Rules for what are groups of people called?

[Scarlet Knight]

I think I did? I said I live in Phoenix, thus am Phoenician. Considering the real Phoenicians didn't even last to the CE, I think that's enough context.


People from Albany are obviously "Albanites", not "Albanians".

The above are quotes from a different thread. I didn't want to derail it so I posted a new one.

I am curious as to the rules for naming people from an area.

People from New York are New Yorkers. Perhaps because it ends in a consonant. People from Virginia use the "ns" ending and are Virginians; perhaps for ending in a vowel. But people from Texas are Texans not Texasers.

Some groups have 2 names: Israeli vs Israelite?

Some have no name: people from Connecticut have to be called "Nutmeggers".

What are people from Vermont called? Vermontois ( similar to Quebecois?) ?

Is it all random? Or is there some entomological rules?

[Kol Korran]

I don't think it's random, but it doesn't follow specific rules. More how people from the region (or outside it) think is a good name, and what sticks...
Many times there may be a few names, and a difference of opinions within the region, outside it or otherwise....

[Peelee]

Basically, it's a lawless wasteland of whatever people collectively decide. For example, in France, they would call people from France "Francais". In America, we would call people from France "French".

There's no rhyme or reason, it's just whatever a large enough group of people decide is right. Which, coincidentally, is also how language works in general.

[jayem]

Basically, it's a lawless wasteland of whatever people collectively decide. For example, in France, they would call people from France "Francais". In America, we would call people from France "French".

There's no rhyme or reason, it's just whatever a large enough group of people decide is right. Which, coincidentally, is also how language works in general.

That would be my basic understanding too. There are, however, some fairly established 'english' suffixes that have a head start in sounding right to english ears.
The "(i)an" is fairly well established, as is the "ite" and "ers" and more.

And part of that is when they resemble (native or otherwise) gramatical rules (e.g. run, runner, runners -> new york, new yorker, new yorkers), but not properly (new york isn't a verb).

[Vinyadan]

I assume that you are talking about English, since every language has its own set of rules. As others have noticed, it has some suffixes it uses for this, like -ian (from Latin), -er and -ish (Germanic), -i (I'm not sure: Arabic? I found it as Semitic in general). Israeli and Israelite isn't the same, the latter isn't related to the State of Israel. The various -ch come from -ish. Then you have German, which would be something like ger-man = spearman, an ancient designation for those who had political rights in one or more Germanic peoples.

You also have names that are adapted from other languages and have no discernible suffix, like "Pole", which is a German loan from a Slavic word that originally meant "field-inhabitant". Spaniard instead comes from French.

There surely are many more rules.

If you mean "who gives these names?", there is a linguistic distinction between endonyms (those which people give to themselves as a group) and exonyms (those which other people give to a community). Notice that an exonym can cover a number of peoples that have no common endonym and don't consider themselves the same people, like iirc "mountain people" in Western Africa, and the opposite is also probably true, although I currently have no examples.



Is it all random? Or is there some entomological rules?

Entomology studies insects, though :smallbiggrin:

[Wizard_Lizard]

Well I, being from New Zealand, am New Zealandic.

I think?

[Rynjin]

Well I, being from New Zealand, am New Zealandic.

I think?

I thought the proper term was Kiwi, making you have something in common with "Nutmeggers".

[Wizard_Lizard]

I thought the proper term was Kiwi, making you have something in common with "Nutmeggers".

Hm yea kiwi is named after the floofy bird.Kinda Like why Australiens are called australiens
I just like new zealandic better.

[Peelee]

Well I, being from New Zealand, am New Zealandic.

Well I, being from America, am envious.

[Red Fel]

I assume that you are talking about English, since every language has its own set of rules. As others have noticed, it has some suffixes it uses for this, like -ian (from Latin), -er and -ish (Germanic), -i (I'm not sure: Arabic? I found it as Semitic in general). Israeli and Israelite isn't the same, the latter isn't related to the State of Israel. The various -ch come from -ish. Then you have German, which would be something like ger-man = spearman, an ancient designation for those who had political rights in one or more Germanic peoples.

I think there's also an element of modernity to it, in that historically, Europeans would assign exonyms basically as they liked. See for example calling Native Americans, a group composed of many diverse nations, "Indians" as a general label. Whereas nowadays, groups are generally named with more sensitivity. For instance, in the OP's example, Israeli is indeed the Modern Hebrew term, with the -i ending indicating group affiliation (if I recall). *scrubbed*

Thus, I think, you see a more modern naming convention consisting of calling groups by their endonyms - especially where the term assigned to those groups is seen as pejorative. By contrast, larger, more long-established groups - like whole nations - who don't see a name as pejorative have done little to change what they are called, and so we have these terms that don't necessarily connect. For example, at some point, Portuguese traders learned the term Zipang from the Asian mainland, and Nihon became Japan. As a result, the endonym Nihonjin is replaced outside of the country by the exonym Japanese (or Japonais, or Yapani, or whatever works in the local language), and nobody seems particularly bothered by this.

[Brother Oni]

Unless loanwords are used, Chinese sticks the character for person/people (人) to the end of the country name, for example American is 美國人 or literally 'America People'.
This can be applied to locations as well, for example Hong Kong people is 香港人, which has been translated into English as 'Hong Konger'.

Japan broadly follows the same construction (for example Chinese people are 中国人 or 'China People') except when it doesn't, because Japanese. :smallsigh:
For example, rather than the nice sensible 英国人 ('England People') for English people, they prefer to transliterate 'English' using their loanword alphabet katakana to 'Igirisu' (イギリス) then tag the people part on the end, so イギリス人.


By contrast, larger, more long-established groups - like whole nations - who don't see a name as pejorative have done little to change what they are called, and so we have these terms that don't necessarily connect.

Technically speaking, the Japanese did around about the 8th Century, from their original pejorative name Wa (倭) by the Chinese (meaning dwarf, either due to their short stature or their habit of bowing) and the endonym Yamato, to the more recognisable 日本國 or in Japanese Nihon/Nippon (日本国), meaning 'Sun's Origin Country'.

By the time the Portuguese rolled round to what is now Malaysia and picked up the Malay word Japang/Japun, 日本国 was the official name of the country and kept on using it when they finally landed on Japan.


For example, at some point, Portuguese traders learned the term Zipang from the Asian mainland, and Nihon became Japan. As a result, the endonym Nihonjin is replaced outside of the country by the exonym Japanese (or Japonais, or Yapani, or whatever works in the local language), and nobody seems particularly bothered by this.

The Japanese even embrace this make some absolutely glorious puns: there's an anime about baking bread (called pan in Japanese), and the quest of the protagonist to create a unique signature Japanese national bread or nihon pan, known as the Ja-pan. :smallbiggrin:

[Scarlet Knight]

Entomology studies insects, though [/FONT]:smallbiggrin:

Etymology :smallredface:

[Yora]

But why is it Glaswegians and not Glasgowians?

[LaZodiac]

Well I, being from New Zealand, am New Zealandic.

I think?

I've always heard it as New Zealander, like Newfoundlander and so on. It's like how Canadians can be called Canadians, or Canucks.

What little research I've done into this topic makes me think it really is just pure and totally arbitrary and decided basically at random, like how almost all "groups of X animal" names are made up by one guy who noticed no one had named them and decided to do so.

They might have origins (Canuck was a term used to refer to Dutch, German, and French-Canadians) but on the whole they just seem to just be whatever caught on.

[jayem]

But why is it Glaswegians and not Glasgowians?
Wiki says (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Glaswegian) to match Galway and Norway.
(it also gives some foreign varients)

As a non-etymnologist, going from Glesca-i-an, and at some point softening the c and strengthening the middle of 3/4 vowels makes a degree of sense.

__
The Beano had the Jocks and Georgies
Also where the tribal name and national name are sufficiently old, they may have evolved and competed independently for a while

[Eldan]

Likewise, the pejorative Gypsy has now fallen out of use, in favor of the endonym Roma (or Romani).

More complicated than that, actually. There's several travelling groups and ethnicities in Europe and not all of them want to be called Roma.

[Fyraltari]

OP, the word you are looking for is demonym (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demonym).

The funny thing is that these don’t always evolve in the same way as the name of the place they refer too, which sometimes lead to names that don’t sound related at all.

[truemane]

People from Halifax, Nova Scotia, on the East Coast of Canada, call themselves Haligonians.

That offers nothing substantive to the on-going conversation, but that word makes me smile every time I get to use it.

[snowblizz]

Well I, being from New Zealand, am New Zealandic.

I think?
New Zealander, like Derek Zoolander. New Zealandic would denote a language or origin. If you didn't speak English you would probably be said to speak New Zealandic.


I assume that you are talking about English, since every language has its own set of rules. As others have noticed, it has some suffixes it uses for this, like -ian (from Latin), -er and -ish (Germanic), -i (I'm not sure: Arabic? I found it as Semitic in general). Israeli and Israelite isn't the same, the latter isn't related to the State of Israel. The various -ch come from -ish. Then you have German, which would be something like ger-man = spearman, an ancient designation for those who had political rights in one or more Germanic peoples.

-i is Latin, Ancient Latin uses -i and -ii to denote people/tribes (both or one of them, not sure). You'll find in basically every mention of a barbarian tribe. Alemanni, Marcomanni, Gothi etc etc etc.


You also have names that are adapted from other languages and have no discernible suffix, like "Pole", which is a German loan from a Slavic word that originally meant "field-inhabitant". Spaniard instead comes from French.

There surely are many more rules.

If you mean "who gives these names?", there is a linguistic distinction between endonyms (those which people give to themselves as a group) and exonyms (those which other people give to a community). Notice that an exonym can cover a number of peoples that have no common endonym and don't consider themselves the same people, like iirc "mountain people" in Western Africa, and the opposite is also probably true, although I currently have no examples.


One of my favourites is actually Sweden. I was reading a book written by someone who is well into dialects, which basically was called "How Svitjod turned into Sweden". And it traces how a lose tribal kingship of a sorts develops into a medieaval central state in Sweden, and you can sort of follow it in how the name of the cultural/authority/power structure itself changes. Svitjod basically meaing the "Swea people" a rule of people, not land. Eventually as kingship evolves the name changes into the "Swea people's realm" which incidentally is a term used by their neighbours. The modern Swedish name for the country itself, Sverige, is therefore a name applied by it's most important neighbours not one created internally. Basically, the nation formed in a symbiose of what others thought of them.


That would be my basic understanding too. There are, however, some fairly established 'english' suffixes that have a head start in sounding right to english ears.
The "(i)an" is fairly well established, as is the "ite" and "ers" and more.

And part of that is when they resemble (native or otherwise) gramatical rules (e.g. run, runner, runners -> new york, new yorker, new yorkers), but not properly (new york isn't a verb). A lot of these are following older rules for how you conjugate nouns into adjectives. There used to be suffixes for a lot of states, like grammatical genders, ownership of an item, all kinds of things. Some of the rules survive this way. Basically the way you conjugate a verb could and was done on nouns and adjectives.

And it follows that these preferrably are easy to say so you follow similar establlished patterns.




People from New York are New Yorkers. Perhaps because it ends in a consonant. People from Virginia use the "ns" ending and are Virginians; perhaps for ending in a vowel. But people from Texas are Texans not Texasers. It's bewcause the New Yorkers refuse to be referred to as New Yorkies.
Keep in mind Texas used to be the Texican republic with Texicans, or something like that before it was absordbed into the United State.



Some have no name: people from Connecticut have to be called "Nutmeggers". It's because Conneticut is already too hard to pronounce and it's too unimportant for anyone to notice.



What are people from Vermont called? Vermontois ( similar to Quebecois?) ?
"Posh".


Is it all random? Or is there some entomological rules?
It's not exactly random, but there are no specific rules either. A lot of it comes from conventions (so e.g. how nouns are turned into adjectives) and then linguistic feasability. Basically, you one way or another end up with something people can easily pronounce.

[Eldan]

It's bewcause the New Yorkers refuse to be referred to as New Yorkies.
Keep in mind Texas used to be the Texican republic with Texicans, or something like that before it was absordbed into the United State.

The Wiki article on that is interesting. Anglo Texans used to be Texians, while Hispanic Texans were/still are Tejanos.

[Vinyadan]

-i is Latin, Ancient Latin uses -i and -ii to denote people/tribes (both or one of them, not sure). You'll find in basically every mention of a barbarian tribe. Alemanni, Marcomanni, Gothi etc etc etc.

-i is a Latin ending, but it's a different one. In those cases, it's simply a nominative plural -- so you have libri (the books), agri (the fields), viri (the men). Alemanni, Marcomanni, Gothi (or Gothones) were simply plurals (of Alemannus, Marcomannus, Gothus/Gotho). However, it is notable that in ancient languages (Greek in particular, and many Greek ones were carried over to Latin) not too rarely cities (implying citizenship) had a plural name, so Athens and Thebes, for example, had plural names; so did Delphi, which, strictly speaking, wasn't a city but a sanctuary.

-ii was closer to that, in the sense that -ius implied provenance, so Iulius was supposed to be a descendant of Iulus. The Iulii would be a group of people united by belonging to the Gens Iulia, the descendents of Iulus. It could also come from a place to designate its inhabitants, like Delos (island)-Delius/Delii (people from there), Melus-Melius/Melii (both cases under Greek influence).

In general, Semitic sounds more likely, at least because most of those countries (Iraq, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, UAE) are recent countries where Hebrew or Arabic are preponderant. The exceptions are Pakistan, which is recent but not Arabic, and Oman, which is Arabic but not too recent.

[WinterKnight404]

I wonder how much of it is just influenced by the media. Generally, when you hear a news report on somewhere distant you rely on how the media refers to a local resident and forever call people from there based on what you heard/read.

As for New Yorkers, that is the term people in New York City use to call themselves. I live in the state and we avoid that term like the plague. New Yorkers are so smug and view the rest of the state as just there to support them, which in a sense is true, the taxes are so high because of NYC. I don't want to go to far off on a tangent here so I'll just say, at least in my part of the state, we prefer to go by our town/city locality names.

[SirKazum]

The different suffixes have somewhat different meanings though, which in some cases might influence which suffix gets utilized. For example, the demonym for Brazil (Brazilian), in Portuguese, is "Brasileiro", not "Brasiliano" - the -eiro is a direct cognate of English -er, meaning someone who does a certain thing (e.g. farmer = someone who farms). I read that's because the name "Brazil" comes from pau-brasil aka brazilwood (the "brasil" in "pau-brasil" means "like embers", due to its bright red color), since that was this region's main natural resource and the reason why Europeans came here in the early days of colonization. So, any white person living in Brazil was presumably a brazilwood logger, or, in other words, a "Braziler" (brasileiro). Dunno how much this sort of rationale influences other demonyms though.

[Scarlet Knight]

I wonder how much of it is just influenced by the media. Generally, when you hear a news report on somewhere distant you rely on how the media refers to a local resident and forever call people from there based on what you heard/read.

As for New Yorkers, that is the term people in New York City use to call themselves. I live in the state and we avoid that term like the plague. New Yorkers are so smug and view the rest of the state as just there to support them, which in a sense is true, the taxes are so high because of NYC. I don't want to go to far off on a tangent here so I'll just say, at least in my part of the state, we prefer to go by our town/city locality names.

Hmm; as a New Yorker living outside the city I don't find that in my region. Are you from Long Island?

Plus you have me thinking about how NYC people often like to refer to themselves by borough : Brooklynite, Staten Islander, Manhattanite. Funny how people from Queens & the Bronx refer to themselves as "Queens residents" and "from da Bronx" respectively.

[Spore]

Funny how people from Queens & the Bronx refer to themselves as "Queens residents" and "from da Bronx" respectively.

Any group from Queens that does not refer to themselves as Royalty of Queens will be hereby barred from my annual airing of grievances. Alos no more catsup for your burgers!

Language is always a mixture between personal inventiveness and general consensus. I think correct spelling are just a relatively current invention (current as in: book printing is a new technology) Varying names for groups were required before, and not only need to be precise enough to be distinct for their respective surroundings (a guy from Phoenix is unlikely to meet an Ancient Phoenician), but they also convey a sense of belonging, of being part of a community.

This is also why central European countries have different dialects every 50-100km. In Germany especially (due to the country being divided in so many small dukedoms centuries ago) you often even have people who don't feel German but rather Swabian or Hamburgian. A prominent example is Bavaria.

[Rockphed]

Hmm; as a New Yorker living outside the city I don't find that in my region. Are you from Long Island?

Plus you have me thinking about how NYC people often like to refer to themselves by borough : Brooklynite, Staten Islander, Manhattanite. Funny how people from Queens & the Bronx refer to themselves as "Queens residents" and "from da Bronx" respectively.

I remember a book from my childhood where Manhattan had declared itself a free and independent state.

[Telonius]

-ite is sometimes used when the others would be awkward to pronounce, or sound dumb. My hometown is Erie, PA. Erier sounds weird ("weirder," technically, which is a whole other issue), Erieian is just horrible, and Erian just doesn't sound right; so we generally go with Erieite. (Stringing Erie and ite together with an understated y-sound; Erie-yite). We got the city name from the lake, which got its name from a local Indian nation. (The word meant "long tail," which was supposedly a reference to a wildcat or raccoon).

[Scarlet Knight]

I wonder how much of it is just influenced by the media. Generally, when you hear a news report on somewhere distant you rely on how the media refers to a local resident and forever call people from there based on what you heard/read.


I guess that is now my next question: all over America there are newspaper editors. They all know which is the right way (or at least the same way) to address their readers all over while avoiding letters stating " Dear sirs, we do NOT refer to ourselves as New Hampshirians; it's New Hampshirites."

Is there an editor handbook used by national newspapers, magazines, radio, TV, etc? Particularly prior to Google? If not, why not? It would be have been so useful for nation wide broadcasters!

[jayem]

I guess that is now my next question: all over America there are newspaper editors. They all know which is the right way (or at least the same way) to address their readers all over while avoiding letters stating " Dear sirs, we do NOT refer to ourselves as New Hampshirians; it's New Hampshirites."

Is there an editor handbook used by national newspapers, magazines, radio, TV, etc? Particularly prior to Google? If not, why not? It would be have been so useful for nation wide broadcasters!

That was worth a google (made much quicker by whoever it was who gave the proper name...wiki has a links (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_demonyms_for_U.S._states) including a Government Publishing Style Manual and Associated Press Stylebook (not that surprised they exist we had to use 'harvard' style references)
(Dictionaries often have a number also)

Although in any case I guess the odds are that the news you are reporting is local or major (so you know it), you can avoid them ("Residents of Smallville were..."), or you are working off a local to the incident report (which may use it). Or you are planning to get your moneys worth from the lookup, demonstrating how clever you are knowing the words.

[Bonecrusher Doc]

So New Yorkers are only from New York city, while people from other parts of the state of New York are...?

I wish there was a difference, but people from Washington State and people from Washington, DC are both called "Washingtonians."

You just have to infer from context. In fact, in the state of Washington people frequently say they are from "Washington State" to make things clear. Whereas people from Oregon of course don't say, "I'm from Oregon State."

I don't suppose it would make sense to insist that people from Washington DC call themselves Columbians!

[Peelee]

So New Yorkers are only from New York city, while people from other parts of the state of New York are...?

I wish there was a difference, but people from Washington State and people from Washington, DC are both called "Washingtonians."

You just have to infer from context. In fact, in the state of Washington people frequently say they are from "Washington State" to make things clear. Whereas people from Oregon of course don't say, "I'm from Oregon State."

I don't suppose it would make sense to insist that people from Washington DC call themselves Columbians!

Maybe they should be Capitolists.

[paddyfool]

Maybe they should be Capitolists.

Hillists? DeeCeesians?

[Fyraltari]

So New Yorkers are only from New York city, while people from other parts of the state of New York are...?


How about new Yorkers and New Yorkians as well as Washingtoners and Washingtonians?

[Rynjin]

Maybe they should be Capitolists.

In my experience people who actually have to live in DC just call themselves "miserable".

[Peelee]

In my experience people who actually have to live in DC just call themselves "miserable".

Maybe they would be happier if they were able to have roads instead of a lot of interconnected lines of potholes.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

How about new Yorkers and New Yorkians as well as Washingtoners and Washingtonians?

Since they were amongst the first to legalize certain recreational drug in the US, maybe the appropriate name should be Washingstoners.
I'll see myself out
GW

[Rockphed]

Maybe they would be happier if they were able to have roads instead of a lot of interconnected lines of potholes.

They just need to be introduced to Detroit roads. Everything seems better when you have something horrible to compare it to.

Speaking of DC, I find that now that I live in relative proximity thereto that I confuse people when I mention that my wife is from "north west Washington". Seems that the north-west side of the capitol district is rather a crime ridden slum. I think I have stared a half dozen people down in confusion over this.

[Peelee]

They just need to be introduced to Detroit roads. Everything seems better when you have something horrible to compare it to.

Speaking of DC, I find that now that I live in relative proximity thereto that I confuse people when I mention that my wife is from "north west Washington". Seems that the north-west side of the capitol district is rather a crime ridden slum. I think I have stared a half dozen people down in confusion over this.

Maybe try a different route. Something like "Southern Canada. Really southern."

[Rockphed]

Maybe try a different route. Something like "Southern Canada. Really southern."

I mean I could change to saying "the Puget sound", but I feel like continuing to confuse people.

[Scarlet Knight]

How about new Yorkers and New Yorkians as well as Washingtoners and Washingtonians?

We prefer New Yorkers while the city prefers New Yaw-kas.

[Grey Watcher]

Hmm; as a New Yorker living outside the city I don't find that in my region. Are you from Long Island?

Plus you have me thinking about how NYC people often like to refer to themselves by borough : Brooklynite, Staten Islander, Manhattanite. Funny how people from Queens & the Bronx refer to themselves as "Queens residents" and "from da Bronx" respectively.

Well, we "Queenian" or "Queenite" sounds dumb and if we just call ourselves "Queens", that implies something else entirely.

But seriously, at least for Queens in particular, we often think of ourselves as being from particular neighborhoods: Astoria, Jackson Heights, Forest Hills, Rego Park, etc. Even on our mail, we write "Astoria, NY" not "Queens, NY" (unlike Brooklynites or are more likely to just put "Brooklyn, NY"). So we are more likely to use group names that reflect that (eg "Astorian"). Can't speak for how they do it in the Bronx.


So New Yorkers are only from New York city, while people from other parts of the state of New York are...?

Not to be discussed unless absolutely necessary. :smalltongue:

Though I suppose, again, people mostly identify with a region or town in that case, like Albanite or... what would call someone from Buffalo anyway? Buffalonian?

Though it doesn't get too much worse than the nickname people from my home state of Massachusetts got stuck with....

[TexasSkiandFish]

People from Bozeman, montana are called bozos.

[Peelee]

People from Bozeman, montana are called bozos.

That's no way to talk about Zefram Cochrane!

[truemane]

Though it doesn't get too much worse than the nickname people from my home state of Massachusetts got stuck with....
Matt Damon?


That's no way to talk about Zefram Cochrane!
"Don't try to be a Bozeman. Just be a bozo. And let history decide."

[Aedilred]

Some of my favourites:

Savoy -> Savoyard
Manchester -> Mancunian
Monaco -> Monégasque
Barbados -> Bajan
Netherlands -> Dutch
East London -> Cockney


The "-ard" onn "Savoyard" is just a marginally unusual ending, comparable to "Lombard"

Mancunian is a fairly modern coinage from the supposed Roman name for the town, Mancunium. "Manchester" itself purports at a Roman origin, as all -chester, -cester or -caster towns and cities do (being Anglicised versions of caestrum, a Roman army camp.

Monegasque is from the name for the town in the old native Romance language, translated into French.

Bajan derives from Barbados by a series of successive shortenings and then affricating the middle consonant.

"Dutch" simply means "the people" in that language (as in German). More of the issue here is that the modern Netherlands neither contains the whole of the Dutch-speaking people, nor the whole of the Netherlands. Like the USA, it's a collection of states which owes its unity to historic political factors more than anything else. So neither name is really all that satisfactory for it, but there's also not a lot else. ("Holland" is commonly used in English instead, which is at least geographically specific, but a bit like calling the USA "New York").

No idea where "Cockney" comes from. Though true Cockneys are increasingly an endangered species in any case.

[SirKazum]

No idea where "Cockney" comes from. Though true Cockneys are increasingly an endangered species in any case.

I've read somewhere that "cockney" comes through a circuitous route from some 1600's slang or something like that, where people from "the big cities" were called "cockled eggs" because they were too soft or something.

[Vizzerdrix]

I am from Maine, and to us, their are two types of people. Mainers, being obviously people from Maine, and From Away, being everyone else.

[Peelee]

I am from Maine, and to us, their are two types of people. Mainers, being obviously people from Maine, and From Away, being everyone else.

Fun fact! The rest of the US has a different way to call people from Maine. Specifically, they are called "wait, people live in Maine? What, like, 10 people? More? REALLY?!":smalltongue:

[Fyraltari]

Fun fact! The rest of the US has a different way to call people from Maine. Specifically, they are called "wait, people live in Maine? What, like, 10 people? More? REALLY?!":smalltongue:

See, these ten are the main Mainers, they're mainly there to manage the mainland.

[Vizzerdrix]

Fun fact! The rest of the US has a different way to call people from Maine. Specifically, they are called "wait, people live in Maine? What, like, 10 people? More? REALLY?!":smalltongue:


See, these ten are the main Mainers, they're mainly there to manage the mainland.

http://gph.is/1Us4pat

[Eldan]

See, these ten are the main Mainers, they're mainly there to manage the mainland.

And if they rent a place in Maine, are they Maine Tenants?

[Scarlet Knight]

And if they rent a place in Maine, are they Maine Tenants?

Only if the workers who take care of their rentals are Maine Tenants men.

[Wraith]

As BrotherOni remarked on the previous page, how different groups choose to label themselves is as much a matter of culture as it is language; the way that a group defines "Us" versus "Them" and whether or not that distinction is a close one, impersonal one, antagonist one, etc.

The example he gave in regards to Japan's label for the Chinese - "China People". Not "The People" or "Other People", but a strict definition of "You are from there, I am from here, and that is different".

And as I think about that, I realise how the same thing occurs in English and why what I call myself isn't just a fad or a quirky turn of phrase, but was decided by something that happened millennia ago.

The apocryphal story that brought this thought into focus was President John F. Kennedy's address to the people of Berlin in 1963, when he publicly declared himself to be a brand of jam doughnut; "Ich bin ein Berliner" being an inadvertent pun for a brand of confectionary and a grammatically appropriate way of saying, "I am a citizen of Berlin" in support of the West German resistance against the Soviet East. Everyone in the crowd knew what he meant, they all cheered, and tabloid journalists had their fun - no harm done.

An there's the thing; they recognised what he wanted to say because the way that German works means that the suffix of -er is appropriate to mean 'belongs to' whereas in English we don't have a single unifying equivalent, and it's because of the French. Kind of.

As an example; the biggest city near to where I live is Nottingham - yes it's real, yes we have a castle, yes there is a real Sherwood Forest. Despite the medieval folklore, the name of the city goes back a thousand years before that to our Viking ancestors and the supposed-founder of the town, a guy named Snot who was a thane (a minor noble, for those non-Skyrim players) and needed a place to call his own. Snot-thane-hame - "Snot-the-Thane's-Home".
Then in 1066, Britain was conquered by the French Baron from Normandy led by William the Conqueror who became King William I of England, and he ordered a census to find out exactly while kind of crummy, backwater island he had gotten himself into. It apparently turned out that native speakers of medieval French didn't have to deal with the sn- combination very often and struggled with it, so in a stroke of pure bureaucracy they decided that they just wouldn't bother and shortened it down - welcome to Not-tan-ham. Nottingham.

I don't know how much of that is true (from what I know of local history though, it seems highly plausible) but nonetheless it got me to thinking: In Nottingham, we wouldn't have cheered for JFK and would instead of just looked at each other, confused.
"Nottingham-er" just doesn't work. I know what he's implying, but words no good speak bad with. In fact, there isn't another equivalent, to my knowledge - no Nottinghamite, no Nottinger, and Nottinghamionian is just nonsense and part of that is because we generally don't think of ourselves as coming from "Snot's Home". I come from My Home.

It's not unique to the city. Someone above mentioned that people from East London were Cockneys, which strictly speaking is only partially true - to be an actual Cockney you need to have been born in a particular parish, traditionally within earshot of the bells of a particular church. The accent gets about a bit, but genuine cockneys are, more or less, a village within a city that still defines itself as 'other' to those who live on the other side of an imaginary boundary, because that's where their ancestors lived in 500AD.

And then in the 1600's you guys picked up all of our nonsensical linguistic baggage, added a generous dose of Puritanistic allegory and metaphor, and shipped it with you to the new world where it crashed headlong into a thousand native languages, a not-insignificant swathe of Dutch, and Spanish besides.

The point that I am laboriously getting around to is, we have had 1500 years and 5 separate languages in which to argue about this sort of thing and we still get it wrong - don't ask me how you get "Geordie" from "person who lives in the city named Newcastle". The important thing is, you guys in the US have barely had 300 years to work on it and that's hardly enough time to reach consensus. You'll get there in the end, and I promise it will make as little sense as possible to anyone who doesn't live there. :smallsmile:

[Scarlet Knight]

Wraith; I don't care if the story is true or not; it is too good a story to not accept as true!

[Rockphed]

Having looked at census records, I believe that petty bureaucrats would just drop letters that they did not have orthography for. There is a reason that the us government invented soundex.

[Ajustusdaniel]

Designating where someone is from also varies based on the location and origin of the speaker. I mean, there's obvious language differences, but beyond that, in a small town in a hilly region with a large seasonal tourist population, the latter might be "Summer People," or "Flatlanders." There's a large swathe of New York State where describing anyone as "from the city," means New York City, regardless of the existence of other, perhaps nearby cities in New York. Contrariwise, from experience, telling people from outside the United States that I'm a New Yorker leads to the assumption that I'm from NYC.

[DavidSh]

Having looked at census records, I believe that petty bureaucrats would just drop letters that they did not have orthography for. There is a reason that the us government invented soundex.
And you also get misreading of hand-writing. Thus, when I look up some of my ancestors in transcribed census records, I sometimes see "c" mis-transcribed as "e".

[Rockphed]

And you also get misreading of hand-writing. Thus, when I look up some of my ancestors in transcribed census records, I sometimes see "c" mis-transcribed as "e".

I have done some transcribing. It is really hard to read some handwriting.

[Fyraltari]

Then in 1066, Britain was conquered by the French Baron from Normandy led by William the Conqueror who became King William I of England
William was duke of Normandy, not baron.

and he ordered a census to find out exactly while kind of crummy, backwater island he had gotten himself into. It apparently turned out that native speakers of medieval French didn't have to deal with the sn- combination very often and struggled with it, so in a stroke of pure bureaucracy they decided that they just wouldn't bother and shortened it down - welcome to Not-tan-ham. Nottingham.
I can't find a single modern french word with a "sn" sound even. It can pronounced fairly easily by any French speaker but we don't have any reason to, it would seem.


I don't know how much of that is true (from what I know of local history though, it seems highly plausible)
That's definitely a thing French bureaucrats would do.

but nonetheless it got me to thinking: In Nottingham, we wouldn't have cheered for JFK and would instead of just looked at each other, confused."Nottingham-er" just doesn't work. I know what he's implying, but words no good speak bad with. In fact, there isn't another equivalent, to my knowledge - no Nottinghamite, no Nottinger, and Nottinghamionian is just nonsense and part of that is because we generally don't think of ourselves as coming from "Snot's Home". I come from My Home.
That's interesting. French cities and towns all have an associated demonym. Generally something obscure and related to the latin etymology of the places' name that you need to go on Wikipedia to know.

Anyhoo, here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demonym#Suffixation)'s Wikipedia's list of English demonyms.

[Vinyadan]

French seems to have something against s+consonant in particular. See the various fenêtre* (<fenestra), épaule** (<spathula), etc.

* window **shoulder

One name edit I enjoy is that of Scorsese. Martin Scorsese's ancestors were actually Italians with the surname Scozzese = "Scotsman".

[Rockphed]

French seems to have something against s+consonant in particular. See the various fenêtre* (<fenestra), épaule** (<spathula), etc.

* window **shoulder

One name edit I enjoy is that of Scorsese. Martin Scorsese's ancestors were actually Italians with the surname Scozzese = "Scotsman".

There was a lets play in these parts, "The Scottsman of Venice". Is it based on his family history?

[Wraith]

William was duke of Normandy, not baron.

Much obliged, thank you.


That's interesting. French cities and towns all have an associated demonym. Generally something obscure and related to the latin etymology of the places' name that you need to go on Wikipedia to know.

This is pretty much the point I was making - posters above were struggling to find a difference between a New Yorker (city) and a New Yorker (State), assuming that it had to make sense in some way.

For example, we have a York in Britain - presumably the original from which New York was named - and if you're from there, British people will call you a Tyke (to rhyme with 'bike').

People from Newcastle (North-East) are Geordies. People from Liverpool (Middle-West, near the top of Wales) are Scousers. And people from London are Londoners, unless they're also Cockneys. It's all complete nonsense, but here we are anyway.

I just hope that in the USA they refer to people from Birmingham, Alabama as 'Brummies' because that's what we call people from Birmingham, England and the idea of there being an American city where everyone speaks with a Brummie accent (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYDK_o32yis) makes me happy. :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

I just hope that in the USA they refer to people from Birmingham, Alabama as 'Brummies' because that's what we call people from Birmingham, England and the idea of there being an American city where everyone speaks with a Brummie accent (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYDK_o32yis) makes me happy. :smallbiggrin:

The words people in the USA refer to people from Birmingham would typically be forum-inappropriate.

Which is a shame, the greater Birmingham area is a delightful place. I had some friends in Inverness growing up, there's a huge outlet mall over in Leeds, Pelham is growing nicely, but you probably want to stay out of Brighton.