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Jarlax
2007-10-31, 06:34 PM
there is a little cartoon on wizards now explaining the new beholder, since its not an actual article ill quickly make some important points from the video.

- Beholders are in: obvious enough, the beholder is confirmed for 4E MM

- Save or Die is now Save or Die Later: effects such as flesh to stone are not instantaneous any more but take several rounds to take full effect.

- Solo Monsters: some kind of epic boss monster, i think this was hinted to early on but its confirmed now, in the MM will be a group of monsters designed to go 1:4 against the party. the beholder is confirmed to be one of these solo monsters and i would guess dragons will be too.

the animation was defiantly better than that terrible 4E preview movie and it had some funny stuff in there.

as for the new rules, i like the idea of monsters which are supposed to fight PCs and a single creature, obviously they make for good boss monsters or just a nice solo fight. also they seem to be picking iconic monster to get the treatment, so maybe beholders, dragons, gelatinous cubes and those other Iconic monsters who just have that great "were screwed" effect on the party.

now what i don't like is this Save or die later stuff, hopefully its restricted to the beholder beams and not to spells and abilities which closely mimic spells in general. the core problem people had with save or die was you took a single save or BAM your out of action. but this is the same thing, unless there forcing a fort save every round than in say 5 rounds your in the same place you were in 3.5, it just took a few extra rounds.

Artanis
2007-10-31, 06:44 PM
Is it possible that "Save or Die later" would allow some chance to dispel or otherwise prevent the effect? And even if not, it allows them to make such effects even more deadly because the victim would be able to fight on a while, rather than keeling over instantly, allowing them to help win the fight and thus help prevent a TPK.

Fax Celestis
2007-10-31, 06:45 PM
Is it possible that "Save or Die later" would allow some chance to dispel or otherwise prevent the effect? And even if not, it allows them to make such effects even more deadly because the victim would be able to fight on a while, rather than keeling over instantly, allowing them to help win the fight and thus help prevent a TPK.

I would expect that's why the delay is in place. I can see a whole host of preventative measures implemented due to that development.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-31, 06:53 PM
Oh boy. Could the tarrasque possibly come back, this time as a REALLY fearsome opponent who is a real triumph, and who actually requires you to bring it all out to bring him down?

Valairn
2007-10-31, 06:53 PM
"I only have time for one take! **** this!"

Made me laugh out loud.

Dausuul
2007-10-31, 06:58 PM
By the way, here's a link to the cartoon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20071031a) in question.

The "solo monster" thing is mildly interesting; I suppose the goal is to design a monster that can threaten a party all by itself without being 4 CRs above average party level (which can have unfortunate consequences).

The save-or-die-later business is excellent. I wholeheartedly approve. It's a great way to keep the iconic "screw you, you're dead" effects without the arbitrariness of putting it all on a single die roll.

Tyger
2007-10-31, 06:58 PM
Any chance for a link?

D'oh! Dausuul ninja action!

To the original point:

Well, always hard to tell from fluff like that, but personally, I kind of like the idea of doing away (or limiting) the so called "save or die" / "save or lose" spells. They are one of the main reasons why full casters are considered so much more powerful than melee or ranged characters. Yes, yes, I know that Time Stop + whatever-combination-is-the-flavour-of-the-month-now isn't per se a save or die, but many of the spells that non-optimized to the wazoo wizards use routinely in an effort not to overshadow the rest of the group do fall into that category.

It'll be nice to see scenes where the Wizard nails the Terrible-Monster-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named with a ray of ultimate death, and then screams out to his warrior buddies "Got him guys!! Just hold on for a bit longer! Don't let him get away!" The warriors have a real purpose there.

That's not to suggest that I believe this is the be-all-end-all answer to caster overpower. I'm naive, I'm not stupid. :smallbiggrin:

But I like it. Can't wait.

Temp
2007-10-31, 07:17 PM
Heh. The "Printer Friendly" thing even works on animations. Neat.

Mike_Lemmer
2007-10-31, 07:31 PM
I would expect that's why the delay is in place. I can see a whole host of preventative measures implemented due to that development.

Called it. I can see the cleric having to choose between removing a wizard's petrification & healing the fighter that's down to 8 HP. It also makes those individual ward spells useful again! No more having to guess who to put the Death Ward on for a battle!

Belteshazzar
2007-10-31, 08:14 PM
If they plan to simply make most of the Save or Suffer abilities into Save or Suffer later I can deal with this. As long as I don't have to simply rely on hitpoint damage for magical death.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-10-31, 08:23 PM
What I guess from Save ODL would be something like:

Flesh to Stone; Fort Save or take a cumulative -3 to Dex each turn, if this reduces you to 0 you turn to stone.

I.E. Effects happen, but happen slowly over several rounds rather than immediately.

Temp
2007-10-31, 08:36 PM
Out of curiosity, did everyone else just see a horizontal grey line for the majority of the animation or is my computer having troubles?

Lord Iames Osari
2007-10-31, 08:38 PM
Out of curiosity, did everyone else just see a horizontal grey line for the majority of the animation or is my computer having troubles?

Think it's just you.

Mike_Lemmer
2007-10-31, 08:39 PM
Or something like "Immediately Slowed, Turned to Stone after 1d4+2 rounds".

You could then take out a d6 to count down the rounds before you're stoned.

Fax Celestis
2007-10-31, 08:44 PM
Or something like "Immediately Slowed, Turned to Stone after 1d4+2 rounds".

You could then take out a d6 to count down the rounds before you're stoned.

Hehheh. Leomund's secret stash: 1d4+2 rounds until you're stoned.

daggaz
2007-10-31, 08:45 PM
thats on your end, temp buddy. sorry.

Icewalker
2007-10-31, 08:50 PM
hehehe, awesome cartoon. Beholder, iconic dungeon dweller.

Good times. I like the idea of delayed save or die, gives better opportunities for dramatic last actions before death.

BardicDuelist
2007-10-31, 09:00 PM
Hehheh. Leomund's secret stash: 1d4+2 rounds until you're stoned.

Fax..you never cease to be totally amazing.

Temp
2007-10-31, 09:02 PM
Think it's just you.

thats on your end, temp buddy. sorry.

Oh, thanks then.

I guess that means Beholders don't get intrinsic invisibility in 4E...

Chronos
2007-10-31, 09:07 PM
Personally, I've never liked the idea of save-or-die. No matter how it works out, it makes for a bad game. If you hit a run of bad luck and your wizard's SOD spells fail a few times in a row (or if the BBEG's succeed), the fight's harder than it should be. If your wizard's SOD succeeds relatively quickly, or the BBEG's fail, the fight's way too easy. If there are any SOD abilities in play, on either side, it's just impossible to get a fight which is a reasonable challenge.

AtomicKitKat
2007-10-31, 09:20 PM
Heh. The "delayed petrification" thing was in the D&D arcade games(Beholders, scorpionmen and some traps would hit you with a ray, and you had to wiggle your joystick a certain number of times within about 5 seconds, or you'd lose a life. Maybe it was supposed to represent the saving throw, but still.). Maybe that inspired them.

Aquillion
2007-10-31, 09:24 PM
Is it possible that "Save or Die later" would allow some chance to dispel or otherwise prevent the effect?Or enough time to, you know, full attack the caster. :smalltongue:

Seriously, though, if they take five rounds to take effect, they'll be pretty useless to most player characters. How many fights even last five rounds?

MCerberus
2007-10-31, 09:29 PM
Freaking sweet. I'm going Bodak hunting.


edit: assuming they put something so you don't auto die after a duration with nothing that can help you... freaking Bodaks.

Zincorium
2007-10-31, 09:31 PM
Or enough time to, you know, full attack the caster. :smalltongue:

Seriously, though, if they take five rounds to take effect, they'll be pretty useless to most player characters. How many fights even last five rounds?

How many fights in 3.5 last even five rounds? Not many. But I seem to remember them stating somewhere that that is one of the things they really, really want to get away from in 4th ed.

AslanCross
2007-10-31, 09:44 PM
How many fights in 3.5 last even five rounds? Not many. But I seem to remember them stating somewhere that that is one of the things they really, really want to get away from in 4th ed.

Meaning they want to make fights last longer?
That's kind of a mixed bag, I guess. I like being able to go on with the adventure after a couple of rounds, but the shortness of the encounters often makes duration on certain magical effects superfluous.

Green Bean
2007-10-31, 09:45 PM
Or enough time to, you know, full attack the caster. :smalltongue:

Seriously, though, if they take five rounds to take effect, they'll be pretty useless to most player characters. How many fights even last five rounds?

Well, judging by the cartoon, it isn't like you fire "Mage's Ray of Stone", and the opponent has 5 rounds of perfect health, then is instantly a statue. You slowly turn to stone, meaning your movement would likely get more and more limited, or you get heavier, etc.

Jorkens
2007-10-31, 09:58 PM
Is it possible that "Save or Die later" would allow some chance to dispel or otherwise prevent the effect?
Eg eating a lizard corpse?

(A yummy slime mold to anyone who got the reference...)

Feralgeist
2007-10-31, 09:58 PM
"Flesh.....hardening.....must take..dramatic...pose!"



".....best death ever!"

AslanCross
2007-10-31, 10:01 PM
"Flesh.....hardening.....must take..dramatic...pose!"



".....best death ever!"

Sir, you deserve a batch of steaming hot muffins and hot chocolate.

Mewtarthio
2007-10-31, 10:12 PM
Eg eating a lizard corpse?

(A yummy slime mold to anyone who got the reference...)

My guess is NetHack. But I'd feel guilty taking the mold because I've never played the game (I just know that you can eat corpses and that petrification can take several turns... don't ask me how).

Citizen Joe
2007-10-31, 10:32 PM
Yea, they're taking out the saves right? Attacker makes the roll, defender just uses various techniques to up the difficulty. So I could see SOD's turn into immediate effect on successful attack, then maintain concentration on the effect making subsequent checks for X rounds, at the end the result is permanent. If you can defeat the monster in the meantime, you can break the enchantment.

Mewtarthio
2007-10-31, 10:40 PM
Yea, they're taking out the saves right? Attacker makes the roll, defender just uses various techniques to up the difficulty. So I could see SOD's turn into immediate effect on successful attack, then maintain concentration on the effect making subsequent checks for X rounds, at the end the result is permanent. If you can defeat the monster in the meantime, you can break the enchantment.

Now, that would make sense in large groups, where the opposing controller is killing your guys while the defenders keep your leaders and strikers from getting to him to break his concentration. It doesn't make so much sense for a "boss fight." Thirty seconds of four guys attacking a monster that's busy concentrating isn't very epic.

Khanderas
2007-11-01, 03:41 AM
Or enough time to, you know, full attack the caster. :smalltongue:

Seriously, though, if they take five rounds to take effect, they'll be pretty useless to most player characters. How many fights even last five rounds?
If I was a beholder and a group of adventurers came to my caves to kill me, easily dispatched (or dismembered) my minions I would not hover in a dead end without space to fly over them all with a handy, trapped escape route.
I would first of all zap them in a merry chase with petrification and other you die eye rays. Without the delay it would be alot of resses and frustration for the group, with delay you can make them pay for scrolls, protections and other expendible resources and frustrate them alittle. Not just "a ray zaps you from the shadows above, roll or die".

I like it. I dont like that my job blocks the cartoon itself. Ill get to it later.

EDIT: The point I MENT to write was that 5 round delays in battle might be ineffective, but unless you suprised the Beholder (and he is smart nuff to trap/minion/whatever his lair so it would be hard at best) you are hit with it beforehand, problebly several times.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-01, 03:55 AM
I like the idea of flesh to stone being a cumalative penalty to dex until you turn to stone. That kind of mechanic would work for finger of death as well, except with con instead of dex. That way, instead of *urk* *fall over dead*, it is a slow and painful death. Like a magic induced heart attack.

Dhavaer
2007-11-01, 03:57 AM
I like the idea of flesh to stone being a cumalative penalty to dex until you turn to stone. That kind of mechanic would work for finger of death as well, except with con instead of dex. That way, instead of *urk* *fall over dead*, it is a slow and painful death. Like a magic induced heart attack.

I think PHB2 had a spell exactly like that. Curse of stone, or something like that.

lord_khaine
2007-11-01, 04:15 AM
Eg eating a lizard corpse?

i suspect you are refering to dragonlance, though there it wasnt nececary to eat the lizard.

Citizen Joe
2007-11-01, 07:53 AM
Now, that would make sense in large groups, where the opposing controller is killing your guys while the defenders keep your leaders and strikers from getting to him to break his concentration. It doesn't make so much sense for a "boss fight." Thirty seconds of four guys attacking a monster that's busy concentrating isn't very epic.

Well in this case, concentration is more like "can't use this power on anyone else until effect becomes permanent or he shifts it to someone else." not Can't do anything but concentrate.

Boss fights often involve peripherals that you need to take down before the boss is vulnerable. This could be the legs of a Halo Scarab battle, it could be helper monkeys, it could be a squad of medusa. In the case of the beholder, it has ten eyestalks.

AtomicKitKat
2007-11-01, 09:34 AM
I think PHB2 had a spell exactly like that. Curse of stone, or something like that.

There is that Vile Rigidity disease from Book of Vile Darkness. Gives you NR while lowering your Dex, till eventually, you suffocate inside a tough cocoon of your own flesh.

AKA_Bait
2007-11-01, 01:28 PM
Hehheh. Leomund's secret stash: 1d4+2 rounds until you're stoned.

so you really ARE from california... seems like that should be a breath weapon though... cone of sleep is close...

As for the idea of turning save or die into save or die slowly over a period determined by concentration idea I'm totally in favor of it. I think one of the reasons that most encounters at higher levels don't take that long is that instant save or die spells are so present in the game. At upper levels fights should take a while, either to get your mitts/spells on the sneaky bad guy or to beat the stuffing out of them enough. Dramatic tension people!

shadowdemon_lord
2007-11-01, 01:56 PM
I hope to god massive damage goes the way of the rest of SOD, or is simply taken out completely. It's just not very interesting when every single attack from your tank is a low powered SOD attack. I also like the fix they've thrown on SOD. Taking away the abilities of monsters to turn you to stone would totally ruin some of the flavor of D&D, but this is a nice happy medium.