Untyped Ability Score Loss

[ViperMagnum357]

There are some types of loss to ability scores that are not damage, drain, or penalties, and seem to be irrevocable once they happen. Con loss from rezing a level one character, aging, and a few odds and ends. Aging has some workarounds, but I was wondering if there was any general method besides DM fiat/Wish/Miracle.

I was theorycrafting when I was looking over the artifact creation rules in the Advanced Gamemaster's Guide; I am stumped how to offset the ability score loss because it explicitly cannot be prevented or healed by Miracle or Wish, and is not drain/damage or a penalty, but is a little nebulous beyond that. Can anyone think of a workaround? Some kind of reroll, replacement or substitution effect for your ability scores, including mental ones?

[Darg]

You could try temporary ability score bonuses. The reason you can't use this method on a resurrected person is that a corpse is considered an object and most magic ceases function. There is nothing in the general rules that says natural ability scores are reduced before temporary. The only example of ordering values implies temporary is reduced first, a.k.a. temporary hit points.

[Vaern]

The constitution loss for reviving a level 1 character is a substitute for permanent level loss. If you want to house rule a reasonable workaround, I'd recommend an experience buyoff for it. Instead of advancing to level 2, pay 1000 XP to regain the con that you lost to the resurrection.

[Zanos]

Changing yourself into a new species via Savage Species rituals, True Mind Switch, and Polymorph And Object should all be workarounds.

[Kayblis]

Yeah, some kinds of ability reduction(like from resurrection) are pretty permanent. The workarounds usually involve changing bodies, which is more "throw it away and get a new one" than actually fixing it, but tbh your original body probably didn't have anything irreplaceable in the first place. Most mid-high op tactics involve getting a better body at least temporarily.

These work because when you're resurrected, you don't recieve a "Permanent -2 Con effect", you actually lose the score and there's nothing attached to you. So as Zanos cited, True Mind Switch and changing races works fine. Losing the score entirely also gets rid of the problem, usually by turning Undead or Construct, but that's less of a fix and more of a character remake. I wouldn't bet on PAO because it's pretty much banned on all tables and brings more problems than it solves, but it's also a workaround.

[ViperMagnum357]

Thanks for the replies-on a hunch, I did some digging and found another workaround-a custom item of continuous Magic Jar should insulate your physical ability scores for the duration of the work period, though the RAW is a bit tortured there.

That leaves mental ability scores; there is a Elixir of Life minor artifact in the first Castle Maure adventure from Dungeon magazine. It grants eternal life at the cost of sapping physical ability scores eventually down to 1, but it is explicitly an aging effect and there are plenty of ways around those. It allows you to continue increasing your mental scores every couple hundred years; waiting out a couple millennia to get back where you started can be a problem, but this was mostly an NPC question, so the uncapped effect can just be fixed via DM fiat. Not a perfect solution, but it allows for someone to craft a bunch of artifacts without being rendered useless forever.

[Zanos]

You shouldn't need a custom magic jar item, the spell lasts 1/hour per level already. Caster level increases, extend spell, or just multiple castings of it should all take care of business.

How are you making yourself immune to aging penalties? In 3.5 the only way I know how to do that is timeless body, which only applies if you're a monk or a druid. Or maybe reincarnate.

[ViperMagnum357]

You shouldn't need a custom magic jar item, the spell lasts 1/hour per level already. Caster level increases, extend spell, or just multiple castings of it should all take care of business.

How are you making yourself immune to aging penalties? In 3.5 the only way I know how to do that is timeless body, which only applies if you're a monk or a druid. Or maybe reincarnate.

Crafting would be 150 days before any reductions, and I think allowing a lapse would disqualify the workaround. And I was going to grab Timeless Body from some monk PRC I dug up in a third party book, so that was not an issue. I just needed Timeless Body specifically instead of the other workarounds like Wedded to History so the bonuses would still accrue, and this character needed to not be a Dragon, so no Dragonwrought.

[Doctor Despair]

You shouldn't need a custom magic jar item, the spell lasts 1/hour per level already. Caster level increases, extend spell, or just multiple castings of it should all take care of business.

How are you making yourself immune to aging penalties? In 3.5 the only way I know how to do that is timeless body, which only applies if you're a monk or a druid. Or maybe reincarnate.

Using Magic Jar twice technically makes it permanent as well, right? As you use the first casting to go from Body A to Body B, the second casting to go from B to Body C, then the first expires, returning the person from B to A, and then the second expires, returning you from C to B, leaving:

You (A, from Body A) in Body B

B in Body C

C in Body A

Then, you could put your original body in quintessence until you choose to return to it, if ever, and repeat this trick as many times as you like to avoid the physical penalties of aging. Eventually, I suppose you'd get the mental benefits of aging, but avoid the penalties, right?

Edit: Actually, a better chassis for this is Mind Switch. Mind Switch is a lot less complicated than Magic Jar. Magic Jar is weird.

With Magic Jar, you go from Body A to the jar.

Then, you go to Body B, and B goes in the jar.

Then, you go from Body B to a second jar.

Then, you go from the jar to Body C, and C goes in that second jar. You are in C with two magic jar'd souls next to you and two vacant bodies. Now there's some weirdness. In the context of the spell, your body is the body where you cast the spell, so without a reference to "original body" or something similar, there's not much of a case for everyone to automatically go where they are "supposed" to go (i.e. their original bodies). That leaves us with these readings:


Spell 1 ends. B wants to return to "its body". Which is its body? In the context of Spell 1, that could mean the body you are in or Body B. Let's say Body B.. Your soul wants to return to Body A, so you do. Then Spell 2 ends. C wants to return to its body, Body C, but your soul wants to return to body B... so you end up as roommates, sharing a body. Do you shunt them out? Are you a DIY Chronotyrm? This is weird. Removing B's magic just just kills Body B instead of leaving it vacant for you, so that's a problem, too.



That is clearly a dysfunction, so let's read it the other way: your soul wants to return to the body where you cast the spell, but the magic jar soul wants to return to the body you're in. So Spell 1 ends, putting you in Body A and B in Body C; maybe Body B dies? Then, Spell 2 ends, putting you in Body B (if it's alive, or just killing you if it's not?) and C in Body A. This either kills you, or leaves you in B, or has you entering a dead body and... reanimating it maybe? Each of these seem like fairly valid readings, so it's a weird one. Lots of DM fiat. Removing magic jars just kills more bodies and doesn't actually solve anything.



Another option would be for the second casting of Magic Jar to sustain Body B beyond B's death. In that way, if you moved the magic jar from the first casting out of range, then the first casting ending would return you to Body A (killing the soul of B), and the second spell ending would put you Body B, and C in either A or C depending on DM fiat, killing the spare body. Would Body C survive being vacant of a soul after the first casting? I don't know that there are hard mechanics that would render it dead outside of the language of the spell...


Regardless, Mind Switch is a lot simpler, as it doesn't straight up kill anyone and complicate things. A swaps into Body B, and then swaps into Body C, leaving B in Body A and C in Body B.


If the DM rules that Mind Switch returns the soul in the caster's body to their original vessel and the caster to their original vessel, then Cast 1 ending returns A to A and B to B, but... then what happens to C? Do they just disappear? There's no mechanic to put them back in their home. B and C are weird soul roommates, so this is a dysfunction without RAI to fix it. Additionally, cast 2 never saw Body A at all. It has to be something else.



If the DM rules that Mind Switch returns the soul in the caster's body (at the time of casting) to their original vessel, basically just swapping the two bodies involved in the power regardless of the soul in them, then Cast 1 ending returns C (in B) to A and B (in A) to B, then Cast 2 ending returns A (in C) to B, and B (in B) to C, leaving everyone one to the left of where they started. No worries about sustaining life without a soul, or anything like that.



If the DM rules that Mind Switch returns the caster's soul to their original vessel regardless of which body they're currently in, then Cast 1 ends, returning A to A and B to... C, it would seem. Then, Cast 2 ends, returning A to A (where we already were), and... C lives out their life in Body B, and B in Body C. In that way, you'd have to hire another psion to do the trick for you, but it would work, and the psion even gets to keep their original body.



If the DM rules that Mind Switch returns the caster's soul to the body where they cast the spell regardless of the body they're currently in, we don't even need three people; we can do it with two. If mind switch tracks by body, then we can use the caster and one other person to swap twice. The first casting would expire, but as A is already back in A, nothing would happen. Then, the second casting would expire, swapping B and A permanently.


Magic Jar has readings where double castings kills you to solve the weirdness. Mind Switch, at least, only has two outcomes: weirdness, or your ideal, permanent swap. Maybe I read Magic Jar wrong, as iirc I read people saying it can swap you permanently, but it seems like it requires a pretty specific reading to get to that conclusion.

[Darg]

The way I read magic jar is that any newly inhabited body isn't yours. When the first spell ends, following the description of the spell, you return to your body. Even if you cast it multiple times, your body is still lifeless just as the description states.

The same thing happens with mind switch. It'll force all the other minds into your body ceding control to the latest recipient leaving body B without a mind. When the the first cast ends it reverses what happened in the first casting: caster returns to body A and body B now has a mind leaving body C without a mind and mind C in control of your body as the second cast isn't over.

[Doctor Despair]

The way I read magic jar is that any newly inhabited body isn't yours. When the first spell ends, following the description of the spell, you return to your body. Even if you cast it multiple times, your body is still lifeless just as the description states.


It doesn't specify "original body" in that sense, but Magic Jar is a mess anyway, haha



The same thing happens with mind switch. It'll force all the other minds into your body ceding control to the latest recipient leaving body B without a mind. When the the first cast ends it reverses what happened in the first casting: caster returns to body A and body B now has a mind leaving body C without a mind and mind C in control of your body as the second cast isn't over.

There is absolutely no mechanism for Mind Switch to leave someone without a mind. If Mind Switch works the way you're suggesting, what would happen is you end up in C's body after two uses, and B and C both occupy A's body at the same time -- a dysfunction, which we can avoid by not reading "your body" as "your natural-born body."

[Darg]

It doesn't specify "original body" in that sense, but Magic Jar is a mess anyway, haha



There is absolutely no mechanism for Mind Switch to leave someone without a mind. If Mind Switch works the way you're suggesting, what would happen is you end up in C's body after two uses, and B and C both occupy A's body at the same time -- a dysfunction, which we can avoid by not reading "your body" as "your natural-born body."

What do you mean? The fact that it says "your body" means your body should be obvious and it makes the interactions really simple to understand and follow. If a body doesn't have a mind, it can only ever be mindless. You could also say that because that you are a target only the most recent casting actually applies unlike magic jar. The other alternative is that the newest inhabitant of your body forces out the old inhabitant which is free to return to their body. These all seem much more logical than making an assumption that changes the meaning of the power in a way it most likely wasn't meant to be.

[Doctor Despair]

What do you mean? The fact that it says "your body" means your body should be obvious and it makes the interactions really simple to understand and follow. If a body doesn't have a mind, it can only ever be mindless. You could also say that because that you are a target only the most recent casting actually applies unlike magic jar.

"Your body" does not naturally read as "your original body." There are tons of personal spells that change your body; based on your reading, they would change your original body regardless of distance, LOS, or LOE. If you Mind Switch, then cast Dragonshape, your original body rears up at a beast! Rawr! More seriously, that's just not how those spells work.

Mind Switch puts your mind in a body, and puts the mind in that body into your body. Based on your reading, the first use swaps you and B. The second use puts you into C's body, and puts B and C in the same body. Mind Switch doesn't mention what happens then because it's a dysfunction based on an ill-advised interpretation.

I don't think it's unreasonable, RAW or RAI, that the second use should swap you, in B's body, with C. When the first cast ends, what happens next is up for debate. Again, if we, to avoid a reading that puts two minds in one body, use "your body" as "the body you were in when you used the power," you'd return to A and B would go to C's body. Then, when the second use ends, you'd return to B's body and C would go to A's body. That's, I think, the most natural reading of the ability, as it seems that it's supposed to register the caster's mind to some extent, targets the creature instead of their body, etc

Edit:


The other alternative is that the newest inhabitant of your body forces out the old inhabitant which is free to return to their body. These all seem much more logical than making an assumption that changes the meaning of the power in a way it most likely wasn't meant to be.

I didn't catch your edit there. There's no provision in Mind Switch for moving any mind other than your mind and the mind of the creature you targeted. B and C would occupy the same body; neither one would "kick out" the other, as no effect allows them to do so. It is a dysfunction, and you could "correct" it with houserules by booting the former mind to the empty body, but it's much simpler to just not interpret "your body" that way

[Darg]

If the spell requires your body, has a range of personal, and you don't have the physical component of your body within range then you can't cast the spell. Or it simply doesn't work. It's a very reasonable interpretation.


Based on your reading, the first use swaps you and B. The second use puts you into C's body, and puts B and C in the same body. Mind Switch doesn't mention what happens then because it's a dysfunction based on an ill-advised interpretation.

It doesn't have to mention it. There's already rules in place when multiple controllers fight over the actions of what is being controlled.


Multiple Mental Control Effects

Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as a spell that removes the subjects ability to act. Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.

Because of this, it seems much simpler to use the obvious strict meaning that doesn't rely on the assumption that a possessed body is your own.

Either way, the powers and spells could be read both ways legally based on the language used and the lack of a failsafe.

[Doctor Despair]

If the spell requires your body, has a range of personal, and you don't have the physical component of your body within range then you can't cast the spell. Or it simply doesn't work. It's a very reasonable interpretation.


I disagree. Bodies aren't physical components, and I absolutely disagree that a natural reading would add the text "you can't use personal spells or powers like Iron Body" to Mindswitch. When all those spells refer to "your body," they are clearly referring to the body you occupy when you cast the spell. If we extend the same reading to mindswitch, it functions as a permanent swap if used twice.



It doesn't have to mention it. There's already rules in place when multiple controllers fight over the actions of what is being controlled.



Because of this, it seems much simpler to use the obvious strict meaning that doesn't rely on the assumption that a possessed body is your own.

Either way, the powers and spells could be read both ways legally based on the language used and the lack of a failsafe.

Having two minds in one body is not rendering a creature under the mental control of two other creatures; both creatures occupy the body. It is categorically different than those two creatures trying to Dominate a third creature, who would try to follow both their orders according to that text. To my knowledge, there's no equivalent effect that puts two minds in one body except the Chronotyrm who gets double actions. Even Fusion has one person explicitly give up control to the other for the duration to avoid this conflict. To be honest, being able to put two minds in one body is probably way more abusable than a situational True Mindswitch.

On that note, true mind switch offers some text that should clarify this a bit further



Your “natural” body is always considered to be the last one you switched out of. If you exchange bodies with a chain of multiple subjects, you need worry only about the welfare of the last body you switched with. In other words, if your mind is expelled from your current body, your mind returns to the last body you switched with, not to your original body.


Granted, that's in the superior version of the spell, but it's the only text I'm aware of to clarify what happens when you swap minds multiple times in this way. With that precedent of how they writers wanted similar effects to work, and given the dysfunction that results if you read it the other way (two minds in one body with no rules or mechanics to kick one out), I just can't see a reasonable reading the way you're suggesting.

[Darg]

They had to specify in True Mind Switch because the effect is permanent. It should also serve as further evidence that your body in mind switch is the original because it wasn't specified enough that they could skip the clarification that the previous body was the natural body. This means when all is said and done you return to your original body no matter what happens after all the durations play out as there is nothing powering your removal anymore.

Even if what you are saying is the order of events, there is still the clause of when you return to your body it ends the power and returns the other mind to their body. After the first cast runs out, you return to your body ending all casts and all minds return to their body. That is much more logical than you getting stuck in another's body without some force acting to keep it that way considering the power has a duration, unlike True Mind Switch. This means using the power twice is not permanent.

[Doctor Despair]

They had to specify in True Mind Switch because the effect is permanent. It should also serve as further evidence that your body in mind switch is the original because it wasn't specified enough that they could skip the clarification that the previous body was the natural body. This means when all is said and done you return to your original body no matter what happens after all the durations play out as there is nothing powering your removal anymore.


Alternatively, they clarified in the spell, as you said, because they felt it was more likely to be relevant for the permanent duration effect than the temporary one. This means, when all is said and done, you return to the body where you manifested the power.



Even if what you are saying is the order of events, there is still the clause of when you return to your body it ends the power and returns the other mind to their body. After the first cast runs out, you return to your body ending all casts and all minds return to their body. That is much more logical than you getting stuck in another's body without some force acting to keep it that way considering the power has a duration, unlike True Mind Switch. This means using the power twice is not permanent.

That clause only activates if you end the power yourself. It doesn't describe what happens when the duration runs out. Therein lies the problem with your criticism. You are right that manually ending the power before its duration expires should return all minds you've mind switched with to their "own bodies," which should be their original body unless you used extra castings to further conflate the issue. Again, their own body, in the context of the power, is the body they were in when you manifested the power.

I would say the only sure-fire way to ensure folks return to their original body would be to do a targeted dispel psionics on the manifester's mind. That would end all the mind switches they are party to and return their participants to explicitly their "original bodies." However, dispelling just one of the non-manifester participants could create a situation where two creatures -- not including the manifester -- share the same body again, providing the power links to the manifester's mind and not the two bodies involved in the mind switch. Fun, more dysfunction

[Darg]

If a power ends the effect ends. It doesn't simply resolve itself in a way other than unmaking the phenomena created. You would return to your body and the other mind would return to theirs.

The way the return clause was written doesn't necessitate that the action is the cause for the ejection. The structure of the sentence is flawed. The comma is completely unnecessary and improper. However, due to the pause in the sentence the referenced subject isn't so concrete. It can now be either the action or the result. If the pause wasn't there then it could only have ever referenced the action


You can move your mind back into your own body whenever you desire, which returns the subject’s mind to its own body and ends the power.

You can move your mind back into your own body whenever you desire which returns the subject’s mind to its own body and ends the power.

You can move your mind back into your own body whenever you desire; which returns the subject’s mind to its own body and ends the power.

Thanks to a syntax error the actual intent of the sentence is obfuscated depending on how it is read. I'm not trying to nitpick. It's just how I read the sentence.

At this point the whole thing is house rule territory.


Same Effect with Differing Results

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

This rule is the last thing I can bring up to bring pre-existing rules into the discussion. It doesn't exactly fit as WotC sure loves the word irrelevant. Seriously, any other word would have been a much more precise instruction. It does give the possibility that the first effect is null while the second is in effect. This would provide a quick and easy resolution to the situation. It would be no less jarring than only one target walking into an anti-psionic field.

[Jay R]

The above discussion makes clear that the rule can be read in more than one way.

That makes this a judgment call for the DM.

In my game, using a spell twice will not be sufficient to get around the time limit. When the magic jar spells are all ended, everybody goes home.

[Particle_Man]

I once used the fact that my DM and I were rarely on the same page WRT rules interpretations to make sure I had nothing to do with solving a "three card monte" Magic Jar situation involving a Mind Flayer, and let other players that were more on the DM's wavelength do all the thinking it through. I was right on my hunch, as I would have guessed wrong on how to destroy the Mind Flayer's Mind.