Is it me, or are there just not enough spells to make the divine sorcerer awesome?

[Klorox]

Ok, here’s my take.

In theory, I thought the divine soul sorcerer was absolutely amazing. Here comes a dude who has access to the entire sorcerer spell list AND the cleric spell list too!

Then I tried to map out his spells known, and that’s where I ran into a problem.

There are just too many spells that are from both lists that I want.

I’ve never played a sorcerer but one thing I’ve noticed is I have never seen a player say, “ugh, what spell should I choose? There aren’t any good ones”

When you consider scrolls and magic items that can cast spells from either list, that helps this characters potential, but I don’t think it’s really all that.

[heavyfuel]

Yeah, that's how I've always felt bout the subclass.

In theory you're able to do both arcane and divine magic, but in practice you just half-ass both since Sorcerers get crap for spells known.

This problem is then further compounded by the action economy, which means you're never doing both arcane and divine magic at the same time, but just alternating between the two.

[Pex]

The limited spells known has always been a problem for Sorcerer. Adding cleric spells doesn't change that. What it does change is adding more strategic options of what you can do. You cannot do everything. You have to accept that. When you do that focus on one or two strategies you'd like to accomplish and stick with it. Choose the spells and metamagic that will make you very good at what you do. It could mean having particular spells of each level. It could mean stocking up on low level spells to spend one or two higher level slots on sorcery points but still have a couple of big gun spells. It could mean getting rid of low level spells when you can for something better at higher level, using low level slots for sorcery points or pure defense like Shield and Absorb Elements.

What also helps is to play up the roleplay. What does it mean to be a Divine Soul in the game world? What deity are you the scion of? How does that relate to the people you meet? You have the Charisma. Play up the social skills. Are you a party dude? Proselytizer? Instigator? Diplomat?

[Jerrykhor]

Yeah Divine Soul sorc is one of those that look a lot better in theory than practice. Their other problem is that most cleric spells dont play nice with Metamagic. Twin Healing Word is about the most clutch thing you can do, if the situation requires it. Other than that, all the same frustrations of having too few spells known still apply.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Divine also needs to be considered in the context of other Sorcerer sub classes that at least in part solve actual shortcomings or have better synergy with the base class, particularly Shadow and Dragon. Both make more robust characters, with HP and AC for the Dragon and Strength of the Grave for Shadow. Also for Shadow 120 feet darkvision is awesome and opens up race options, while the Hound effectively provides something similar to Heightened Spell, a big deal when lack of metamagic options is an issue. Finally, the Dragon's spell damage bonus has great synergy with metamagic blaster options.

[Mikal]

Use the spell versatility trait from the class features variant UA.

Let’s you swap one spell per long rest with another of equal level. Makes this subclass a whole lot better.

[Cikomyr2]

I got thinking that any spellcaster would benefit of low level dip in another class to widen their list of spell known. The divine soul sorcerer most of all. You can unlearn the "basic" level 1 cleric spells and the domain spells, which would free a consequent load off their required spell list, and focus on higher level spell knowns.

[Pex]

Yeah Divine Soul sorc is one of those that look a lot better in theory than practice. Their other problem is that most cleric spells dont play nice with Metamagic. Twin Healing Word is about the most clutch thing you can do, if the situation requires it. Other than that, all the same frustrations of having too few spells known still apply.

Twin is the best metamagic for cleric spells.

Twin Guidance, Twin Spare The Dying if you can't do Twin Healing Word for some reason, Twin Guiding Bolt, Twin Sanctuary, Twin Protection From Evil & Good, Twin Shield of Faith, Twin Command, Twin Inflict Wounds, and those are just Cantrips and First Level spells. Of course you can't do everything. Pick your strategy.

Sadly you can't do Twin Spiritual Weapon because you create the weapon and then use it. The spell isn't targeting.

[Hael]

I love the DS sorceror, its one of the most powerful subclasses in the game. What I love the most about it, is how many different build paths there are. You can make a pretty effective offtank, you can make one of the best buffers in the game, you can make a pretty strong support healer, you can make a very strong damage dealer and you can make a pretty strong battlefield controller.

What it does require, is to have some plan (that synergizes with your party). Otherwise it is very easy to create something that is very limited and that doesn't actually stack up. In other words its a class that is very easy to build wrong. That includes race and feat choices.

It is the closest thing to fixing the pretty poor base class, but as usual there are going to be some pretty rough lvls early.

[MaxWilson]

Ok, here’s my take.

In theory, I thought the divine soul sorcerer was absolutely amazing. Here comes a dude who has access to the entire sorcerer spell list AND the cleric spell list too!

Then I tried to map out his spells known, and that’s where I ran into a problem.

There are just too many spells that are from both lists that I want.

I’ve never played a sorcerer but one thing I’ve noticed is I have never seen a player say, “ugh, what spell should I choose? There aren’t any good ones”

Then you aren't the target audience for Divine Soul.

On the other hand, if you're the kind of guy who looks at Dominate Monster, Earthquake, Incendiary Cloud, and Sunbust and says, "That's a terrible set of 8th level spells! I wish I could cast something like Holy Aura instead," then you might be the Divine Soul target market. Similarly if you've ever looked at the third-level cleric spell list and said to yourself, "boy, I wish I had some real crowd control like Hypnotic Pattern instead of this front-liner semi-crowd control Spirit Guardians thing," you might be the Divine Soul target market too.

It's all about cherry-picking the best spells from two lists.

[Satori01]

Their other problem is that most cleric spells dont play nice with Metamagic.
This statement is baffling, to me.
Either Twin or Extend Metamagic options work well with cleric spells.

Favored by the Gods is a good saving throw boost.

[Edea]

I think Divine Soul's list benefit is front-loaded. The expansion helps the most with your cantrips (guidance, sacred flame) and 1st level spells(bless, healing word, guiding bolt); once you get past those, the sorcerer list choices get competitive enough that there's just not enough room on the list for any cleric stuff (except for heal, I guess?).

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I think Divine Soul's list benefit is front-loaded. The expansion helps the most with your cantrips (guidance, sacred flame) and 1st level spells(bless, healing word, guiding bolt); once you get past those, the sorcerer list choices get competitive enough that there's just not enough room on the list for any cleric stuff (except for heal, I guess?).

Divine Soul sorcerer had become my group's White Mage and we got rid of the cleric. DS Sorcerer is straight up awesome but not exactly OP.

Side note, love the name and avatar! We need a VIII-2 at some point (unless Type-0 counts enough as one lol).

[Dr. Cliché]

The one thing I'll say is that sorcerers basically need all their spells to be as versatile or universally useful as possible.

They simply can't afford to 'waste' precious known spell on stuff like Feather Fall or Water Breathing.

To that end, I can see the Divine Soul sorcerer being good simply because it has 2 spell lists from which to pick the best selection of good and/or versatile spells.

And I think spells like Healing Word, Spiritual Weapon, Mass Healing Word, Spirit Guardians, Freedom of Movement etc. definitely present some strong options in that regard. It also gets you some excellent Cantrips like Guidance and Toll the Dead (incidentally, the latter seems like something that should absolutely be available to Shadow Sorcerers but for some reason just isn't because instead we apparently needed yet another class able to throw Darkness around).

Of course, the sorcerer spell list is fairly solid already, so whether players actually feel the need to pilfer from the Cleric list is another matter. I can see it going either way, quite honestly. Myself, I'd maybe lean towards the greater versatility of the Cleric list, but I can certainly see why others would want to focus on further improving strengths rather than shoring up weaknesses.



Divine also needs to be considered in the context of other Sorcerer sub classes that at least in part solve actual shortcomings or have better synergy with the base class, particularly Shadow and Dragon. Both make more robust characters, with HP and AC for the Dragon and Strength of the Grave for Shadow.

Strength of the Grave is utter garbage, though. Especially compared to +2d4 to a failed save. I can tell you which of those is more likely to save you from death in 99% of situations.

[sithlordnergal]

I will admit, you have a point. The Sorcerer's limited spell's known is a detriment that all Sorcerers have, but Divine Souls feel that sting the most thanks to having access to Cleric and Sorcerer spells. As a result, players of that subclass really need to put a lot of thought into their build, and not just thoughts on what's one level away. I'm talking plan out what you're gonna take for your second level spells while you're level 1 as you plan out your Metamagic and 1st level spells.

You'll always run into the "I wish I had X and Y spell, but I can only take one" issue, that's just an inherent fact of the class. But as long as you have a clear goal you should have an easy time choosing.

[DevilMcam]

I think the divine soul is actually amazing at beeing the divine soul.

It might not be a great sorcerer or cleric but it's a great hybrid.

The 2 main issues with sorcrer are the number of spell known (where DS doesn't really help, i'll grant that), and a Poor Tier 1 where you have too few Sorecery point to do anything else thn beeing a subpar wizard.
Thanks to Divine Soul you get the amazing low level cleric spell List.
The issue with the cleric spell list is that it not getting great mid-high level spells. But since you are a sorcerer you can now metamagic-up all the good cleric spell you had to keep them relevant.
Twinned death ward? Twinned holy weapon, protection from energy. AND you can go back to playing with the arcane big gunslike polymorph, animate object, synaptic static, mass suggestion and their friends.

The sorc CON save prficiency and favored by the gods will also help you keep concentration on the great Cleric spells that needs it.

Sure it is a worse blaster that dragon, and possibly a worse controller than shadow. But it is a Grand Buffer and overall support.

[Chronos]

When you consider scrolls and magic items that can cast spells from either list, that helps this characters potential, but I don’t think it’s really all that.
A common misconception. If you're a Divine Soul who hasn't taken Lightning Bolt, and you find a scroll of Lightning Bolt, you can use it, because it's on your spell list (just like any other sorcerer). But if you haven't taken Lesser Restoration, and you find a scroll of Lesser Restoration, then you can't use it, because it's not on your spell list. Divine Soul lets you pick out a limited number of spells from the cleric list, and those spells are added to your class spell list and your spells known, but all other cleric spells remain unavailable to you.

Now, if you had taken Lesser Restoration as a spell known, and then found a scroll of it, then you could use the scroll. But it wouldn't be as useful then, because you could just cast the spell anyway. All it'd accomplish would be to spare you a slot.

[Dr. Cliché]

As a result, players of that subclass really need to put a lot of thought into their build, and not just thoughts on what's one level away. I'm talking plan out what you're gonna take for your second level spells while you're level 1 as you plan out your Metamagic and 1st level spells.

I think this goes for all sorcerers, to be perfectly honest. After all, the spell selection problem has nothing to do with the Divine Soul and is instead an inherent class problem.

It also seems rather counter-intuitive for a spontaneous caster whose magic is innate rather than learned through careful study.

[GorogIrongut]

The difficult part of being a Sorceror is that you have limited spells. Which means that you need to carefully choose which spells work best according to your needs. That means you may need to limit the amount of concentration spells because you can only concentrate on one spell at a time. It may mean that you need to leave out a particular spell that you like because it doesn't mesh well with the metamagics that you've chosen.

Sorcerors are the ultimate specialists. In other places, it's been said that the roll of a caster is either in Support, Blaster, or as a Sociopath (they manipulate creatures or events with magic to sculpt a series of events to their own benefit). In my experience you can only do one of these things exceptionally well. Better than any other caster. You are still able to be tolerable at one of these other pillars. And you suck hard at the final pillar.

Choose your spells according to how you want your sorceror to specialize. Choose your metamagics according to that specialization. Do both of those and you will be exceptionally effective playing a sorceror.

Now, here's the rub. The sorceror has loads of good spells with minimal spells known. By adding cleric spells to the mix, you still don't increase the total of spells known. And on the surface it might seem like a weakness. But... having a larger spell list to choose from allows you tweak your specialization just that little bit farther.

When I play a normal Sorceror, I tend to go Psychopath with a splash of Blaster. When I play a DS, I tend to go Support with a splash of blaster. I do this because cleric spells of a certain type can benefit so much from certain Metamagics. Extended Aid. Twinned Death Ward. Extended Spell Guardians. The list goes on and on and it can be quite powerful. Twinned Healing Word has saved so many encounters.

It's important to note that a lot of the good cleric spells I just mentioned aren't concentration spells. This is important to note because so many of the good sorceror spells are concentration spells. If you pick all concentration spells because they're the most powerful, once you get one up, you'll have a hard time doing anything but cantrip casting because your one concentration slot is already taken.

So anyways, you can't play a normal sorceror like a DS. Just like playing a DS like a standard sorceror is asking for grief.

Identify what spells you have available. Identify which spells can do the same thing as other spells (i.e. Suggestion can do everything Blindness/Deafness does and more). Whittle that list down and find out what pillars of play you want your sorceror to be good at. Pretty soon you'll have an effective sorceror who can cover most bases within its specialties.

[JackPhoenix]

A common misconception. If you're a Divine Soul who hasn't taken Lightning Bolt, and you find a scroll of Lightning Bolt, you can use it, because it's on your spell list (just like any other sorcerer). But if you haven't taken Lesser Restoration, and you find a scroll of Lesser Restoration, then you can't use it, because it's not on your spell list. Divine Soul lets you pick out a limited number of spells from the cleric list, and those spells are added to your class spell list and your spells known, but all other cleric spells remain unavailable to you.

Now, if you had taken Lesser Restoration as a spell known, and then found a scroll of it, then you could use the scroll. But it wouldn't be as useful then, because you could just cast the spell anyway. All it'd accomplish would be to spare you a slot.

You can, in theory, pick cleric spells and switch them out on the next level-up, and they'll stay on your list, allowing you to use them from scrolls later. But that's pretty contrived, and good luck finding a GM buying into that.

[Klorox]

I'd really like to see some sample spell lists of pure divine sorcerers at each tier.

Just as an example of what y'all think is best.

Then we can compare it to another sorcerers list and see how they match up.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I'd really like to see some sample spell lists of pure divine sorcerers at each tier.

Just as an example of what y'all think is best.

Then we can compare it to another sorcerers list and see how they match up.

It's not exactly a fair comparison, when you choose Divine Soul as your Sorcerer subclass it usually means that you're not prioritizing the typical Sorcerer spells, otherwise you'd have just stuck with some other subclass.

A Divine Soul list is likely to be very different from, say, a Draconic Bloodline one, and the goals of their spell choice will be different as well.

[Edea]

I'd really like to see some sample spell lists of pure divine sorcerers at each tier.

Just as an example of what y'all think is best.

Then we can compare it to another sorcerers list and see how they match up.

Cantrips: guidance, sacred flame, frostbite, mage hand, minor illusion, prestidigitation
1st: bless, guiding bolt, healing word
2nd: misty step, suggestion, web
3rd: haste, fireball
4th: greater invisibility, polymorph
5th: telekinesis, wall of stone
6th: heal
7th: teleport
8th: dominate monster
9th: wish

But, despite that list mostly being sorcerer stuff anyway, those early-game cleric spells are amazing throughout the game, and will frequently be the target of you metamagic effects (probably would grab distant and twin, then careful at 10th and quicken at 17th).

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Strength of the Grave is utter garbage, though. Especially compared to +2d4 to a failed save. I can tell you which of those is more likely to save you from death in 99% of situations.
That's a vast overstatement, and you've picked out just part of the Shadow's 1st level ability, which includes the 120' darkvision. Since you've decided to focus on just looking at 1st level abilities then I'll play along: the Dragon is the clear winner among the 3 to me with HP and Armor that make it more comparable to Bards and Warlocks. In that light the more limited spell list stacks up well (as opposed to comparisons with Wizard).

[Dr. Cliché]

That's a vast overstatement

"Oh man, if only I could have the Half-Orc feature, except that it's no longer automatic and highly liable to fail, whilst also having even more caveats."



and you've picked out just part of the Shadow's 1st level ability

No, I reference the part of the ability that you specifically brought up as being a supposedly worthwhile improvement in durability.



the Dragon is the clear winner among the 3 to me with HP and Armor that make it more comparable to Bards and Warlocks. In that light the more limited spell list stacks up well (as opposed to comparisons with Wizard).

I actually agree.

Hence why I specifically didn't say that the Dragon ability was garbage or that the Divine Soul had the best 1st level abilities of any Sorcerer origin. :smalltongue:

But yeah, I think that effectively getting free permanent Mage Armour plus extra hit point is a great ability.

Incidentally, it was also the Origin I had in mind when I said that I could easily see people wanting a subclass that emphasised a Sorcerer's strengths rather than getting a more diverse spell list. Though in that regard I was also thinking of the Dragon's Lv6 ability, as extra damage for spells and cantrips is always welcome.

[Ritorix]

I'd really like to see some sample spell lists of pure divine sorcerers at each tier.

Just as an example of what y'all think is best.

Then we can compare it to another sorcerers list and see how they match up.

There's a pure build in my signature. But it can't really be compared to a normal sorcerer, the goals and spells are so different. There's a few things both can do and some metamagic tricks with divine spells that only a dsorc can do. Like extend Mage Armor/Aid/Death Ward timed at long rest completion to get 16-hour buffs without resource loss.

Pure dsorcs have to be very picky with spells. The low AC is a problem, so they gain a free spell but need to spend one on Mage Armor anyway and come out even. Gotta think about how that concentration will be used, the less spell preps spent on conc spells the better. Spell choices have to mesh well with metamagic choices. Gotta plan out how combat rounds are going to be spent, etc. These are all normal sorcerer concerns but the dsorc has more spells to decide between.

If you multiclass some real diversity starts to unlock. A dip in cleric goes a long way for armor and spell access. Warlock works too but is a tradeoff of higher-level spell access for pact magic slots.

Here's a quick hexblade/divine build based on buffing allies and cursing enemies, to show what they can do. Dipping warlock loses quick access to power combos like Twin Haste/Polymorph, but makes the character more well-rounded with solid defense, a solid attack, and more low-level slot access for cheap Twin spells. The dsorc lets them do things a hexblade/cleric or celestial warlock can't do:



v. human with 14dex/16 con/16cha
v.human feat: inspiring leader
level progression: 1 sorc (for Con saves) -> 1 hexblade warlock -> 3 sorc -> 2 warlock -> 18 sorc
half plate+shield+longsword (hex weapon) for AC19
key metamagic: twin

Character level 8 spell snapshot:
primary divine sorc spells (at sorc level 6): bane (free spell), absorb elements, healing word, aid, blindness, spiritual weapon, slow, haste
primary warlock spells (at warlock 2): protection vs evil, shield, hex
Invocations: agonizing blast, devil sight

It stands in melee or nearby, with strategies like this:

Pre-fight: Extend Aid at highest level, Inspiring Leader

Boss fight?
round 1) twin Haste
round 2) hexblade curse+Eldritch Blast
round 3+) Spiritual Weapon+EB or (twin) Healing Word 0HP allies+EB

Normal fight, multiple enemies?
round 1) Slow or Bane
round 2+) if Bane was cast, twin Blindness on Bane save failures, kill the rest first

Special cases:
specific enemy types: twin Prot vs Evil
0HP allies: (twin) Healing Word
reactions: Shield/Absorb Elements as needed

Other:
Always refresh Inspiring Leader at rests.
Use sorc spell slots before pact slots. Convert warlock slots to sorcerer points during short rests. Should be able to do this at least for the first short rest.

[ImproperJustice]

A little off topic, but I woukd be really curious to see how a Cleric / Wizard Multiclass stacks up to a single class Divine Soul.

Yes, your spell advancement slows down, but upper level spells tend to be kinda underwhelming half the time, vs say an Crazy upcast Spirit Guardians, Storm Sphere, Flaming Sphere or Spiritual Weapon.

Just for funsies, I may give it a shot some time.

[KorvinStarmast]

Arcana Cleric 1 Wizard X?
Something like that?