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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Other Warlock Pacts (Utility ACFs)



NigelWalmsley
2020-08-23, 10:51 PM
The 3e Warlock gets a pair of pretty odd abilities: Deceive Item and Imbue Item. The rest of the class is pretty standard as far as madmen tainted by infernal power go, getting abilities that make you more like a demon or let you do traditionally Warlock-y things like shoot blasts of baleful energy or raise the dead to serve you. But then your big impactful abilities are about making and using magic items. It's not wrong per se, but it does leave a bit to be desired. A Warlock really ought to be calling up demons or learning the secrets of Lovecraftian Great Old Ones.

Fortunately, later editions sorted this out, with Warlocks getting different pacts that gave them different abilities. I won't claim that I'm really back-porting anything here, as the abilities Warlocks get in 4e and 5e for their pacts are a little more combat-focused than I think is appropriate for what I'm looking to replace, and many of the pacts (such as 4e's Vestige Pact) cover things that are separate classes in 3e (in that case, the Binder). The 5e ones are also a good deal more specific than I think is appropriate. Writing up a Kraken patron is all well and good, but what about the Warlocks who get their magic from Naga or the Leviathan? I've opted for more general pacts, with the understanding that it would be entirely reasonable to write up specific pacts for particular Demon Lords or other creatures of power if you wanted their Warlocks to be a central part of a campaign.

Mechanically, each Pact is an alternate class feature that replaces the Deceive Item and Imbue Item abilities and gives abilities at each level where the Warlock gains access to a new grade of invocations (that is, 1st, 6th, 11th, and 16th). An astute observer will note that this is more stuff than the Warlock is giving up. This is entirely intentional, as the Warlock as-written is not very good, and deserves some extra love (I might write up a more detailed fix, or at least a boatload of new invocations, at some point).

People coming from 5e may expect these to be like the Patrons, but they aren't intended to be. It's not necessarily the case that the Warlock is getting their power "from" anyone in particular. In many cases, the "Pact" represents an acquisition of knowledge, or being granted access to a source of power, rather than any ongoing relationship. At best, it might be appropriate for a pact to grant a Contact (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/contacts.htm) who passes along opportunities and requests.

Without further ado, the pacts:

Death

Throughout history, countless magical secrets have been discovered, hoarded, and taken to their inventor's grave. Necromancy being what it is, those secrets aren't always as lost as some might want to think. Many Warlocks rise to power on the back of the ancient lore held by Lich Queens, Vampire Lords, or Ghost Princes. Some of these were even Warlocks in life, passing on their knowledge in a twisted sort of apprenticeship. Others employ magic like speak with dead to learn of these forgotten magics without needing to consort with unliving horrors, or simply plunder the tombs of ancient mages. Regardless of the source of their power, those who follow this path inevitably surrender to the temptation of eternal unlife.

Rebuke Undead: At 1st level, the Warlock gains the Rebuke Undead ability of a Cleric of his level.
Spell-Stitched Rebirth: At 6th level, the Warlock engraves runes upon his flesh, passing into undeath and gaining arcane power. He gains the Necropolitan and Spell-Stitched templates. Neither template effects his ECL, and he pays no XP cost to become a Necropolitan. Unlike a normal Spell-Stitched creature, he gains new spells if his Wisdom score changes, and cannot use any SLAs that are of higher level than the spells that a Bard of his level could cast.
Spell-Stitched Reanimation: At 11th level, the Warlock refines the techniques he used to become undead, and begins to apply them to his own creations. Any undead he creates (typically by use of the the dead walk invocation) gains the Spell-Stitched template, and its Wisdom score is treated as being four higher for the purposes of determining what kind of SLAs it is entitled to.
Greater Undeath: At 16th level, the Warlock elevates himself to one of the greater forms of undead. He may replace the Necropolitan template with another template that is acquired, changes the base creature's type to undead, and has a CR adjustment of +2 or less. He retains the Spell-Stitched template, even if the new template somehow renders him ineligible. As previously, this template does not effect his ECL.

Depths

The sea is vast, powerful, and full of secrets. Naturally, many are tempted to turn those secrets to their own ends. Most die. Drowned, killed by storms, or eaten by the beasts of the sea. But enough survive to tempt more to try. Warlocks who have dived beneath the waves to uncover the secrets of sunken cities, ancient sea monsters, or the gods of the depths find that they soon become more at home in the sea than on land. Such spellcasters are prized among seafaring cultures, their ability to foresee and eventually control the weather excusing a great deal of eccentricity.

Embraced by the Waves: At 1st level, the Warlock is equally comfortable in or out of water. He can breath air or water with equal ease, and can swim or walk at whichever of his two speeds are higher.
Eye of the Storm: At 6th level, the Warlock can walk unimpeded through storms of all sorts. He may ignore the effects of wind, and is immune to sonic or electric effects caused by storms. This includes storms called by magic, but not other magical effects. He can predict the weather with perfect accuracy a number of days in advance equal to his Warlock level.
Secrets of the Sea: At 11th level, the Warlock is as ageless as the sea, and knows of all who have touched its waters. He may perform an hour-long ritual requiring complete immersion in seawater, which replicates the effect of legend lore. This ritual inflicts 1d6 damage to each of his mental ability scores, and in any month where he performs it, he does not age.
Call the Storm: At 16th level, the Warlock gains the power over the great oceanic tempests. He may replicate the effects of control weather (he is treated as a Druid for this purpose). Changing the weather is a free action, but changes do not manifest for 15 minutes after the decision. He can also call lightning, as the call lightning storm ability, though there is no limit to the number of bolts he can call, and he can call each as a swift action.

Dragonmark

Magical abilities often manifest in bloodlines. The most famous examples of this are the Dragonmarks. Most who bear them have little interest in finding out how they work, preferring to instead spend their time exploiting the gifts they've been given for profit. Some, however, instead seek to master the secrets of the Marks. Most learn little beyond a few tricks for using their mark more efficiently, but others uncover truths about these powers that many feel are better off hidden.

Special: The Warlock must have a dragonmark to chose this ACF. Either a true dragonmark or an aberrant one is sufficient.
Special: Levels in Dragonmark Heir (ECS), Heir of Siberys (ECS), and Aberrant Heir (Web Enhancement) stack with Warlock levels for determining which abilities the Warlock gains. For example, a Warlock 4/Dragonmark Heir 2 would gain Dual Mark. Dragonmark Heir and Aberrant Heir also provide new invocations and improved eldritch blast damage as if the character had gained a level in Warlock.
Special: A Warlock with this pact does not count as having a dragonmark for the purposes of qualifying for the Heir of Siberys prestige class. If he does take levels in Heir of Siberys, he must select the same mark for that prestige class as he does for his feats. Mutable Mark changes the powers granted by Heir of Siberys.

Extra Mark: At 1st level, the Warlock's connection to his dragonmark deepens. Once per day, he may use one of its abilities after expending all the daily uses he is normally entitled to.
Dual Mark: At 6th level, the Warlock's insight into the nature of dragonmarks reveals to him a profound symmetry between true and aberrant dragonmarks. If he has a true dragonmark, he gains an aberrant dragonmark. If he has an aberrant dragonmark, he gains a true dragonmark. He gains whatever feats he has for the other type of dragonmark as bonus feats (for example, if he has the Least and Less Marks of Making, he gains Aberrant Dragonmark and Lesser Aberrant Dragonmark as bonus feats). As he gains additional feats, he gains additional bonus feats as well.
Mutable Mark: At 11th level, the Warlock learns to change the nature of his marks, sometimes warping his flesh to do so.By performing a one-hour ritual, he may change the type of his true dragonmark. This replaces all his dragonmark feats (Least Dragonmark, Lesser Dragonmark, Greater Dragonmark, Dragonmark Prodigy, Dragonmark Adept, and Dragonmark Visionary). He may also choose new abilities for his Aberrant Mark, and his Siberys Mark if he possesses one. Other feats are not changed, and may become useless until he regains the appropriate mark. If the new mark he has selected requires a different race, he is effected as if by a reincarnate spell, though he does not lose a level, and the race is always one suitable to the new mark (if multiple races are possible, choose one at random). Once he performs the ritual, he may not do so again until the next time the sun rises or sets.
Dragonmark Brand: At 16th level, the Warlock has learned to mark others, gaining control over them in the process. A target that fails a Will save is dominated (as by dominate person). They also gain a dragonmark for which they are eligible, or an aberrant mark if they are not of a race that normally manifests dragonmarks. The Warlock chooses which mark they manifest, and what SLAs they gain. They gain the Least Dragonmark (or Aberrant Dragonmark) feat as a bonus feat, and gain the Lesser Dragonmark (or Lesser Aberrant Dragonmark) feat as a bonus feat if they have at least 6 hit dice, and gain the Greater Dragonmark (or Greater Aberrant Dragonmark) feat as a bonus feat if they have at least 9 hit dice. They gain these feats only if they do not already have them. This ability may be used three times per day, the Warlock may have no more than three targets currently dominated, and may not dominate a target who's CR is greater than his character level minus four.

Elements

Most interactions between mortals and genies are transient. Wishes granted for freedom, in trade, or simply on a whim. But there are stories of those who came away from the genies with more. Not some temporary boon or magical working, but real and lasting power. It's unclear weather this power is something anyone could wish for, or if it represents a deeper relationship. Some claim these individuals are genie outcasts, stripped of the bulk of their powers and forced to wander among mortals. Others hold that this state is a punishment for mortals who's wishes overstepped the bounds set by the genies, or that these Warlocks have simply managed to tap into whatever power source the genies draw their strength from.

Endure Elements: At 1st level, the Warlock may use endure elements at will.
Create Food and Water: At 6th level, the Warlock may use create food and water three times per day. Unlike the normal spell, he may create food of any quality, and may create drinks other than water.
Heart of the Elements: At 11th level, the Warlock's earth is replaced with a seed of elemental power. He is permanently under the effects of heart of air, heart of water, heart of earth, and heart of water (including the fortification effect for having all four active at once). If he expends one of the effects, the fortification effect is correspondingly reduced, and it returns the next time the sun rises or sets. If he is killed while at least one heart effect is active, he is restored to life (without level loss, as if by true resurrection) the next time the sun rises or sets. Destroying or removing the seed is sufficient to prevent this effect.
Gift of the Genie: At 16th level, the Warlock gains access to a more limited version of the signature power of the genies: the granting of wishes. Three times per week, he may replicate the effect of limited wish to fulfill a request made by a non-genie creature other than himself.

Fae

Many Warlocks appeal to the fey for their power. While the stories of children wandering into the woods and returning with terrible gifts of Mab or Oberon are largely exaggerated, even stumbling upon a dryad grove, nymph's pool, or satyr revel can be a path to tremendous magical power. Provided, that is, you can convince the fae you are worthy of their attention, and survive receiving it. Most who follow this path become simple hedge witches (in many cultures, "witch" refers almost exclusively to fae-sworn Warlocks), but the truly powerful among them find themselves drawn into the otherworldly machinations of the great courts.

Forest Tongue: At 1st level, the Warlock gains the ability to speak to plants and animals (as the spells speak with plants and speak with animals).
Witch's Brew: At 6th level, the Warlock gains Brew Potion as a bonus feat. He may craft potions (and oils) of any spell of level less than or equal to 1/3 his Warlock level, regardless of whether he knows it or not. These spells must still meet the typical requirements for being brewed into potions (such as being of no greater than 3rd level, or not having Personal range). He does not have to pay the GP cost to create potions in this way, and receives a pool of XP equal to five times his level. This pool replenishes each week, but does not accumulate. If he gains a level, 5 points are added to the pool, but it does not replenish.
Fey Form: At 11th level, the Warlock himself becomes a Fey creature. His type changes to Fey, he no longer ages, and he may use Disguise Self, Silent Image, Minor Image, and Major Image at will. He may concentrate on a number of magical effects equal to one half his Warlock level at the same time (rounded down).
Fey Mantle: At 16th level, the Warlock captures the powers of the great faerie courts. He chooses one of the following sets of domains, and may use each spell from them a Cleric of his level could cast as a spell-like ability once per day:



Seelie
Creation (SpC), Fire, Plant, Sun


Unseelie
Air, Cold (SpC), Darkness (SpC), Trickery



The Warlock does not gain any granted powers for these domains.

Additionally, the Warlock can no longer permanently die. In the event that he is killed, he is restored to life (without level loss, as if by true resurrection) in the seat of the appropriate fae court the next time the sun rises or sets there. Binding the Warlock's soul, or powerful magic (a wish spell is sufficient) prevents this, as does successfully severing his connection to the fey.

Fiendish

When it comes to the trade of souls for power, few do more business than the fiends. Among every people of the world, there are those desperate enough for power to accept even the most terrible of prices. Contrary to popular expectation, these are not all howling madmen, or fools seduced by false promises of power. Many who offer up their souls do so with eyes open, believing their cause important enough to be worth risking everything for. Of course, many of these stories end in tragedy nonetheless, with victorious Warlocks defeating invading armies only to inflict back the cruelties their people suffered tenfold, calling up demonic servants to extract a terrible revenge on those who have wronged them.

Fell Fortune: At 1st level, the Warlock gains a taste of the devil's own luck. Once per day per four Warlock levels, he may reroll any d20 roll he makes. Using this ability is a free action, and he may wait until after the result of the roll is determined before using this ability, though he may not use it more than once on the same roll.
Familiar: At 6th level, the Warlock gains a familiar. This is identical to the Wizard ability, except that it scales with his caster level, and any familiar he acquires has the Fiendish template. If he gains the Improved Familiar feat, that familiar is also Fiendish (even if it is of a type to which the Fiendish template cannot normally be applied).
Call Fiend: At 11th level, the Warlock gains the ability to summon up allies from the lower planes. This ability is similar to planar binding, except that any creature summoned must be an Outsider or Magical Beast with the Evil and Extraplanar subtypes, it has no HD limit, and he cannot summon a creature who's CR is greater than his character level minus four (for example, an 11th level Warlock could summon a Succubus, but could not summon a Bone Devil). The summoning ritual takes an hour, and automatically replicates the effects of both an appropriate magic circle and, if necessary, a dimensional anchor. He may not have more than one creature summoned with this ability at a time, and when used he may not use it again until the next time the sun rises or sets.
Demon Lord: At 16th level, the Warlock ascends to the title of Demon Lord (or an analogous position in some other fiendish hierarchy if he prefers). His type changes to Outsider and he gains the Evil subtype. He no longer ages. He gains access to a demiplane, whose traits such as size, composition, structure, and actual planar traits he may determine within reason. He may plane shift there at will, and designate a specific arrival point on the plane for that ability. He may populate this demiplane with creatures he can summon with his Call Fiend ability. If he would die outside the demiplane, he is instead recalled there by his plane shift ability, his hit points are restored to full, and freed of any negative effect that could be removed by a heal spell. Magic that prevents planar travel prevents this effect.

Star

Far beneath the surface world, beneath even the great cave-cities of the dwarves and drow there is a world older than man. Older than writing. Older even than the gods. But not older than magic. In the bones of the earth, there lurk horrors fetid with eldritch knowledge who have been practicing their mystical arts since time began. Among their slaves there number Warlocks, and all of these are sworn to the Great Old Ones, the stargods that dwell beyond and beneath this reality. Most among them die in the wars of their inhuman masters, but over the years, some have escaped and spread their arts among the people of the world. Those who devote themselves to this path learn great and terrible secrets, learning to warp space, time, and even magic itself, but are warped in turn by the touch of beings beyond mortal comprehension.

Forgotten Lore: At 1st level, the Warlock gains access to the ancient and forgotten knowledge of the stargods. This is mechanically equivalent to bardic knowledge, but the topics it covers are different. He may make forgotten lore checks to uncover secrets of ancient magic, knowledge of lost civilizations, unspeakable horrors, or similar subjects.
Places That Are Not Places: At 6th level, the Warlock gains the ability to reach into the space between bits of reality and store things there. This is similar to a Bag of Holding, but it has no weight or volume limits, and retrieving items is always a move action.
Pierce the Veil of Ages: At 11th level, the Warlock can partially detach himself from the ordinary flow of time. He no longer ages, and can peer into the past, future, or alternate present to gain secret knowledge.

This effect is broadly similar to commune, but different in a number of important ways. The answers are more complex, coming in the form of sentences or images. Rather than a limited number of questions, each answer inflicts a point of Wisdom damage. Finally, the answers given are sometimes deceptive. For each answer, the Warlock must roll a Sense Motive check (opposed by a +8 Bluff check). If he fails, he is mislead in some important fashion by the answer. Additionally, until the sun next rises or sets, any further questions will be answered as if that misconception was accurate.

For example, if a Warlock were to ask "who killed the king", receive an incorrect answer of "the queen", and then ask "where is the king's killer", he would learn the queen's location, rather than that of the actual killer.
Arcane Nexus: At 16th level, the Warlock learns to manipulate the fundamental structure of magic. He may apply any metamagic feat with a level adjustment of +4 or less he has to an ongoing spell effect as a swift action, or to a spell being cast as an immediate action. He also gains Extend Spell, Sculpt Spell (CArc), Widen Spell, Empower Spell, and Energy Substitution (CArc) as bonus feats. If he has one of these feats, he may select another metamagic feat for which he meets the prerequisites.

ECS: Eberron Campaign Setting
CArc: Complete Arcane
SpC: Spell Compendium
If it's not obvious, the intention of these is largely to provide the Warlock with some additional utility. For the most part, the abilities granted by the Pacts are non-combat in nature, and the ones that do improve the Warlock's combat abilities do other things as well. This is both because the primary use of Imbue Item is non-combat, and because I just feel that characters in general ought to get a wider variety of utility options.

You probably noticed I'm using "the next time the sun rises or sets" in place of "daily" in a lot of cases. This is for two reasons. First, I think it just sounds more magical. Second, the rules don't really define a singular meaning for "daily" leading to dumb arguments about repeatedly replenishing spell slots. By specifying an in-world event, we get more verisimilitude, and we avoid rules arguments. I consider that a win-win, and if I were writing the game, I'd probably make that explicit.

There are also a number of abilities that inflict ability damage. This is intended as a soft limit on their use. None of them are things that I think are truly broken if used repeatedly, but they are all things I don't want people spamming. Ability damage is a big enough deal you can't completely ignore it, but not so major as to be impossible to work around. Hopefully it provides a somewhat meaningful limitation on these abilities, while encouraging synergy between players (e.g. cashing in a Restoration on the Warlock is a lot more efficient than casting Legend Lore yourself).

I've also written a whole bunch of abilities that make you immortal and/or raise you from the dead. My view is that immortality is largely trinket text in most campaigns, and the "back from the dead" abilities are intended to mitigate the impact of rocket launcher tag at high levels.

Specific Concerns:

1. I'm not totally happy with the "only up to Bard casting" limitation on the SLAs from Spell-Stitched Rebirth. It's possible that "one less than a Wizard of your level could cast" maths out better.
2. The big list of "Specials" on the Dragonmark pact look kind ugly to me. The first one is definitely necessary (also, I think by RAW, it may have to be worded in a different way to let you take the ACF as a 1st level Warlock, but that's dumb). I'm kind of concerned that the second and third just put the build on rails as Warlock 4/Heir PrC 5/Other Heir Prc 5/Siberys Heir 3. On the other hand, it might not be an issue to have the Dragonmark guy take a bunch of Dragonmark PrCs.
3. I would like to have a proper reference for Aberrant Heir, but google only finds third-party sites I think I'm not supposed to reference here.
4. I wish I had figured out better language to express Dragonmark Brand giving the target the best mark the qualify for. Maybe I could just say "they get any of <feats> for which they meet the pre-reqs, but don't have", but since the Dragonmark feats require skill ranks, that makes every NPC's skill point allocation important, which is dumb. Maybe it should just always give them a Least Mark to reduce the amount of magic versatility it gives you.
5. Create Food and Water is kinda lame as your big utility offering at 6th level, even if it does make good food. Maybe some kind of mini-Fabricate/Minor Creation? Unseen Servants?
6. I really should go mathhammer the XP pool on Witch's Brew some. Should it be enough to replace a Cleric reasonably? To keep buffs up in most fights? Also it may require some kind of faster crafting shenanigans to be properly effective.
7. Letting Warlocks maintain half a dozen spell effects may be putting too much strain somewhere. Particularly since it's practically setting you up to do layered illusions. Also, probably doesn't need to give all three levels of Image.
8. I'm not sure Fey Mantle and Demon Lord are properly balanced. Mantle makes you personally harder core, but Lord gives you a big pile of resources. Then again, the notion of the 16th level abilities is that the campaign is probably over at that point.
9. I'm not sure how much good the "like this other spell" reference in Call Fiend and Pierce the Veil of Ages is doing, as I'm making a lot of custom modifications.

Elves
2020-08-24, 01:50 AM
Imbue Item I think has a valid role in letting a warlock stand in for a full caster. It should probably come much earlier though.

What I'd like to see cleared out to make room for this kind of pact feature, in addition to deceive item, are the warlock's DR, energy resistance and fiendish resilience, which are pretty unimpressive and bland. That way its class features boil down to pact benefits, eldritch blast advancement, and new invocation tiers, which is simple and clean. That might suggest adding an in-combat defensive for each pact to replace the lost defense from those features. Fiendish resilience could stay as the fiendish pact defensive -- perhaps changed to temporary +NA from demonic scales, instead of fast healing?


specific pacts:

Spell-stitched mods seem too complex, and all those SLAs seem a pain to keep track of. Maybe just cut? Could add a predetermined on-theme SLA or two to make up for it (deathwatch, whatever).

I think you should either cut the Depths pact or retheme it on serving aboleths and underwater Cthulhian horrors, just to keep it thematically focused on warlocky stuff. Ability to survive underwater pressure would be cool flavor. Maybe tentacles. Dark depths of the sea replacing the storm abilities. "Drowned man". Secrets of the Sea surprised me, not conventionally sea themed but cool.

For genie maybe some sort of air walk effect that allows you to not have to take fell flight?

True rez effect on fey pact seems a little strong. Maybe fey pact is where DR/cold iron should go. Maybe killing blow with cold iron prevents rez, not sure whether that actually works as a balancer. "Sever connection to the fey" is vague.

Fell fortune -- would feel more "fiendish" if there were also a price, like if on your next roll you took a penalty equal to the difference between the better result and worse result when you used fell fortune. Or if you just take 1d6 damage per point of difference. Etc.

Star pact "no longer ages" seems a little extreme. Maybe they still age in daylight or only don't age in starlight, or perhaps they can enter an extradimensional space where they don't age, or maybe they hew their fate to a comet, giving them a random span of life anywhere between several dozen and several hundred years...just trying to think of ways to make it a little less blank-check.

by contrast, feel like the star commune text could be simplified.

Arcane Nexus seems way OP, am I missing something? Would tone it down to some limited free MM for your invocations only.

NigelWalmsley
2020-08-29, 05:52 PM
Imbue Item I think has a valid role in letting a warlock stand in for a full caster. It should probably come much earlier though.

Imbue Item is not bad mechanically, it's just a weird flavor fit, and it pushes you in a direction that's not healthy for the game (spamming scrolls). I think if you want to play a character who gets their power from magic items, you want an Artificer, not a Warlock (though that class has its own problems).


That might suggest adding an in-combat defensive for each pact to replace the lost defense from those features.

I think if I was going to tweak the Warlock's defensive abilities, I'd probably make them into invocations that grant passive effects. Because a lot of these things are available to multiple types of creature, or are general interest abilities that every Warlock ought to have access to. For example, giving the Depths pact tentacles means that Warlocks in thrall to Grell or Ilithid don't get tentacles. You don't need to give the Genie pact flight instead of Fell Flight, they can just take Fell Flight.

Also, I'm personally not sold on having all the major abilities of a class be selectable options. People should just get some stuff to provide at least a modicum of class identity. One of the nice things about the Druid is that you know from someone telling you they're a Druid that they can turn into a Bear.


Spell-stitched mods seem too complex, and all those SLAs seem a pain to keep track of. Maybe just cut? Could add a predetermined on-theme SLA or two to make up for it (deathwatch, whatever).

I think Spell-Stitching yourself is fine. Adding it to all your undead minions is what makes it a nightmare to work with. Maybe that should be something like Awaken Undead and Haunt Shift as SLAs instead.


I think you should either cut the Depths pact or retheme it on serving aboleths and underwater Cthulhian horrors, just to keep it thematically focused on warlocky stuff.

It's supposed to be thematically like Tia Dalma from the Pirates movies, who is clearly a Warlock (or a Witch, but those classes are basically the same thing). There's plenty of stuff in the depths of the sea that you could sell your soul to if you're of a mind to do that.


Ability to survive underwater pressure would be cool flavor.

That's a reasonable add. One of the issue it does have is that abilities like that are kinda meaningless if you're the only one who gets them.


True rez effect on fey pact seems a little strong. Maybe fey pact is where DR/cold iron should go. Maybe killing blow with cold iron prevents rez, not sure whether that actually works as a balancer. "Sever connection to the fey" is vague.

The idea was supposed to be that you can use Trap the Soul or Imprisonment to stop them from coming back, but it turns out that those don't work on dead people. I should add some clarifying text about that. But Wish works, as does something like feeding the body to a Barghest. "Sever the connection to the fey" was a bad language choice, the intent is more like "get their court's ruler to renounce them". It's supposed to be an adventure hook for a Fey Pact BBEG to help reduce the incentive to just tele-gank them immediately.


Fell fortune -- would feel more "fiendish" if there were also a price, like if on your next roll you took a penalty equal to the difference between the better result and worse result when you used fell fortune. Or if you just take 1d6 damage per point of difference. Etc.

I think that's probably over-complicating it too much. That said, I'm not super satisfied with how fiendish it feels, so I'm open to alternative abilities for that slot.


Star pact "no longer ages" seems a little extreme.

Have you ever been in a campaign where someone went up even one age category? Not aging is a cool ability, but not one that really does much of anything in most cases. Especially because, as written, it stops you from getting the mental stat bonuses that people get excited about.


by contrast, feel like the star commune text could be simplified.

Yeah. Honestly I might just give them Commune. The thing where you have to try to figure out if the visions are lying to you is cool, but might be too much work.


Arcane Nexus seems way OP, am I missing something? Would tone it down to some limited free MM for your invocations only.

The 16th level abilities are intended to be kind of insane. They're what you get when the Wizards of the world are throwing around Greater Planar Binding and Polymorph Any Object. I could see dropping the cap down to +3 so that you can't quicken it, but as it is I don't think it's that massive of a deal.

Elves
2020-08-29, 10:26 PM
Imbue Item is not bad mechanically, it's just a weird flavor fit, and it pushes you in a direction that's not healthy for the game (spamming scrolls). I think if you want to play a character who gets their power from magic items, you want an Artificer, not a Warlock (though that class has its own problems).
Sounds fair.


Also, I'm personally not sold on having all the major abilities of a class be selectable options. People should just get some stuff to provide at least a modicum of class identity.
The problem is that those three things (DR/cold iron, resist energy 5 and fiendish resilience) are so bland that they don't succeed at giving it any identity.

Eldritch blast is clearly the core class identity feature, and it does a good job of that. Then, the fact that all pacts share an invocation list ensures that they all feel like the same class. I think it's elegant.

(Though adding a few unique invocation choices for each pact wouldn't be out of place).


You don't need to give the Genie pact flight instead of Fell Flight, they can just take Fell Flight.
But a genie build could be one where fell flight is optional. Just trying to think of ways to make each variant stand out with its own build choices.


It's supposed to be thematically like Tia Dalma from the Pirates movies, who is clearly a Warlock (or a Witch, but those classes are basically the same thing). There's plenty of stuff in the depths of the sea that you could sell your soul to if you're of a mind to do that.
It's the two storm abilities that feel out of place for me and also impinge on druid flavor. To keep warlock flavor, my thought is dark spooky depths instead of surface storms. Tentacles instead of lightning, or summon a kraken or something.


That's a reasonable add. One of the issue it does have is that abilities like that are kinda meaningless if you're the only one who gets them.
Turn your whole party into Innsmouth fish people? "Gift of the Deep Sea"?


I think that's probably over-complicating it too much.
2d20 pick the highest is a common mechanic, now with a fiendish twist. Doesn't scan as overcomplicated. Obviously you could pick a simpler price if you want (like direct damage).


Yeah. Honestly I might just give them Commune. The thing where you have to try to figure out if the visions are lying to you is cool, but might be too much work.
It was actually the two sentences before that which kind of caused me to zone out. You could just make it a flat % chance of being misleading info, rolled by DM -- no real reason to reward investing in Sense Motive.


The 16th level abilities are intended to be kind of insane. They're what you get when the Wizards of the world are throwing around Greater Planar Binding and Polymorph Any Object. I could see dropping the cap down to +3 so that you can't quicken it, but as it is I don't think it's that massive of a deal.
You risk truenamer syndrome though. I recommend 1/day on the fey pact resurrection (cold iron killing blow = no rez also seems kind of cool), more strictly defining the fiendish capstone. For arcane nexus, limiting it to your invocations to prevent incantatrix abuse. Then either making it a 1/day active ability similar to rage, or removing the bonus feats and probably lowering it to +3 or making it 1/encounter or adding some kind of cost.

NigelWalmsley
2020-08-29, 11:34 PM
The problem is that those three things (DR/cold iron, resist energy 5 and fiendish resilience) are so bland that they don't succeed at giving it any identity.

DR and Energy Resistance are clearly a nod to fiends, which the RAW Warlock is primarily focused on. They're not good, but that's mostly because the numbers are tiny and you don't care. If they scaled to the point of being meaningful defensive abilities, they would give the Warlock an identity as a caster whose tougher than normal casters (much as the Dread Necromancer is a pretty effective tank before their undead horde comes online).


Eldritch blast is clearly the core class identity feature, and it does a good job of that. Then, the fact that all pacts share an invocation list ensures that they all feel like the same class. I think it's elegant.

Sharing the same ability list doesn't particularly build identity when you're picking abilities off that list. If one Warlock is a Fey Pact grifter who takes the +face skills invocation and Charm, and another is a Death Pact necromancer who takes The Dead Walk and some hypothetical additional necromancy powers, there's not much linking them as a class. That said, I do agree the class features need to be retooled to be more worthwhile.


(Though adding a few unique invocation choices for each pact wouldn't be out of place).

The notion I have for a full Warlock retool adds a concept of "passive" invocations that formalizes things like Fell Flight into just being abilities you have. I could see a set of those (probably at Greater) granting pact-appropriate resistances or immunities. It does run into some issues with the Death Pact, which is already giving you all the undead abilities you could want.


But a genie build could be one where fell flight is optional. Just trying to think of ways to make each variant stand out with its own build choices.

My issue is that I don't see how Genies are particularly suited to that. It's true that the Djinn and Efreet fly, but the Dao and Marid don't. Giving that out isn't necessarily unreasonable, but it's not clear to me why it's a better fit there than it would be for the Fiend Pact (as lots of Demons fly), or the Depths pact if it keeps the storms stuff. Frankly, flight is a good enough power for the Warlock that I'd be tempted to just give it to them.


It's the two storm abilities that feel out of place for me and also impinge on druid flavor. To keep warlock flavor, my thought is dark spooky depths instead of surface storms. Tentacles instead of lightning, or summon a kraken or something.

I don't necessarily have a problem with other classes being able to take up storm magic. There are already various PrCs that let you do it, and while Druids are better at Control Weather than anyone else, it is available to all the core fullcasters at the same level. That said, I wouldn't be opposed to making the abilities more focused on the depths of the sea. Calling up a Kraken to wreck your enemies ships is on-theme.


2d20 pick the highest is a common mechanic, now with a fiendish twist. Doesn't scan as overcomplicated. Obviously you could pick a simpler price if you want (like direct damage).

Having to carry the difference over as a penalty is a lot of extra steps. Part of the reason "2d20 keep the highest" is such a common mechanic is that all you care about is which die is higher. I could see changing it from daily uses to ability damage.


It was actually the two sentences before that which kind of caused me to zone out. You could just make it a flat % chance of being misleading info, rolled by DM -- no real reason to reward investing in Sense Motive.

I actually like rewarding Sense Motive investment, because it encourages a character with the ability to be a wise man. That said, thinking about it more it's pretty obviously a bad fit for the Star Pact. Those guys are supposed to be raving about the will of their mad gods, having them be perceptive mediators is a flavor fail. It probably fits better as an ability for something like a Spirit Shaman or Fey Pact Warlock.


You risk truenamer syndrome though.

IMO the problem with Truenamer syndrome is all the levels at the beginning where your character is a waste of space. High level D&D is totally insane. If you're not going to go to the work of fixing that (and I am not), giving people the tools to compete seems like the charitable thing to do.


I recommend 1/day on the fey pact resurrection (cold iron killing blow = no rez also seems kind of cool),

How are you going to use it more than once per day? It's not like you can raise someone else with it, so for it to go off multiple times you'd have to get yourself killed before sunrise, then get yourself killed again between sunrise and sunset. I guess it gives you "track them down and kill them again" as another way around the immortality, but I'm not sure that's necessary.


more strictly defining the fiendish capstone.

What kind of thing did you have in mind?


For arcane nexus, limiting it to your invocations to prevent incantatrix abuse. Then either making it a 1/day active ability similar to rage, or removing the bonus feats and probably lowering it to +3 or making it 1/encounter or adding some kind of cost.

The big Incantatrix abuse is sticking Persistent Spell on stuff, which Arcane Nexus is unable to do due to the adjustment cap. The bonus feats are necessary to let it do much of anything, as otherwise you're stuck spending most of your career taking dead feats in hope of eventually getting to your psuedo-capstone. That said, you're not wrong that free metamagic can be busted as all hell. This is another one I could see replacing with something else, probably in the vein of consuming magic to power something.

Elves
2020-08-30, 11:14 AM
Sharing the same ability list doesn't particularly build identity when you're picking abilities off that list.
One ability shared by everyone (EB) to create basic class identity, one lifelong choice (pact) to create specialization identity, and shared pool of active abilities to choose from (invocations). Seems a decent framework.


The notion I have for a full Warlock retool adds a concept of "passive" invocations that formalizes things like Fell Flight into just being abilities you have.
Fell Flight is problematic. Doesn't really fit as a baseline ability but so good that it's compulsory as an invocation. TBH, my approach would be to nerf it while increasing the strength of the class overall.

You could give each pact its own fell flight (genie cloud, demon wings, fairy wings, mote of flying star energy, depths instead gets swim speed/pressure resistance). But veers too complicated.


I could see a set of those (probably at Greater) granting pact-appropriate resistances or immunities. It does run into some issues with the Death Pact, which is already giving you all the undead abilities you could want
In that case should probably just bake the defensives into the pacts. DR/cold iron for fey, maybe other fiendish resistances for fiendish.


IMO the problem with Truenamer syndrome is all the levels at the beginning where your character is a waste of space. High level D&D is totally insane. If you're not going to go to the work of fixing that (and I am not), giving people the tools to compete seems like the charitable thing to do.
Nexus is the only one that seems wildly out of line to me. Fiendish also seems too strong. Fey just seems like it should have a built-in way of circumventing it, hence the cold iron suggestion, but YMMV.


How are you going to use it more than once per day? It's not like you can raise someone else with it, so for it to go off multiple times you'd have to get yourself killed before sunrise, then get yourself killed again between sunrise and sunset.
Maybe make it just sunrise then.


What kind of thing did you have in mind?
On reread, definition isn't what it needs.

My recommendation for the demiplane part is that instead of a demiplane it's within Hell or the Abyss, and you can simply plane shift there at will. (No plane shift upon death, no free heal -- that part in any case seems too similar to the fey ability.)


The big Incantatrix abuse is sticking Persistent Spell on stuff, which Arcane Nexus is unable to do due to the adjustment cap. The bonus feats are necessary to let it do much of anything, as otherwise you're stuck spending most of your career taking dead feats in hope of eventually getting to your psuedo-capstone.
True. My rec then, as per last post, is either make the free MM 1/encounter, chamod/day, or make it an ability you can activate as a free action once per day that lasts 1 minute.

redking
2020-08-30, 07:03 PM
Deceive Item and Imbue Item are among the warlock's best abilities. I see where you are going with the flavor, but how else are warlocks to create magical items?

As for your ACFs, I love them! I'd simply allow them as is without having to trade in Deceive Item and Imbue Item, as warlock is a lower tier base class anyway.

Blue Jay
2020-09-07, 12:43 PM
This is really cool. I love the warlock conceptually, but it does have some restrictive flavor to it. And like others, I agree that the item-creation is a nice boon for the warlock, but I think your pacts bring something really cool that replace it nicely.

I haven't finished reading through them all yet, but I did have a couple comment minor on the first couple:

Death Pact: I kind of agree with Elves. I worry that these abilities are a bit too open-ended. They're probably fine, balance-wise, but I'd feel better about them as a DM if you didn't remove the costs of the Spell-Stitched template, and you specified a template (or a couple to choose from) at 16th.

Depths Pact: Did you intend "Embrace the Waves" to grant a racial Swim speed, with the +8 racial bonus and "take 10 on any Swim check"? If not, I think you should. Then, it's basically like granting Swimming the Styx as a bonus invocation.

NigelWalmsley
2020-09-07, 01:21 PM
Based on discussion, I was thinking of the following changes to the ability lineup:

Death
11th -- at-will Haunt Shift, Awaken Undead

Depths
1st -- can share ability with others
6th -- attract followers
16th -- gain the ability to summon ocean creatures, dredge up items from the sea

Fey
11th -- gain the Star Pact 11th level ability
16th -- trade the domains for illusions (probably upgraded to Persistent Image and Mirage Arcana), tweak rez effect to be slightly easier to stop

Fiend
1st -- replace use limit with Charisma damage

Star
11th -- Prying Eyes
16th -- absorb magic via dispelling, magic item creation

I like most of that. It gets Warlocks back in the item creation game in a more contained manner, moves the Sense Motive reward to a pact where it makes more sense, fixes the memory issues of a bunch of Spell-Stitched undead, and moves Depths more purely into ocean stuff (the overall package ends up a bit more Davy Jones than Tia Dalma, but it seems roughly correct to me).


Deceive Item and Imbue Item are among the warlock's best abilities. I see where you are going with the flavor, but how else are warlocks to create magical items?

As for your ACFs, I love them! I'd simply allow them as is without having to trade in Deceive Item and Imbue Item, as warlock is a lower tier base class anyway.

The Warlock should still be able to create items that require only a caster level (such as +X weapons), or ones which require spells which his invocations emulate. You could certainly justify giving the Warlock both a pact and the deceive/imbue item combo on the basis of power, I simply think those abilities don't match the flavor of the class.

As noted, I'm considering moving the 16th level Star Pact ability into that space. The metamagic thing is kinda busted, and a little more directly combat relevant than is really intended. Something like:

Eater of Magic: At 16th level, the Warlock gains the ability to draw magical energy into himself and repurpose it. He gains greater dispel magic as an at-will spell-like ability. He also gains the Craft Reserve and Item Creation abilities of the Artificer. Whenever he dispels a magical effect he did not create (either with this ability, one of his invocations, or in some other way) he adds a number of points to his Craft Reserve equal to five times the effect's level.

Maybe Craft Wondrous Item as a bonus feat too?


This is really cool.

Thank you!


Death Pact: I kind of agree with Elves. I worry that these abilities are a bit too open-ended. They're probably fine, balance-wise, but I'd feel better about them as a DM if you didn't remove the costs of the Spell-Stitched template, and you specified a template (or a couple to choose from) at 16th.

I was thinking of replacing the 11th level ability with something like this:

Master of Undeath: At 11th level, the Warlock learns to twist the essence of other undead creatures. He may use awaken undead (LM) and haunt shift (LM) at will, though he may only target undead he controls. Haunting presences bound to a location no longer count against his control limit, though they still obey commands.

That's a lot less open ended (and a lot easier to track) than turning all your minions into Spell-Stitched. It allows you to make self-moving machinery with Haunt Shift, and by encouraging you to stockpile your undead as haunting presences in your base gives the Warlock a reason to live inside a creepy haunted castle. That seems like a reasonable utility package. I'm not totally satisfied with the interaction between Haunt Shift and haunted presences (nothing you make with the spell can move anything immobile ever), but overall that seems like it'd be better.

For the final ability, my assumption was that people would mostly become Vampires, Ghosts, or Liches with the ability. I could restrict it to just that, but at the same time, if someone's dream undead form is a Gravetouched Ghoul, who am I to stop them? It's definitely a powerful ability, but it's also an ability you get for sticking with your base class all the way to 16th level.


Depths Pact: Did you intend "Embrace the Waves" to grant a racial Swim speed, with the +8 racial bonus and "take 10 on any Swim check"? If not, I think you should. Then, it's basically like granting Swimming the Styx as a bonus invocation.

My understanding of the relevant rules is that it works that way automatically ("A creature with a swim speed can move through water at its indicated speed without making Swim checks. It gains a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard."). I can definitely add a line of clarifying text.

Blue Jay
2020-09-07, 02:30 PM
Master of Undeath: At 11th level, the Warlock learns to twist the essence of other undead creatures. He may use awaken undead (LM) and haunt shift (LM) at will, though he may only target undead he controls. Haunting presences bound to a location no longer count against his control limit, though they still obey commands.

That's a lot less open ended (and a lot easier to track) than turning all your minions into Spell-Stitched. It allows you to make self-moving machinery with Haunt Shift, and by encouraging you to stockpile your undead as haunting presences in your base gives the Warlock a reason to live inside a creepy haunted castle. That seems like a reasonable utility package. I'm not totally satisfied with the interaction between Haunt Shift and haunted presences (nothing you make with the spell can move anything immobile ever), but overall that seems like it'd be better.

I like that. I'm not sure that my objection to spell-stitched is very well-founded, but this is also a good idea.


For the final ability, my assumption was that people would mostly become Vampires, Ghosts, or Liches with the ability. I could restrict it to just that, but at the same time, if someone's dream undead form is a Gravetouched Ghoul, who am I to stop them? It's definitely a powerful ability, but it's also an ability you get for sticking with your base class all the way to 16th level.

Yeah, I think I agree: ignore my objection here.


My understanding of the relevant rules is that it works that way automatically ("A creature with a swim speed can move through water at its indicated speed without making Swim checks. It gains a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard."). I can definitely add a line of clarifying text.

Yeah, it is. It's just that the wording didn't make it clear that you were giving a racial swim speed. I always like to be really clear with it, because some swimming monsters don't have the extra skill text in their stat blocks (like the shambling mound). I suspect those are just accidental omissions, but it never hurts to be sure.

Elves
2020-09-07, 02:36 PM
Eater of Magic: At 16th level, the Warlock gains the ability to draw magical energy into himself and repurpose it. He gains greater dispel magic as an at-will spell-like ability. He also gains the Craft Reserve and Item Creation abilities of the Artificer. Whenever he dispels a magical effect he did not create (either with this ability, one of his invocations, or in some other way) he adds a number of points to his Craft Reserve equal to five times the effect's level.
I don't see the thematic link between star pact and magic item creation, and 16th level is so late in the game that it doesn't really salvage the warlock's item creation capacities. If you want star to have magic item creation, I would put it at 11th. Come to think of it, magic item creation seems more fitting for genie. But I think your original choice to get rid of warlock magic item creation was a fine one.


Master of Undeath: At 11th level, the Warlock learns to twist the essence of other undead creatures. He may use awaken undead (LM) and haunt shift (LM) at will, though he may only target undead he controls. Haunting presences bound to a location no longer count against his control limit, though they still obey commands.
Looks good.


What are the followers you're thinking for depth pact?

A nice flavor note for depth pact warlocks might be to have them constantly coughing up seawater and always wet as from the ocean. Maybe an ability where brackish seawater drips from their limbs and flows out of their mouth to flood an area. It would be really gross if they could vomit out sea monsters, like imagine an octopus groping its way out of their mouth or something ridiculous like that. Or spitting out a sea serpent. Random ideas. On a similar note to the coughing up sea water, what if they could cough up "drowned mens' coins" or other sunken treasures.

Miss Disaster
2020-09-08, 11:31 AM
This is brilliant work, Nigel. Bravo! I'm nabbing these mechanics for my 3.P campaign, stat!

I agree with Redking ... I would allow these ACFs to be added to standard 3.5 Warlocks without removing Deceive Item and Imbue Item. It certainly would not boost Warlocks above Tier 3 (which is a nice aimed-for power level for Warlocks to be at).

Have you thought of adding any additional Pacts?

NigelWalmsley
2020-09-08, 08:04 PM
I don't see the thematic link between star pact and magic item creation

The idea is that the star pact gives you the ability to bend the flows of magic, so you can take magic out of the environment (by dispelling it) and then stick it in other places (magic items). Perhaps some alternative uses like temporary HP or healing could sell the overall flavor better.


If you want star to have magic item creation, I would put it at 11th. Come to think of it, magic item creation seems more fitting for genie. But I think your original choice to get rid of warlock magic item creation was a fine one.

All of that is reasonable. Personally, I don't necessarily mind item creation as an option for the Warlock, I just think it's weird as the default. It could work on the genie stuff (though the Limited Wish ability allows you to craft a whole bunch of different types of item).


What are the followers you're thinking for depth pact?

I was just going to give them followers as Leadership, with the stipulation that they have to be [Aquatic] or [Water] creatures, with the same requirement on the summoning ability at 16th. No cohort, because that's the part of Leadership that does dumb stuff.


A nice flavor note for depth pact warlocks might be to have them constantly coughing up seawater and always wet as from the ocean.

I think a fuller draft would have a rant about how Warlocks who progress further down a pact get flavor stuff in line with that pact. Things like Fey Pact Warlocks being unable to lie (or unable to tell unambiguous truths, both fit for fae influence), or Fiend Pact ones getting various fiendish traits, or Depths Pact Warlocks sweating seawater. I wouldn't want to make it a hard and fast set of specific things, because while you should definitely have some Warlocks who are warped by demonic influence, the well-dressed stranger whose rivals keep having tragic accidents is definitely also a Warlock, but wants to look like a normal dude. There's a similar list in Dragon Magic for Sorcerers getting draconic traits.


This is brilliant work, Nigel. Bravo! I'm nabbing these mechanics for my 3.P campaign, stat!

High praise, thank you very much!


Have you thought of adding any additional Pacts?

There's really a lot. D&D is goddamn full of monsters that would be perfectly happy to give you a big pile of power in exchange for your soul, or just because they happen to think that sort of thing is funny.

The big idea I was bouncing around that didn't make the cut was some kind of Celestial Pact (in the vein of those "holy warlock" guys from Complete Mage). Earlier versions of the Star Pact were also a lot heavier into aberrations/fleshwarping, with "make grafts for cheap" as the big deal ability. I also considered a bigger Seelie/Unseelie split for the Fey pact, but ultimately wasn't willing to do the research to make that a reality.

The most obvious avenue for expansion is that there's a lot of room for things to get more specialized. I personally don't want to figure out if you're getting your Depths power from a Kraken, a pack of Naga, the lost mage-apostles of Atlantis, or something else that lives in the deep ocean, but there's no reason you couldn't do that. In particular, the Fiend Pact is ripe for getting some or all of its abilities replaced by stuff from the various "demon prince's minion" PrCs and becoming an "Orcus Pact" or "Lolth Pact", which could be particularly useful for campaigns where the players were going to repeatedly tangle with the cult of Dagon or whoever. You could also do a harsher distinction between a Genie pact (which gets you a bunch of powers aimed at granting people's wishes) and an Elements pact that was more in the vein of the Princes of Elemental Evil.

But really, the sky's the limit. Elder Evils are the most obvious one. The issue you run into is that you don't (or at least I don't) want the Warlock to turn into a total catch-all class. You could have a Shadow Pact, but that's kind of a direct middle finger to the Shadowcasters of the world (who, admittedly, kinda suck, but that's a whole other thing).

Elves
2020-09-08, 10:02 PM
Magic item creation could come from an Artifact Pact where you get your power from an artifact or intelligent item (or from magic items in general) instead of a patron creature. Could be fun. Draining items for residuum, better UMD abilities, perhaps some reliance on items for your invocations.

Elder Evil pact sounds very cool.

Vestige Pact for a binder-warlock hybrid could be fun. At some point I had the thought of doing a warlock remake that fused those two classes together, with pacts being your primary source of invocations.

Or vestige integration could be a way to bring in your idea of specific patrons. Would certainly fit demon lords, Elder Evils, etc.


The danger with the "patron" concept is if warlock becomes the generic "get the abilities of other creatures" class -- that's a fine class concept but is no longer a warlock. So I think it's important to make sure the abilities and pacts all stay creepy and warlockish. More themes of price and consequence with pact abilities could be interesting but threatens to be annoying.

NigelWalmsley
2020-09-10, 07:45 PM
Magic item creation could come from an Artifact Pact where you get your power from an artifact or intelligent item (or from magic items in general) instead of a patron creature. Could be fun. Draining items for residuum, better UMD abilities, perhaps some reliance on items for your invocations.

I think there's room for an Artifact Pact, but it runs into the problem of potentially being too much like the Artificer. I think insofar as such a thing works, it's probably better focused at the Invocation level, where you fluff your abilities as coming from individual artefacts, rather than personal magic. So your Summon Swarm is instead the Jar of Vermin, which is a funeral urn that is full of an infinite number of spiders. Maybe you want a pact on top of that as well, but you could probably get away with just going Star Pact (or whatever ends up getting item creation).


Elder Evil pact sounds very cool.

You probably want one pact per. The god-hating servants of Pandorym are presumably not getting the same abilities as the serpent cultists of Sertrous, and Atropus and The Leviathan are good fits for the existing Death Pact and Depths Pact, respectively. Which makes me suspect that the real answer is probably just to have a section at the end about customizing the Warlock, because actually writing up all the potential specific Pacts is a horrible use of your time.


The danger with the "patron" concept is if warlock becomes the generic "get the abilities of other creatures" class -- that's a fine class concept but is no longer a warlock.

There are a lot of potential issues with the Pact/Patron concept. The big one (and one I tried to explicitly head off) is the idea that the Warlock is indebted to his patron in any mechanically important way. That kind of thing tend to cause problems in play, particularly because a lot of the potential patrons are things you might very easily end up stabbing to death at some point in your adventuring career.

But you're definitely not wrong that it's possible to cast the net too widely. Just because you can write up a Pact of the Destroyer that gets Torrasque powers does not mean you should do that. The Warlock needs to have limitations on what it does. Frankly, I think the Dragonmark Pact is probably pushing things too far into Sorcerer territory already, and there's a good chance the Elements Pact ought to get moved more towards the Princes of Elemental Evil rather than Genies to fit thematically. The general goal should be to keep things within what might show up in a supernatural horror story, or the darker fairy tales. If I end up expanding this to a full rework, it'd be with the understanding that the Fey, Star, Death, and Fiend Pacts represent the core of the class, because those are definitely the most iconic kinds of Warlock.


More themes of price and consequence with pact abilities could be interesting but threatens to be annoying.

Definitely. Which is why I mostly tried to stick to ability damage. It's annoying enough to stop you from completely spamming abilities (which is irritating in and of itself), but minor enough to not derail the campaign. As with any class, the Warlock's abilities need to mostly be stuff you can just do.

Elves
2020-09-10, 09:40 PM
I think there's room for an Artifact Pact, but it runs into the problem of potentially being too much like the Artificer.
I’d basically see it as a more expansive alternative to the hexblade concept of 4e and 5e (Elric ripoff), probably tied to single intelligent item or able to awake intelligence within a single magic item they possess. If warlocks are the stolen/bought power class it makes sense that magic items would be as potent a source of power as magical creatures.

On top of the item creation, to keep them distinct from artificer, I don’t think they need any infusion type powers — just give them the ability to consume magic items for some benefit. Absorb consumables to choose from a small list of buffs (+CL, fast healing, whatever) that scale based on absorbed spell level, absorb permanent items to empower your intelligent item a la Ancestral Relic or perhaps to gain bonus XP that can be used on crafting.

It certainly seems more fitting as a place for the item creation than star pact, whose identity I’m still not that clear on. Seems like it could use more celestial theming — the long cycle, perhaps make it UFO themed which would be pretty funny and honestly more entertaining than the vague Lovecraftian ominousness.


I think insofar as such a thing works, it's probably better focused at the Invocation level, where you fluff your abilities as coming from individual artefacts, rather than personal magic. So your Summon Swarm is instead the Jar of Vermin, which is a funeral urn that is full of an infinite number of spiders.
That sounds like it would be the flavor details section of artifact pact, and honestly it sounds pretty fun. A way to give it a mechanic would be that each of your invocations requires a Focus, but you gain some compensating benefit like +1 CL.


You probably want one pact per. The god-hating servants of Pandorym are presumably not getting the same abilities as the serpent cultists of Sertrous, and Atropus and The Leviathan are good fits for the existing Death Pact and Depths Pact, respectively.
I would write one ability that was new and unique per EE, one that keyed off their already described influence and omens in the book, and the others generic — welcome your master, dread of the whatever, incomprehensible horror. But your last point is a fair reason not to do it.


There are a lot of potential issues with the Pact/Patron concept.
To be clear by the way, I’m not criticizing your homebrew here, I’m speaking to the whole warlock class concept from 4e on. (If you look at the warlock fluff from 3e it’s weirdly redundant with sorcerer.)

Honestly I think the arcane casting classes in D&D need better definition. With wiz, sor and warlock it still seems like you could have a single mage class that let you choose between book magic, wild magic or pact magic.



the Elements Pact ought to get moved more towards the Princes of Elemental Evil rather than Genies to fit thematically.
That’s cool, though runs the risk of being another “elementalist” class. But replacing your EB with whatever energy damage type you want would be pretty nice.

I know genie pact is a 5e thing but I find the concept doesn’t quite connect. It seems to exist mainly because warlocks look cool in turbans, which I guess is something.