[3.5] Build Challenge - Human Expert 9

[Thurbane]

So, say you had to play a Human Expert 9 as an adventurer. He's the 5th member of a party, where the other 4 are Tier 3 types.

He's obviously going to be severely gimped compared to his Tier 3 PC class comrades, but...how would you play this character to it's best potential, given the following restrictions:

Race and class are fixed
72 point buy for ability scores
Standard PC WBL for ECL 9 (36,000gp)
No templates
No Flaws or Traits
No gestalt or other alternate rule systems (including Item Familiar)
No backstory powers like his uncle is a Wizard that grants him unlimited wishes etc.
No infinite loops/infinite WBL abuse etc.
No Leadership, cohorts, trained animals/beasts or other minionmancy
No Diplomancy - assume Diplomacy uses nerfed rules
I thought "Race and class are fixed" pretty much covered it, but obviously no PAO into something else


I'm sure there's stuff I haven't covered off, but try not to go too cheesy.

In short, how would you optimize this not-great character using skills (you get to pick ANY 10 as class skills), feats and standard WBL?

Cheers - T

[daremetoidareyo]

The solipsist:
Dragon prophet feats from eberron, Dreamtelling, and lucid dreaming. Alter the dream terrain with lucid dreaming for a type of flight, where your swim score allows you to move in 3 dimensions and shoot crossbows. Then, after the fight, make k planes checks for free auguries.

....
Rod the absorber
1:Hidden talent: synchronicity and spellfire wielder
3 linked power
9: azure talent
6: a feat that gives you an SLA that can target yourself with

Just prep synchronicities to absorb spells, preload it with your slas. Use it to pew pew

...

Other things
Exotic weapon proficiency (heavy caber)
Ancestral relic: platinum caber of returning?

Exotic weapon pro: fukimi bari, deadly spittle: spit mouth darts in a 15' cone, shape soulmeld dissolving spittle? Knowledge devotion,

Plot enhancer: track, urban tracking, research, favored in house, apprentice/mentor

Water devotion x2, planar touchstone (keyed to a site on elemental plane of water), stalwart planar ally

[Doctor Despair]

Should we also rule out Diplomacers? Because otherwise it's going to be stupidly easy to take Bind Vestige / Practiced Binder (rushed checks at no penalty, can take 10) and all the diplomacy synergies (+6), along with max ranks (+12, cumulative 28) and max charisma (+4, cumulative 32). I don't think binding is inherently evil, so we can add Sacred Vow (+2, cumulative 34)/Vow of Poverty (+2 to charisma, so effective +1, cumulative 35), and get a bunch of exalted feats on top of that, like Nymph's Kiss. Take Speak Language as a class skill, and learn all the languages with your 10,000 skillpoints. Automatically make any hostile creatures (that have a language) friendly. Try to get Speak with Plants/Animals/etc as SLAs somehow.

Edit: Instead of the Speak with line, I suppose you could go Vow of Nonviolence / Vow of Peace. You get one more exalted feat, too, so... Nymph's Kiss unless someone has a better option. Another +6 to diplomacy, cumulative 41, and an aura to calm enemies without a language that come near you. Maybe there's some sort of buffs you could get someone to put on you to get that last +9 to make any creature helpful.

[daremetoidareyo]

Should we also rule out Diplomacers? Because otherwise it's going to be stupidly easy to take Bind Vestige / Practiced Binder (rushed checks at no penalty, can take 10) and all the diplomacy synergies (+6), along with max ranks (+12, cumulative 28) and max charisma (+4, cumulative 32). I don't think binding is inherently evil, so we can add Sacred Vow (+2, cumulative 34)/Vow of Poverty (+2 to charisma, so effective +1, cumulative 35), and get a bunch of exalted feats on top of that, like Nymph's Kiss. Take Speak Language as a class skill, and learn all the languages with your 10,000 skillpoints.

Cards over swords!

[Thurbane]

Hmm, OK then, maybe assume Diplomancy is banned too, since it's pretty easy to cheese out and auto-win most encounters.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First things first, go ahead and edit the OP to also ban Item Familiar (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm).

You're proficient in simple weapons and light armor, but not shields. A darkwood heavy shield has zero armor check penalty so there's no drawback to using it without proficiency. Mithral breastplate is considered light and has a max dex bonus of five.

Focus on Dex and Cha first, then Con > Int > Str > Wis.


UMD is an obvious choice, be sure to max that out. If Item Familiar is fine, this is one of the skills you'll boost with your invested skill ranks.

An Eternal Wand is usable 2/day, one with a 1st level spell is just 820 gp, a 2nd level spell is only 4.4k gp, and a 3rd level spell is 10.9k. The printed caster level is always the minimum for a Wizard to cast a spell of that level, but that's just for when they're found as loot, RAW the caster level is determined by the creator (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#casterLevel). Also RAW their market price is set in stone, it won't vary if they're created at a higher caster level, but it's only reliable if you craft them yourself.

"If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item."

You just need to have a caster level (CM has Fey Heritage + Fey Power, or Fiendish Heritage + Fiendish Power) and to be the one paying the xp cost to create the item, all other prerequisites can be met by other characters. At ECL 9 you have at least 36,000 xp, the Item Familiar gives you a 10% bonus so that's 3.6k xp you can spend to make items, which is 90k gp worth of items. So if you craft 100% of your gear, you won't use up that 3.6k xp buffer and you'll still be 9th level.

It takes 1 day to make a 1st level eternal wand, 5 days for 2nd level, and 11 days for 9th level. It would require hiring at least one NPC spellcaster who has the relevant item creation feat to work with you 8 hours per day for that many days, plus spellcasting fees (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell) to expend the spells the item requires on each of those days. The person casting the spells must also be present for the full crafting time as they're meeting that prerequisite and thus cooperating to help craft it. I don't think there's a daily rate for spellcasters, so let's just say that you spend no more than 1,800 xp crafting your own items, and an equal amount of xp helping that NPC to craft items for himself as payment, plus NPC spellcasting fees. This means you can say you crafted your own Eternal Wands and they're all at a caster level of 9th.

I'd get Web, Silence, Ray of Stupidity, and Command Undead for sure, the best 3rd level spells are probably Glibness and Hound of Doom. I wouldn't consider items that summon creatures with limited durations and limited daily uses to qualify as minionmancy, due to the nonpermanent nature of the minions and prohibitive cost. Command Undead is more to turn the strongest opponent against its allies than to have a minion, even if it survives you wouldn't want to keep it. Considering they'll be caster level 9th, I'm sure there are plenty of interesting level-dependent spells you can pick for these.

Don't forget about normal wands and even highly situational scrolls. A partially charged wand costs 1/50th the normal price multiplied by the number of charges remaining.


Intimidate is another fantastic choice, considering how well fear effects stack in 3.5 edition. Put the Fearsome property on your armor (DotU version, it's more recent than MIC) so you can demoralize as a move-action, take Imperious Command and get the Never Outnumbered skill trick. Also take Dreadful Wrath in PGtF to get a fear aura, and maybe even get an Eternal Wand of Fell Frighten Magic Missile or similar.


You'll want 5 ranks in synergy skills like Bluff, Balance, Jump, and Tumble. Max out Bluff though, the Eternal Wand of Glibness will make you amazing at that. Slight of Hand is also highly recommended.


So that means your five feats are Dreadful Wrath, Fey or Fiendish Heritage + Power, Imperious Command, and let's go with Quick Draw.


So you'll be trying to use Intimidate every round, and one of intimidating again, poking with a simple one-handed weapon, or activating a wand or eternal wand. Ray of Stupidity automatically disables animals and many low-Int opponents. Ready an action to use an Eternal Wand of Silence targeting a point in space near an enemy caster if they use a spell with a verbal component, it automatically prevents them from completing the verbal component causing the spell to fail but still be lost as though cast. You can wear a (spiked) gauntlet to threaten adjacent squares and use thrown weapons to make weak Dex-based attacks. Make that spiked gauntlet +1 Sudden Stunning so it can actually do something when it hits.


If custom items are available, a really cool custom weapon for a non-damage-dealing character would be something that has a use-activated (on hit) spell effect like Blindness/Deafness or Hold Person or similar. It's too expensive for this character, but I'm a fan of having an icicle (psionic crystal dagger or shortsword) with +1 Frost and use-activated (on hit) casts Flesh to Ice from Frostburn on the target. Use it for normal attacks or you can make touch attacks with it to only deliver whatever spell effect it contains.

[Endarire]

He buys two castings of polymorph any object to transform him permanently (not instantaneously) into something better, like a Sarrukh.

[Thurbane]

He buys two castings of polymorph any object to transform him permanently (not instantaneously) into something better, like a Sarrukh.

Yeah, not in the spirit of the challenge, at all.

[Anthrowhale]

This depends a great deal on the other party members, but something like the below might be complementary.

Iajutsu Focus, Knowledge[Dungeoneering, The Planes, Religion, Local, Nature, Arcana], Craft[Armorsmithing], Sleight of Hand, Tumbling

Take the Skill tricks Collector of Stories, Acrobatic Backstab, Sudden Draw

Take the feats Knowledge Devotion, Quickdraw, Improved Initiative, Artisan Craftsman[Armorsmithing] (Dragon #358), Combat Expertise, Improved Combat Expertise, Allied Defense

Have abilities Str 15/Dex 18/Con 16/Int 18+/Wis 18/Cha 14

The role of the character is 'expert': you have a huge range of knowledge which can be used for knowledge checks against all foes.

In combat, you can win initiative and use Iajutsu Focus in the surprise round. After that, you can iajutsu focus via skill tricks or other means offensively, or you can shift to applying Allied Defense to give allies a +15 dodge bonus to AC.

Out of combat, you create extra nice armor for party. (Swap with Weaponsmithing or Bowmaking if that is more desirable.)

[Soranar]

Well I considered making a dagger thrower or the like with iaijutsu focus and knowledge devotion but the damage is still pretty bad when you compare it to an ubercharger so...

power attack, improved bull rush, power lunge, leap attack, shock trooper

STATS:

STR 18 (main stat, gets every increase so 20 by level 9)
DEX 16 (enough to max out armor AC with the right magic item)
CON 18
INT 16
WIS 16
CHA 16

Equipment: you use a mithral breastplate and a longspear with an animated heavy darkwood shield (no armor check penalty so even without proficiencies it doesn't matter)

power lunge is only an issue if your opponent can reach you , since you use a reach weapon that shouldn't happen most of the time

damage: 1d8 (longspear) + 2x STR (power lunge) + power attack (6 base BAB x2 from 2 handed x 2 from leap attack) 24 damage
4.5 + 14 (20 base + 4 magic item x2 power lunge) + 24= 38.5 damage per charge on average

Skills

jump (for leap attack)
balance, spot , listen, sense motive (to not be a chump)
tumble (movement is always useful)
use magic item , use psionic item (expansion + enlarge person is fun)

diplomacy, bluff (always a useful social backup)

why no knowledge devotion, iaijustu focus, open lock, sleight of hand, hide and move silently, search, disable device

basically all of the above skills are ok on a heavily indirect character which this build is not: you see an enemy, you charge it, you kill it, you move on

Since you banned anything useful (minionmancy and the like) this is the best I could come up with

[Demidos]

I think making a combat build human expert without resorting to the usual ubercharging/umd/etc is gonna be tough.

However, if your party members are willing to have a less direct combat style --


Take iajitsu focus, disguise, forgery, sleight of hand, intimidate and bluff. Sleight of hand gives you the option to steal all of an opponents items as free actions, while forgery disguise and bluff allows you to impersonate others. When in the appropriate position to strike, iajitsu focus with gnomish quickrazors gives you enough damage to coup de grace or sneak attack enemies. Intimidate locking can be a valid and hard to avoid strategy in combat, when used with a Fearsome Breastplate or something similar.

Throw in a few feats like hardened criminal, martial study to get sneak attack, and Craven, and you can be throwing around enough damage to be respectable in a scrap even if you are discovered. If you can fit listen, Keen eared scout gives you a good way to detect enemies and also gives you a full readout on what they happen to be carrying, great for a thief. Fell conspiracy can be combined too to give astronomical bonuses to listen and spot. Nymph's Kiss can give you extra skill points if you still don't have enough. Check out the skill tricks for never outnumbered and to stand up when knocked prone without provoking, plus other useful boosts.

Optimize your items with Shadow cloaks, anklets of translocation, Talisman of the Disk, Hand of the Mage, and other similar effects to create confusion about your abilities, provide concealment, and escape sticky situations. Fearsome breastplate gives you a way to lock down enemies. If you went for a charisma version of the build, consider sudden stunning on your weapons, a steal at a flat +2,000 gp.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
You can ignore this section if you never plan to go past 9th, but if you do --

If you can skip out of human Expert after 9th, getting a level in marshal could be a big boost at 10th, depending on what your ability scores look like. Other useful levels could be a martial initiator, warlock, or dragonfire adept. Vecna blooded, becoming a vampire or Dark template complement your abilities if you can gain them later on, though the build functions perfectly fine without them.

[Endarire]

@OP: I don't understand the purpose of playing this purposely-gimped/purposely-weak party member, even in a group of tier 3s and 4s, especially by blocking ways to easily become better. Explain.

[Doctor Despair]

@OP: I don't understand the purpose of playing this purposely-gimped/purposely-weak party member, even in a group of tier 3s and 4s, especially by blocking ways to easily become better. Explain.

So far as the OP seems to indicate, this seems like a thought experiment so far. I don't know that you need to personally want to play, or play with, such a character to accept the premise that someone might enjoy it, or to conceptualize that building the most effective character using limited resources can feel more rewarding than building the most effective character using unlimited resources. After all, some people choose not to play the best class in the best way, but the sub-optimal classes in the best way, or the sub-optimal strategy in the best way.

[Thurbane]

So far as the OP seems to indicate, this seems like a thought experiment so far. I don't know that you need to personally want to play, or play with, such a character to accept the premise that someone might enjoy it, or to conceptualize that building the most effective character using limited resources can feel more rewarding than building the most effective character using unlimited resources. After all, some people choose not to play the best class in the best way, but the sub-optimal classes in the best way, or the sub-optimal strategy in the best way.

^^ Well said. And exactly right.

Also, another resource to throw into the mix: the rituals from Lords of Darkness (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=21058754&postcount=12). Any character can take them, if they can pay the costs.

Excellent work to most of the replies too; they have given me some good ideas.