Animate Objects?

[Mister Biffo]

What was the point of spending a turn casting Animate Objects? Even if its a large animated object, the statue could easily be destroyed in a single hit. Why didn't he cast Summon Monster or something like that?

[Gift Jeraff]

He may be low on spells from a recent dungeon crawl.

[Yirggzmb]

Distraction?

Easier to write off as silly vandalism?

Didn't have summon monster prepared but did have animate object prepared?

The author felt like writing it this way because he's a character in a comic and not a min-maxer sitting around a table coming up with the optimal solutions to every given situation?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He may be low on spells from a recent dungeon crawl.

Or doesn't consider the dwarves threatening enough to use more high-level spells, and is just trying to stall until allies come over.

Or, most likely, not every character is required to do the perfectly optimal combat move every time. Anyone have a link to the old FAQ where this was spelled out? Or did it get lost in the last forum reshuffle?

Grey Wolf

[Riftwolf]

He may be low on spells from a recent dungeon crawl.
Very possible as it's morning and he prepares spells for the night.


Distraction?

Easier to write off as silly vandalism?

Didn't have summon monster prepared but did have animate object prepared?

The author felt like writing it this way because he's a character in a comic and not a min-maxer sitting around a table coming up with the optimal solutions to every given situation?

All good points. My personal favourite explanation is 'because Sodium Elementals are crazy dangerous in the circumstances'

[Mister Biffo]

If this was Xykon, I'd totally understand, but this is Redcloak. He's been shown to be an expert strategist. I imagine he'd carefully decide which spells to prepare and use. He used harm, so he must at least be a little concerned with the fight.

[Jaziggy]

What was the point of spending a turn casting Animate Objects? Even if its a large animated object, the statue could easily be destroyed in a single hit. Why didn't he cast Summon Monster or something like that?

My gut reaction was that his heart wasn't really in the fight; that once Maxrah showed up, he became worried about a) Xykon arriving and asking too many questions or b) he doesn't actually want to foreclose the possibility of TDO working with the other Gods.

Others have suggested it's just a stall while he gets himself prepared, that he's out of spells, or that he just made a bad call about what spell to cast. I think that's reasonably plausible, as he may be rethinking his strategy in the face of the negative energy ward Maxrah has up.

[InvisibleBison]

Perhaps the statue is made of a special material that makes it more powerful than a regular Medium animated object.

[Jasdoif]

Or, most likely, not every character is required to do the perfectly optimal combat move every time.I don't know....He probably prepared animate objects to combo with stone shape inside the caves, and having used the latter already (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1206.html) means the former's lost a lot of value...even if he does have summon monster spells available, animate objects is still faster to cast; and if the statue manages to buy enough time for Redcloak to safely summon a monster and maybe even let it flank with the statue, bonus.

Plus the opportunity for symbolic foreshadowing of what specifically happened to Kraagor, in a battle against two dwarves; since OotS runs on narrative power, there's probably some sort of bonus right there.


Anyone have a link to the old FAQ where this was spelled out? Or did it get lost in the last forum reshuffle?Is this close enough?

Here's the thing: No matter what I draw in any battle scene, within ten minutes of posting it someone chimes in about how the characters are stupid for not executing this, that, or the other tactic. Never mind that said tactic would likely end the fight in one panel when it is my job to provide you with an entertaining battle scene. Never mind that said tactic may result in the person winning whom the plot does not need to win. Never mind that the fight may not be over yet. No, all that matters is that these characters are not living up to someone's imagined D&D tactical mastery.

Well, I don't give a damn anymore. The characters fight the way they fight to make an interesting page. They may make subpar decisions, I don't care. I don't spend enough time with the D&D rules anymore to eke out all of these Ultimate Killer Strategies anyway, so we're really running up against the limits of my knowledge and ability. The characters can't be better strategists than I am, and I care more about other aspects. Such strategies are usually boring to read and visually bland to look at anyway. There aren't going to be a lot of invisible save-or-die effects thrown around, because there are only so many ways I can draw characters succeeding at Fortitude saves (and then I still have to verbally explain what just happened). You should stop expecting them, because I'm not going to use them.

My job is to entertain, not to showcase perfect D&D tactics. If you can't be entertained by anything BUT perfect D&D tactics, that's on you.

[hroþila]

If this was Xykon, I'd totally understand, but this is Redcloak. He's been shown to be an expert strategist. I imagine he'd carefully decide which spells to prepare and use. He used harm, so he must at least be a little concerned with the fight.
I'm sure Redcloak carefully chose which spells to prepare for the day and he used them all expertly, demonstrating an exquisite grasp of strategy, during the many fights he had before this one.

[understatement]

If this was Xykon, I'd totally understand, but this is Redcloak. He's been shown to be an expert strategist. I imagine he'd carefully decide which spells to prepare and use. He used harm, so he must at least be a little concerned with the fight.

Indeed, he has totally never not prepared Flame Strike before in case a certain defense would be consisted of trees, and has also never tried to use a Disintegrate against a person explicitly built on Fortitude power.

Can't prepare for what you don't expect.

[Cicciograna]

Because he thought it would be fun to have a dwarf be killed by the statue of a dwarf.

[Jaziggy]

I don't know....He probably prepared animate objects to combo with stone shape inside the caves, and having used the latter already (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1206.html) means the former's lost a lot of value...even if he does have summon monster spells available, animate objects is still faster to cast; and if the statue manages to buy enough time for Redcloak to safely summon a monster and maybe even let it flank with the statue, bonus.

Plus the opportunity for symbolic foreshadowing of what specifically happened to Kraagor, in a battle against two dwarves; since OotS runs on narrative power, there's probably some sort of bonus right there.

Is this close enough?


I think this casting time point is a good one. I'm not familiar enough with the mechanics to know what the quickest spells are, but if you're outnumbered and out-classed from a melee perspective (dubious maybe but even if RC could take the two of them, he'd certainly prefer not to) he needs to do something that is immediate and evens the odds while he casts buffs or summons heavier foes.

[Brutalitops]

I think he just did'tn have a high level summon and wanted someone in the action economy to bye time to win the fight.

[The MunchKING]

What was the point of spending a turn casting Animate Objects? Even if its a large animated object, the statue could easily be destroyed in a single hit. Why didn't he cast Summon Monster or something like that?

The Summon monsters he could have used that spell slot on would have been just as vulnerable to getting smashed. Moreso really, as they don't have stone's inherent hardness.

[Linneris]

Because he thought it would be fun to have a dwarf be killed by the statue of a dwarf.

This, really.

[Synesthesy]

You are forgetting that Reddie everyday for some times is in either one of two states:

1) he has just cleaned a high level dungeon (high level enough to give XP to a undead epic lich) so he's low on spell slots
2) he is waiting to clean a high level dungeon (high level enough to give XP to a undead epic lich) so he can't be low on spell slots later

So either there were or there will be better fights to use stronger spell, as two dwarves aren't as dangerous as a dungeon run in the tomb at all.

[Jacky720]

You are forgetting that Reddie everyday for some times is in either one of two states:

1) he has just cleaned a high level dungeon (high level enough to give XP to a undead epic lich) so he's low on spell slots
2) he is waiting to clean a high level dungeon (high level enough to give XP to a undead epic lich) so he can't be low on spell slots later

So either there were or there will be better fights to use stronger spell, as two dwarves aren't as dangerous as a dungeon run in the tomb at all.
In case two, he might be willing to forgo the dungeon. Remember that these two dwarves still imply the OotS's presence, so there's a good chance his routine is out for today.

[Metastachydium]

In case two, he might be willing to forgo the dungeon. Remember that these two dwarves still imply the OotS's presence, so there's a good chance his routine is out for today.

Which is good enough a reason in and on itself not to use up his best spells just yet. Defeating the Order probably couldn't give Xykon XP, but their presence in the general area does mean that at least five more high-level opponents (Redcloak has seen the whole Order before at least once) and an unknown number of other mystery guests (cf. Minrah) may join the fight on Durkon's side any time.

[littlebum2002]

Which is good enough a reason in and on itself not to use up his best spells just yet. Defeating the Order probably couldn't give Xykon XP, but their presence in the general area does mean that at least five more high-level opponents (Redcloak has seen the whole Order before at least once) and an unknown number of other mystery guests (cf. Minrah) may join the fight on Durkon's side any time.

Wouldn't that be a good reason TO use your best spells now? Kill one member of the group before the rest can show up and give him support?

[Metastachydium]

Wouldn't that be a good reason TO use your best spells now? Kill one member of the group before the rest can show up and give him support?

I don't think so. I mean, that's what he went for with Implosion, and it turned out to be a mistake. Right now he would seem to be stalling and keeping the opponents he sees busy in some way that is not particularly costly, thus giving himself time to assess the tactical situation. Were a new member of the enemy party to intervene as Minrah did each time he tries to use a big gun, he'd waste his big guns early with little to no gain and he'd be facing up to seven enemy combatants all dry. And, y'see, unlike the Implosion, this take seems to be working so far.

[Synesthesy]

In case two, he might be willing to forgo the dungeon. Remember that these two dwarves still imply the OotS's presence, so there's a good chance his routine is out for today.

Sure; but try to explain that to Xykon :P

[skim172]

Alternative explanation: Redcloak isn't casting the spell "Animate Object"; Kraagor's statue started moving on its own and Redcloak is merely making the observation that the Object had become Animate.

Obviously, he's a bit distracted doing his evil villain spiel, so he wasn't able to expound on the topic that the big dwarf statue had suddenly started walking around.

Kraagor's statue isn't attacking Durkon - he just wants to give Durkon a hug.

[Jacky720]

Sure; but try to explain that to Xykon :P
:redcloak: Hey, these dwarves fell out of the sky and attacked me. A little help?
:xykon: Okay, Meteor Swarm.

[BaronOfHell]

His attempt at implosion failed. His attempt at harm failed. He doesn't know what sort of protection his enemies has, but he doesn't feel the need to heal yet either, so it doesn't seem like they are dangerous enough to pose a threat. They are more of an annoyance.

He wants to take them (or Durkon at least, but Minrah is a cleric too) out permanently, so that says:
1) They must not escape
2) Their bodies have to be destroyed

I don't know if creating a flank is the purpose here, and therefore he simply needs something sturdy to flank, not powerful. Perhaps it is something I am missing, or perhaps RC really didn't think he had anything better to do based on circumstances, of which we do not know all.

[Edea]

TBH I think he cast Animate Objects because making Kraagor's statue come to life and try to beat the crap out of Durkon is cool.

[Metastachydium]

Anyhow, has anyone suggested the sunk cost fallacy yet? It could be the reason.
Somehow.

[NerdyKris]

the statue could easily be destroyed in a single hit.

I see a weaponless dwarf acting purely defensively against it for at least three blows from the statue. That doesn't look like it can easily be destroyed in a single hit. And during a discussion that appears to have been renewed after Redcloak tried to end it.


Also why are you assuming that's a stone statue and not adamantium (or the D&D equivalent) or something?

[Gray Mage]

Summon monster has a casting time of 1 Round, which would give them time to flee. Also, it's vulnerable to banishment/other spells and might be possible that it doesn't work in the tunnels (as they're made out of that special stone).


Anyhow, has anyone suggested the sunk cost fallacy yet? It could be the reason.
Somehow.

Actually, this is him breaking out of his sunken cost, as his previous uses of summoned monsters did not pan out. :smalltongue:

[Jacky720]

Also why are you assuming that's a stone statue and not adamantium (or the D&D equivalent) or something?
Why would the statue be made of adamantium?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Why would the statue be made of adamantium?

Because when you are epic, you have a lot of it lying around (or purchasing it is going to be as trivially cheap as buying regular rock, especially if you are importing a whole mountainside of even-more-expensive magical rock), and it is harder to erode?

You might as well ask why rich guys gold-plate everything down to and including their toilets. Because they can - because when their cost is a rounding error on your pocket money, you might as well.

Grey Wolf

[InvisibleBison]

Why would the statue be made of adamantium?

Because if you want to commemorate a guy who valued strength above all else, it's rather appropriate to make his statue out of something super-strong.

[Nogster]

Kraagor's statue isn't attacking Durkon - he just wants to give Durkon a hug.

I bet you're half right! I believe this sequence is happening because the statue of Kraagor IS Kraagor. Things are too convenient here. Durkon doesn't have a hammer even though, as Red Cloak notes, it would make no difference. Now a negligibly useful spell conveniently is moving the statue and will force Durkon to react with magic, not a weapon. I'm wagering this whole sequence is going to force a break enchantment spell out of Durkon like he used on Haley in 815 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0815.html) and we're going to have Kraagor finally revealed.

[Keltest]

Because if you want to commemorate a guy who valued strength above all else, it's rather appropriate to make his statue out of something super-strong.

Its actually part of the classic anti-adventurer defense. When you make the door more valuable than whatever its guarding, random questing parties looking for Evils in a can to unleash are just going to take the door and go home, and then the dungeon will be known as having been looted, and nobody cares anymore.

[Riftwolf]

Also why are you assuming that's a stone statue and not adamantium (or the D&D equivalent) or something?

Because if it was adamantine, the bugbears would've powdered it and sold it to the Green Star Adepts by now.

[SlashDash]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he at the very least Redcloak knows that Durkon is a cleric. Summoning a monster against a cleric isn't a great tactic since many of them just memorize dismissal.
They also carry a lot of Save\Die spells that the statue is immune to. It just sounds to me like animating the statue IS a very smart tactic to utilize.





From the author's perspective, animating the statue would either serve to progress the plot later, if the statue is related to the gate somehow. Maybe moving it has a side effect we'll see later on.
Or, it could be the other way around. If the statue isn't related to the gate what so ever, it could be a smart trick by the author to get our interest to look for a red haring regarding the gate.

[KorvinStarmast]

Because if you want to commemorate a guy who valued strength above all else, it's rather appropriate to make his statue out of something super-strong. Sensible, even if it's more expensive.