[3.5] How would you make an anti-magic, anti-psionic type?

[Particle_Man]

I was thinking about various feats that are basically "anti-magical" or "anti-psionic". But then I am not that skilled in TO so I thought I would throw it to you guys. Is there a way, using Wotc hardcover 3.5 1st party books, level 1 to 20 (but not epic levels or divine ranks, to best design a warriorish or roguelike type that is specifically resistant to magic and psionics?

I guess there would be two categories here:

a) Fight fire with fire (the type that uses magic and psionics specifically to block magic and psionics).

b) Living in Hard Mode (the type that does not use magic and psionics, but still (through feats, etc.) works to block magic and psioinics.

Anyhow, what are your thoughts?

[Biggus]

I was thinking about various feats that are basically "anti-magical" or "anti-psionic". But then I am not that skilled in TO so I thought I would throw it to you guys. Is there a way, using Wotc hardcover 3.5 1st party books, level 1 to 20 (but not epic levels or divine ranks, to best design a warriorish or roguelike type that is specifically resistant to magic and psionics?

I assume by saying "warriorish or roguelike type" you're excluding full casters?



I guess there would be two categories here:

a) Fight fire with fire (the type that uses magic and psionics specifically to block magic and psionics).

b) Living in Hard Mode (the type that does not use magic and psionics, but still (through feats, etc.) works to block magic and psioinics.

Anyhow, what are your thoughts?

I don't know much about psionics, but for magic:

Play a golem that's had Awaken Construct (SpC) cast on it?

For hard mode, a dwarf Monk with Nymph's Kiss (BoED) gets 3 good saves and +3 to saves vs spells and SLAs, and with a high Dex and Wis gets an impressive touch AC. At 13th level they get SR too.

Alternatively, a drow with the Boost SR feat (BoVD) can get SR equal to 13+character level from level 1, albeit with a +2LA.

The feat Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment) from the Planar Handbook can get you the granted power of the Pride Domain which enables you to reroll 1's on saving throws, so if you can boost your saves high enough you only have a 1/400 chance of being affected by anything which allows a save.

[Endarire]

Anti-caster exercises in 3.P have resulted in this conclusion: High-level, high-power casters do it better in most circumstances because the easiest way to become resistant/immune to the bad stuff of casters is to cast the stuff yourself.

However, what sorts of casters do you intend to counter? Getting energy immunity differs from getting super high SR or immunity to [Death] and Transmutation effects.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Anti-caster exercises in 3.P have resulted in this conclusion: High-level, high-power casters do it better in most circumstances because the easiest way to become resistant/immune to the bad stuff of casters is to cast the stuff yourself.This. There have been thought exercise threads with challenges for casters, and the takeaway is that it's pretty much impossible to stand up to a well-designed caster type without being a caster yourself. There was one where the target was to kill or neutralize a self-resetting commoner who would die or be entrapped by something he was affected by, but he and his farm would become immune to that thing and everything related to that thing from then on. For instance, finger of death would result in immunity from all [Death] effects. Hail of stone resulted in immunity to bludgeoning damage. Entrapping him in a forcecage rendered him immune to [Force] effects. Earthquake cast on his farm would render the farm immune to [Earth] effects. And so on.

Thing is, there were ways to take others out that it's impossible to be immune to, as they don't affect them directly at all. For instance, shifting the entire plane to an outer plane by changing its inherent alignment to, say, Chaotic Evil, to 'port it to the Abyss. This kind of thing has officially been done before in Planescape canon, and it's why various layers of various planes have shifted to become layers of other planes. You can't become immune to that, because it 'ports everything but you to another plane entirely. And it's doable in 3e with magic.

You can get some really impressive things going with magic items (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863), but it's pretty much always outdone by actual spellcasting.

[Hellpyre]

As far as a simple, non-optimized option, spellthief is generally decent at winding down opposing spellcasters, and fits pretty squarely into 'rogueish' territory. Throw on the Mage Slayer feat chain and you are functioning at a decent level for a Type A, with minimal source diving or cognitive load to do your thing.

[Particle_Man]

As far as a simple, non-optimized option, spellthief is generally decent at winding down opposing spellcasters, and fits pretty squarely into 'rogueish' territory. Throw on the Mage Slayer feat chain and you are functioning at a decent level for a Type A, with minimal source diving or cognitive load to do your thing.

It would be interesting to balance when to take the mage slayer feats (with the attending lower caster level). Maybe also throw in the feat "live my nightmare" if I could survive the prerequisite.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Spell-to-Power Erudite, learn both Null Psionics Field and Antimagic Field.

Cleric 3/Ardent 1/Psychic Theurge (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b) 8+, at level 12 with the Magic Domain and Magic Mantle you can cast both Antimagic Field and Null Psionics Field. Be sure to get Selective Spell, and/or Initiate of Mystra.

[gorfnab]

How about a anti-caster race using a somewhat psuedo caster setup?. Originally posted here by MisterKaws (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-504447.html)

Karsite(ToM) Sorcerer 18

ACFs: Stalwart Sorcerer(CM), Battle Sorcerer(UA), Spell Shield(DgS), Dragonblood Sorcerer(RotD, lv4), Domain Access(CC), Dragonpacts (DM).

2 - LA, Medium Armor Proficiency, Martial Weapon proficiency, DR 5/Magic, SR 10+HD, Magic Drain(Sp, Cha-based), Spell Healing
3 - Stalwart, Battle Sorcerer, Spell Shield, Draconic Heritage, Draconic Breath
4 -
5 - Blue Dragon Lineage
6 - Dragonblood Sorcerer Sl-Ability(lv1, Nerveskitter), Dragonpact(lv2)
7 - Domain Access(CC)
8 - Obtain Familiar(CA), Sl-Ability(lv2, Wings of Cover), Dragonpact(lv3)
9 -
10- Sl-Ability(lv3, Wings of Cover), Dragonpact(lv4)
11- Improved Familiar(CW, Winter Wolf)
12- Sl-Ability(lv4, Celerity), Dragonpact(lv5)
13-
14- Arcane Strike, Sl-Ability(lv5, Arcane Fusion, CM), Dragonpact(lv6)
15-
16- Sl-Ability(lv6, Arcane Fusion), Dragonpact(lv7)
17- Spell-Linked Familiar
18- Sl-Ability(lv7, Arcane Fusion), Dragonpact(lv8)
19-
20- Martial Training(Shadow Stride)/Open, Sl-Ability(lv8, Greater Arcane Fusion), Dragonpact(lv9)


Here is a melee based anti-caster build I came up with some time ago.

1. Ranger - B: Track, Weapon Focus: Guisarme, Arcane Hunter ACF (CM)
2. Barbarian - Spirit Totem: Lion ACF (CC), Whirling Frenzy ACF (UA), {Optional: City Brawler ACF (Drg#349)}
3. Barbarian - Nemisis: Arcanists, Wolf Totem ACF
4. Warblade
5. Warblade
6. Warblade - Mage Slayer
7. Warblade
8. Warblade - B: Improved Initiative
9. Crusader - Blindfight
10. Crusader
11. Occult Slayer
12. Occult Slayer - Combat Reflexes
13. Occult Slayer
14. Occult Slayer
15. Occult Slayer - Pierce Magical Concealment
16. Witch Slayer
17. Witch Slayer
18. Witch Slayer - Stand Still
19. Witch Slayer
20. Witch Slayer

Note: The levels of Occult Slayer and Witch Slayer can be switched around as needed.

Warblade nets you the maneuvers Iron Heart Surge, Moment of Perfect Mind, and Action Before Thought. You also get Uncanny Dodge

Crusader nets you the Thicket of Blade Stance (combos nicely with Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon; wear spiked gauntlets or armor spikes to threaten nearby squares) and some healing maneuvers. it also nets you Indomitable Soul.

Witch Slayer nets you Mettle and Slippery Mind.

If playing human take EWP: Spiked Chain and WF: Spiked Chain instead of Guisarme.

[Hellpyre]

It would be interesting to balance when to take the mage slayer feats (with the attending lower caster level). Maybe also throw in the feat "live my nightmare" if I could survive the prerequisite.

The nice thing about spellthief and Mage Slayer is that the caster level for stolen spells is determied by the source's caster level, and explicitly not by the spellthief's own CL. So while you would reduce the mediocre casting inherent to the class, you wouldn't hurt your ability to steal and reuse spells at all. Live My Nightmare is fun, if a bit unreliable with the dual saves, but surviving the prereq is not too hard, since you just need to be exposed, and between spellgrace and a good Will save, disbeliving is not too hard. I think I'd rather take Stand Still in general, but Live My Nightmare is nice if you play a paranoid type.

[Kaleph]

When I myself addressed this optimization exercise for a real campaign (in a medium-optimization environment), the result was a gish specialized in dispelling and counterspelling; this seems quite fitting to (one of) your premises.

You find an example in my sha'ir handbook (see my sig), but in general every gish that may use the inquisition domain power, divine defiance and arcane mastery is good to go.

[King of Nowhere]

While at sufficiently high op a spellcaster always wins, you can mske a succesful mundzne mage slayer that works well up to mid-high optimization. Start with monk and aim to increase saving throws and touch AC, get spell resistance (not sure by raw, but most monk prestige classes advance all the monk stuff except spell resistance; giving up some of that for spell resistance is a reasonable trade you can offer your dm), and you get real though to hurt. My character is based around this concept, and it's fun to play.

If the casters are bringing out the stuff that bypasses all those resistances, then it's too high op to make that build work

[MaxiDuRaritry]

When I myself addressed this optimization exercise for a real campaign (in a medium-optimization environment), the result was a gish specialized in dispelling and counterspelling; this seems quite fitting to (one of) your premises.This doesn't work against psionic powers with instantaneous duration (cannot be dispelled or counterspelled), nor does it work against supernatural abilities (also cannot be dispelled or counterspelled). It also doesn't work if the magic/psionics transparency is set to "none," unless you have the Magic mantle available to you.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For my Cleric 3/Ardent 1/Psychic Theurge 8+ with the magic domain/mantle suggestion, you can also include Divine Defiance, Improved Counterspell, and DMM: Heighten.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Is there any printed way to counterspell psionics or dispel/counterspell supernatural abilities?

[Kaleph]

This doesn't work against psionic powers with instantaneous duration (cannot be dispelled or counterspelled), nor does it work against supernatural abilities (also cannot be dispelled or counterspelled). It also doesn't work if the magic/psionics transparency is set to "none," unless you have the Magic mantle available to you.


Is there any printed way to counterspell psionics or dispel/counterspell supernatural abilities?

We use this (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060613a), because we consider it kinda official. So basically divine defiance may work also against psionic powers. Obviously I also assume that transparency is on, as it is the default rule. Then of course, other table other rules, but what we use is relatively close to a generic standard, if there is one.

PS: I personally know no way to counter Su-abilities.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

We use this (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060613a), because we consider it kinda official. So basically divine defiance may work also against psionic powers. Obviously I also assume that transparency is on, as it is the default rule. Then of course, other table other rules, but what we use is relatively close to a generic standard, if there is one.

PS: I personally know no way to counter Su-abilities.Unfortunately (or fortunately, if you're a manifester), you cannot counterspell a psionic power unless you have an ability that explicitly overcomes that rule. Changing a counterspell to an immediate action via Divine Defiance doesn't allow it to affect a psionic power being manifested. And using dispel magic to counterspell a power still wouldn't work; you'd have to make a dispel attempt on it after it's been manifested, but not during manifestation, so instantaneous powers are still not affected by it. And dispelling a longer duration power after it's already in effect will affect anyone targeted or caught in the AoE, and they will still be affected by any part of the effect that can't be dispelled, such as damage, or if the temporary effect managed to kill them, interrupt a spell they were casting, etc. So the power has to be already in effect and non-instantaneous in order for dispel magic/psionics to affect it, and even then, you won't necessarily undo all the power's effects.

The only ways to "counterspell" a psionic power (that I'm aware of) are by making the power fizzle via damage or some other effect (such as manifesting ectoplasmic shambler), blocking Line of Sight or Line of Effect during manifestation, or throwing up a null psionics field or dead magic zone via a contingency of some sort. I mean, there are options there, but none of them involve counterspelling, because you just can't do that (barring some means of explicitly overcoming that particular rule).

And if the manifester took Supernatural Transformation [Psionics], even some of that wouldn't work, since [Su] abilities don't fizzle.

[Kaleph]

And using dispel magic to counterspell a power still wouldn't work; you'd have to make a dispel attempt on it after it's been manifested, but not during manifestation, so instantaneous powers are still not affected by it.

Well, the article I've posted explicitly says that it works, and that's enough for many DMs.

Anyhow, can you please explain better your point regarding dispel magic not affecting instantaneous powers? I am not aware of such a rule.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Is there any printed way to counterspell psionics or dispel/counterspell supernatural abilities?

Ready an action or similar to attack them when they're casting/manifesting to force a concentration check. If you use a weapon with Sudden Stunning or similar and they fail the save the concentration check doesn't matter. You can also have Contingency: Teleport behind an opponent I perceive manifesting a power but not doing so defensively, which gives you an AoO that can disrupt them. Be sure you tell them it's nothing personal. I did something similar with a lich opponent, which used its paralyzing touch for a disastrous effect, with an added bonus of nobody made the check to realize the paralyzed character was still alive (due to distance) making everyone think they were killed outright by the attack.

Iron Heart Surge is about it for dispelling supernatural abilities. It's the only reason the Dragonfire Adept 1 with Clinging Breath, Lingering Breath, and Enlarge Breath doesn't automatically wipe out the setting by filling the entire world and cosmos beyond with an infinite-size, infinite-duration cloud of 1d6 damage per round (since metabreath feats can be applied as many times as you want, it just increases the time you wait for the next breath by that much longer).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well, the article I've posted ecplicitly says that it works, and that's enough for many DMs.Counterspelling a psionic power is 100% wrong by the rules, since you can't counterspell a power, flat-out. You can dispel it after it's been manifested, but that's not a counterspell.

Found here (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#:~:text=The%20manifestat ion%20of%20powers%20by,also%20simply%20called%20ps ionic%20creatures).):"The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures)."

and

Found here (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/overview.htm#psiLikeAbilities): "Psi-like abilities do not work in a null psionics field and are subject to power resistance if the power or spell the ability duplicates would be subject to power resistance. A psi-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A psi-like ability that can be used at will has no use limit. Using a psi-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a psi-like ability defensively and avoid provoking attacks of opportunity, just as when using a power or casting a spell. A psi-like ability can be interrupted just as a spell can be. Psi-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled."

"Oh, psionics aren't counterspellable by the rules, except you can counterspell them" makes no sense. It goes against the rules and is therefore wrong. The only exception is if they're your DM and want to instate houserules to that effect, and the article isn't the DM and can't do that.


Anyhow, can you please explain better your point regarding dispel magic not affecting instantaneous powers? I am not aware of such a rule.Instantaneous powers are bursts of psionic energy that are thereafter no longer psionic after the manifestation takes effect. Psionic powers can't be counterspelled, and you can't dispel an instantaneous effect, to wit (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dispelPsionics.htm):

"The effect of a power with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the psionic effect is already over before the dispel psionics can take effect."

So, yeah. The article is wrong. That's not counterspelling; that's dispelling an effect already in place, which will affect everyone targeted by it or in the AoE for the instant it's in place, and they'll suffer any long-term effects from it even if it's dispelled nigh instantaneously after being manifested.

[Kaleph]

Counterspelling a psionic power is 100% wrong by the rules, since you can't counterspell a power, flat-out. You can dispel it after it's been manifested, but that's not a counterspell.

Found here (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#:~:text=The%20manifestat ion%20of%20powers%20by,also%20simply%20called%20ps ionic%20creatures).):"The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures)."

and

Found here (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/overview.htm#psiLikeAbilities): "Psi-like abilities do not work in a null psionics field and are subject to power resistance if the power or spell the ability duplicates would be subject to power resistance. A psi-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A psi-like ability that can be used at will has no use limit. Using a psi-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a psi-like ability defensively and avoid provoking attacks of opportunity, just as when using a power or casting a spell. A psi-like ability can be interrupted just as a spell can be. Psi-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled."

"Oh, psionics aren't counterspellable by the rules, except you can counterspell them" makes no sense. It goes against the rules and is therefore wrong. The only exception is if they're your DM and want to instate houserules to that effect, and the article isn't the DM and can't do that.

Instantaneous powers are bursts of psionic power that are thereafter no longer psionic after the manifestation takes effect. Psionic powers can't be counterspelled, and you can't dispel an instantaneous effect, to wit (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dispelPsionics.htm): "The effect of a power with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the psionic effect is already over before the dispel psionics can take effect."

So, yeah. The article is wrong. That's not counterspelling; that's dispelling an effect already in place, which will affect everyone targeted by it or in the AoE for the instant it's in place, and they'll suffer any long-term effects from it even if it's dispelled nigh instantaneously after being manifested.

Ah, I see. Yes, these are things we've considered when we've done our small research, and that was no surprise - psionics are based on spell-like abilities, and the text you're quoting is basically the same in both cases (sp-like and psionics). And the same exception - dispel magic works as counterspell - is again made in both cases, as you can see here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040420a). And you know, another article by the chief author of the 3.5 core rules explaining the 3.5 core rules, is a nice confirmation for us. For you maybe not, but for us, it is.

Anyhow there's again another point, i.e. the text of divine defiance explicitly says that the feat allows to counter also spell-like abilities, which psionics are based upon. This is potentially a third confirmation, if it is ever needed.

As always, every table decides as it wants, regardless of our smapl discussion here. But I think it's good to provide as many information as possible, so that everone can decide for himself.

[Coeruleum]

I usually prefer ardent/cleric with the magic mantle and divine defiance. They can also easily be a more martial-type character since, well, it's cleric/ardent. However, lots of builds involving psionics and usually also magic do anti-mage and anti-psionics exceptionally well. Mind mage, psychic warrior, psionic artificer, thrallherd, and more all tend to be really good against just a straight spellcaster since your action economy is a lot better than theirs and you can generally come at them from the angle of magic and psionics even if there is transparency since often spells don't reference powers even when powers reference spells (e.g. Detect Scrying vs. Detect Remote Viewing) and sometimes transparency is asymmetrical (e.g. mind reading telepathy abilities are enchantment rather than divination effects RAW and something like permanent telepathy from 5th level telepath ACF isn't an enchantment or divination effect.) If you have both spells and powers, you are really good to go, since the best action economy I've ever had is on a telepath/wizard mind mage (and telepath/anything else arcane would work well too since you can apply your Quicken Spell as a free action with psi points even on a spontaneous caster due to how it's written) and an ardent/cleric (psychic theurge or gestalt) has divine counterspells and the magic mantle. A druid/ardent could be pretty good, but they only get counterspells at 4th level instead of 3rd and you don't progress wildshape and other druid features from psychic theurge so that seems a lot worse, though in a gestalt game druid/ardent might be nice. If you really want the most counterspells possible, ardent/erudite with the magic mantle and all of the psionic focus feats and quicken power is probably the easiest since you can just spend all your points (from two 9th-level manifesting classes!) on counterspells but you might have a hard time doing anything else.

[Gnaeus]

Most muggle builds are improved with dips. Something like Hexblade3/Monk2/Divine Mind 4 would have evasion, mettle, base saves of +7/+4/+10 + charisma to saves + charisma to saves again against spells and spell likes. It isn't immune to magic, but if the enemy doesn't know not to throw things that have saves it is 95% immune to most magic.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Start with anti-necromancy.