Question about Redcloak's Plans. *spoilers*

[Snowtwo]

Maybe this was answered elsewhere, but I do feel I need to ask. Redcloak wants equality for all Goblins and everything. Right? Okay, fine, that seems mostly straight-forwards. Here's the issue though. What about Goblins that, for whatever reason, are beyond his ability to protect? I mean, humans have bandits who get killed all the time as starting fodder as well and even if Redcloak succeeds it's almost certain that Goblins will find themselves added to the ranks. What about goblin clans that, for whatever reason, refuse to bow to Redcloak and join his nation? Or Goblins simply located well beyond the borders of Goblin land? There's no way Redcloak could ensure their protection and if they start doing things like raiding the local farms for supplies there will almost certainly be adventurers who fight back, except now there may be goblin adventurers among them. Even in the balance between goblins and 'normal' races gets completely flipped you'd still see goblin bandits, goblin renegades, goblins in service to evil forces (good forces?), and goblins that are, well, EVIL (good?)! Those are beings that would need disposing of, presumably by adventurers. And what about places like the Empire of Blood where slavery is legal? They would see the increase in goblin civilians as little more than an increase in the variety and size of their slave pool.

Did Redcloak ever think about these things or say anything about it? Because it seems like his plan is doomed to failure even if he succeeds beyond his wildest dreams and makes Goblin the default player race somehow. Cause Goblins will keep being killed by adventurers (even if some of said adventurers are now Goblins) and if he's trying to change the image of Goblins then destroying a peaceful nation of good-aligned paladins unprovoked while allying with a lich to effectively hold a gun to the heads of the gods themselves seems like a surefire way to ensure that Goblins will FOREVER be typecast as the evil race and none of the other races will want to be associated with them.

Did Redcloak ever say or mention... anything... to show he thought his plans through? Cause it seems like he's set up his own plans to doom themselves to failure even if he succeed through unreasonable goals and terrible methods.

[hroþila]

Ostensibly, Redcloak wants a level playing field and equality of opportunities. The Plan as presented so far is not about making goblinoids untouchable no matter the context - that wouldn't be equality, that'd be making the goblinoids into a superior caste.

How serious Redcloak is to his commitment to actual equality is up to debate, but that's how he's always talked about this so far.

[Snowtwo]

While making the playing field 'level' would seem like a possible goal we've seen him ignore the chance to actually have a level playing field multiple times (Azure City for example) and is now effectively going all-in on a gamble that is guarenteed to result in a playing field that is either equal but segregated (since every race will consider goblins unconditionally evil if he succeeds) or completely unenforceable. The only way he could 'win' would be by focusing on his nation and working to make it a place where goblins and other races can get along peacefully to change the perception of other races. Of course I guess it's not surprising Redcloak lacks the depth of vision to realize he's sabotaging himself.

[Sebastian]

Redcloak want the kind of equality where goblinoids are more equal than the others.

[Snowtwo]

All races are equal but goblins are more equal than others?

[MoiMagnus]

Don't forget OOTS takes place in a universe following roughly the rules of D&D 3.5, which does not put every race at equality.

More importantly, it seems that a lot of gods other than TDO are discriminating against goblinoids, which mean not a lot of clerics/paladins/..., which is a massive disadvantage, both for military, economy, and a lot of practical issues (medicine, ...).

As for broader reforms, the whole XP system baked into the world's rules make it logical for some races to just used as XP farms. I don't think Redcloak has enough understanding of the situation to suggest it, but a world update that remove XPs (or at least XP rewards for killing sentient beings) would probably significantly improves the situation.

[Morty]

Redcloak want the kind of equality where goblinoids are more equal than the others.

People keep saying that and I see no particular reason to believe it. It'd be accurate to say Redcloak is more interested in validating his own choices and has lost sight of his original intent, but what exactly suggests he wants goblin supremacy over other races?

[Snowtwo]

People keep saying that and I see no particular reason to believe it. It'd be accurate to say Redcloak is more interested in validating his own choices and has lost sight of his original intent, but what exactly suggests he wants goblin supremacy over other races?

This seems to be a more accurate statement of how he's acting. I.E. he's already decided on an end goal and the choices and decisions he needs to perform to attain it (in his own mind) and is more interested in seeking validation for it than actually achieving it. He's got a narrow field of view and his vision is telescoped in on only one desirable outcome. He's entirely blind to the possibility that he's harming his own stated endgoal, nor does he really care as his endgoal isn't 'actually' goblin equality (that desirable but incidental) but being right. That makes a lot more sense now that you say that. It's an eye-opening realization.

[Anymage]

Redcloak is so invested in The Plan, that I could easily see him giving up on the dream of goblin equality if it means giving up on said plan. The whole sunk cost thing is a key part of his character.

I do think that if plan B (blowing up the world and letting TDO have a hand in the new one) were viable, Redcloak wouldn't be too upset that goblin beggars or bandits existed so long as all races got to roll on the same profession chart, so to speak. He's smart enough to realize that you can't have everything perfect, and will recognize a good deal when it comes along. Single-minded obsession with The Plan being the exception.

[Mastikator]

Redcloak doesn't get to dictate terms with the gods on what the lives of goblins have. The Dark One does, Redcloak's job is to hand the Dark One a nuke so that he has actual leverage. It kinda doesn't matter if Redcloak secretly wants superiority, it's not up to him.

Unless he goes with Plan B (Thor's plan) which requires that talks to the Dark One and convinces the Dark One to stop The Plan in favor of collaborating with the other gods. This would actually give Redcloak more power since then he actually gets to dictate terms AND the other pantheons don't become hostages but collaborators with The Dark One.

However I think MoiMagnus has it right. The system of rewarding exp for kills is inheritly bad and inevitably leads to the situation the goblins (and many other races) live with. TBH I don't think any ending where those rules change can be counted as a happy ending.

[KorvinStarmast]

Ostensibly, Redcloak wants a level playing field and equality of opportunities. It seems to me that Redcloak wants revenge. Not on a small scale, like conquering a city, but on a large scale.

[Snowtwo]

Redcloak doesn't get to dictate terms with the gods on what the lives of goblins have. The Dark One does, Redcloak's job is to hand the Dark One a nuke so that he has actual leverage. It kinda doesn't matter if Redcloak secretly wants superiority, it's not up to him.

Unless he goes with Plan B (Thor's plan) which requires that talks to the Dark One and convinces the Dark One to stop The Plan in favor of collaborating with the other gods. This would actually give Redcloak more power since then he actually gets to dictate terms AND the other pantheons don't become hostages but collaborators with The Dark One.

However I think MoiMagnus has it right. The system of rewarding exp for kills is inheritly bad and inevitably leads to the situation the goblins (and many other races) live with. TBH I don't think any ending where those rules change can be counted as a happy ending.

I disagree. We see plenty of RPGS, some of them even with goblins in them, that utilize kills for EXP that don't have Goblins (or any race really) specifically as an EXP-farm. It gets dolled out to animals/basic monsters or gangs or cultists or something setting-fitting. Though Minrah did bring up something interesting and a further flaw. If the Snarl isn't contained and a new world is formed then everything Redcloak has worked for is pointless even if TDO survives the rift. After all, the world may, very well, simply not have goblins at all in it. It could be a Fallout style setting. Plus this also further invalidates his own position since he has no more frame of reference. For all he knows 80-90% of the prior worlds could have had it reversed and goblins were the dominate race and it's only just NOW that humans, elves, and dwarves are getting a chance at being equal. Course he doesn't know that since he doesn't likely believe Minrah at all in the first place, but it does poke another logical hole in his argument. For all we know this world could be the very first time humans weren't the generic punching bag XP farm monster and the very first time Goblins weren't the dominate race all kiss the boots of. It could even be legit-even across all the worlds and Redcloak just has the misfortune of being in one where Goblins get treated badly. Not to mention that, even if the next world does have 'Goblins', could those 'Goblins' be considered even remotely related to the Goblins of the current world? They may not even have a double-helix DNA structure!