Good old bloodstorm blade confusion

[justiceforall]

Love the class but the wording is so confusing. I've checked a few of the thread on GitP already for this and found some answers to things but here's a few I still either just wanted to double check, or completely couldn't figure out:

1. Does the 4th level ability Lightning Ricochet completely supercede/make redundant the earlier class ability to give weapons the returning property?
2. Thunderous Throw and "ranged attack roll as melee"... it says it counts for feats and such, but the wording would seem to rule out the use of something like Shadowblade adding DEX to damage on a throw?
3. Ranged Weapon Mastery, kind of a double question here - 1. does that feat work on daggers when thrown, and 2. if I use Thunderous Throw does it then shut off that feat?
4. How does Lightning Ricochet work if I TWF? Does it work on both weapons?
5. Lightning Ricochet + Palm Throw (Master Thrower) - I would need two daggers in my possession to use this even with Lightning Ricochet?

[Darg]

Love the class but the wording is so confusing. I've checked a few of the thread on GitP already for this and found some answers to things but here's a few I still either just wanted to double check, or completely couldn't figure out:

1. Does the 4th level ability Lightning Ricochet completely supercede/make redundant the earlier class ability to give weapons the returning property?
2. Thunderous Throw and "ranged attack roll as melee"... it says it counts for feats and such, but the wording would seem to rule out the use of something like Shadowblade adding DEX to damage on a throw?
3. Ranged Weapon Mastery, kind of a double question here - 1. does that feat work on daggers when thrown, and 2. if I use Thunderous Throw does it then shut off that feat?
4. How does Lightning Ricochet work if I TWF? Does it work on both weapons?
5. Lightning Ricochet + Palm Throw (Master Thrower) - I would need two daggers in my possession to use this even with Lightning Ricochet?

1. Yes, it is an upgrade.
2. They are treated as melee attacks. Shadow Blade would apply while Thunderous Throw is active. They are still ranged weapons so point blank shot and precise shot still apply. However improved precise shot would not.
3. a)Yes. Only ranged weapons can make ranged attacks. b) No. Thunderous Throw only applies to the attack type, not the weapon type. You are using a ranged weapon to make melee attacks (from range). That said a dagger is also a melee weapon.
4. Yes. To imagine this feat, picture the weapons immediately returning to hand the moment it connects allowing you to make your full attack routine without the Quickdraw feat and extra weapons.
5. Yes. You throw the weapons at the same time; hence the single attack roll. Whether lightning ricochet works with both weapons is up to your DM as the feature only mentions weapon in the singular per attack. The second weapon would definitely benefit from the Returning Attacks feature however.

[Gruftzwerg]

Love the class but the wording is so confusing. I've checked a few of the thread on GitP already for this and found some answers to things but here's a few I still either just wanted to double check, or completely couldn't figure out:

1. Does the 4th level ability Lightning Ricochet completely supercede/make redundant the earlier class ability to give weapons the returning property?
2. Thunderous Throw and "ranged attack roll as melee"... it says it counts for feats and such, but the wording would seem to rule out the use of something like Shadowblade adding DEX to damage on a throw?
3. Ranged Weapon Mastery, kind of a double question here - 1. does that feat work on daggers when thrown, and 2. if I use Thunderous Throw does it then shut off that feat?
4. How does Lightning Ricochet work if I TWF? Does it work on both weapons?
5. Lightning Ricochet + Palm Throw (Master Thrower) - I would need two daggers in my possession to use this even with Lightning Ricochet?

1: yes, Lightning Ricochet is a direct upgrade to the regular returning ability. The normal returning ability works at the start of your next turn, which limits you to a single ranged attack per weapon thrown. Lightning Ricochet on the other hand is a free action and can be used at any time in your round as much as you need it (for a full attack).

2: TT changes your ranged attack into a melee attack. This means you can apply any kind of modifiers that you could have applied to a regular melee attack. This includes things like the Shadowblade or Charge-related feats as example. You just need to keep in mind that still all range penalties apply (range increment, shooting into melee, cover...)

3: Sadly no. Because, while a dagger can be thrown, it is not a ranged weapon in terms of 3.5

Melee and Ranged Weapons

Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.
Your dagger is still a melee weapon and you aren't going to change that. Which means, you can use the regular melee equivalent of the feat: "melee weapon mastery"

4: Sure why not? Throw anything is a non action consuming ability (that you are allowed to throw the melee weapon, not the attack action itself). So you can apply it on as many weapons as you wish. And remember that you already could have used twf with thrown weapon or crossbow the regular way. There is really no problem here.

5: Yes you would need 2 daggers. And imho I would advice against the ability in most chases. Because the main stat of a Bloodstorm Blade is still Str and that gets ignored by the ability (for the dmg rolls). Even Shadow Blade feat doesn't change that. You would further need to invest into Weapon Finesse feat to have Dex as your mainstat, which ain't imho worth the feat(s) invested.

If anything is unclear or you have any further questions, feel free to ask em.
And if you haven't seen em by now, I have several optimized BSB builds for some ideas/infos: (links see signature)
ShurikeNado - is a ranged ubercharger that abuses Whirlwind Attack with his shuriken.
Hammerdin of Moradin - is a similar ranged ubercharger that focuses on his warhammer
Shivering Tornado of Death (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?528541-Shivering-Tornado-of-Death-Arcane-Channeling-optimization)- abuses ranged arcane channeling full attacks with whirlwind to apply Shivering Touch to anyone in reach

[Darg]

3: Sadly no. Because, while a dagger can be thrown, it is not a ranged weapon in terms of 3.5

Your dagger is still a melee weapon and you aren't going to change that. Which means, you can use the regular melee equivalent of the feat: "melee weapon mastery"

That's an interesting interpretation. If that is the case, nothing in the rules actually allows melee thrown weapons to actually be thrown as only ranged weapons can make ranged attacks.

[Gruftzwerg]

That's an interesting interpretation. If that is the case, nothing in the rules actually allows melee thrown weapons to actually be thrown as only ranged weapons can make ranged attacks.

1. melee weapon != thrown weapon and melee weapon != melee attack

2. ranged weapon != thrown weapon

3. But thrown weapon are ranged attack (unless you have levels in BSB or similar mechanics)

A thrown weapon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#thrownWeapons) can either be a melee weapon or a ranged weapon depending on its type.
And it is the thrown weapon quality, the dagger has due to its reach increment entry, that allows you to make ranged attacks. But that doesn't turn your "melee weapon" into a "ranged weapon". Take a look at the differentiation in the weapons table (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#tableWeapons).

"We have rules that suppress common sense!" ^^

edit: corrected a sentence to hopefully prevent misinterpretation.

[Darg]

1. melee weapon != thrown weapon and melee weapon != melee attack

2. ranged weapon != thrown weapon

3. But thrown weapon are ranged attack (unless you have levels in BSB or similar mechanics)

A thrown weapon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#thrownWeapons) can either be a melee weapon or a ranged weapon depending on its type.
And it is the thrown weapon quality, the dagger has due to its reach increment entry, that allows you to make ranged attacks. But that doesn't turn your "melee weapon" into a "ranged weapon". Take a look at the differentiation in the weapons table (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#tableWeapons).

"We have rules that suppress common sense!" ^^

edit: corrected a sentence to hopefully prevent misinterpretation.

It is also true that melee weapons can't make ranged attacks. Being a thrown weapon itself doesn't give its ability to deliver ranged attacks. Ranged Attacks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm?pagewanted=all#rangedAttacks) can only be made by ranged weapons except by certain exceptions such as the Throw Anything feat. Melee thrown weapons have to be a ranged weapon, or they suffer from the rule:


Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

This means you can't make an attack action or a full-attack action. On the other hand, you wouldn't suffer from ranged penalties.

Edit: I decided to look in the Rules Compendium to see if it says anything. The only thing that I found was an addition to the Melee and Ranged category:

Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that aren’t effective in melee. Some melee weapons can be thrown, bridging these two categories.

This seems to imply that melee weapons designed to be thrown are also ranged weapons.

[ixrisor]

There’s a simple fix to this problem: read it the other way. “Ranged weapons are (thrown weapons) or (projectile weapons that are not effective in melee)” rather than “ranged weapons are (thrown weapons or projectile weapons) that are not effective in melee”. If the latter meaning was intended, then it would probably be written “ranged weapons are thrown or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee”.

[Darg]

That's my original take on the reading myself. Thanks to the lack of clarification, melee weapons made to be thrown are both simultaneously melee and ranged and benefit from effects that specifically mention either weapon type. One could house rule otherwise though, but it's not like thrown weapons make melee and ranged attacks at the same time and aren't feat starved as it is.

[justiceforall]

Thanks for the help guys.

Another related question - can you feint someone then use a thrown attack (thunderous throw) to hit them as flat footed? Feint specifically references melee attack, which your attacks now count as?

Also I should point out since some people commented to the effect above - I'm not asking if any of this is a good idea for optimisation purposes. This is strictly a "how does it work" request thread

[Darg]

Technically yes, it would work. Practically however, might be a different story. Feinting is much more devastating the closer you are to your opponent in reality as they are forced to be focused on a much wider range of information. A normal person has an eyesight focus range of 2 degrees beyond which they rely more on extrasensory perception. Feinting generally relies on fooling that perception in a way that leaves them open to attack. At a distance you shrink that range exponentially making it far easier to perceive the feint itself unless they have poor eyesight. At that point there is now need to feint anyway.

Nothing in the rules says you can't feint at range, however, so go for it if your DM doesn't mind.