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View Full Version : Seeking suggestions for Eberron without D&D



HappyDaze
2020-08-23, 10:01 AM
I recently stopped running a 5e Eberron game. Overall, I liked the setting, but felt that the rules didn't really mesh well with the setting. I wanted a game that explores strange lands, investigates ancient mysteries, weaves through the plots of inscrutable organizations, ponders the meaning of divine powers without any concrete proof of divine beings, dabbles in politics and nationalism (plus fantasy tribalism & racism), and a number of other things that D&D just doesn't do all that well (IMO).

I'm looking for another system that puts less emphasis on combat (and preferably will NEVER require me to fight out another combat-gridded map battle) and expands greatly on the social and exploration sides of Eberron. I want something where skills matter more and have better rules for using them. Bonus points if the game has rules covering running organizations both for and against PCs. I also want a game that doesn't have a setting too tightly bound into its rules, as that setting detail will likely have to be excised before I even begin adding in Eberron elements.

A few that I'm considering right now:

D6 Fantasy
Genesys (with magic from Realms of Terrinoth)
Dungeon Fantasy (GURPS-based, with a focus on D&D-like tropes)


I also looked at Earthdawn (3e) and, as much as I think the rules could handle it, I think it's too mechanically heavy and that those mechanics are too tightly tied to its inherent setting--meaning I'd have to disentangle them from everything Barsaive and then weave in everything Eberron, a big extra step I don't really want to take.

So, any suggestions or feedback?

Daracaex
2020-08-23, 12:32 PM
On the Manifest Zone podcast, several of the hosts run their Eberron games in Savage Worlds and mention it from time to time in conversation. I've never played it so some of the specifics went over my head, but you could give that a shot.

HappyDaze
2020-08-23, 12:42 PM
On the Manifest Zone podcast, several of the hosts run their Eberron games in Savage Worlds and mention it from time to time in conversation. I've never played it so some of the specifics went over my head, but you could give that a shot.

I forgot to mention Savage Worlds. I like it, but I have a couple of people in my group that just won't touch it for whatever reasons. I'm not sure it's best for covering the themes I want to explore in Eberron though, because it's still very much an action-centered ruleset. I want something that will stay Fun even when not always being Fast and Furious.

Segev
2020-08-23, 04:36 PM
While you’d have to avoid the exalted power level, there are elements you might like in the Exalted system. Without Charms, combat might run fluidly, too. Though it definitely is lethal.

HappyDaze
2020-08-23, 06:00 PM
While you’d have to avoid the exalted power level, there are elements you might like in the Exalted system. Without Charms, combat might run fluidly, too. Though it definitely is lethal.

I played Exalted 1e. Without Charms, I don't think the game really offers enough mechanical options for characters. It does have a lot of magitech artifacts though.

Segev
2020-08-23, 06:39 PM
I played Exalted 1e. Without Charms, I don't think the game really offers enough mechanical options for characters. It does have a lot of magitech artifacts though.

I'd look at 2e, and pick up Scroll of Heroes, which has options for mortals and god-blooded and mutants/wyld mutants/constructed races. You're right about options being limited, but you could potentially tweak thaumaturgy to be a little more accessible as "spellcasting," and if you assume PCs are enlightened, Terrestrial MA are open to them. Sorcery, too, if they want to go there. And, of course, artifacts.

One thing I would steal from 3e: Evocations. Artifacts then become excuses to essentially invent unique Charms that are specialized ways you use your artifacts.

This google doc (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Nn1hisQ4Z_ni9sP93byv0Odaz837_CXcgGxZwS42xEU/edit?usp=sharing) has some ideas for evocations that a Dynast had for a pair of hearthstone amulets that were a pair of earrings, and one that one of the two earring's newer owner has. I made them for NPCs related to a PC I was going to play in a game that sadly died in the middle of the first session.

This is well beyond the scope of what 3e allows for Evocations, but I think is a cool way to make Artifacts genuinely unique, encourage special backstories for them (to justify/inspire nifty evocations), and encourage PCs to consider them non-interchangeable. If the short daiklaive they have has a tree of Evocations associated with it that they've learned, it's irreplaceable, and they have to get that one back if it's lost or stolen. Possibly from somebody with similar, but differently unique Evocations they've developed with it.

HappyDaze
2020-08-23, 06:54 PM
I'd look at 2e, and pick up Scroll of Heroes, which has options for mortals and god-blooded and mutants/wyld mutants/constructed races. You're right about options being limited, but you could potentially tweak thaumaturgy to be a little more accessible as "spellcasting," and if you assume PCs are enlightened, Terrestrial MA are open to them. Sorcery, too, if they want to go there. And, of course, artifacts.

One thing I would steal from 3e: Evocations. Artifacts then become excuses to essentially invent unique Charms that are specialized ways you use your artifacts.

This google doc (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Nn1hisQ4Z_ni9sP93byv0Odaz837_CXcgGxZwS42xEU/edit?usp=sharing) has some ideas for evocations that a Dynast had for a pair of hearthstone amulets that were a pair of earrings, and one that one of the two earring's newer owner has. I made them for NPCs related to a PC I was going to play in a game that sadly died in the middle of the first session.

This is well beyond the scope of what 3e allows for Evocations, but I think is a cool way to make Artifacts genuinely unique, encourage special backstories for them (to justify/inspire nifty evocations), and encourage PCs to consider them non-interchangeable. If the short daiklaive they have has a tree of Evocations associated with it that they've learned, it's irreplaceable, and they have to get that one back if it's lost or stolen. Possibly from somebody with similar, but differently unique Evocations they've developed with it.

If I were going to do this, how is this better than the thread weaving in Earthdawn (a game that already has Disciplines that function similarly to classes and multiple races)?

I think that Exalted (and Earthdawn) suffers from having a system--more the magic system than the general task resolution--that is too tightly bound to the setting to smoothly handle the arcane magic, divine magic, and artifice of Eberron.

Segev
2020-08-23, 07:05 PM
If I were going to do this, how is this better than the thread weaving in Earthdawn (a game that already has Disciplines that function similarly to classes and multiple races)?

I think that Exalted (and Earthdawn) suffers from having a system--more the magic system than the general task resolution--that is too tightly bound to the setting to smoothly handle the arcane magic, divine magic, and artifice of Eberron.

Oh, sure. I don't know anything about Earthdawn. I recommended Exalted because it has - for good or ill - a system for running organizations. I didn't realize you wanted to hold onto the magic system of Eberron.

To be fair, the distinction between divine and arcane magic isn't too heavy in the mechanics, and could be done with any magic system. I don't really know how artifice works in Eberron; I haven't played with that side of it (though I have played in one session of a new game using Pathfinder set in Sharn that I'm quite excited about...but I'm not playing an artificer).

Sorry I don't have any better suggestions for you. Good luck!

Duff
2020-08-23, 10:51 PM
Fate could work. Depends a bit on what you mean by better rules for using skills. If you mean "Simpler" then this is your game. If you mean "More detailed" then of course, this will not be your game

Or maybe Burning Wheel. I've not played but one of my group wanted to get a game up so I had a read and created a character. So I'm not sure how well the skill system works, but combat was very specifically not mapped. Ranged combat has built in a mix of shooting and abstracted hiding and moving.
My memory was the setting was bit Lord of the Rings but I don't think you'd need to strip that out*, more decide how you wanted to add the "Tech" of Eberron.

* I say that, but the races do have a certain LOTRishness baked in - your elves will have to avoid slipping into despair, your orcs will rage and I'm pretty sure your dwarves will be fighting greed.

LibraryOgre
2020-08-23, 11:52 PM
A few that I'm considering right now:

D6 Fantasy
Genesys (with magic from Realms of Terrinoth)
Dungeon Fantasy (GURPS-based, with a focus on D&D-like tropes)



I like D6 Fantasy, but am not familiar enough with the others to comment on their suitability. I'm a fan of Savage Worlds, but you say downthread that someone in your group will not play it, so it's out of the question.

ETA: To develop a bit: D6 Fantasy is somewhat of the same situation as Dungeon Fantasy, though, IMO, with a slightly stronger ruleset... there's a lot you can incorporate from other D6 games, which might give you a leg up on creating more interesting races. D6 space, especially, could be interesting, using guidelines for alien races for things like Shifters, and guidelines for robots to create the Warforged. GURPS, of course, has a terribly deep field for this, already, if you've got the library to support it, but I like the play of D6 a bit better. You might also look at the newest release in the D6 line, Zorro: The Role-playing Game (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/302462/ZorroTM-The-Roleplaying-Game?affiliate_id=315505), which has some tweaks to the old classic.

Satinavian
2020-08-24, 12:51 AM
Splittermond could likely work but i guess you are limited to English games ?

HappyDaze
2020-08-29, 08:56 AM
Splittermond could likely work but i guess you are limited to English games ?

Yes, I'm limiting my search to English games. I've never even heard of Splittermond before you mentioned it.

Florian
2020-08-29, 09:47 AM
Yes, I'm limiting my search to English games. I've never even heard of Splittermond before you mentioned it.

It´s like this: The US/UK are the biggest and easiest market, with translations being cheap and simple. Any local system being able to hold its ground is vastly superior and proved to be so. In german-speaking countries, this would be DSA and SM, for their setting and rules.

HappyDaze
2020-08-29, 01:26 PM
It´s like this: The US/UK are the biggest and easiest market, with translations being cheap and simple. Any local system being able to hold its ground is vastly superior and proved to be so. In german-speaking countries, this would be DSA and SM, for their setting and rules.

I've heard of DSA, and I even own a few of their more recent English printings. I don't really think it would work all that well for Eberron, but there certainly may be more options available in German than what I've seen in the English products that could help. Still, as I don't speak German, that doesn't serve my purposes at all. As for SM, it's still virtually unknown to me. If there's an English version, I might give it a look, but otherwise, it's fairly meaningless to me.

Florian
2020-08-29, 01:46 PM
I've heard of DSA, and I even own a few of their more recent English printings. I don't really think it would work all that well for Eberron, but there certainly may be more options available in German than what I've seen in the English products that could help. Still, as I don't speak German, that doesn't serve my purposes at all. As for SM, it's still virtually unknown to me. If there's an English version, I might give it a look, but otherwise, it's fairly meaningless to me.

*Laugh*

Welcome to the rest of us. How do you think we handle it when something really cool in english, french or japanese comes up?

Segev
2020-08-29, 03:17 PM
*Laugh*

Welcome to the rest of us. How do you think we handle it when something really cool in english, french or japanese comes up?
By printing it really big and with lots of dots between the words so that it’s louder and slower? That’s how English is made into a universally-understood language, or so TV tells me!

Grod_The_Giant
2020-08-29, 04:05 PM
I'm looking for another system that puts less emphasis on combat (and preferably will NEVER require me to fight out another combat-gridded map battle) and expands greatly on the social and exploration sides of Eberron. I want something where skills matter more and have better rules for using them. Bonus points if the game has rules covering running organizations both for and against PCs. I also want a game that doesn't have a setting too tightly bound into its rules, as that setting detail will likely have to be excised before I even begin adding in Eberron elements.
My I suggest my Simple Tabletop Roleplaying System (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/268061/STaRS-The-Simple-Tabletop-Roleplaying-System)? It's a rules-light generic with a pulp-action heart that fits well with Eberron. I mention it mostly on the skill side-- instead of dedicated combat rules, STaRS uses a generic "conflict" system that can be used in virtually any circumstance where there's a back-and-forth flow between sides. In addition to the usual discussion of how to use it in combat, and the slightly less usual description of using it for social scenes, there's also an extended discussion of using it for "environmental conflicts"-- sort of like 4e's Skill Challenges, only more interactive.

Basically, you replace normal enemies with Goals-- things that you need to accomplish along the way. You could have just one big Goal ("escape the collapsing mine") or many smaller ones ("find the treasure, find the miners, restore the power, repair the elevator"), but they all have their own difficulty and their own health pool. You "attack" with whatever skill is most appropriate, with successes dealing "damage" just like rolling an attack to punch someone. When it's not your turn, the group is "attacked" by the environment once for every Goal they've yet to complete. The dangers can be literal and damage health tracks, or they can be more abstract and deplete a more abstract "health" track-- the collapsing mine might deal physical damage by dropping rocks on you, but if the conflict is "lost in the wilderness," the party might accumulate "damage" to a shared "Supplies" track, or have a simple "complete all goals within 5 rounds" timer.

As for organizations... in older drafts I suggested representing an organization or kingdom as a character, just with different ability scores-- "Economy" instead of strength, "Culture" instead of charisma, stuff like that-- and dealing with group-on-group action that way. The current version has solid mass combat rules that were... written purely through the lens of physical combat, admittedly, which is something I should probably change, but which could very easily be converted to slightly more abstract organizations.

GrayDeath
2020-08-29, 07:42 PM
If you want to focus on the pulpier, explorier parts of Eberron, and are in no way mechanically "bound" to have things like Dragonmarks, or truly great power differences, or somesuch, I would say that Savage Worlds is a good idea.

Aside from it being an Exploding dice system, which I ahte, and it being important to be VERY careful with bonuses, its easy to mould for pulpy fantasy.

If you are willing to divert rules from setting completely, try one of the more detailed FATE versions. Though the "Narraative makes it all move its way" phylosophy behind its rules is not for everybody.

You can of course always try GURPS, but...well, its GURPS and hence REALLY complex.

Or try palying Ebberron in a GOOD D&D edition, namely 3rd, for which it was written (unless you like bounded accuracy and leveling up not nevccessarily making you overall better, then....well it wont be your slice of cheese ^^).

I very much suggest not using any WoD Derivative unless its made for the setting you are playing, as its neither elegant nor fast nor particularly fine grained mechnaically.
Scion and Exalted make do by covering it in loads of "hey look how awesome I look" and make one ignore most of its flaws. ^^

HappyDaze
2020-08-30, 01:37 AM
Or try palying Ebberron in a GOOD D&D edition, namely 3rd, for which it was written (unless you like bounded accuracy and leveling up not nevccessarily making you overall better, then....well it wont be your slice of cheese ^^).


That's a definite No-Go. I played enough 3e/3.5e/PF to know I never want to go that way again. I'd even rather play Dungeon Fantasy, and I'm not much of a GURPS fan.

I was looking at the Genesys supplement Realms of Terrinoth and it occurred to me that dragonmarks could be represented with the Rune magic in it...only instead of having a rune shard item, the dragonmark would be an inherent rune shard. Otherwise, it already has Arcane (Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard), Divine (Cleric, Paladin), Primal (Druid, Ranger), and Verse (Bard) magics. I suppose that Rune is more likely intended to represent Artificer-type magic, so that's a possibility too with dragonmarks being limited spell-use through Talents.