Alternate Schools for an Eldritch Knight - are Illusion and Conjuration too broken?

[cutlery]

Short version: I want a Gish, and I don't want a Paladin/Sorcerer, I've already got a Bladesinger and a Shillelagh/GFB warlock in other games.

Looking through the spell list for the Eldritch Knight for a build I'm working on (planning on strength over dex, and a decent int for skills; the party will have as many as 3 or 4 people with high Cha already). I know a dex build is easier, but str works better for the concept.

After the basic Abjuration stuff (Absorb Elements, Shield, Counterspell, Dispell) and a token Evocation spell or two (Fire Shield; SCAG cantrips which aren't restricted) nearly *everything* I'd want is Illusion or Conjuration, with a dash of Transmutation:

Blur
Blink
Misty Step (Can be acquired with the Fey Touched feat)
Mirror Image
Invis/G. Invis
Shadow Blade
Dimension door
Levitate (trans)
Vampiric Touch (ok, Necro, but cool!)
Phantasmal Killer (might be too awesome with Eldritch Strike)
(Fly and Haste, but these aren't as high on the list).

How broken would such a spell list be in the hands of an Eldritch Knight? Of course, I can always MC into wizard after Ek 7 and get these things, and catch up with 3rd level spells by 12 (one lever sooner than a pure EK), and even move along to some 5th level spells that way (Walls, Steel Wind Strike, Far Step - there are other spells there, to be sure, but these most fit the concept I think).

So, those spells are all available as an Ek/Abj multiclassed character. How busted would a pure Eldritch Knight be with them? Whenever I try to look at the RAW EK, I run out of free slots really fast.

Would this concept simply be better off as a 5Champ/5Wizard? If so, that sort of sucks.

[tKUUNK]

pure EK, even without the spell school restrictions, is still limited by # of spells known, # of spell slots, and the progression of a 1/3 caster.

By imposing school restricions, I see the developers going for thematic appeal (and some might say, failing). It doesn't add much mechanical balance to the class, since EK casting is limited in those other ways.

So yeah, knock yourself out. I'd allow this in my games. Probably same goes for arcane tricksters.

[Tanarii]

Very broken.

And that should instantly jump out at you as the case, since as you say a bunch of things you're interested in are in those schools. Especially Illusion.

[stoutstien]

Very broken.

And that should instantly jump out at you as the case, since as you say a bunch of things you're interested in are in those schools. Especially Illusion.

I don't think it's that bad. They are losing the really good first level spells from Abjuration until lv 8. If anything I see this as a downgrade.

[Unoriginal]

I'd support replacing a school with another entirely. Not picking whichever spells you want.

[cutlery]

I don't think it's that bad. They are losing the really good first level spells from Abjuration until lv 8. If anything I see this as a downgrade.

Right; could only pick up shield (the free spell at 3) until 8th, and might not have room for Counter/dispell at all.

A 5 level wizard dip of course gives it all (even the base wizard known spells are a huge change); and a 7/13 ek/wiz MC has every spell one wants.

As folks have talked about ad nauseam in other threads, Evocation is mostly a waste on the Ek; Conjuration and Transmutation are pretty cool but Illusion is the one that I could see one taking most issue with.


For comparison sake, a level 5 Bladesinger can get mirror image, shadow blade, and blink rolling all in the same combat, along with blade song.

A level 13 Ek could do that too, if they had access to illusion (And assume Fey Touched or similar to get Misty Step). None of these are big damage boosts (well Shadow Blade a bit) as much as they are survivability boosts.

A 7Ek/5Abjurer can do the same thing, and is still pumping GFB+one attack with War magic (at the point where GFB or BB is adding 2d8 to the main attack).


I'd support replacing a school with another entirely. Not picking whichever spells you want.

Which seems fair enough to me; and I know others have talked about it, but I've only rarely seen people talk about Illusion and/or Conjuration with respect to the Ek.

[Tanarii]

As folks have talked about ad nauseam in other threads, Evocation is mostly a waste on the Ek;
Folks are wildly wrong. AoEs and ranged magical attacks are very useful on an EK.



Which seems fair enough to me; and I know others have talked about it, but I've only rarely seen people talk about Illusion and/or Conjuration with respect to the Ek.
Usually people want Illusion and Transmutation.

[cutlery]

Folks are wildly wrong. AoEs and ranged magical attacks are very useful on an EK.


Which spells? Shatter at 7th or Fireball/LB at 13th don't seem very useful at all for a pure Ek; given their limited spell slots. Fire shield looks neat, but perhaps not at level 19.

Minute Meteors sounds cool, but not if you're using War Magic.

[Tanarii]

Which spells?
Thunderwave
Chromatic Orb
Magic Missiles
Darkness
Gust
Scorching Ray
Shatter

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Thunderwave
Chromatic Orb
Magic Missiles
Darkness
Gust
Scorching Ray
Shatter

Those don't seem that useful even with a wizard at 3rd (with an Int so they actually stick). On an Ek with limited Int and war magic or extra attack (both available when 2nd level spells are) - I'd save the slots (only two 2nd level slots available) for Misty Step and shield. By 7th level plus, shouldn't enemies be largely ready for AoE tactics?

I don't think playing an EK as an armored Evoker makes much sense, given how few slots they get and how slowly they gain higher level spells. Note that at that level pure casters are dropping 4th level spells and martial (which the EK is) are attacking twice.

Once in a blue moon magic missile might be handy, but as a regular attack to use? I'd just swing twice (once as a BB/GFB) and fish for a crit.

[Tanarii]

Youre not an armored evoker. You're an armored single target melee attacker that has additional limited daily capabilites to do something effective at long range or to multiple targets when the situation arises. And unless you're consistently fighting in narrow tunnels thats useful to many Fighters.

Not that consistently being in narrow tunnels is completely unlikely in a game with lots of dungeons. But still.

[cutlery]

Youre not an armored evoker. You're an armored single target melee attacker that has additional limited daily capabilites to do something effective at long range or to multiple targets when the situation arises. And unless you're consistently fighting in narrow tunnels thats useful to many Fighters.

Not that consistently being in narrow tunnels is completely unlikely in a game with lots of dungeons. But still.

None of those spells have particularly fantastic range, and a bow could work just as well, though. Not fantastic damage, but then neither is Shatter at 7th level. Given a second level spell slot to work with, I'd much rather move and then misty step to use the attack action, or possibly move, misty step and use booming blade to lock a target down (rider + opportunity, should they try to escape). With the Fey Touched AU feat, that may even be as many as three uses of Misty Step per day at 7th. A small room full of Kobolds? Shatter. But how often does that happen around 7th, and would't a round of no-resource-use melee or GFB+warcaster melee work just as well?

Later on this would be coupled with Mage Slayer, too.

Area Effect spells just seem like a waste of slots for an EK unless you're in a game where stats are easy enough to come by that you have a +4 or +5 casting stat and your adventuring day is one combat long. Using a round to purely cast a one-action spell is also one of the least gishy things one could do - magic or melee isn't very satisfying - especially not when the wizard in the group can drop Black Tentacles or an upcasted fireball that same round. Using magic to boost melee (in this case, by teleporting right next to something squishy and smacking it a lot), on the other hand, seems exactly why someone would consider an EK a worthy opponent.

Anyway, whether or not someone else can come up with a good use for the evocation spells on an EK, I don't think they're worth learning, and would rather use those slots on things like Misty Step, Mirror Image, and (later) Blink.

[MaxWilson]

Just want to note here that you can duplicate the effects of Blur via Darkness (evocation) + Alert feat.

The fact that people want Illusion for Shadow Blade is in many ways an accident of spell design. If you import the Blade Song spell (evocation) from Frog God's Book of Lost Spells (AD&D - 3rd edition spells rewritten into 5E), it winds up being worse than Shadow Blade in some ways (3rd level, less damage, no scaling, no advantage in dim light, no finesse), better in others (the +2d6 thunder damage adds to your weapon damage instead of replacing it), and is not an outrageously powerful spell. What I'm saying is that both spells fit in a 5E game, and it wouldn't be broken to let an Eldritch Knight find a Lost Spell of Bladesong somewhere in treasure--so it arguably wouldn't be broken to let an Eldritch Knight have some sort of native access to Shadow Blade either if he gave up Absorb Elements and Counterspell and had to spend a free pick on Shield.

Bear in mind that only 2/3 of an EK's spells have to come from Abj/Evoc anyway, so it's not like they're not already cherry-picking the best schools from other schools already. All you're doing by letting them switch schools is letting them pick up more of the second- and third-best spells from another school, at the cost of losing the second- and third-best evoc/abj spells.

TL;DR as a DM I'd allow a vote on it, and if the majority of players wanted this change then I'd be fine with it. It's extra complexity but it's not broken per se.


Which spells? Shatter at 7th or Fireball/LB at 13th don't seem very useful at all for a pure Ek; given their limited spell slots. Fire shield looks neat, but perhaps not at level 19.

Blasting spells in 5E are a bad choice except in emergencies, but they're pretty good in emergencies due to not needing concentration.

13th level EKs can cast Fireball + Action Surged Fireball for 16d6 (56) damage, which is damage on par with Fireball XI (if you had 11th level spell slots in the first place) or Delayed Blast Fireball with four rounds of concentration. As no-concentration blasting spells go, it's pretty decent, and it's enough damage be relevant against Tier 3-4 mobs, which are sometimes deadlier than CR 13+ monsters. For example, you could turn a Deadly x 1.75 encounter with a Githyanki Kith'rak and 8 Githyanki Warriors (572 HP doing 134.42 DPR against AC 19 on average) into a barely-Deadly encounter with a Githyanki Kith'rak and 3 Githyanki Warriors (two of them half-dead) with only 271 HP and 79.42 DPR against AC 19, and you can do this without needing your wizard to take their concentration off the Kith'rak that they have encased in a Wall of Force (or whatever). The bigger and harder the encounter, the more likely a capability like this is to be relevant, especially since it matters most when the party's concentration is all busy with other things, which happens most in extremely tough encounters.

I'm not suggesting BTW that your 13th level EK is just waiting for an opportunity to unleash a double-Fireball as soon as he can. That's fire insurance, it's better if you don't have to use it, but if you need it you're glad to have it.

[cutlery]

Just want to note here that you can duplicate the effects of Blur via Darkness (evocation) + Alert feat.


I should say that it's a pretty melee-heavy group, so I don't want to wreck things for others with this combo. No one seems to be looking to dip into warlock, either, nor are they looking for the devil's sight invocation via a feat to my knowledge. Mostly newer players, so I'd prefer not to dump a 15' sphere of darkness in the middle of combat.





The fact that people want Illusion for Shadow Blade is in many ways an accident of spell design. If you import the Blade Song spell (evocation) from Frog God's Book of Lost Spells (AD&D - 3rd edition spells rewritten into 5E), it winds up being worse than Shadow Blade in some ways (3rd level, less damage, no scaling, no advantage in dim light, no finesse), better in others (the +2d6 thunder damage adds to your weapon damage instead of replacing it), and is not an outrageously powerful spell. What I'm saying is that both spells fit in a 5E game, and it wouldn't be broken to let an Eldritch Knight find a Lost Spell of Bladesong somewhere in treasure--so it arguably wouldn't be broken to let an Eldritch Knight have some sort of native access to Shadow Blade either if he gave up Absorb Elements and Counterspell and had to spend a free pick on Shield.

Bear in mind that only 2/3 of an EK's spells have to come from Abj/Evoc anyway, so it's not like they're not already cherry-picking the best schools from other schools already. All you're doing by letting them switch schools is letting them pick up more of the second- and third-best spells from another school, at the cost of losing the second- and third-best evoc/abj spells.

TL;DR as a DM I'd allow a vote on it, and if the majority of players wanted this change then I'd be fine with it. It's extra complexity but it's not broken per se.

This was more or less my read - the spells you'd want (well, that I'd want) are spread across four schools (Illusion, Transmutation, Conjuration, Abjuration), so two schools will be left out and I'd be forced to pick and choose with the free spells either way.

Or dip into Wizard after Ek7, of course, making most of this moot. But I'd like to try to make pure EK work.

I'm not sure a pure EK really has the slots to be wasting on Shadow Blade, either, depending on how long the adventuring day is.

[MaxWilson]

I'm not sure a pure EK really has the slots to be wasting on Shadow Blade, either, depending on how long the adventuring day is.

I concur, on a pure EK. I see Shadow Blade as sort of a backup strategy for a Sharpshooter to let him be an off-tank in melee occasionally in close terrain, rather than a primary strategy. (And I would usually take Magic Weapon over Shadow Blade anyway especially if I had Crossbow Expert.)

But I'm biased towards at-will-ish spells and power, which I admit is an emotional preference (I tend to hoard resources, and I hate even the prospect of "running out"). In terms of the adventures a typical DM is likely to actually design and run, judicious use of Shadow Blade is probably better than I give it credit for.

[Kane0]

I dont see a problem with EK/AT swapping spell schools around

[cutlery]

But I'm biased towards at-will-ish spells and power, which I admit is an emotional preference (I tend to hoard resources, and I hate even the prospect of "running out"). In terms of the adventures a typical DM is likely to actually design and run, judicious use of Shadow Blade is probably better than I give it credit for.

I really like Shadow Blade on a bladesinger, but you have so many more slots to work with there.

For a full EK you really only have one neat trick 2-3 times a day for most of your career - A bit more often if you pick Eladrin as your race (Fey Step on short rest, which is pretty huge).

[MaxWilson]

I really like Shadow Blade on a bladesinger, but you have so many more slots to work with there.

For a full EK you really only have one neat trick 2-3 times a day for most of your career - A bit more often if you pick Eladrin as your race (Fey Step on short rest, which is pretty huge).

Yep, but in practice 2-3 times a day is probably more than I emotionally give it credit for. It probably covers all the climaxes in an adventure, so as long as you have other neat tricks as well (like grappling, DMG Disarm, stealth, caltrops, Sharpshooter damage, and being available to be turned into a T Rex by the party bard) you would probably be fine, or at least better off than my emotions tell me you would be, since my emotions are oriented around worst-case scenarios where you have to fight your way through multiple hour-ling deadly combats, solo, after everyone else has become a casualty, while simultaneously having to negotiate your way through multiple scenarios where combat and stealth are forbidden, and sneak your way through scenarios where combat and negotiation are nonviable.

Those things don't happen in real games, it's just my roleplaying instincts shouting at me that "life isn't fair and owes you nothing," even though in D&D the DM typically _does_ try to be fair.

[cutlery]

Yep, but in practice 2-3 times a day is probably more than I emotionally give it credit for. It probably covers all the climaxes in an adventure, so as long as you have other neat tricks as well (like grappling, DMG Disarm, stealth, caltrops, Sharpshooter damage, and being available to be turned into a T Rex by the party bard) you would probably be fine, or at least better off than my emotions tell me you would be, since my emotions are oriented around worst-case scenarios where you have to fight your way through multiple hour-ling deadly combats, solo, after everyone else has become a casualty, while simultaneously having to negotiate your way through multiple scenarios where combat and stealth are forbidden, and sneak your way through scenarios where combat and negotiation are nonviable.

Those things don't happen in real games, it's just my roleplaying instincts shouting at me that "life isn't fair and owes you nothing," even though in D&D the DM typically _does_ try to be fair.

I think with combats like that, a warlock would be similarly out of luck.

I’m of the opinion that a good Gish should be crap at social and possibly even exploration things; they also ought not be able to out fight a fighter or out cast a wizard. As for exploration and social, 5e there are often enough skills to be passable at one of these, but then the intelligence skills get ignored all the time; like how athletics gets ignored for acrobatics, but worse. It’s almost like persuasion, perception, acrobatics, and stealth are the only skills in the game, at times.

[pragma]

I dont see a problem with EK/AT swapping spell schools around

I'd go further: I don't think EK/AT need restricted schools at all. The small number of spells known / spell slots seems like restriction enough to me.

[MaxWilson]

It’s almost like persuasion, perception, acrobatics, and stealth are the only skills in the game, at times.

Huh. I see Athletics in play ten times as often as Acrobatics. Also Deception about as often as Persuasion, and Intimidation fairly often too even if sometimes it's just for sheer pleasure at the look on the other guy's face. (Think MiB, "Don't 'sir' me, young man, you have no idea who you're dealing with." Pure Intimidation right there and _so_ much fun as long as the NPC actually emotionally reacts. Any time you want to inflict a negative emotion on another person as a dramatic goal, there's a good chance Intimidation will be relevant, even if it doesn't get you directly to a procedural goal like "they drive off and let me interrogate Mikey the alien alone".)

[cutlery]

Huh. I see Athletics in play ten times as often as Acrobatics. Also Deception about as often as Persuasion, and Intimidation fairly often too even if sometimes it's just for sheer pleasure at the look on the other guy's face. (Think MiB, "Don't 'sir' me, young man, you have no idea who you're dealing with." Pure Intimidation right there and _so_ much fun as long as the NPC actually emotionally reacts. Any time you want to inflict a negative emotion on another person as a dramatic goal, there's a good chance Intimidation will be relevant, even if it doesn't get you directly to a procedural goal like "they drive off and let me interrogate Mikey the alien alone".)

Of course, you just discussed how great three charisma skills are ;)

Knowledge skills can be hard to work right, but investigation and insight shouldn’t be.

[MaxWilson]

Of course, you just discussed how great three charisma skills are ;)

Knowledge skills can be hard to work right, but investigation and insight shouldn’t be.

For me as DM, investigation comes into play for interpreting evidence without effort on the player's part (https://bluishcertainty.blogspot.com/2020/04/traps-in-dungeons-and-dragons-5e.html?m=1).

Insight is for gathering info about an NPC's mental or emotional state, and tends to work together with the other dramatic/social skills.

Medicine BTW is for autopsies of dead creatures to gather info about their stats and actions, although in some cases Arcana applies instead of Medicine.

[Kane0]

I'd go further: I don't think EK/AT need restricted schools at all. The small number of spells known / spell slots seems like restriction enough to me.

I agree, but i find the former an easier item to pass at the table

[5eNeedsDarksun]

It's a shame RAW doesn't include some alternate pairings for schools, as EKs basically end up looking like clones. That said, there are so few spells that scale well and are still good by the time a 1/3 caster gets them.
Shadow Blade came up in the thread, and unless it's a pretty low magic world, how much use are you going to get after 7th level? Sure it's better than a +1 sword, but if you've got a +2 you are trading a hit and damage bonus for just a damage bonus for a minute at the cost of a fairly precious 2nd level spell.
For me I'd like to see an EK that has the option of ditching the tanky spells like Shield and getting something like Hex or Hunter's Mark that remains relevant for the duration of the character.

[Zhorn]

I'd be cool with letting my EK players pick any two schools.
Personally I'm fine with playing them RAW, and even if given free choice I'd just default to Evo/Abj as the set schools, but I don't see a need to enforce that preference on others.

[Tanarii]

None of those spells have particularly fantastic range, and a bow could work just as well, though.Bows usually aren't an option for Dex dumpling HA melee fighters. A much better counter-point is that Firebolt than MM or CO pretty quickly. By 11th you'll be retraining those spells, possibly 5th if you're feeling the pinch for known spells.

But Thunderwave is still awesome for multi-target control. So are Gust and Darkness.

Don't forget that BB and GFB are SCaG splat. You can't assume all campaigns will allow them, and if you're playing in AL that's your +1. And most importantly, they still fall into the melee range only problem.

The entire point I'm making is the EK and particularly Evocation access is all about versatility. Not further specialization. That has its own kind of power, shoring up a weakness instead of empowering the already powerful aspects of a character.

Wanting to swap that out for a direct enhancement of specialization is natural for some folks, but on a solid chassis like the Fighter with a good subclass like the EK it's not the best idea. Especially if it's also allowing them to more easily dump Int by giving easy access to a wider variety of spells that don't need it.

[cutlery]

Bows usually aren't an option for Dex dumpling HA melee fighters. A much better counter-point is that Firebolt than MM or CO pretty quickly. By 11th you'll be retraining those spells, possibly 5th if you're feeling the pinch for known spells.

But Thunderwave is still awesome for multi-target control. So are Gust and Darkness.


If you've dumped dex you'd be using fire bolt a lot more than you'll be using magic missile or shatter - again, unless you have a fifteen minute adventuring day.

If you have as little as 12 dex, you'll get the same damage with a longbow. It's not hard to have a 14 dex and a 10 int in an EK if you're going for medium armor.

Thunderwave is lackluster on a wizard at level 1, I can't imagine how bad it would feel to use slots (and an *entire action*) on it at level 3 or later, or that you'd have the intellect to have reasonably challenging save DC with it. The wizard at least can get to a 14/15 DC pretty quickly.





Don't forget that BB and GFB are SCaG splat. You can't assume all campaigns will allow them, and if you're playing in AL that's your +1.

I can assume I won't be playing an EK without the SCAG cantrips; and the entire premise of the thread is moot in an AL game.



It's a shame RAW doesn't include some alternate pairings for schools, as EKs basically end up looking like clones. That said, there are so few spells that scale well and are still good by the time a 1/3 caster gets them.
Shadow Blade came up in the thread, and unless it's a pretty low magic world, how much use are you going to get after 7th level? Sure it's better than a +1 sword, but if you've got a +2 you are trading a hit and damage bonus for just a damage bonus for a minute at the cost of a fairly precious 2nd level spell.
For me I'd like to see an EK that has the option of ditching the tanky spells like Shield and getting something like Hex or Hunter's Mark that remains relevant for the duration of the character.

I agree, shadowblade is great for a Bladesinger, not as great for an EK (maybe a dex-build EK who can regularly take advantage of dim light and has eleven advantage). Shadowblade isn't that great compared to, say, a greatsword for a strength build Ek - and it costs a slot and concentration. I'd much rather use that slot on mirror image or blur, even though they are defensive.

The Fey Touched UA feat lets you get one enchantment or divination spell of your choice along with Misty Step, and that can be *either* hunters mark or Hex; I'd probably go for mark as it is only verbal, but using Hex on strength and then grappling sounds pretty cool. There is a lot in the 2020 feat list that are really useful for Eldritch Knights (all of which are available to me). Add in the Brawny feat and you'll have some pretty neat grapple shenanigans - grappling a Fire Giant (successfully!) sounds pretty awesome, but I sort of hope your friends are around to help finish it off.

[Fnissalot]

I'd support replacing a school with another entirely. Not picking whichever spells you want.

I agree. Evocation and transmutation have about 30 wizard spells between level 1-4. The rest of the schools have around 11-17. Limiting the large chunk of selection spells to be from 2 schools totaling about 45 spells feels just right for a one-third casters.

[SLOTHRPG95]

EK and AT are slowed enough by being 1/3 casters w/ spells known rather than memorized. Swapping one or both schools won't make them overpowered or broken. In fact, I have a player in my current campaign playing an EK with Conjuration and Transmutation instead of Abjur/Evoc, and it's working just fine.

[Edea]

I wouldn't allow both schools to be replaced. I'd let you replace the Abjuration school with any one other school, but not Evocation; that one would be fixed.

The reason for this is because of the War Magic feature. Most of what you'll be doing as an EK is mixing up your two cantrips with physicals; in other words, doing damage (I'm partial to Toll the Dead and Frostbite).

Well, since damage is already covered, Evocation is de-valued compared to the other schools for an EK. Trading that school in for a different one is, to me, a blatant versatility power-up.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I'm dropping into this thread with my own similar idea/conundrum. I feel like it would be fine to do an eldritch knight that uses the druid spell list rather than the wizard one and the schools divination and transmutation, or maybe divination and evocation, rather than evocation and abjuration. Am I correct in this?

Starting out it's a support package basically, with stuff like the ever useful guidance cantrip, healing spells like goodberry and some general out of combat stuff like detect magic, speak with animals and longstrider, although higher spell levels include things like spike growth and giant insect as well on the transmutation side (and things like flame blade and ice storm on the evocation alternative, which also includes most healing spells). The mechanical idea is that what this fighter loses in depth (more attack power/options in combat) it gains in width (more ways to be useful outside their area of expertise). The thematic idea is doing basically a "bachelor of applied druidology" (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?492961-How-do-you-justify-Rangers-having-spells/#14) idea, and honestly the fighter just has fewer features I don't see the point of or find hard to justify than the ranger does (and works better with the stats I'm working with), while much of the missing flavor can be brought in through background and skills.

[MaxWilson]

I'm dropping into this thread with my own similar idea/conundrum. I feel like it would be fine to do an eldritch knight that uses the druid spell list rather than the wizard one and the schools divination and transmutation, or maybe divination and evocation, rather than evocation and abjuration. Am I correct in this?

This is kind of like building an wizard-list-based ranger or a paladin-list-based Artificer. Any potential problems are more about the diegesis (narrative, fluff) and not with the power level per se.

In short, you're asking the wrong people. It's not MY suspension of disbelief that you're potentially challenging here, it's your fellow players'. FWIW I see no balance issues with druid divination + evocation, with druid transmutation is strong enough to potentially feel like a boost over EK (e.g. Spike Growth compares favorably with Fireball).

[heavyfuel]

I'd have no problems allowing alternate (not additional) schools. I'd probably ask for a theme, but would be pretty lax about the justification



A 5 level wizard dip of course gives it all

I think this is the most liberal definition of a dip I've heard hahahahaha

[Kane0]

Hexblade: necromancy and enchantment
Invisible blade: illusion and transmutation
Green star adept: divination and transmutation
Acolyte of the skin: conjuration and transmutation

Could do the same substituting the cleric/duid list with things like Hunter of the dead, knight of the chalice, etc

[SLOTHRPG95]

Hexblade: necromancy and enchantment
Invisible blade: illusion and transmutation
Green star adept: divination and transmutation
Acolyte of the skin: conjuration and transmutation

Could do the same substituting the cleric/duid list with things like Hunter of the dead, knight of the chalice, etc

I like the idea of different school combinations representing old PrCs! Hexblade could also include transmutation instead of necromancy or enchantment, since that was another of their specialties. My addition to the list would be Unseen Seer: an AT w/ Divination and Illusion.

[Fnissalot]

I'm dropping into this thread with my own similar idea/conundrum. I feel like it would be fine to do an eldritch knight that uses the druid spell list rather than the wizard one and the schools divination and transmutation, or maybe divination and evocation, rather than evocation and abjuration. Am I correct in this?

Starting out it's a support package basically, with stuff like the ever useful guidance cantrip, healing spells like goodberry and some general out of combat stuff like detect magic, speak with animals and longstrider, although higher spell levels include things like spike growth and giant insect as well on the transmutation side (and things like flame blade and ice storm on the evocation alternative, which also includes most healing spells). The mechanical idea is that what this fighter loses in depth (more attack power/options in combat) it gains in width (more ways to be useful outside their area of expertise). The thematic idea is doing basically a "bachelor of applied druidology" (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?492961-How-do-you-justify-Rangers-having-spells/#14) idea, and honestly the fighter just has fewer features I don't see the point of or find hard to justify than the ranger does (and works better with the stats I'm working with), while much of the missing flavor can be brought in through background and skills.

Druid Divination + Transmutation would end with 34 spells to choose from for the majority of slots but I might go with conjuration + transmutation instead to have 39 spells to choose from instead. Druid Divination + Evocation would leave you with only 23 spells to pick from so your options would start feeling limited? Wizard abjuration + evocation is 47 so you will have less options anyway. Otherwise, balancewise there is no issues with it I can see.



Hexblade: necromancy and enchantment
Invisible blade: illusion and transmutation
Green star adept: divination and transmutation
Acolyte of the skin: conjuration and transmutation

Could do the same substituting the cleric/duid list with things like Hunter of the dead, knight of the chalice, etc

ooh I like it! Nice!

Edit:
Looking further into this: Cleric Abjuration + Divination would give you 27 spells to pick from. Divination could be traded for either enchantment, evocation or necromancy and you would end up with 26 choices but neither of those three has any 4th level spells.

For bard, Enchantment + Illusion would be 35, or Enchantment + Divination at 33, or Enchantment + Transmutation at 32. Other options would start to fall behind. I like the Bard Enchantment + Divination for a seer/oracle type of fighter or rogue.

[cutlery]

I think this is the most liberal definition of a dip I've heard hahahahaha

Hey, it stops before the level 6 archetype feature!



Hexblade: necromancy and enchantment
Invisible blade: illusion and transmutation
Green star adept: divination and transmutation
Acolyte of the skin: conjuration and transmutation


One of these sounds pretty close; I'm thinking a focus on teleportation and simple illusion; of course for some weird reason the short teleports are split between conjuration and transmutation; misty step is solvable with a feat (and dimension door may either be free or unobtanium).

Illusion and Necromancy would make a nice Shadowknight, or would if wizard necromancy was a better set of choices.

Of course with only 13 spells known in the first place (and thus, only 9 restricted to schools) it feels like counting out pennies for beer here.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

This is kind of like building an wizard-list-based ranger or a paladin-list-based Artificer.
But somehow I feel better about doing it with the eldritch knight and the arcane trickster. They are relatively limited in magical power to begin with. They have a nice neutral chassis on which pretty much any magic can make sense, and by extension any casting stat as well. They have a nice and easy starting point for finding the right balance, taking a full caster's spell list and specializing in the most fitting two schools. And after all of that somehow their spells feel like a possibly more important part of their character than those of a ranger or a paladin, because they get some cantrips they can constantly mess around with if they feel like it. It's a very nice plug and play format with sooo many possibilities and relatively low risks of breaking the game, and that triggers my imagination.


Any potential problems are more about the diegesis (narrative, fluff) and not with the power level per se.

In short, you're asking the wrong people. It's not MY suspension of disbelief that you're potentially challenging here, it's your fellow players'. FWIW I see no balance issues with druid divination + evocation, with druid transmutation is strong enough to potentially feel like a boost over EK (e.g. Spike Growth compares favorably with Fireball).
But the fluff I can easily defend. :smallwink: So I take some extra care about thinking about the mechanical implications as well. Thanks for your insight into it. Spike Growth is indeed a good spell.


Druid Divination + Transmutation would end with 34 spells to choose from for the majority of slots but I might go with conjuration + transmutation instead to have 39 spells to choose from instead. Druid Divination + Evocation would leave you with only 23 spells to pick from so your options would start feeling limited? Wizard abjuration + evocation is 47 so you will have less options anyway. Otherwise, balancewise there is no issues with it I can see.

Edit:
Looking further into this: Cleric Abjuration + Divination would give you 27 spells to pick from. Divination could be traded for either enchantment, evocation or necromancy and you would end up with 26 choices but neither of those three has any 4th level spells.

For bard, Enchantment + Illusion would be 35, or Enchantment + Divination at 33, or Enchantment + Transmutation at 32. Other options would start to fall behind. I like the Bard Enchantment + Divination for a seer/oracle type of fighter or rogue.

This is an interesting way of looking at it. The difference in power is never going to be as big as the numbers suggest, since as a spontaneous caster most of the list is unavailable anyway, but it's a good yard stick. The number should probably not be bigger than on the original class, especially not if you're moving from the wizard list into something that gets healing spells, because those are just plain universally useful. By that measurement my current modified arcane trickster (bard list, enchantment and abjuration, casting stat charisma) went from 33 to 27 spells. And my gut feeling was that overal that reduced the power a bit, so that's a good match.

As for when it starts feeling limited: these classes ultimately learn 13 spells, of which 9 have to be from within the specialization while the other 4 use the full list. So something like 18 options within the specialized area is probably a good minimum, that still gives you one spell to reject for every one you take, provided that they have a decent distribution level wise.


Edit 4 days later: Thinking this through some more it feels like the biggest difference between the wizard and druid list is that the druid list has no equivalent of a cantrip like green-flame blade, which lets you do weapon damage and extra damage on top of it. The combination with the feature that gives an extra attack when casting a cantrip makes this scale (more or less) with the attack power of a regular fighter attack. Given that I will have nothing like that it seems a safe bet that my character will be if anything somewhat weaker then usual, it certainly seems like at least roughly as big a deal as a spell like spike growth. Thanks for the help, I figure I've got my answer.

Edit again: On the other hand, create bonfire seems like it could be a pretty good power boost in the right situation, particularly if you get polearm master as well, forcing creatures to move into an attack of opportunity or take continuing damage. Although it's probably not OP or anything compared to the regular damage a fighter does, and only seems situationally stronger than green flame blade. Definitely better than produce flame though...

[Trafalgar]

I have been playing a Half Orc EK on and off since 5e came out. His backstory is that he was raised by a Gnome Illusionist. For fluff reasons, I decided that he would take an Illusion spell whenever he was allowed. So at level 15 he has the following illusion spells:
Cantrips - Minor Illusion (my favorite utility cantrip)
1st Level - Disguise Self (useful for an imaginative player, especially if a half-orc), later replaced by Shadow Blade
2nd Level - Blur
3rd Level - Greater Invisibility

Not the most optimal build for an EK but I have had fun with it.

At level 20, 4 of your 13 spells are from any school. So I think it is really easy to a design a RAW, 3 school EK. Maybe 4 schools are too much for this, though.

[cutlery]

I have been playing a Half Orc EK on and off since 5e came out. His backstory is that he was raised by a Gnome Illusionist. For fluff reasons, I decided that he would take an Illusion spell whenever he was allowed. So at level 15 he has the following illusion spells:
Cantrips - Minor Illusion (my favorite utility cantrip)
1st Level - Disguise Self (useful for an imaginative player, especially if a half-orc), later replaced by Shadow Blade
2nd Level - Blur
3rd Level - Greater Invisibility

Not the most optimal build for an EK but I have had fun with it.

At level 20, 4 of your 13 spells are from any school. So I think it is really easy to a design a RAW, 3 school EK. Maybe 4 schools are too much for this, though.

I had a similar backstory in mind, only raised by eladrin and a proclivity for short range teleportation. The free school spells are enough to make this work, but a separate issue is that blaster evocation spells are mostly useless and there aren’t a ton of fitting abjuration spells, either.

[Trafalgar]

I had a similar backstory in mind, only raised by eladrin and a proclivity for short range teleportation. The free school spells are enough to make this work, but a separate issue is that blaster evocation spells are mostly useless and there aren’t a ton of fitting abjuration spells, either.

I would say that the problem with EK is that it requires high stats in too many attributes. And many Evocation Spells really require a high casting stat. It does seem that most spells are not designed with the EK in mind.

[MaxWilson]

I would say that the problem with EK is that it requires high stats in too many attributes. And many Evocation Spells really require a high casting stat. It does seem that most spells are not designed with the EK in mind.

EKs play just fine with Int 6-10. High Int stat not required, except for the same roleplaying reasons as any other PC.

[Tanarii]

I would say that the problem with EK is that it requires high stats in too many attributes. And many Evocation Spells really require a high casting stat. It does seem that most spells are not designed with the EK in mind.
Fighters get 7 ASIs. Thats enough to get a 20 and 2x18 for Str, Con, Int for any race with standard array. Some races can max at least 2, and with point buy all 3.

Or you can drop your Con/Int requirements to 16 and pick up two feats.

Or waste half your subclass, and dump int entirely.

Now starting array and what to prioritize as you level is a different matter. S15/C14/I13 Lightfoot Halfling who wants Ritual Caster Wizard and Spell Sniper as their first two feats might feel the pinch at level 6.

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Or waste half your subclass, and dump int entirely.


Even if you spend all your spell slots on misty step, shield, absorb elements, magic missile, blink, mirror image, and greater invisibility or far step you aren't wasting your subclass, and you don't need any int at all for those things.

Mirror image, Blink, G. Invis, and far step are a big deal, and are useful for far more turns than a lackluster 4th level evocation spell, no matter what your intelligence happens to be.

A DC 13 or 14 fireball at level 13 cast at level 3 is not a game changer like those other spells are. Plus, you could use a scroll for that, anyway. And cast something cooler (hah) like cone of cold.

[MrStabby]

I have allowed both choice of schools and choice of class spell list (from cleric, bard, druid, wizard) without there being any issues - using that class's casting stat.

It turns out that getting the same spells as the rest of the party had at a third of the level and getting many fewer of them doesn't really cause a lot of blanace issues.

The expected exceptions were where they might interact with other class features, like Shadow Blade with extra attack - even then, nothing is really a problem that the EK couldn't do anyway. No individual turn is problematic; even with two spells per turn with action surge. Yes there is some extra versatility from what another class's spells will bring but you give up a lot as well.

If you take cleric, you give up shield for example. Its actually a pretty significant loss. Given that I would rate fighters as being in the lower half of the power distribution in my games I don't tend to stress too much about giving them a small buff, if it is even that.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,


How busted would a pure Eldritch Knight be with them?

It wouldn't be busted at all. EKs and ATs get very few spells, and get them late.

Anyway,

Ken

[Man_Over_Game]

Hey, it stops before the level 67 archetype feature!

Which is a pretty crappy feature, if you ask me. It's basically only usable with Booming Blade, and is either powercreep (because, let's face it, that's what Booming Blade is when you're only attacking once), or it's completely useless. I'd actually would have rather have had it as a level 3 feature, since that would mean that you'd have a reason to use it for a few levels without Booming Blade.

Eh, the more I look at the EK, the more confused and frustrated I get. The only saving grace about the whole thing is Shield, which is probably my 2nd most hated spell in the game (not because I want to kill my players, it's for other reasons).

You could probably pull off something more powerful, consistent and affordable just being a Battlemaster with 3 levels into War Wizard.

[heavyfuel]

snip

I think you mixed up your quote. Wizards do get their archetype feature at 6th, not 7th level. Or were you thinking about EK?

[Sigreid]

My group has a house rule to allow any two schools. It's fine.

[Spiritchaser]

My group has a house rule to allow any two schools. It's fine.

I don’t see any issues with the power level of such an EK when measured against other classes, but how about measuring it against other fighters?

Possibly notwithstanding the echo knight, I consider Eldritch knights the most powerful option out there. What happens when a “pick any two” EK fights alongside a battlemaster or champion in the same party?

Wouldn’t the imbalance become more pronounced?

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Possibly notwithstanding the echo knight, I consider Eldritch knights the most powerful option out there. What happens when a “pick any two” EK fights alongside a battlemaster or champion in the same party?

Wouldn’t the imbalance become more pronounced?

Depends on the length of the adventuring day, doesn't it? at 11th level, an EK has: 3 attacks, war magic (as discussed above, meh), 4 level 1 slots, and 3 level 2 slots.

They have room for 2 school-free spells there; which can already be any two of misty step, blur, mirror image. They can shield or absorb elements four times per long rest. An eladrin can dispense with misty step as they can already fey step on short rests; so 3 slots on mirror image and/or blur.

I'd imagine a half-orc champion would be moderately strong by comparison - good crit synergy, room for both defensive and GWF styles

The battlemaster has four 1d10 superiority dice at 11; which recover on a short rest - do we even need to dig in to what they can do with them?


Given how few spell slots the EK has, what would one more 2nd level spell break that mirror image and blur already don't? Note that blur requires concentration.




Eh, the more I look at the EK, the more confused and frustrated I get. The only saving grace about the whole thing is Shield, which is probably my 2nd most hated spell in the game (not because I want to kill my players, it's for other reasons).

You could probably pull off something more powerful, consistent and affordable just being a Battlemaster with 3 levels into War Wizard.

I'm starting to wonder this myself. It seems like the biggest difference is the 4th attack at 20, and how many times do you get to use that?

Folks talk about how great the fighter base is, but the back half of the class really isn't all that great. An extra ASI, a second short rest use of action surge, a few more indomitable uses... these things don't compare well to 6th-9th level spells, paladin capstones, or many class/archetype level 14 features. Arcane surge is nice, but that should be a level 3 or level 7 ribbon.

Also, why no watered-down arcane recovery?

[Man_Over_Game]

I think you mixed up your quote. Wizards do get their archetype feature at 6th, not 7th level. Or were you thinking about EK?

Yeah, sorry, meant the EK.


The battlemaster has four 1d10 superiority dice at 11; which recover on a short rest - do we even need to dig in to what they can do with them?


Given how few spell slots the EK has, what would one more 2nd level spell break that mirror image and blur already don't? Note that blur requires concentration.



I'm starting to wonder this myself. It seems like the biggest difference is the 4th attack at 20, and how many times do you get to use that?

Folks talk about how great the fighter base is, but the back half of the class really isn't all that great. An extra ASI, a second short rest use of action surge, a few more indomitable uses... these things don't compare well to 6th-9th level spells, paladin capstones, or many class/archetype level 14 features. Arcane surge is nice, but that should be a level 3 or level 7 ribbon.

Also, why no watered-down arcane recovery?

The math shows each Superiority Die as being roughly the value of an extra attack. In terms of raw damage, from highest to lowest, it goes:

Arcane Archer > Battlemaster => Samurai > Cavalier > Champion > Purple Dragon Knight.

It's hard to determine where the EK fits in, just because there are a lot more plausible diversity with it than with other builds, but my estimate is somewhere around the Cavalier.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Yeah, sorry, meant the EK.



The math shows each Superiority Die as being roughly the value of an extra attack. In terms of raw damage, from highest to lowest, it goes:

Arcane Archer > Battlemaster => Samurai > Cavalier > Champion > Purple Dragon Knight.

It's hard to determine where the EK fits in, just because there are a lot more plausible diversity with it than with other builds, but my estimate is somewhere around the Cavalier.

I'm interested in how the Arcane Archer does more damage than the Battlemaster? I've just found a magic bow that increases damage on an Arcane shot for my MC Gloomstalker/ Fighter as I was increasing my fighter level from 2 to 3. Long story short, Precision Attack by itself can turn a miss into a hit, which for me is 1d8 + 1d6 (hunter's mark) + 10 (Sharpshooter) + 7 (dex and +2 bow) + maybe another 1d8 if it's my first shot on the first round. So basically 25-30 hp which can be done 4 times per short rest, compared to whatever Arcane Archer does 2 times per short rest.
As a result I opted for Battlemaster even with the bow that should have made the Archer better if they were comparable out of the box.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm interested in how the Arcane Archer does more damage than the Battlemaster? I've just found a magic bow that increases damage on an Arcane shot for my MC Gloomstalker/ Fighter as I was increasing my fighter level from 2 to 3. Long story short, Precision Attack by itself can turn a miss into a hit, which for me is 1d8 + 1d6 (hunter's mark) + 10 (Sharpshooter) + 7 (dex and +2 bow) + maybe another 1d8 if it's my first shot on the first round. So basically 25-30 hp which can be done 4 times per short rest, compared to whatever Arcane Archer does 2 times per short rest.
As a result I opted for Battlemaster even with the bow that should have made the Archer better if they were comparable out of the box.

Sorry got the Arcane Archer and the BM mixed up.

The numbers we ran with level 5 characters, 3 encounters, 3 rounds each, with a Short Rest between each Encounter, were:

Champion (+4.2), Samurai (+60), Arcane Archer (+69), Battlemaster (+54-96)

All attacks were considered using GWM or SS. The + value is how much extra damage your features gave you in that adventuring day compared to a generic Fighter with no subclass features. I estimated the Samurai's THP gave him roughly 1 extra round of attacks for the day, which at ~15 average damage after GWM and hit chance accounts for the total (which normally would just be +30 from Advantage alone).

Cavalier sits above the Champion, as all you'd have to do is get your mark attack to trigger once to outdamage the Champion, although it's hard to tell exactly how often it should happen.

[cutlery]

I'm interested in how the Arcane Archer does more damage than the Battlemaster?

Mostly, curving shot; assuming you have no other use for bonus actions.

If you only have a couple of rounds of combat each short rest, I'd expect a battlemaster to beat everything.

Though, the two arcane shot uses are worth a lot more in that case, and a Warlock will laugh in fireball.

[heavyfuel]

I don’t see any issues with the power level of such an EK when measured against other classes, but how about measuring it against other fighters?

I'd still peg it below Echo Knight in versatility, and still below the BM in DPR and combat prowess in general. I think it would make a nice nest of silver medals for combat and versatility.


Mostly, curving shot; assuming you have no other use for bonus actions.

If you only have a couple of rounds of combat each short rest, I'd expect a battlemaster to beat everything.

Though, the two arcane shot uses are worth a lot more in that case, and a Warlock will laugh in fireball.

My biggest issue with Curving Shot is that it spreads your damage, which doesn't help the action in your party's favor.

So yeah, you're technically dealing decent damage, but it's not as useful. An enemy with 1 HP deals as much damage as the same enemy with 100 HP.

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My biggest issue with Curving Shot is that it spreads your damage, which doesn't help the action in your party's favor.


Oh, sure, it pulls into the lead on long adventuring days though as spread out extra damage is better than no extra damage.

[Satori01]

Which is a pretty crappy feature, if you ask me. It's basically only usable with Booming Blade, and is either powercreep (because, let's face it, that's what Booming Blade is when you're only attacking once), or it's completely useless. I'd actually would have rather have had it as a level 3 feature, since that would mean that you'd have a reason to use it for a few levels without Booming Blade.


War Magic is a very good ability in my estimation.
War Magic works on any cantrip, so multi-class combos are possible.

Move Earth + -5/+10 Attack.
Bladeward + -5/+10 Attack.
Toll the Dead + -5/+10 Attack. (Great w/ Death Domain)
Minor Illusion + -5/+10 Attack.
Spare the Dying + -5/+10 Attack.
Mage hand + -5/+10 Attack.
Eldritch Blast + -5/+10 Attack.
Guidance + -5/+10 Attack.
Resistance + -5/+10 Attack.

Guidance followed up by a Grapple attack is a nice combo.

The ability essentially saves you from having to use an Action Surge to accomplish 1 cantrip + Attack. This is great , if ( for example), everyone is out of spell slots and somebody really needs to get a Spare the Dying.

Being able to do something like pulling the "on" lever with Mage Hand for the room sized trap the goblin war band is in, while still able to attack a Barghest within range once, is underrated by some, in my opinion.

[Man_Over_Game]

War Magic is a very good ability in my estimation.
War Magic works on any cantrip, so multi-class combos are possible.

Move Earth + -5/+10 Attack.
Bladeward + -5/+10 Attack.
Toll the Dead + -5/+10 Attack. (Great w/ Death Domain)
Minor Illusion + -5/+10 Attack.
Spare the Dying + -5/+10 Attack.
Mage hand + -5/+10 Attack.
Eldritch Blast + -5/+10 Attack.
Guidance + -5/+10 Attack.
Resistance + -5/+10 Attack.

Guidance followed up by a Grapple attack is a nice combo.

The ability essentially saves you from having to use an Action Surge to accomplish 1 cantrip + Attack. This is great , if ( for example), everyone is out of spell slots and somebody really needs to get a Spare the Dying.

Being able to do something like pulling the "on" lever with Mage Hand for the room sized trap the goblin war band is in, while still able to attack a Barghest within range once, is underrated by some, in my opinion.

Not sure if those are all that good, though.


Of those, only 5 are usable by the EK without multiclassing or feats.
Of those, only 2 are not circumstantial as a combat feature (as Mold Earth, Minor Illusion, and Mage Hand all basically need DM fiat to have the same value as an attack).
Assuming you are multiclassing, taking the EK to level 7 isn't very versatile for the sake of multiclassing. Level 8 is an ASI (on a MAD build that has synergy with many feats through utility), Level 9 gets you Indomitable, Level 10 gives you your Eldritch Strike, and Level 11 is the coveted 3rd Attack.

If I did take a cantrip, I'd probably not use it for combat unless it's covering a major weakness (like a Strength Fighter taking Firebolt). You get 2 cantrips as a EK until level 10, and the extra +1-+2 damage, from that cantrip compared to a normal attack, isn't going to keep up once you get your 3rd attack.
The attack also takes up your Bonus Action, which competes with your GWM or PAM feats.

It's not the worst, I just feel like it kinda contradicts what the EK seems to be wanting to do. Were there more diversity of cantrips for combat use, I'd be all for it, but most of them are just "Firebolt", "Other Firebolt" and "Annoy NPC".

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It's not the worst, I just feel like it kinda contradicts what the EK seems to be wanting to do. Were there more diversity of cantrips for combat use, I'd be all for it, but most of them are just "Firebolt", "Other Firebolt" and "Annoy NPC".

I can't argue with that.

I think GFB/BB are pretty neat, but overall yeah, situationally useful (7-10, and ~17-19; opportunity attacks if war caster, harrying if mobility), but otherwise it's too hard and weird to work them into a round outside of those levels for the fighter archetype that basically does that sort of thing.

It's disappointing.

[Satori01]

EB + 1 Longbow attack is "hard and weird to work with"?

Also Fighter 7th level subclass abilities are not always combat related. See the the Purple Dragon Knight and the Samurai subclasses for starters.

[MrStabby]

I can't argue with that.

I think GFB/BB are pretty neat, but overall yeah, situationally useful (7-10, and ~17-19; opportunity attacks if war caster, harrying if mobility), but otherwise it's too hard and weird to work them into a round outside of those levels for the fighter archetype that basically does that sort of thing.

It's disappointing.

Yeah I agree they are neat cantrips.

I think that explains my uncertainty about whether they are good.

So on the one hand they are cool and support some different playstyles and concepts.

On the other hand they are power creepy, disproportionately reward great stat rolls or increase the gap between optimised and unoptimised characters, and are rare enough that it makes more characters abit samey.

On an EK though, I think they are fine for rounding out some levels and I am pretty happy with them as they can work well with nets.

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EB + 1 Longbow attack is "hard and weird to work with"?

Also Fighter 7th level subclass abilities are not always combat related. See the the Purple Dragon Knight and the Samurai subclasses for starters.

If you're dipping 2 levels of warlock to get EB+AB just to do that at EK 7... kinda.

[MaxWilson]

You could probably pull off something more powerful, consistent and affordable just being a Battlemaster with 3 levels into War Wizard.

You're underestimating how nice free 30' teleportation and 8-9 attacks twice per free rest is.

There are other benefits too like more spell slots than a wizard 3, but I expect you're already aware of them. Arcane Charge is a hidden gem though, for getting you out of grapples/restraints/walls of force, or even just getting you out of melee with a huge beefy monster like a Goristro so you can shoot it without disadvantage and/or save yourself a round of damage (maybe 60-80 HP saved) with _negative_ action economy cost: you get more attacks that round, not less.

Just for the record.

Max

[Satori01]

One only needs 2 levels of Warlock to get Agonizing Blast.
If one is perfectly fine with just Multiple 1d10 Force attacks, one does not even need to take a single level in the warlock class.

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One only needs 2 levels of Warlock to get Agonizing Blast.
If one is perfectly fine with just Multiple 1d10 Force attacks, one does not even need to take a single level in the warlock class.

By spending a feat to gain the spell?

I'd just take fire bolt and get back to chopping with an Ek.


It takes some concerted convolution to pair war magic with eldritch blast and a longbow, never mind the MADness of high cha and high dex to capitalize on it.

[Man_Over_Game]

You're underestimating how nice free 30' teleportation and 8-9 attacks twice per free rest is.

There are other benefits too like more spell slots than a wizard 3, but I expect you're already aware of them. Arcane Charge is a hidden gem though, for getting you out of grapples/restraints/walls of force, or even just getting you out of melee with a huge beefy monster like a Goristro so you can shoot it without disadvantage and/or save yourself a round of damage (maybe 60-80 HP saved) with _negative_ action economy cost: you get more attacks that round, not less.

Just for the record.

Max

But how many people have actually seen it get used? You don't pick a Paladin subclass because the capstone looks cool.

[MrStabby]

By spending a feat to gain the spell?

I'd just take fire bolt and get back to chopping with an Ek.


It takes some concerted convolution to pair war magic with eldritch blast and a longbow, never mind the MADness of high cha and high dex to capitalize on it.


I think that EK plus 2 levels of warlock has been popular for quite some time - usually topped up with rogue for extra damage. And dex + cha is no more mad than you would want from a dexadin - and is probably one of the easier pairs of stats to invest in.

[cutlery]

I think that EK plus 2 levels of warlock has been popular for quite some time - usually topped up with rogue for extra damage. And dex + cha is no more mad than you would want from a dexadin - and is probably one of the easier pairs of stats to invest in.

That's two class levels and choosing to focus on a main stat for what is sort of another bonus action attack.

I mean, I guess it works, but that's a lot of levels to be sort of a one trick pony.

I'd much rather get in there and take advantage of mageslayer. Ranged blasters get pretty boring to me though. At least without a nice selection of control and aoe spells to use and the slots to use them.


But how many people have actually seen it get used? You don't pick a Paladin subclass because the capstone looks cool.

I think in a more perfect world Arcane charge would have been the level 10 archetype feature and eldritch strike the level 15 one - or better yet eldritch strike replaced entirely.

[Tanarii]

By spending a feat to gain the spell?

I'd just take fire bolt and get back to chopping with an Ek.


It takes some concerted convolution to pair war magic with eldritch blast and a longbow, never mind the MADness of high cha and high dex to capitalize on it.

Agreed. Even for Dex EKs, it makes more sense to have Con/Int and just take firebolt.

[Wildstag]

To respond to the OP, I play a druidic-themed EK (I call it Sylvan Knight). It has the conjuration and transmutation schools from the Druid list, uses Wisdom for casting, but in all other ways it is the same as the EK.

So far, I haven't had an issue with it, nor has the GM expressed issues with it. At the very least, the difference can be chalked up to how the Druid's conjuration list is a lot more crowd-controlling focused than a wizard's, but it's still pretty well balanced.

I will say that getting the Druid cantrips also opens up for a slightly more MAD fighter, since Shillelagh adds Wisdom to the possibilities for maxing. Thorn Whip works well for a fighter though, especially with the EK's level 7 feature.

[MrStabby]

That's two class levels and choosing to focus on a main stat for what is sort of another bonus action attack.

I mean, I guess it works, but that's a lot of levels to be sort of a one trick pony.

I'd much rather get in there and take advantage of mageslayer. Ranged blasters get pretty boring to me though. At least without a nice selection of control and aoe spells to use and the slots to use them.



I think in a more perfect world Arcane charge would have been the level 10 archetype feature and eldritch strike the level 15 one - or better yet eldritch strike replaced entirely.

Yeah, it's not so much of a build that massively appealed to me (I preferred a level of death cleric instead), that said, it does have some extra coolness appart from at will damage. Two extra spells per short rest gives a feel for being a bit more magical and rogue does have a number of fun features as well.

More recently I guess you would use hexblade as your warlock and can be SAD instead.

[cutlery]

Yeah, it's not so much of a build that massively appealed to me (I preferred a level of death cleric instead), that said, it does have some extra coolness appart from at will damage. Two extra spells per short rest gives a feel for being a bit more magical and rogue does have a number of fun features as well.

More recently I guess you would use hexblade as your warlock and can be SAD instead.

I do wish the EK had some sort of short rest spell slot recovery; after level 10 or 11 I could see taking some warlock levels just to juice up the sustainability. I'd probably ask my DM if I could use a variant intelligence warlock in that case (and I have some that would be fine with that sort of thing).

Speaking of warlock, why isn't there an invocation like Beguiling Influence that grants Arcana and History?

[Tanarii]

Speaking of warlock, why isn't there an invocation like Beguiling Influence that grants Arcana and History?
There really should be one, along with an option to be Int primary. But you can always take the Sage background for the skills. Plus Warlock is the only class that gets all 5 Int skills as class skills.

[cutlery]

Plus Warlock is the only class that gets all 5 Int skills as class skills.

That seems like a hint. Or a remnant. Maybe both.