their own, imo. It doesn't take a lot of multiclassing for a bladesinger to get the abilities they want to work well in melee, and by multiclassing they take the needed hit to caster progression to balance out the trade. For tanking or damage oriented warrior type gishing I prefer Charisma class combinations in 5e, but Arcane Trickster 3+ / Bladesinger 2+ is my go to whenever I'm in a party that needs a sneakthief/trapfixer. It plays well up to level 5, and from levels 6+ you can go full trickster, full singer, near about any mix of the two, or even add in some eldritch knight. Lots of variety and plays well.

It's not really surprising or a bad thing that an inherently multiclass-type character concept like the gish works best as a multiclass character, so I'm not exactly annoyed at the Bladesinger for not being exactly what I want it to be on its own, but there it is.

[Deathtongue]

Hi, I got a Bladesinger up to level 17 in Adventurer's League. I even wrote a guide about it: Inquisitor Lim's Guide to the Bladesinger. I've played other Bladesinger in home/Discord games as well, though not as continually and to high level as that. Some things about the Bladesinger:

1) My first-ever long-term Bladesinger was a High Elf that started with a 8 STR / 15 (17) DEX / 15 CON / 15 (16) INT / 8 WIS / 8 CHA. First ASI went into patching up DEX and CON, second ASI went into Warcaster (which ended up being something of a waste except for the concentration bonus), third and fourth ASI went into INT. If I ever got to level 19, last ASI would've gone into DEX. Racial selection is very important, but both High Elf and Half-Elf will eventually give you 20/20 for DEX and INT along with a feat. I have no idea what that poster was talking about Elf being a bad race for Bladesinger. Any race where you can come out of CharGen with at least a 16 INT and a 16 DEX/CON is at bare minimum a good wizard race, even if they get nothing else. The only PHB race that's better than High Elf/Half-Elf for Wizard is Variant Human, which is more about how OP Variant Humans are than Elves.

2) Survival in melee is ironically more problematic for low-level Bladesingers than mid-level and high-level Bladesingers. A critical hit WILL take you out for most of the game. The thing is that by the time your toolbox expands enough to shut out stray critical hits and Fire Giants rolling a 17 for both of their Greatsword attacks, your melee capabilities vis-a-vis regular ol' spellcasting may fall apart. Emphasis on may. See point three.

That shifts somewhere around T2. By mid-T2, you can actually eat a critical hit from a bruiser monster without dropping to 0 instantly. More important, your spellcasting has become more capable. You not only have enough slots for stuff like Shield, but also Protection from Evil and Good, Blur, Haste, and Greater Invis. By the time you get to T3, you can have a total shutout defensive spell but still have enough spell slots to use non-concentration butt-kicking spells like Transmute Rock and Lightning Bolt and Blindness/Deafness.

3) The Bladesinger performs best in setups with extended workdays, the so-called 4-6 non-trivial combat encounters per long rest. Being able to Shadow Blade And Chill, or Blur And Chill, with a second-level spell slot at level 6 gave me a level of endurance that other wizards, and even spellcasting martials, just straight-up didn't have.

The Bladesinger will still not be a poorly performing build in tables with short workdays. However, it's been my experience that other wizard builds like the Evoker / Illusionist / Chronurgist / Diviner will just straight-up perform better if you frequently get a long rest between every encounter.

4) A lot of perceptions about the Bladesinger's melee capabilities, especially in late T2 or T3, revolve around what kind of magical items drop. If magical items beyond the stray +1 Rapier aren't really available, then your character is going to drift towards more pure spellcasting as the game gos on. But if magical items do start dropping, that's a completely different story.

If these magical items drop, your build will be pushed towards melee capabilities:

Bracers of Armor. I got one early in Storm King's Thunder for my first long-term Bladesinger. That +2 bonus to AC combined with Protection from Evil and Good (when I wasn't playing the character in the SKT hardcover), Blur, or Haste made me unhittable unless I rolled poorly for initiative.
Any of the Giant Strength Belts
A good magical weapon, especially a Sunblade or a Flametongue
Ring of Spell Storing -- these are a huge deal if you have a Tiny Servant / familiar / homunculus in your party.


If these magical items drop, yeah, then Bladesinger should definitely consider going full-time in the melee buttkicking department. I had Bracers of Armor and a Ring of Spell Storing (a trade) right after Xanathar's came out. Level 11, I had Contingency + L5 Shadow Blade plus my Familiar backing me up with some Haste action, it was disgusting. 12d8+12 and then later +15 damage for a trivial expenditure of resources? Hell yeah.

Now, I know it's taboo in the world of Character Optimization to talk about magical item drops, because you can't really control them unless you play in Adventurer's League. That said, Bladesinger builds hinge so much on magical item available -- unless other Wizard builds like the Illusionist and even Necromancer -- that it's something you have to take into consideration.

5) I like a good Theoretical OP discussion too, but seriously? Magic Jar shenanigans? Give it a rest, kid. No, I don't care about how well you covered the logistics of getting the 'right' body and carting your body, no DM is going to let you do that. Please stop wasting our time unironically discussing it as if it's a real thing you can do to make your character better. You may as well tell us about your plan to slip the DM a 50 dollar bill to drop you a Moonblade, except that straight-up bribery has a better chance of working.

[ThorOdinson]

5) I like a good Theoretical OP discussion too, but seriously? Magic Jar shenanigans? Give it a rest, kid. No, I don't care about how well you covered the logistics of getting the 'right' body and carting your body, no DM is going to let you do that. Please stop wasting our time unironically discussing it as if it's a real thing you can do to make your character better. You may as well tell us about your plan to slip the DM a 50 dollar bill to drop you a Moonblade, except that straight-up bribery has a better chance of working.

I would appreciate a separate thread for discussing Magic Jar. Several new Wizard subclasses are about to become official and the spell is of interest to Chronurgists in particular.

For reference, here is how Stack Exchange parses Magic Jar.

Resolving Magic Jar (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/59765/how-does-magic-jar-possession-actually-interact-with-your-stats)

Unless I am mistaken, Eladriel isn't talking about shenanigans. He is actually just talking about using it according to the spell description to possess bodies.

Spells are meant to be used. They are also meant to be used according to their description, which is what Eladriel is advocating. If I understand you correctly, you seem to be having issue with players who choose to use a spell on the Wizard's spell list and seek to use it according to the spell description. Can you elaborate on why you are having trouble with basic use of a spell in the PHB?

[cutlery]

Can you elaborate on why you are having trouble with basic use of a spell in the PHB?

You mean other than the one particularly OP combination he came up with not being regularly available on the plane of existence he had access to, or the fact that those "creatures" are clearly humanoids with experience (all of which gets erased when you take over their body) or require the use of an item so strong everyone and their mother would be murdering elite Shadar-Kai to claim them if they were usable by anyone but them and actually existed as items in the game, or the fact that any wizard at all can benefit from magic jar and that, once again, bladesingers are great in later Tiers because they are wizards.

[Deathtongue]

Spells are meant to be used. They are also meant to be used according to their description, which is what Eladriel is advocating. If I understand you correctly, you seem to be having issue with players who choose to use a spell on the Wizard's spell list and seek to use it according to the spell description. Can you elaborate on why you are having trouble with basic use of a spell in the PHB?

Because it requires massive amounts of cooperation with the DM at almost every step of the way for the end result of breaking the game. The long-term bodyjacking exploit of a rare and particular monster use of Magic Jar is just not workable. It's like designing your party around the use of Summon Woodland Beings: Pixie, except that it's even more extreme because Magic Jar has additional veto points that the Summon Woodland Beings trick does not have.

[Valmark]

Because it requires massive amounts of cooperation with the DM at almost every step of the way for the end result of breaking the game. The long-term bodyjacking exploit of a rare and particular monster use of Magic Jar is just not workable. It's like designing your party around the use of Summon Woodland Beings: Pixie, except that it's even more extreme because Magic Jar has additional veto points that the Summon Woodland Beings trick does not have.

To be honest it's harder to summon pixies than going to the Shadowfell or wherever it is Shadar-Kais live and steal one.

And to be fair if you are going to talk magic items you might as well talk Magic Jar. There isn't that much difference regarding DM dependancy.

[Deathtongue]

To be honest it's harder to summon pixies than going to the Shadowfell or wherever it is Shadar-Kais live and steal one.While it's RAW that the DM picks the monsters from Conjure Animals/Woodland Beings, most DMs will let you pick your summons until you abuse it -- because it saves them and the table a lot of time. All the same, Summon Woodland Creatures for pixies is still not a workable plan. If you want to summon Pixies, you need to A) know about them (plausible), B) have the spell (possible), and C) have the DM agree to let you select their summons (not guaranteed, but it's a common houserule). And even then, pretty much every guide with Summon Woodland Creatures will tell you that you may get away with this plan a maximum of ONE time before your DM either starts deciding your summons for you or tells you 'lol no, pick something else'.

Getting a Shadar Kai has even more hurdles than that. First of all, you need to be in the right campaign setting. That is, a campaign setting that not only has the Shadowfell but also the Shadowfell as we know it. If your DM is running a custom campaign, it might not have the Shadowfell at all. Or it might technically have the Shadowfell in it, but DMs will understandably be cagey about you spending an extended amount of time there, because it ruins the theme of the campaign. Then you need a way to actually get there; Magic Jar is L11, Plane shift is L13. And Plane Shift is not going to help you if you don't know of a major landmark in the Shadowfell. If you don't, that's another expedition you need to make. Then you need to find the appropriate Shadar-Kai. Gloom Weavers are CR9, NPCs like that don't grow on trees. THEN you need to actually find an appropriate victim. If the Shadar-Kai is something like a favored servant of royalty or the magocracy, you or your party may not want to go through with the plan. And then you might have to deal with the party paladin chopping off your original's body head and getting rid of your summon because, like Animate Dead, a lot of players in-game and out-of-game have understandable ethical objections to permanent bodysnatching.

And that's just the actual bodysnatching logistics. I haven't even gotten into the ongoing logistics or how it's questionable whether Magic Jar will even let you get away with stealing certain Shadar Kai traits.

Magic Jar for that purpose not only will invite the same 'lol no' nerf, but it ALSO has like 10 points where the DM and party have to go along with you. And if they say 'no' to any of those points, your plan fails.

Anyone advocating this strategy is irresponsible to the point where their advice on character optimization should be discarded -- you're encouraging people to go down a path where they put the campaign on pause, argue repeatedly with the DM, and then earn the suspicion of their party members. And I have no tolerance for fake-optimizers saying that we should go along this ridiculous plan.

[Eldariel]

Anyone advocating this strategy is irresponsible to the point where their advice on character optimization should be discarded -- you're encouraging people to go down a path where they put the campaign on pause, argue repeatedly with the DM, and then earn the suspicion of their party members. And I have no tolerance for fake-optimizers saying that we should go along this ridiculous plan.

I think you're letting your emotions get the best of you here - the position you hold here seems quite harsh for no logical reason. Longterm bodysnatching isn't that big of a deal if you have something worth stealing on board. It can actually be incredibly worthwhile; it's just campaign dependent in that it's optimal to have a campaign with high power humanoids you'd be killing anyways. Just takeover a body instead to empower your party and go from there. There is, after all, a reason the spell has a permanent duration: just to this end.

The exact benefits you can get through Magic are is heavily campaign dependent, that much is true. But I've yet to play a campaign with no high level NPCs. And all it takes to use Magic Jar in this manner is to knock one of those unconscious instead of killing them and then taking the time to setup a hostile body takeover: not really that far from what it takes to produce some Planar Bound minions or a Simulacrum or whatever. It is also however by far the strongest buff effect available on its level pretty much regardless of what high CR humanoid corpse you acquire and most of those generally make you naturally an extremely competent combatant simply due to its permanent duration and lack of Concentration. If we're talking about optimal performance for a given level, it would be folly to ignore a spell that lets you get a permanent body upgrade. While it might or might not be houseruled often, it's still there much like Simulacrum and Contingency and Shapechange and True Polymorph and all the other magical high level bull****. And while there are certainly tables where it might face any number of DM obstacles, there are obviously also plenty of tables where it will work simply and with no problem.

And as always in online discussions, the closer the discussion sticks to RAW the better simply because there's no common arbiter so any departures to more subjective rulings and table-specific considerations will lead to lesser common ground between the participants. It can of course be valuable to consider what the reality of the game is: if no table ever allows you to use a spell, then clearly it isn't as valuable as it might first seem but if it's this unclear "Yes/No/Maybe"-split, which seems to be the case here, that isn't that valuable a consideration, at least not to the point that the spell should be ignored entirely. RAW it is the strongest option available for its level and thus if we consider what's the optimal range of what can be accomplished on a given level, it needs to be given its due considerations in spite of its exact effects being a bit harder to pinpoint due to the difficulty of ascertaining what's the best you can access in any given campaign at any given cost.

[Deathtongue]

I think you're letting your emotions get the best of you here - the position you hold here seems quite harsh for no logical reason. Longterm bodysnatching isn't that big of a deal if you have something worth stealing on board. It can actually be incredibly worthwhile; it's just campaign dependent in that it's optimal to have a campaign with high power humanoids you'd be killing anyways. Just takeover a body instead to empower your party and go from there. There is, after all, a reason the spell has a permanent duration: just to this end.I have a personal problem with character optimization advice which requires you to A) being in a campaign where the DM goes nice on you by not being a Gygaxian control freak and B) use this kindness to abuse your DM's trust and make your character better. Because B) is what leads to the ending of A).

Using crap like Summon Woodland Beings to dump a bunch of pixies onto the field isn't a 'ha ha, you little scamp' moment. Go too far with your optimization, especially if it's something convoluted and requiring DM cooperation, will permanently sour your DM's attitude towards your optimization; not just at that session or even campaign, but at that table. Anytime you want to do something slightly convoluted or unusual, you've now subjected your plan to audits and line-item vetoes that will result in unnecessary nerfs. Even more unforgivably, now you're subjecting your teammates to this kind of Gygaxian scrutiny as well.

And I seriously have no patience for advice that results in 'piss your DM off and make the CharOP community look like wheedling parasites'.

[Eldariel]

I have a personal problem with character optimization advice which requires you to A) being in a campaign where the DM goes nice on you by not being a Gygaxian control freak and B) use this kindness to abuse your DM's trust and make your character better. Because B) is what leads to the ending of A).

Using crap like Summon Woodland Beings to dump a bunch of pixies onto the field isn't a 'ha ha, you little scamp' moment. Go too far with your optimization, especially if it's something convoluted and requiring DM cooperation, will permanently sour your DM's attitude towards your optimization; not just at that session or even campaign, but at that table. Anytime you want to do something slightly convoluted or unusual, you've now subjected your plan to audits and line-item vetoes that will result in unnecessary nerfs. Even more unforgivably, now you're subjecting your teammates to this kind of Gygaxian scrutiny as well.

And I seriously have no patience for advice that results in 'piss your DM off and make the CharOP community look like wheedling parasites'.

There's a big difference between Magic Jar and Summon Pixies though: Magic Jar bodysnatching is the main function of the spell. With its cast time and other limitations, it's really hard to use it to do much else. It has some other weird edgecase uses like using personal buffs on other characters and such but those are generally not very slot efficient - and then stealing somebody's body for a while to accomplish something social but at that point, why not just keep it for good. It's explicitly permanent and non-Concentration. Meanwhile, Woodland Beings has plenty of uses beyond Pixies and it's not even natively under your control to summon Pixies with it. That is to say, the spell can be allowed without expecting it to be used for Pixies and RAW it just doesn't do that. If Magic Jar is allowed, however, its primary use is taking over bodies and RAW it works to that end only and you'd kinda have to rewrite the spell to make it do much else.

I don't think it specifically relies on DM kindness like Pixies do; the spell works that way as written and the spell more or less only does that as written whereas summoning pixies is a weird edgecase of a very open-ended spell. All it takes is for campaign to include high level NPC enemies, which tend to be more or less a given. Taking over a Githyanki or Drow or Orc or whatever of high level tends to function and you take them out as functio officio generally. I'd be totally down for using Magic Jar into high-powered bodies under a Gygaxian DM. If my soul blew up due to a trap in the new body, well, that's life in such a game - at least it'd be splendid. Of course, if the DM simply said that you only get a level 1 body and all NPC-powers are class-based that'd be perfectly okay too but in that case it's less about being a control freak and more about balancing the spell with houserules (which, incidentally, I'd much rather the DM do than just try to "softban it" because the boundaries of softban in the case of this spell are so unclear as to be useless since you don't necessarily even know what kinds of goodies you're getting until after you use it limiting your ability to self-regulate it much unlike with Summon Pixies where you, if given the room to choose, have perfect control over what you're getting).

Whether the spell is too good is, as such, another matter from DM style per ce. I'd rate it less problematic than Simulacrum (which I never allow as written myself - I go with the 3e version of the clone being half as powerful as the original WRT to spell slots, spell-likes and such; still hideously powerful but slightly less so) but higher than most things when used in this manner, which is of course problematic. Permanent bonuses in general are problematic and when they can be this massive (and this random), it really depends. Of course, OTOH, it's just numbers, which ultimately aren't the primary thing making you obscenely ridiculous in this game (which is why I think Simulacrum is the worse offender), so I could see it allowed on balance reasons just fine letting you essentially "gish it up" by just stealing a combat-conditioned body.


In short, if the game allows Simulacrum as written I see no reason not to include Magic Jar in the considerations too. I don't think your worries are really substantiated: unlike summoning pixies, magic jaring isn't really something the DM actively has to enable nor something that can really be prevented without altering RAW. If the DM is cool with Simulacrum, chances are Magic Jar is not going to phase them either, too. That's simply a high-powered game where such things are at home.

[BMF]

In short, if the game allows Simulacrum as written I see no reason not to include Magic Jar in the considerations too. I don't think your worries are really substantiated: unlike summoning pixies, magic jaring isn't really something the DM actively has to enable nor something that can really be prevented without altering RAW. If the DM is cool with Simulacrum, chances are Magic Jar is not going to phase them either, too. That's simply a high-powered game where such things are at home.

Yeah, I think that's Deathtongue's point. If your DM allows ridiculous chain Simulacrum armies, then here's your Wizard class guide: "Summon an infinite army of Simulacra."

Suggesting that as a realistic option is silly and should be relegated to 'fun RAW tricks' threads instead of serious CharOp. Most Magic Jar shenanigans fall into the same bucket; assuming a DM that would let you do that (and that the rest of your table wouldn't just leave in boredom) is equally serious as assuming a DM that lets you choose unlimited custom magic items.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, I think that's Deathtongue's point. If your DM allows ridiculous chain Simulacrum armies, then here's your Wizard class guide: "Summon an infinite army of Simulacra."

Suggesting that as a realistic option is silly and should be relegated to 'fun RAW tricks' threads instead of serious CharOp. Most Magic Jar shenanigans fall into the same bucket; assuming a DM that would let you do that (and that the rest of your table wouldn't just leave in boredom) is equally serious as assuming a DM that lets you choose unlimited custom magic items.

I'm not talking about a Simulacrum army but a single Simulacrum. I think a single Simulacrum incapable of producing more is more powerful than Magic Jar in its most extreme uses. That spell is positively absurd, capable of almost doubling your power at worst.

[BMF]

I'm not talking about a Simulacrum army but a single Simulacrum. I think a single Simulacrum incapable of producing more is more powerful than Magic Jar in its most extreme uses. That spell is positively absurd, capable of almost doubling your power at worst.

I misunderstood your point then, apologies. I'm not sure if you're right or not, but it is a reasonable take. I do think that there's something that feels different about a single Simulacrum vs. Magic Jar or True Polymorph shenanigans. Maybe it's just that the Simulacrum makes the wizard more powerful but does not change its fundamental nature in a way that so obviously makes the rest of the party extemporaneous.

It might be interesting to read a CharOp guide (which I am not qualified to write) on something like "How to Use Simulacrum/Magic Jar/True Polymorph in a Way That Is Useful But Isn't Likely To Result in Your Group Disbanding."

[Valmark]

It's safe to assume you are going to tell your DM/your DM is going to see Magic Jar on your spellbook and tell you wether that spell is good or not to use. Beyond that, everything can be handled in game- your party agreeing or not, then the actual get-your-body thing. You can't abuse your DM's trust when they need to explicitely tell you yes.

As a player, I've seen plenty of DMs not give you the ability to choose summons- and assuming my character has nothing against it I'd have no problems helping the wizard find a MJ prey. As a DM, I would easily allow both the Pixie army AND Magic Jar, even that shenanigan- it's nothing game-breaking. I'm the DM, there is nothing I can't make up to keep the challenge up, let the players have their fun. Even if you don't get that specific NPC, any strong NPC will do (and again, 'removing traits that are experience based' is an house-rule. You can at most say this about non-innate spellcasting).

Hell, 8 Pixies aren't even that big of a deal. SWB is kind of... Ehw otherwise. Playing a Sheperd Druid currently and I used it once as novelty, then forgot about it. On the same vein, if you don't want your wizard Magic Jaring people... Don't give them people to Magic Jar. Simple as that.

For completition, let's keep in mind that you just need a Dispel Magic to erase MJ. Any DM taking offense from a player using that spell is either a DM that didn't read the spell or a DM that doesn't know how to fit level 5+ spellcasters against a party of level 11+.

[Chugger]

You're a full wizard with pretty good defense and protection against losing concentration - I'd be concentrating on something every important fight. I like to divide and conquer - so levitate, suggest, hyp pattern, banishment, polymorph, wall of force - and then melee instead of firebolting or nuking. You can always fireball if the enemy bunches up and you can burn them without hurting the party, instead of meleeing that round. Play this class flexibly. Just melee when it makes sense to do that - melee and cast when that makes sense - just cast when that makes sense.

Sometimes you can't bladesong - you know you can't short rest, and the current fight looks like a mook fight w/ a boss fight probably coming up next, and you only have one bladesong left. Better be a normal caster and hang back for this fight.

[Deathtongue]

I'm not talking about a Simulacrum army but a single Simulacrum. I think a single Simulacrum incapable of producing more is more powerful than Magic Jar in its most extreme uses. That spell is positively absurd, capable of almost doubling your power at worst.

Magic Jar: Shadar-Kai requires cooperation with the DM in order to make it work, only to turn around and then stab the DM in the back. You're asking the DM to put the campaign on pause while you come up with a Scooby-Doo plan to hunt down a specific NPC that may not even exist in the campaign setting. Or even if they do theoretically exist, you're asking your DM to spend their time sketching out the sociopolitics of a plane down to demographics -- not because it's important for character development or you feel that Shadar-Kai bodyjacking adds to the thematics of a campaign, but just because you want to wish yourself more power. It's incredibly disruptive both in time and campaign thematics -- if your adventure is about exploring the Underdark or out-maneuvering the other pirates or organizing a city's defenses against the Darklord's army, you're breaking the theme of the campaign to cheese yourself more power.

Simulacrum doesn't require that kind of campaign-derailing sojourn nor does it require relentless DM cooperation. The biggest snags are money and availability to ice. You're not asking your DM to rewrite a large sector of their campaign and/or asking them to handwave the obstacles to you getting a bodyjack.

[Deathtongue]

It's safe to assume you are going to tell your DM/your DM is going to see Magic Jar on your spellbook and tell you wether that spell is good or not to use. Beyond that, everything can be handled in game- your party agreeing or not, then the actual get-your-body thing. You can't abuse your DM's trust when they need to explicitely tell you yes.If you're using Magic Jar to just possess any physically hardcore humanoid jamoke you come across, that's one thing. I don't recommend it, but it isn't as actively disruptive to the campaign nor requires as much DM cooperation nor putting the campaign on pause as 'BRB, going to the Shadowlands'.

[Valmark]

If you're using Magic Jar to just possess any physically hardcore humanoid jamoke you come across, that's one thing. I don't recommend it, but it isn't as actively disruptive to the campaign nor requires as much DM cooperation nor putting the campaign on pause as 'BRB, going to the Shadowlands'.

Again- you can't disrupt the campaign when the DM can just tell you 'no' beforehand. Even if you do somehow go behind their backs, all it takes is a Dispel Magic to rectify it.

[Deathtongue]

Again- you can't disrupt the campaign when the DM can just tell you 'no' beforehand. Even if you do somehow go behind their backs, all it takes is a Dispel Magic to rectify it.The problem is that the DM has a LOT of ways to tell you 'no', many of them obvious or common sense.


That the DM and party will let you take time out of the campaign to do this. If the premise of your campaign is something like 'bring the factions of Freeport together to mount a defense against the forces of hell', no one is going to appreciate you suddenly going 'hey, you know this campaign we've been working on for eight sessions? Let's not do that for a couple of hours so I can get me some stats'. They're right to object to this plan on time-wasting grounds or thematic grounds, much like how a DM/party is justified in vetoing your proposal to go to Barrier Peaks so you can get a ray pistol.
That Shadar-Kai even exist in the DM's campaign setting. Shadar-Kai are not drow or giants or even gnolls, they're a meme monster that exists to fill up space several years into an edition. There are no hardcover adventures that have these creatures and no hardcover adventures that spend a significant amount of time in the Shadowfell. There are Adventurer League Adventurer Paths that take place in the Shadowfell, but not for long.
That there's a way to get to the Shadowfell at all. Magic Jar comes in at level 11, Plane Shift comes in at level 13. There are entry points into the Shadowfell that don't rely on Plane Shift, but you can't control them as a player.
Then there's the issue of finding the Gloom Weaver. What exactly are you using to find your target? You can't just wander the streets of Chaulssin for a few days and pluck a Gloom Weaver from the crowd, they're CR 9 targets. Scrying and Legend Lore and Locate Creature don't help. Divination and Augury may help to narrow down your target down to the city, but non-UA Wizards don't get those spells.
That there won't be any political consequences for bodyjacking a Gloom Weaver. They're CR9 creatures with 12th-level spellcasting, that's a pretty big deal in D&D. Imagine if Create Undead was errata'd to give you twice as many ghouls but only worked on characters with noble blood; that spell would suddenly become unusable in most campaign settings. Also, most of them are devoted servants of the Raven Queen, a pretty vengeful diety. While screwing over the Raven Queen's elite servants probably won't screw you over as hard as it would for, say, Moradin (something something social darwinism) it's not a risk-free endeavor.
That there won't be any in-party/alignment consequences for bodyjacking a Gloom Weaver. Magic Jar-ing someone in the heat of the moment while rescuing the princess or traveling locales is one thing, you're proposing to invade a stranger's locale and bodyjack them; effectively premeditated murder.


So, again, since this plan has so many veto points -- many of them common sense -- the only way it will work is to take advantage of the DM's lack of familiarity with the rules/kindness. It's terrible advice and I'm baffled that people are suggesting it as if it should be a real thing you should do, rather than some Theoretical OP you can do for a joke.

[ThorOdinson]

The problem is that the DM has a LOT of ways to tell you 'no', many of them obvious or common sense.


That the DM and party will let you take time out of the campaign to do this. If the premise of your campaign is something like 'bring the factions of Freeport together to mount a defense against the forces of hell', no one is going to appreciate you suddenly going 'hey, you know this campaign we've been working on for eight sessions? Let's not do that for a couple of hours so I can get me some stats'. They're right to object to this plan on time-wasting grounds or thematic grounds, much like how a DM/party is justified in vetoing your proposal to go to Barrier Peaks so you can get a ray pistol.
That Shadar-Kai even exist in the DM's campaign setting. Shadar-Kai are not drow or giants or even gnolls, they're a meme monster that exists to fill up space several years into an edition. There are no hardcover adventures that have these creatures and no hardcover adventures that spend a significant amount of time in the Shadowfell. There are Adventurer League Adventurer Paths that take place in the Shadowfell, but not for long.
That there's a way to get to the Shadowfell at all. Magic Jar comes in at level 11, Plane Shift comes in at level 13. There are entry points into the Shadowfell that don't rely on Plane Shift, but you can't control them as a player.
Then there's the issue of finding the Gloom Weaver. What exactly are you using to find your target? You can't just wander the streets of Chaulssin for a few days and pluck a Gloom Weaver from the crowd, they're CR 9 targets. Scrying and Legend Lore and Locate Creature don't help. Divination and Augury may help to narrow down your target down to the city, but non-UA Wizards don't get those spells.
That there won't be any political consequences for bodyjacking a Gloom Weaver. They're CR9 creatures with 12th-level spellcasting, that's a pretty big deal in D&D. Imagine if Create Undead was errata'd to give you twice as many ghouls but only worked on characters with noble blood; that spell would suddenly become unusable in most campaign settings. Also, most of them are devoted servants of the Raven Queen, a pretty vengeful diety. While screwing over the Raven Queen's elite servants probably won't screw you over as hard as it would for, say, Moradin (something something social darwinism) it's not a risk-free endeavor.
That there won't be any in-party/alignment consequences for bodyjacking a Gloom Weaver. Magic Jar-ing someone in the heat of the moment while rescuing the princess or traveling locales is one thing, you're proposing to invade a stranger's locale and bodyjack them; effectively premeditated murder.


So, again, since this plan has so many veto points -- many of them common sense -- the only way it will work is to take advantage of the DM's lack of familiarity with the rules/kindness. It's terrible advice and I'm baffled that people are suggesting it as if it should be a real thing you should do, rather than some Theoretical OP you can do for a joke.

The rules support using Magic Jar for body snatching. Body snatching is unequivocally its intended use. There are plenty of targets for Magic Jar besides Gloom Weavers.

In Tier 4, Wish for Magic Jar is a strong move that Divination Wizards and Chronurgists can pull without chance of failure on Big Bad Evil humanoids.

[Deathtongue]

The rules support using Magic Jar for body snatching. Body snatching is unequivocally its intended use. There are plenty of targets for Magic Jar besides Gloom Weavers.Magic Jar'ing into the first bruiser humanoid you see is much more defensible than picking a specific obscure creature not even native to the Material Plane.

It's still a very problematic plan, mind you. Magic Jar only works on humanoids, cutting into your options, and the 1-minute casting time means that you can't cast it in combat. So you're faced with two options:

A) Cast Magic Jar ahead of time, have your party transport your body into combat while you wait for the first suitable humanoid to pop up. Of course, this means that you can't help your party out in the opening adventuring phases unless you cancel the spell early. And if the first serious combat doesn't have any suitable humanoids, you either have to sit the combat out or waste one or more actions (depending on how you safeguarded your body while transporting it) returning to your body and thus wasting the spell.

B) Bodyjack someone in downtime, like you're chilling out in town and as part of resting you notice the Royal Captain and decide they'd make a fine vessel. This has political and alignment problems associated with it, especially if the target is high enough CR to make it worth ditching your own Bladesinger form.

Magic Jar'ing any suitable bulky humanoid is merely an impractical plan as opposed to bodyjacking a Gloom Weaver, which is outright cockamamie. I still don't recommend doing it except with a very lenient DM.

[Deathtongue]

In Tier 4, Wish for Magic Jar is a strong move that Divination Wizards and Chronurgists can pull without chance of failure on Big Bad Evil humanoids.It's actually a very stupid move unless your DM lets you use Action Surge or you're okay readying a 9th-level spell to go off right before your turn. Magic Jar doesn't give you a possession attempt immediately; you use your action to make your first attempt AFTER you cast the spell. Sure hope no one destroys your crystal while you can't protect your body...

[ThorOdinson]

It's actually a very stupid move unless your DM lets you use Action Surge or you're okay readying a 9th-level spell to go off right before your turn. Magic Jar doesn't give you a possession attempt immediately; you use your action to make your first attempt AFTER you cast the spell. Sure hope no one destroys your crystal while you can't protect your body...

Luckily its easy to protect your body and set up the body snatching if you know the spells on the Wizard's list.

[Deathtongue]

Luckily its easy to protect your body if you know the spells on the Wizard's list.What on the wizard list that you can cast in the middle of combat/right before is going to stop some high-CR humanoid from going over to your body, picking up the crystal with their 'interact with object' action, and then electing to destroy/ditch it?

[ThorOdinson]

What on the wizard list that you can cast in the middle of combat/right before is going to stop some high-CR humanoid from going over to your body, picking up the crystal with their 'interact with object' action, and then electing to destroy/ditch it?

{Scrubbed}

[Deathtongue]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
Yes, I've written several guides. Trust me, that Magic Jar plan has occurred to be but I eschewed it as a go-to tactic in my Bladesinger guide for reasons I mentioned in this thread.

That said: I want to know what your plan is. You're a wizard who cast Wish: Magic Jar, and right now you're in a crystal. You had to have that crystal out on your body as opposed to being in a satchel or something (otherwise you wouldn't know what your surroundings were) and the enemy has at least one full turn to just walk up to your now-an-object body, pick up the crystal, and crush it -- killing you instantly. What spells are you casting to prevent this?

[ThorOdinson]

Yes, I've written several guides. Trust me, that Magic Jar plan has occurred to be but I eschewed it as a go-to tactic in my Bladesinger guide for reasons I mentioned in this thread.

That said: I want to know what your plan is. You're a wizard who cast Wish: Magic Jar, and right now you're in a crystal. You had to have that crystal out on your body as opposed to being in a satchel or something (otherwise you wouldn't know what your surroundings were) and the enemy has at least one full turn to just walk up to your now-an-object body, pick up the crystal, and crush it -- killing you instantly. What spells are you casting to prevent this?

{Scrubbed}

[Deathtongue]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
I want to know which spell you are going to cast that is going to stop an enemy from walking up to your lifeless body and plucking and then destroying your soul crystal. The only workaround I can think of is to ready an action to cast Wish: Magic Jar right before your turn starts.

[ThorOdinson]

I want to know which spell you are going to cast that is going to stop an enemy from walking up to your lifeless body and plucking and then destroying your soul crystal. The only workaround I can think of is to ready an action to cast Wish: Magic Jar right before your turn starts.

{Scrubbed}

[Valmark]

To be honest, I'm kinda confused too. The original suggestion was of the party carrying the wizard's body I seem to recall, nobody said that the wizard should do it alone until now. Not only that, but nobody said to use it in combat until now- that does sound kind of stupid. And suicidal.

The fact that Thor keeps going circles around the spell or spells the wizard is supposed to cast is confusing too.

[Satori01]

The rules support using Magic Jar for body snatching. Body snatching is unequivocally its intended use. There are plenty of targets for Magic Jar besides Gloom Weavers.

In Tier 4, Wish for Magic Jar is a strong move that Divination Wizards and Chronurgists can pull without chance of failure on Big Bad Evil humanoids.

You have that backwards, in Tier 4 your opponents have the option to make the strong move to Magic Jar you.

There is absolutely no downside for a lich to fight your party in you. Kill the host and the lich goes back to it's phylactery.
Rinse/Repeat, ad nauseum.

This idea of white room RAW, ignores the part of game theory that examines the scenarios rules create.

When you highjack the body of a powerful, high CR NPC, you are not just stealing a stat block, you are stealing an NPC the DM now needs to account for.

If taking a Githyanki Silver Sword results in Githyanki Knights on Red Dragons, what happens when you steal Supreme Commander Garriz, lover to the Lich-Queen, and their Silver Sword.

Just kill them, in a a high level, high power game, death is no big deal.

When you steal someone's body, Raise Dead is no longer an option. That is a big deal.

As a partymate I vote NO...Hell No to the party proposition being voted on of Needlessly attracting the Raven Queens wrath by stealing her servants.

Before MAD just meant Multiple Attribute Dependency, it used to be used to mean: Mutually Assured Destruction.

Once you cast Magic Jar or Simulacrum, your DM will start using those spells as well, against you.

So, be mindful of that.

Just because you are playing a Wizard, does not mean you should be an undemocratic jerk. Your party at least deserves to have a discussion on when these spells should be used.

That is just politeness.

[DarknessEternal]

Have you taken a look at the Wizard spell list recently?

{Scrubbed}

[ThorOdinson]

To be honest, I'm kinda confused too. The original suggestion was of the party carrying the wizard's body I seem to recall, nobody said that the wizard should do it alone until now. Not only that, but nobody said to use it in combat until now- that does sound kind of stupid. And suicidal.

The fact that Thor keeps going circles around the spell or spells the wizard is supposed to cast is confusing too.

{Scrubbed}

[Valmark]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}


To be honest, multiple high-CR creatures can be defeated by severely under-leveled characters wizard or not wizard. Look at the tarrasque for a blatant example.

Anyway, say the spell (or spells). You just said there is a spell to be cast to make it 100% safe to do solo even in a fight, and seem to be refusing to explain what it is. If you want to argue your point, you have to bring proof. It's as if I went "Yeah this class is the best in D&D" and then refuse to even say which class.

[ThorOdinson]

To be honest, multiple high-CR creatures can be defeated by severely under-leveled characters wizard or not wizard. Look at the tarrasque for a blatant example.

Anyway, say the spell (or spells). You just said there is a spell to be cast to make it 100% safe to do solo even in a fight, and seem to be refusing to explain what it is. If you want to argue your point, you have to bring proof. It's as if I went "Yeah this class is the best in D&D" and then refuse to even say which class.

{Scrubbed}

[Valmark]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

...I should explain what you said? O.o

[ThorOdinson]

...I should explain what you said? O.o
{Scrubbed}

[Deathtongue]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}Please point out the spell(s) to me, I can't find it.

[DarknessEternal]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

So the answer to my question is no then. Ok, you're on ignore.

[ThorOdinson]

Please point out the spell(s) to me, I can't find it.

Check out this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610039-Can-a-13th-level-pc-beat-zariel)


So the answer to my question is no then. Ok, you're on ignore.

Cool. Ignore me.

[Deathtongue]

Check out this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610039-Can-a-13th-level-pc-beat-zariel)I looked at this thread and I can't find it. Which page/post number should I be looking at? I see some Wall of Force / Sickening Radiance tactics with a wizard and a simulacrum to take out one monster, but that still doesn't help protect your body.

[ThorOdinson]

I looked at this thread and I can't find it. Which page/post number should I be looking at? I see some Wall of Force / Sickening Radiance tactics with a wizard and a simulacrum to take out one monster, but that still doesn't help protect your body.

{Scrubbed}Wall of Force and Simulacrum{Scrubbed}

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: closed for review.