Battle master Fighter Help Melee Tank

[blackjack50]

Gonna be the melee tank of the group. Going to be a Viking type Goliath. Wondering what kind of fighting style should I look at? Would be someone who probably rushes headlong into combat. What do I need to think about?

[stoutstien]

defense is boring but effective no matter what. more AC works better the more AC you have to start with.
protection starts strong but falls off quickly as you see more attacks and more competition for your actions
duelist is best increase of damage with fighters due to the number of attacks you get
two weapon fighting is the biggest increase in damage on a single attack but never scales
two handed is just bad even if you plan to use a big two handed weapon defense is better

[CTurbo]

If you plan on using a shield, Dueling is pretty good. Defense is still decent here.
If you plan on using a big 2 handed weapon, Defense is probably better than Great Weapon Fighter IMO
If you want to use 2 melee weapons, Two Weapon Fighter is a must.

[stoutstien]

If you want to use 2 melee weapons, Two Weapon Fighter is a must.

i don't know. it probably a little too good in the early game but realistically it maxes out at ~5 damage once per round and that is tied to your bonus action attack. two weapon fighting is nice for BM for having another chance to apply a maneuver with no feat cost but i can see the little boost of damage beating out +1 AC once you get extra attack.

[Delph]

I'm BM 4/Rogue 1 tank and it work awesome. It's not so great fun, as have others (casters, ranged) but as party we work supercool.

Stout Halfling (dex fighter, advantage on poison and half dmg from poison + reroll ones is cool). We have forge cleric - so I have adamantine halfplate +1 (from cleric blessing) and I found magic shield +1 and bought cloak of protection +1 -> AC 23. + Second chance feat (+1 DEX, and can reroll 1 attack per initiativ roll i can see)

My actions - go before enemies and take dodge. Rogue ranger + pure rogue take sneak, casters have free hands. When enemies try to hit me, they have disadvantege against 23 AC and when they are lucky and beat it, I use Second chance feat. - and use my manouver dices for riposte (sometimes with sneak)...

sometimes I'v got haste - I can attack, and use dodge in one round and have AC25...

[MeimuHakurei]

I'm BM 4/Rogue 1 tank and it work awesome. It's not so great fun, as have others (casters, ranged) but as party we work supercool.

Stout Halfling (dex fighter, advantage on poison and half dmg from poison + reroll ones is cool). We have forge cleric - so I have adamantine halfplate +1 (from cleric blessing) and I found magic shield +1 and bought cloak of protection +1 -> AC 23. + Second chance feat (+1 DEX, and can reroll 1 attack per initiativ roll i can see)

My actions - go before enemies and take dodge. Rogue ranger + pure rogue take sneak, casters have free hands. When enemies try to hit me, they have disadvantege against 23 AC and when they are lucky and beat it, I use Second chance feat. - and use my manouver dices for riposte (sometimes with sneak)...

sometimes I'v got haste - I can attack, and use dodge in one round and have AC25...

What do you do when enemies don't attack you?

[Mikal]

What do you do when enemies don't attack you?

Complain to the DM that their tank is being ignored, if they’re like the average player who posts about super high AC and no way to actually keep enemies near them. Instead of you know, actually building a true tank.

[Mikal]

Fighting style should be defensive. More important you’re going to want to get the PAM and Sentinel feats ASAP.

I’d also consider going cavalier instead of battlemaster. They’re much better at the tank roll, forcing the enemy to hit you vs others, EDIT: While battlemaster only gets goading attack, which is much more limited.

If you just rush in as with no way to actually stop the enemies from surging past you.... you aren’t a tank. You’re a speed bump.

[MeimuHakurei]

Fighting style should be defensive. More important you’re going to want to get the PAM and Sentinel feats ASAP.

I’d also consider going cavalier instead of battlemaster. They’re much better at the tank roll, forcing the enemy to hit you vs others.

If you just rush in as a battlemaster with no way to actually stop the enemies from surging past you.... you aren’t a tank. You’re a speed bump.

Battlemasters at least have Goading Attack to help control enemies. Still probably needs something extra to help control attacks but it's a start.

[stoutstien]

Battlemasters at least have Goading Attack to help control enemies. Still probably needs something extra to help control attacks but it's a start.

They also have menacing and maneuvering which is a solid tool box at 3rd level. Personally I think they work best as a ranged off tank but a SnB battle master isn't exactly lacking.

[Mikal]

Battlemasters at least have Goading Attack to help control enemies. Still probably needs something extra to help control attacks but it's a start.

I always forget about goading attack. Mea culpa. I'll make a change to my post.

[Man_Over_Game]

Complain to the DM that their tank is being ignored, if they’re like the average player who posts about super high AC and no way to actually keep enemies near them. Instead of you know, actually building a true tank.

It's a bit dependent on what the DM's combat style is like, but my experience from 5e says it's a lot more likely for a tank to die first than his allies.

And the winning strategy in 5e is to have your entire party lose % HP equally. So when the Tank hits 50% HP, so should the Wizard. This is because everyone fights at 100% until they hit 0 HP, so you want your party to stall someone hitting 0 HP for as long as possible.


So since the melee characters are much more likely to die, you'll want to focus on defensive features, with the occasional Taunt for when you're not being focused over someone else.

I'd recommend just investing in the occasional Goading Strike for the unlikely moment when you're being targeted, and then invest almost everything else (feats, fighting styles, etc) into defense that will be utilized in almost every fight.

The big reason Ancestral Guardians are more popular than the Cavalier, despite fulfilling similar roles, is because the Ancestral Guardian isn't limited to being a melee combatant (which forces the enemy into lose-lose positions), while the Cavalier just stands in front and doesn't really have any reason not to be attacked more than any other melee Fighter that the enemy would have attacked. Enemies generally don't need a reason to attack you that's more than just "you're 15 feet closer than the next guy", so there's no point in making yourself a more-preferable

[Joe the Rat]

Barbarians in are tanky because of reckless attack. You are giving enemies (and the DM) a direct mechanical reason (easier target) for going after you instead of your allies. On AG, it's carrot and stick.

[stoutstien]

Barbarians in are tanky because of reckless attack. You are giving enemies (and the DM) a direct mechanical reason (easier target) for going after you instead of your allies. On AG, it's carrot and stick.

Which doesn't make much sense. The barbarian may be easier to hit but it doesn't necessarily make them a better target. If a NPC has to choose to attack the barbarian with advantage and deal 1/2 damage(small % of total HP) or attack an adjacent target normally and deal full damage (much higher HP percentage) reckless isn't that big of a factor in the end.

[Snails]

i don't know. it probably a little too good in the early game but realistically it maxes out at ~5 damage once per round and that is tied to your bonus action attack. two weapon fighting is nice for BM for having another chance to apply a maneuver with no feat cost but i can see the little boost of damage beating out +1 AC once you get extra attack.

If one is going TWF, go really go TWF, and Fighting Style is a small price to pay.

That said, personally I am skeptical about going TWF at all, unless there is a readily available source of bonus damage, such as: Favored Enemy, Hunter's Mark, Sneak Attack (because the Rogue desperately needs to land one hit), Divine Smite, Rage.

I suppose that Superiority Dice do count as a source of bonus damage for a nova, but a Fighter is likely to Action Surge for this already. In the case of Action Surge, the advantage of Greatsword is all the greater.

[Man_Over_Game]

Which doesn't make much sense. The barbarian may be easier to hit but it doesn't necessarily make them a better target. If a NPC has to choose to attack the barbarian with advantage and deal 1/2 damage(small % of total HP) or attack an adjacent target normally and deal full damage (much higher HP percentage) reckless isn't that big of a factor in the end.

And whether or not someone has a mechanical reason to be targeted has much less emphasis to me (the DM) than a narrative one.

I might attack a Wizard, because I can tell that he's in girly robes and probably would fall over like wet cardboard from a good hit, and that seems pretty easy. Attacking a Barbarian less because he looks toughter (Rage) or more because he made a slight opening in his defense (Reckless Attack) isn't really going to change who I'm attacking all that much.

Unfortunately, players keep seeing the mechanics as part of the decision-making process of a DM, when that's rarely true.

Also unfortunately, WotC keeps insisting that it should be true by adding player options like Ancestral Guardian, Cavalier, Booming Blade and Sentinel, when really what the player tanks actually need are more things like Dodge.

How many times have you seen a creature melee attack someone other than the melee character, when that character was a valid target? That's how often Cavalier, Goading Strike, Ancestral Guardian are relevant (which is to say, never)

[ThatoneGuy84]

I mean, as a player if I'm playing a tank I try to make an effective one.
BM is a decently effective one, but I prefer other options, for fighter Cav feels nicer.

As for DMs that fight the tank and let the back line stand and shoot.

That happens so rarely anyways, I dont focus on "just tanking" like dodging ect. Unless I for example have been hasted aswell. When I DM unintelligent monsters might run in and fight the closest creature, sure. But a group of humanoid or intelligent monsters might just skirt around the full plate wearing guy that runs direct up, to attack the back end ranged chars. Or pull out a ranged option themselves and return fire on the range team, while staying away from the big bulky fighter.

[Delph]

I always forget about goading attack. Mea culpa. I'll make a change to my post.

than sentinel feat... but I'm too low lvl to get it all.

[stoutstien]

And whether or not someone has a mechanical reason to be targeted has much less emphasis to me (the DM) than a narrative one.

I might attack a Wizard, because I can tell that he's in girly robes and probably would fall over like wet cardboard from a good hit, and that seems pretty easy. Attacking a Barbarian less because he looks toughter (Rage) or more because he made a slight opening in his defense (Reckless Attack) isn't really going to change who I'm attacking all that much.

Unfortunately, players keep seeing the mechanics as part of the decision-making process of a DM, when that's rarely true.

Also unfortunately, WotC keeps insisting that it should be true by adding player options like Ancestral Guardian, Cavalier, Booming Blade and Sentinel, when really what the player tanks actually need are more things like Dodge.

How many times have you seen a creature melee attack someone other than the melee character, when that character was a valid target? That's how often Cavalier, Goading Strike, Ancestral Guardian are relevant (which is to say, never)

Aye. I like the concept of player options that encourage a party working together but I've never been satisfied with any of the pseudo taunts. I'd rather have more focus put on how each individual NPCs is seeing the world as the primary way players can try to control how they view the party. If it is canon that hobgoblins hate elfs then maybe the fighter can learn enough phrases in elvish to piss off some of the less disciplined hobgoblins or if they are religious zealots just having a prominent holy symbol could do it.
Goblins might focus on the person who look like they have the easiest stuff to grab and run away or maybe just the guy in plate because they like the sound of hitting it.
It's a pretty common complaint that DMs have that their players don't engaged in the game past killing, looting, and looking forward to mechanical advancement but at the same time present the game as a series of "use mechanic X or Y to move forward."

[opaopajr]

Outside of Archery any of the Styles will do honestly (and even then). :smalltongue:

The big thing about a tank is you gotta be a threat. You have to be enough of a disruption that you cannot be walked around and ignored. Worry less about being untouchable, more about bringing the pain strong, fast, hard, now!

(e.g. That's why a Cleric can tank with Bless -- opponents will go Concentration-roll-fishing to shut that boost down. That boost encourages multiple to strike "strong, fast, hard, now!")

Bring a variety of weaponry, including for two-weapon fighting, two-handed weapon, & shields. The Style is a bonus, the Fighter's strength is the weapon versatility and the capacity to take a good solid hit (d10 HD & Second Wind). Charge in contextually and lay down the pain.

(e.g. If your party's pain is mainly squishy magic users, don't be afraid of Protection Style and being an R-Type Pod hovering around your nuclear wizard soaking bullets each round as a Reaction. You launching javelins while penalizing incoming attacks each round on your nuke is teamwork as intended. :smallcool: Eventually attacks will come for you because things are easier with you out of the way. Ta-dah! Tankiness.)