OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[super dark33]

I am going to bugbear-debate anyone on any topic from now on.

[Nemoricus]

Describing battle between clerics of different beliefs as "spirited philosophical debate" always amuses me.

And good on Minrah for calling Redcloak out.

[nrwillick]

Oona is wise, pretty words are pretty.

[Omomuro]

Man, Redcloak's getting a real philosophical pummelling (and real pummelling) in this one.

[Quebbster]

I have missed Greyview.

[Aron Times]

Oh man, this is kind of like when Xykon and the Monster in the Darkness just stood there watching Miko beat the crap out of Redcloak.

[hroþila]

Minrah is spitting so much truth and she's hitting so close to home than even Redcloak might end up having to face the facts at this rate. I don't expect him to drop Plan A (at least not until the very end), but he might be forced to stop thinking of Plan B as a viable alternative? He doesn't have so much riding on that, emotionally speaking. It probably won't happen right now but if this has sowed a seed of doubt in his mind about Plan B that could be very important later on.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I have missed Greyview.

He is the absolute best. But I do have to also agree with Oona: sometimes, they are very pretty words indeed.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

I see why Oona is leader of her tribe. Much wisdom, yes.

Also, how odd is it, that Oona and V have the same idea of the degree of violence a typical religious (talkingaboutinuniverseheremodsdon’thurtme) debate entails?

[Shale]

A world with just humans? 2/10, would not recommend

[elros]

How many levels does Maxrah have? I think she must have some ranks in intimidation with those burns.

[Shining Wrath]

Bugbear politics are similar to two year old politics.

Maxrah has definitely earned herself a spot on Redcloak's to-do list. Which may be fatal next episode - she didn't like Unholy Blight very well. OTOH, she lit Redcloak up pretty well there. Why Durkon doesn't get them both the hell out of Dodge confuzzles me.

If Oona is hearing and believing at least a little, what about Xykon?

[Andrew Markham]

Minrah is really bringing something special to OOTS. Her perspective is...refreshingly direct. Maybe cause she sees things from an outside perspective. Either way, I love her contributions so far.

[Fyraltari]

Why Durkon doesn't get them both the hell out of Dodge confuzzles me.
How do you propose he does that?


If Oona is hearing and believing at least a little, what about Xykon?
He might be, but there’s not many places he could be hiding. Can he cast flight and invisibility silently?

[BaronOfHell]

Minrah is spitting so much truth and she's hitting so close to home than even Redcloak might end up having to face the facts at this rate.

The way I see it, much of this is news to RC, and it is really a lot of information at once, where he doesn't know what is true. Therefore it is next to impossible to gather what RC will take out of this debate and what he may forget to create a coherent world view that still fits his own beliefs.

[EmperorSarda]

I think this means Oona's life is forfeit. And Greyview's.

As soon as Durkon and MAXrah leave, Redcloak has no choice to silence them unless they (accidentally or otherwise) spill the beans to Xykon.

[Metastachydium]

Redcloak (…) might end up having to face the facts at this rate. I don't expect him to drop Plan A (at least not until the very end), but he might be forced to stop thinking of Plan B as a viable alternative?

Well, he definitely should. Plan B is just stupid, wrong and should not sound particularly good from his perspective.

[hroþila]

The way I see it, much of this is news to RC, and it is really a lot of information at once, where he doesn't know what is true. Therefore it is next to impossible to gather what RC will take out of this debate and what he may forget to create a coherent world view that still fits his own beliefs.
I didn't mean the bit about the Dark One not surviving the transition between worlds, I meant the bit where he's putting imaginary potential goblins ahead of real living ones. That bit was always true about the Plan as formulated by Redcloak himself.

[Schroeswald]

I love when we spend a week debating random ideas and “why didn’t [blank] happen”, and then [blank] happens on the very next page

[Fyraltari]

I think this means Oona's life is forfeit. And Greyview's.

As soon as Durkon and MAXrah leave, Redcloak has no choice to silence them unless they (accidentally or otherwise) spill the beans to Xykon.

This rather depends on how many people get here before the fight is over.

Killing witnesses doesn’t work when people witness you doing it.

[Griffincat]

Minrah's not wrong - everyone that Redcloak truly loved (his siblings and parents) are already gone.

[Nightcanon]

Superb! Go Minrah! Interesting to hear Oona's perspective on this too- I doubt she'd be hugely keen to be sacrificed to the greater glory of the goblin bargaining position in the next world.

[Metastachydium]

The way I see it, much of this is news to RC, and it is really a lot of information at once, where he doesn't know what is true. Therefore it is next to impossible to gather what RC will take out of this debate and what he may forget to create a coherent world view that still fits his own beliefs.

Exactly. Believing stuff you cannot verify which comes from your enemies is anything but rational, especially if your believing it would be convenient for them and extremely inconvenient for you.

[EmperorSarda]

Killing witnesses doesn’t work when people witness you doing it.

Redcloak is patient enough to wait for the right time to take them out. Either way, they're a liability to him now.

Unrelated, but something Oona didn't say about why she didn't jump in first is that Redcloak attacked first. She seems the type of bugbear to care about that sort of thing, fairness and all.
Besides, even with this fighting, they're still trying to convince Redcloak. Redcloak is the one trying to kill them. She probably thinks he doesn't need the help.

[EmperorSarda]

Oh, and this whole exchange with Redcloak validates Roy's reasoning for wanting to take Xykon out first, then negotiate with Redcloak.

With Xykon out of the picture then there is no hope for the plan. That's the only way Redcloak is going to listen, if he even does.

[Bartok]

I wonder if this Redcloak must die, and the artefact cloak's next wearer will be the one to heal the world...

[Metastachydium]

Besides, even with this fighting, they're still trying to convince Redcloak. Redcloak is the one trying to kill them. She probably thinks he doesn't need the help.

And, in fact, Redcloak's doing fine. Thus far he bloodied both his opponents, found a way to keep one busy and had the time to heal himself up.

[EmperorSarda]

I wonder if this Redcloak must die, and the artefact cloak's next wearer will be the one to heal the world...

Are there any other clerics of the Dark One capable of casting 9th level spells?

[HolyDraconus]

I do find it interesting that Oona was willing to let the debating continue. And has heard both parties arguments, enough so that even with the reveal of listening will probably continue to stay on the sideline. Redcloak dismissed the claim about the Dark One not making it, but considering that neither cleric is trying to kill him and is STILL trying to debate him, he may have to own up to some things he didnt want to sooner rather than later.

Pretty sure Roy isn't an idiot and even after shooting down Durkons plan, will know that he did it anyway once he noticed he was missing and immediately planned around it. Im not going to be surprised if the gang shows up to interrupt this.

[ebarde]

The new bearer would still need to have a 9th spell slot, which is something I highly doubt any other Dark One worshipper is anywhere near to having access to.

[Fyraltari]

Redcloak is patient enough to wait for the right time to take them out. Either way, they're a liability to him now.
Problem is, Oona might be smart enough to guess that and ensure her safety by giving the bugbears a message for Xykon if she croaks.

I just don’t think Redcloak is going to get out of having to justify his actions here to her.


Besides, even with this fighting, they're still trying to convince Redcloak. Redcloak is the one trying to kill them. She probably thinks he doesn't need the help.

Nah, by the end of the page they’re just calling him out on his bull.

[Skull the Troll]

Redcloak just looks so irritated in the last panel.

[Djibril]

{scrubbed}

[Metastachydium]

neither cleric is trying to kill him and is STILL trying to debate him

Well, one is in no position to try and do that, while the other keeps hitting him with a huge electrically charged hammer, though.

[hroþila]

Well, he definitely should. Plan B is just stupid, wrong and should not sound particularly good from his perspective.
It made sense from the perspective of someone who thought the goblins had literally nothing to lose, that they had it so bad that any risk was worth it. Redcloak and Right-Eye were living in a swamp with a few impoverished goblins, after all. Plan B made the most sense in case the gods demolished the world safely and every goblinoid soul went on to the Dark One's afterlife as if they had died in a more normal way, although Redcloak still said quite explicitly that he was all for Plan B as an acceptable outcome even if it resulted in the Snarl unmaking every soul.

Regardless, Redcloak has seen more of the world out of that swamp now, and Gobbotopia exists. If he can look at this rationally (i.e. if he doesn't feel he needs to keep Plan B on the table just to feel his life choices were worth it), he might well reconsider it. But I wouldn't be surprised if he believes any change to the Plan would be an unacceptable compromise and a threat to his world view.

[Fyraltari]

snip

Methinks, there is no place this line of discussion leads to that is forum rules-approved.

[Skull the Troll]

This rather depends on how many people get here before the fight is over.

Killing witnesses doesn’t work when people witness you doing it.

Indeed. Any plan where you lose your hat is a bad plan!

[Shining Wrath]

How do you propose he does that?


He might be, but there’s not many places he could be hiding. Can he cast flight and invisibility silently?

We know from Minrah that Durkon and she planned for the possibility that Redcloak would attack. They should execute that plan, which had damn well better involve getting out of the enemy camp before the epic lich gets involved. Level 13 + level 12 might, possibly, on a lucky day, take out level 18 (Redcloak), but not the whole of Team Evil, and they know it. Therefore they must have a plan to escape, and I want them to use it.


The way I see it, much of this is news to RC, and it is really a lot of information at once, where he doesn't know what is true. Therefore it is next to impossible to gather what RC will take out of this debate and what he may forget to create a coherent world view that still fits his own beliefs.

Redcloak being evil, he will attribute evil motives to Durkon and Minrah - he doesn't believe anyone is actually good. The "good" are hypocrites in his world view, which is part of why Minrah telling him he's the hypocrite is infuriating. Therefore, he'll believe only the parts that mean he should do what benefits him - not goblinkind, not TDO, but him. Evil is as evil does, to quote Oona in her Forrest Gump aspect.


This rather depends on how many people get here before the fight is over.

Killing witnesses doesn’t work when people witness you doing it.

As we saw in the battle with Vaarsuvius, Xykon has a +8 racial modifier to listen checks. If he's in the camp at all, he heard Minrah's "Thor's Might", which seems to have been shouted - and then he has been listening since then. Xykon will have the same biases as Redcloak - that is, to attribute malign intent to the dwarves - but he is also deeply suspicious of Redcloak. He'd betray Redcloak in a heartbeat, so that means Redcloak would do the same to him. Therefore, killing Oona and Greyview might actually backfire on Redcloak, as it would be a non-trivial battle, turn the bugbear village against him, and reduce his resources for the battle he'd have anyway with Xykon, who'd take killing the witnesses as confirmation.

[Metastachydium]

It made sense from the perspective of someone who thought the goblins had literally nothing to lose, that they had it so bad that any risk was worth it. Redcloak and Right-Eye were living in a swamp with a few impoverished goblins, after all.

Even then, he had no solid evidence that the Dark One will actually have a say when the new world is made.


Regardless, Redcloak has seen more of the world out of that swamp now, and Gobbotopia exists. If he can look at this rationally (i.e. if he doesn't feel he needs to keep Plan B on the table just to feel his life choices were worth it), he might well reconsider it.

Yes, unlike dropping the Plan at this point (which would not be a rational move), dropping Plan B would be more than reasonable and it should happen as soon as possible.

[ReaderAt2046]

It occurs to me that there's one more piece of information Redcloak is missing: That sealing the Snarl would be an ongoing process rather than a one-shot thing. According to Thor, even if TDO seals the existing rifts, new ones will form in a few centuries and TDO will be needed to spot-weld those. So helping to seal the Snarl would give TDO all the same advantages as the original Plan (he can effectively say "Treat my people equally or I will unleash the Snarl"), but with much better optics and consequently better relations with other deities.

Of course, even if Durkon explained this, Redcloak would need to 1) believe him, and 2) be willing to give up on the Plan, neither of which he seems inclined to do.

[KorvinStarmast]

Man, Redcloak's getting a real philosophical pummelling (and real pummelling) in this one. Minrocks continues to rock Redcloak's shaky self justifications. Feeling much Shaleshoe love. I still think this whole argument/debate is a set up for a surprise coming from inviso kidnappers or Fiend plot once the tension ratchets up with the arrival of Xykon, the rest of Order, both, and perhaps others.
And while I am at it, I love That Hammer that Durkon very kindly shares with Minrah. Nice weapon.

A world with just humans? 2/10, would not recommend You may wish to consider visiting with Mr Musk and book a flght on his next launch ... :smallcool:

Why Durkon doesn't get them both the hell out of Dodge confuzzles me. Because we needed Oona and Greyview to arrive on screen. Yay, Greyview! :smallsmile: Words are just pretty hat we put on ugly truths.

I think this means Oona's life is forfeit. And Greyview's. As soon as Durkon and MAXrah leave, Redcloak has no choice to silence them unless they (accidentally or otherwise) spill the beans to Xykon. Which strikes me as a prep for the old director's cue "Xykon, enter screen right ..."
Minrah's not wrong - everyone that Redcloak truly loved (his siblings and parents) are already gone. And sadly, I'll suggest that he doesn't love himself. I am pretty sure that Redcloak's self-loathing (which IIRC is shown in SoD) will bubble up again soon.

I'm willing - we goblins are willing ... At the moment, he gets to direct that emotional energy at Minrah and Durkon.

Indeed. Any plan where you lose your hat is a bad plan! Hang onto your hat! :smallbiggrin: (Gratiuitous reference to Young Frankenstein)

As to this bit from Minrah: I don't think you really care about them - you just feel bad about not caring.

Not sure what they call this in D&D 3.5, but in 5e this would be a successful Insight check. :smallcool:

[Sesharan]

You know that stuff everyone's been saying for the last couple pages about how awesome Minrah is? That again, but like times a hundred. I agree with Oona— Minrah's words are very pretty indeed.

I also can't help but note that Durkon is casting an awfully small number of spells in this combat. Zero, actually. It's enough to make me wonder if that's a deliberate play to try and drain Redcloak's spell slots...

[deltamire]

God, now I just want about a dozen pages of Oona and Minrah talking. Two very blunt, to the point people who are completely different in their viewpoints and experiences just dukin' it out.

Also, go Minrah! Back in the Inbetween Months between the new book and UD, people were being dismissive of her and her compelling inclusion in the cast, and she's smashed those expectations with a bang. Or a boom, in the case of lightning, I suppose.

[Snowtwo]

Minrah proves herself to be awesome again. Spot on with the attack against his hypocrisy and lies about caring about Goblins!

[Metastachydium]

It occurs to me that there's one more piece of information Redcloak is missing: That sealing the Snarl would be an ongoing process rather than a one-shot thing. According to Thor, even if TDO seals the existing rifts, new ones will form in a few centuries and TDO will be needed to spot-weld those. So helping to seal the Snarl would give TDO all the same advantages as the original Plan (he can effectively say "Treat my people equally or I will unleash the Snarl"), but with much better optics and consequently better relations with other deities.

Of course, even if Durkon explained this, Redcloak would need to 1) believe him, and 2) be willing to give up on the Plan, neither of which he seems inclined to do.

1. As far as Redcloak and Big Purple know, the Plan could work. They do not know anything about the Rift-sealing procedure, and they have no reason to trust Durkon or the gods.
2. I also tend to agree that spot-welding would be a good permanent leverage. However, dancrillis made a fairly good point in the last thread: Thor never cared to explain how the procedure works, and for all we (and everyone bar a few gods) know, it could very well just make it possible for the gods to access the Dark ONe's quiddity and to use it any number of times, regardless whether he likes it or not.

[Fyraltari]

Indeed. Any plan where you lose your hat is a bad plan!
AYYYYYE! I knew someone was bound to make that joke.

We know from Minrah that Durkon and she planned for the possibility that Redcloak would attack. They should execute that plan, which had damn well better involve getting out of the enemy camp before the epic lich gets involved. Level 13 + level 12 might, possibly, on a lucky day, take out level 18 (Redcloak), but not the whole of Team Evil, and they know it. Therefore they must have a plan to escape, and I want them to use it.
While I hope they do have a better plan than « sucker punch the goblin and hope for the best », it doesn’t look like they do.


As we saw in the battle with Vaarsuvius, Xykon has a +8 racial modifier to listen checks. If he's in the camp at all, he heard Minrah's "Thor's Might", which seems to have been shouted - and then he has been listening since then. Xykon will have the same biases as Redcloak - that is, to attribute malign intent to the dwarves - but he is also deeply suspicious of Redcloak. He'd betray Redcloak in a heartbeat, so that means Redcloak would do the same to him. Therefore, killing Oona and Greyview might actually backfire on Redcloak, as it would be a non-trivial battle, turn the bugbear village against him, and reduce his resources for the battle he'd have anyway with Xykon, who'd take killing the witnesses as confirmation.
Xykon doesn’t have any issue understanding good actions. He just chooses to be a prick because he’s not a very realistic character.

I also don’t think Xykon would attack Redcloak even if knowing that Redcloak was negotiating with the ennemy. As long as his phylactery is secure (which he believes it is) this is all a game to him, and he’d want to see where Redcloak is going with it.

[Metastachydium]

I also don’t think Xykon would attack Redcloak even if knowing that Redcloak was negotiating with the ennemy. As long as his phylactery is secure (which he believes it is) this is all a game to him, and he’d want to see where Redcloak is going with it.

Also, he does know that Redcloak's (nominal or actual) goal is to make the goblinoids' life better through the Plan (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0832.html). He also does (or, at any rate, ought to) know that meddling with the Gates might bring about the end of the world. Redcloak did not say anything that incriminates him thus far.

[Trafalgar]

"Words are just pretty hat we put on ugly truths"

There should be a Greyview quote on every page of the OOTS 2021 calendar.

[hroþila]

Also, he does know that Redcloak's (nominal or actual) goal is to make the goblinoids' life better through the Plan. He also does (or, at any rate, ought to) know that meddling with the Gates might bring about the end of the world. Redcloak did not say anything that incriminates him thus far.
Plus, Xykon expects to have to negotiate at some point. He envisioned using the Snarl once or twice against uppity nations and the rest falling in line, so he and Redcloak would have to talk to them eventually, if only to accept their surrender.

[Frozenstep]

I knew Redcloak would ignore the idea that the Dark One might not survive. It's just too much of a convenient fact, it works too well as a threat. Hopefully though, the Dark One is listening in. Redcloak doesn't need to change his mind or cast the 9th level spell, if the Dark One just comes out and talks to Thor, that's a win.

[Quebbster]

You know that stuff everyone's been saying for the last couple pages about how awesome Minrah is? That again, but like times a hundred. I agree with Oona— Minrah's words are very pretty indeed.

I also can't help but note that Durkon is casting an awfully small number of spells in this combat. Zero, actually. It's enough to make me wonder if that's a deliberate play to try and drain Redcloak's spell slots...

He did cast Wind Walk before the combat though. Not sure how many slots that was.

[Lerch]

Not sure what they call this in D&D 3.5, but in 5e this would be a successful Insight check. :smallcool:

Sense Motive or Wisdom check.


It Bears repeating. "Words are just pretty hat we put on ugly truths." And the prettier the words...the uglier the truth.

[Dausuul]

The class and level geekery folks should adjust Minrah's stats. She's doing amazingly well against a far higher-level foe; she obviously has levels in some class that gets Smite Self-Deception as a class feature.

I can't imagine Redcloak is going to back off combat right now--I'm expecting a berserk explosion next comic--but clearly some seeds have been sown that will bear fruit later in the book.

At the same time... what are Durkon and Minrah doing? They aren't trying to escape. Durkon isn't even casting spells, it looks like he's just doing Full Defense. They seem to be engaged in delaying tactics. But what are they delaying for? Betting on the rest of the Order to arrive before Xykon does seems like lousy odds to me. They must have something else up their sleeves.

[Lheticus]

So um, I'm going to bring up the bugbear in the room (well the other bugbear, people have already talked about Oona sidelining herself on purpose) and say...isn't it a little incongruous that Roy had to learn a special technique in order to have even a % chance to interrupt a spellcasting, yet Minrah pulls it off just by smashing Redcloak with a hammer?

Thinking on it, I see two plausible explanations:

a) The combination of the hammer blow and the psychological warfare was at least enough to force a Concentration check, which Redcloak failed; or

b) The hammer, at that time, is quite a bit larger than Roy's sword and I'm erroneously comparing the force from being smacked with a stick to the force from a blow slightly more extreme than a Looney-Tunes anvil from above.

I'm curious if anyone has additional thoughts.

[Metastachydium]

I knew Redcloak would ignore the idea that the Dark One might not survive. It's just too much of a convenient fact, it works too well as a threat. Hopefully though, the Dark One is listening in. Redcloak doesn't need to change his mind or cast the 9th level spell, if the Dark One just comes out and talks to Thor, that's a win.

I doubt that Big Purple would be willing to negotiate directly without the Gate under his control. He's way too paranoid for that. This is why negotiating through emissaries/proxies is a logical solution to the whole conundrum, even if we set aside the fact that this necessarily means that established major characters play a part in the deal.

[Dausuul]

So um, I'm going to bring up the bugbear in the room (well the other bugbear, people have already talked about Oona sidelining herself on purpose) and say...isn't it a little incongruous that Roy had to learn a special technique in order to have even a % chance to interrupt a spellcasting, yet Minrah pulls it off just by smashing Redcloak with a hammer?

Thinking on it, I see two plausible explanations:

a) The combination of the hammer blow and the psychological warfare was at least enough to force a Concentration check, which Redcloak failed; or

b) The hammer, at that time, is quite a bit larger than Roy's sword and I'm erroneously comparing the force from being smacked with a stick to the force from a blow slightly more extreme than a Looney-Tunes anvil from above.

I'm curious if anyone has additional thoughts.
Other possibilities:

c) Minrah is readying an attack each round. She is sacrificing her regular action, in exchange for being able to whack Redcloak even if he casts defensively. Roy's feat probably allows him to take a regular opportunity attack and still get a full round of normal attacks too. Or else it just imposes massive penalties on the Concentration check.

d) The hammer is a minor artifact and has special powers designed to mess up evil clerics. (Presumably it was intended for use on clerics of Loki, but Redcloak works too.)

[Fyraltari]

So um, I'm going to bring up the bugbear in the room (well the other bugbear, people have already talked about Oona sidelining herself on purpose) and say...isn't it a little incongruous that Roy had to learn a special technique in order to have even a % chance to interrupt a spellcasting, yet Minrah pulls it off just by smashing Redcloak with a hammer?

Thinking on it, I see two plausible explanations:

a) The combination of the hammer blow and the psychological warfare was at least enough to force a Concentration check, which Redcloak failed; or

b) The hammer, at that time, is quite a bit larger than Roy's sword and I'm erroneously comparing the force from being smacked with a stick to the force from a blow slightly more extreme than a Looney-Tunes anvil from above.

I'm curious if anyone has additional thoughts.
Minrah got a lucky hit in. I think we’ve seen other casters get interrupted before.

Also, the other bugbear in the room, is the one with the horned mask who left before the negotiation. What are they up to?

[KorvinStarmast]

Thinking on it, I see two plausible explanations:

a) The combination of the hammer blow and the psychological warfare was at least enough to force a Concentration check, which Redcloak failed; or

b) The hammer, at that time, is quite a bit larger than Roy's sword and I'm erroneously comparing the force from being smacked with a stick to the force from a blow slightly more extreme than a Looney-Tunes anvil from above. It's not just "a hammer" but is rather a Hammer that Thor made and gave to his worshippers (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1146.html), but had been hidden in his temple for *reasons* (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1154.html). Not sure if it is an artifact, but it's likely a legendary weapon, a god touched weapon, and I note that Reddy is getting both the schwack from the hammer and the zapp from the lightning in the big panel where Minrah really lays down the verbal hurt as well. I think it does at least two kinds of damage per attack.

[Warder]

So um, I'm going to bring up the bugbear in the room (well the other bugbear, people have already talked about Oona sidelining herself on purpose) and say...isn't it a little incongruous that Roy had to learn a special technique in order to have even a % chance to interrupt a spellcasting, yet Minrah pulls it off just by smashing Redcloak with a hammer?

Thinking on it, I see two plausible explanations:

a) The combination of the hammer blow and the psychological warfare was at least enough to force a Concentration check, which Redcloak failed; or

b) The hammer, at that time, is quite a bit larger than Roy's sword and I'm erroneously comparing the force from being smacked with a stick to the force from a blow slightly more extreme than a Looney-Tunes anvil from above.

I'm curious if anyone has additional thoughts.

It was just a failed concentration check by Redcloak. Casting spells in melee makes you subject to an attack of opportunity unless you cast defensively, and if you're injured while casting you have to make a concentration check or lose the spell.

[HolyDraconus]

Well, one is in no position to try and do that, while the other keeps hitting him with a huge electrically charged hammer, though.

Cause he keeps trying to cast spells instead of talking. Initially.

[Sesharan]

So um, I'm going to bring up the bugbear in the room (well the other bugbear, people have already talked about Oona sidelining herself on purpose) and say...isn't it a little incongruous that Roy had to learn a special technique in order to have even a % chance to interrupt a spellcasting, yet Minrah pulls it off just by smashing Redcloak with a hammer?

I'm not an expert on 3.5's Concentration rules, but I know that Summon Monster has a casting time of a full round, meaning that Minrah can attack and force a Concentration check without needing to ready an action or make an AoO to attack while he's casting. Given her current size and weapon, she'd deal a fair amount of damage with that attack, making for a pretty tough Concentration check. Roy's Spellsplinter Maneuver would probably make for a tougher Concentration check, though— it's just that Redcloak got unlucky this time.

[dancrilis]

Have to say I like Oona and Greyview they bring an interesting prespective to things - think that are the stars of this strip anyway, but do hope that they get involved, might be nice to see them in action as we haven't seen that yet.


How do you propose he does that?


I was thinking he might grab her and word of recall away, but it looks like they might be trying to wait out the rounds until they can turn to gas again instead.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Fyraltari]

I was thinking he might grab her and word of recall away, but it looks like they might be trying to wait out the rounds until they can turn to gas again instead.

Can he do that? I mean, the Giant has stated he deliberately avoid giving teleportation to his protagonists.

[The Pilgrim]

I love how Redcloak is constantly switching beween "I" and "We". Meaning that not even himself believes that his talking is representative of the Goblinoid People.

[Fyraltari]

I love how Redcloak is constantly switching beween "I" and "We". Meaning that not even himself believes that his talking is representative of the Goblinoid People.

Yeah, it’s a nice Freudian slip.

[understatement]

Wow, what a strip!

First: dang, no periodic elemental. No sodium upcoming, sorry.

Second: Yes! Oona's back!

Third: Okay, Maxrah's smackdown on RC was too satisfying to put into words, so I'll just a huge smilie here instead. :smallbiggrin:

[Reboot]

Can he do that? I mean, the Giant has stated he deliberately avoid giving teleportation to his protagonists.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wordOfRecall.htm
It's on the standard cleric spell list. Geez. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0953.html)

(The bigger problem is "You must designate the sanctuary when you prepare the spell, and it must be a very familiar place." At best, they would zap to the Mechane.)

[Fyraltari]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wordOfRecall.htm
It's on the standard cleric spell list. Geez. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0953.html)

Well excuse me for not being familiar with a random spell of a game I’ve never played.

[Dragonus45]

Gosh, I only wish they had gotten to see occasions like when RC sent off waves of goblins literally buttered up and garnished to be devoured to save him and X some spells slots.

[The Pilgrim]

This rather depends on how many people get here before the fight is over.

Killing witnesses doesn’t work when people witness you doing it.

It works if you kill the witnesses of the killing of the witnesses, then kill the witnesses of the killing of the witnesses of the killing of the witnesses... and so on. It's standard procedure for seasoned murderhobbos D&D players.

[KorvinStarmast]

Third: Okay, Maxrah's smackdown on RC was too satisfying to put into words, so I'll just a huge smilie here instead. :smallbiggrin:
Oh yeah? Well, I got a huger smilie! :biggrin:
(And yeah: Minrocks!)

[dancrilis]

Can he do that? I mean, the Giant has stated he deliberately avoid giving teleportation to his protagonists.

The spell certainly exists in universe and is on the standard cleric spell list - so likely yes he can, but only if he prepared it, and when he prepared it choose a place it would bring him to.

Subject to intrepration he could return to the Mechane but if it has moved since he prepared the spell that might be disallowed and so he would need to go to somewhere more familiar (like his home) - which if it is 120 miles away he can likely get back to the Order in two hours using Wind Walk but if it is 1200miles away it would take 20 hours etc so whether that would be practical is a different matter (if The Giant is intending to have him use it I suspect it will be the Mechane - but then I was expecting him to be gone already).

[Dausuul]

Can he do that? I mean, the Giant has stated he deliberately avoid giving teleportation to his protagonists.
Yes, but the reason for that is to prevent the protagonists from trivializing the challenges they face. From a writer's perspective, teleportation is second only to resurrection as a source of plot headaches.

Word of recall is extremely limited; it requires a sanctuary that is a "very familiar place." Durkon can't use it to teleport to the gate. He can't use it to teleport to the Oracle and get questions answered. He could teleport back to dwarven lands, but then he would be stuck there with no way to return. Pretty much the only place he could go without abandoning the party would be the Mechane. If Rich needs to give him and Minrah an escape hatch here, word of recall should not cause any plot-related damage.

Of course, if Rich doesn't want them to have that escape hatch, he could also decide that the Mechane isn't familiar enough, which would rule out word of recall entirely. The rules leave that decision up to the DM, or in this case the writer.

[KorvinStarmast]

Gosh, I only wish they had gotten to see occasions like when RC sent off waves of goblins literally buttered up and garnished to be devoured to save him and X some spells slots. Weren't those hobgoblins (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html), and wasn't Reddy still working out his aggression from being bullied by hobgoblins in his youth (or something like that?) (He eventually saw the light during the great battle (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html) {What the Hell is Wrong With Me?} but that was quite a bit later).

[Potatopeelerkin]

Oona is back, with more quality lines! I love her. I wonder if she'll come around to the Order's side in the end? I would like that.

[KorvinStarmast]

Oona is back, with more quality lines! I love her. I wonder if she'll come around to the Order's side in the end? I would like that. Hmm, betting the under on that. She and her village have benefitted from their association with Xykon and Redcloak, have they not? She seems a practical sort.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I was thinking he might grab her and word of recall away, but it looks like they might be trying to wait out the rounds until they can turn to gas again instead.

As others have mentioned, WoR can be awkward to use for a cleric on the move - if he hasn't updated the safe location recently, he could be teleported back to, say, the Mechane or his mom's house or the like.

I agree that they might be stalling for five turns so they can smoke out of this place.

GW

[Fyraltari]

Yes, but the reason for that is to prevent the protagonists from trivializing the challenges they face. From a writer's perspective, teleportation is second only to resurrection as a source of plot headaches.

Word of recall is extremely limited; it requires a sanctuary that is a "very familiar place." Durkon can't use it to teleport to the gate. He can't use it to teleport to the Oracle and get questions answered. He could teleport back to dwarven lands, but then he would be stuck there with no way to return. Pretty much the only place he could go without abandoning the party would be the Mechane. If Rich needs to give him and Minrah an escape hatch here, word of recall should not cause any plot-related damage.

Of course, if Rich doesn't want them to have that escape hatch, he could also decide that the Mechane isn't familiar enough, which would rule out word of recall entirely. The rules leave that decision up to the DM, or in this case the writer.

Word of Recall’s purpose seems to be a east-ditch escape. As such it definitely trivializes the challenges faced by the characters as it allows them to just nope out of a lost fight. Like, say, that one time Durkon was caught by a vampiric snake-man.

There’s a reason Morrowind disabled the equivalent spells inside the final boss’s final chamber.

[Metastachydium]

Cause he keeps trying to cast spells instead of talking. Initially.

Quite on the contrary, I'd say. He focuses too much on the conversation to fight well. Just look at the first panel of page no. 2.

[Potatopeelerkin]

Hmm, betting the under on that. She and her village have benefitted from their association with Xykon and Redcloak, have they not? She seems a practical sort.

They've benefited from the supply of monster parts, but that's really only a temporary boon. Oona's already established they don't have strong feelings (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html) about TDO, and are probably just in it for personal economic reasons rather than caring about the affairs of gods the way Redcloak does.

We don't know how informed they are about the actual stakes. Perhaps they'd feel differently if they knew how likely their plan could end in death for them all even if it was successful.

[Dausuul]

Hmm, betting the under on that. She and her village have benefitted from their association with Xykon and Redcloak, have they not? She seems a practical sort.
Being practical means that she isn't likely to be on board with Redcloak's Plan B, which she has just heard in full.

Of course, that means Redcloak is likely to kill her for the same reason he killed Tsukiko: He can't risk her revealing the truth to Xykon.

[dancrilis]

Being practical means that she isn't likely to be on board with Redcloak's Plan B, which she has just heard in full.

Of course, that means Redcloak is likely to kill her for the same reason he killed Tsukiko: He can't risk her revealing the truth to Xykon.

Nothing has been said that Xykon doesn't already know.

[Potatopeelerkin]

Being practical means that she isn't likely to be on board with Redcloak's Plan B, which she has just heard in full.

Of course, that means Redcloak is likely to kill her for the same reason he killed Tsukiko: He can't risk her revealing the truth to Xykon.

Oh no, don't say that. :smallfrown:

I think it's unlikely she'd pose a threat to Redcloak on that front, though. I doubt she has any particular loyalty to Xykon, why would she reveal anything to him? Tsukiko was a very different situation, since she liked Xykon and hated Redcloak.


Nothing has been said that Xykon doesn't already know.

Xykon thinks the plan is to make him ruler of the world. Ending the world for the good of goblinkind isn't really on his agenda.

[Nogster]

...and and... -Minrah

Stutter or typo?

[Sesharan]

Stutter or typo?

Given that previous word stutters (including one in the same sentence and one in the previous panel) have included a hyphen or ellipsis to indicate the stuttering, I'm guessing typo.

[Dausuul]

Word of Recall’s purpose seems to be a east-ditch escape. As such it definitely trivializes the challenges faced by the characters as it allows them to just nope out of a lost fight. Like, say, that one time Durkon was caught by a vampiric snake-man.
Oh, come on. Being able to bail out of a fight is not trivializing on anywhere near the scale of being able to go wherever you like whenever you like.

If you were fighting in the first place, there was a reason for it (or the writer wasn't doing their job). You had something to win, or something to lose. Noping out of the fight means you don't win and you do lose. Whatever the stakes were, you forfeited them to the villain.

The only case where word of recall would have changed anything is the Malack fight, and there are any number of reasons Durkon might not have used it there--the simplest being that he just didn't prepare it that day. A 6th-level slot is a big honkin' spell slot to devote to an escape hatch that will leave you stranded far from the action, if you don't have a specific reason to believe you will need it.

[Metastachydium]

Being practical means that she isn't likely to be on board with Redcloak's Plan B, which she has just heard in full.


Well, she's not exactly happy with the current lot of her tribe (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html), and the whole shtick of her folks is taking huge risks (i.e. hunting monsters that reside in Kraagor's Tomb) for little reward.

[Zonkerbl]

So the way things stand now the only way for Redcloak to be convinced is for him to leave the combat and verify the information Durkon is providing himself somehow. Interesting that he has never, ever talked personally with the Dark One - now would be a good time, methinks.

[dancrilis]

Xykon thinks the plan is to make him ruler of the world. Ending the world for the good of goblinkind isn't really on his agenda.

Don' have it handy at the moment (I should pickup the pdf sometime), but to memory:

Redcloak was clear that they would capture the gate and make things better for the goblins by threatening the gods, Xykon felt that they could use if to improve his lot also - that is effectively Redcloak's plan as he introduced it to Xykon, nothing said to the Dwarves changes that.


The Dwarves haven't for instance been told that The Plan is for The Dark One to get control of the Gate rather then Redcloak and Xykon.

Xykon could be pissed that Redcloak didn't include him in the discussions but nothing Oona and Greyview know likely changes his understanding.

[Metastachydium]

Oh, come on. Being able to bail out of a fight is not trivializing on anywhere near the scale of being able to go wherever you like whenever you like.

If you were fighting in the first place, there was a reason for it (or the writer wasn't doing their job). You had something to win, or something to lose. Noping out of the fight means you don't win and you do lose. Whatever the stakes were, you forfeited them to the villain.

The only case where word of recall would have changed anything is the Malack fight, and there are any number of reasons Durkon might not have used it there--the simplest being that he just didn't prepare it that day. A 6th-level slot is a big honkin' spell slot to devote to an escape hatch that will leave you stranded far from the action, if you don't have a specific reason to believe you will need it.

In fact, Durkon using Word of Recall would make things harder for the rest of the Order (since that would leave them without clerics for some time), rather than solving their problems in a game-breaking way.

[RMS Oceanic]

Maxrah calls it as she sees it. :smallbiggrin:

[Metastachydium]

O
Xykon thinks the plan is to make him ruler of the world. Ending the world for the good of goblinkind isn't really on his agenda.

To quote myself: „[Xykon] does know that Redcloak's (nominal or actual) goal is to make the goblinoids' life better through the Plan (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0832.html). He also does (or, at any rate, ought to) know that meddling with the Gates might bring about the end of the world. Redcloak did not say anything that incriminates him thus far.”

[Potatopeelerkin]

Well, she's not exactly happy with the current lot of her tribe (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html), and the whole shtick of her folks is taking huge risks (i.e. hunting monsters that reside in Kraagor's Tomb) for little reward.

It sounds like a lot of their essentials (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html) (panels 7-9) come from monsters hunted from Kraagor's tomb, so I think they get quite a significant reward out of it. You don't get to survive in such a harsh environment by deliberately making things harder for yourself.

Heck, she even says the only reason she's helping is to ensure the hollow doesn't get bled dry.

[Cryos]

How many levels does Maxrah have? I think she must have some ranks in intimidation with those burns.

If she's his cohort then at most three levels below his, so she'd be a couple spell levels behind him.

Also this comic reminds me of a quote from Bojack Horseman: "You can't just keep doing ****ty thing and then feeling sorry about them!" or something like that.

Redcloak's sunk cost fallacy is going to get him killed, I agree with his sentiments but not his implementation. I'd have said "execution" but that's likely to happen at some point given what we know about Xykon and the MITD

[Kantaki]

Gods, I love Oona (and Greyview).:smallbiggrin:
Can't the comic follow her from now?:smalltongue:

[Metastachydium]

Don' have it handy at the moment (I should pickup the pdf sometime), but to memory:

Redcloak was clear that they would capture the gate and make things better for the goblins by threatening the gods, Xykon felt that they could use if to improve his lot also - that is effectively Redcloak's plan as he introduced it to Xykon, nothing said to the Dwarves changes that.


The Dwarves haven't for instance been told that The Plan is for The Dark One to get control of the Gate rather then Redcloak and Xykon.

Xykon could be pissed that Redcloak didn't include him in the discussions but nothing Oona and Greyview know likely changes his understanding.

Heck, Redcloak explicitly tells him that the „Gate could be made to serve the Dark One's bidding.” On the next page, Xykon agrees to share the world with the goblins.

[Potatopeelerkin]

Gods, I love Oona (and Greyview).:smallbiggrin:
Can't the comic follow her from now?:smalltongue:

I heartily endorse this sentiment.

Maybe next time Rich releases a bonus book it'll have an Oona segment. One can only hope.

[Dausuul]

Well, she's not exactly happy with the current lot of her tribe (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html), and the whole shtick of her folks is taking huge risks (i.e. hunting monsters that reside in Kraagor's Tomb) for little reward.
My point is that Oona is unlikely to consider "We all die, but hypothetical future goblinoids get a nice deal" to be a reward.

Redcloak might be able to get her on board with "TDO blackmails the gods into improving our lot in this world," but if she becomes convinced that the gods really will destroy the world to stop Redcloak, and she sees that Redcloak knows this and is determined to go ahead anyway, then she has no reason to stick by him and every reason to sell him out. It's already been established that she feels no particular loyalty to the Dark One.

[Metastachydium]

It sounds like a lot of their essentials (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html) (panels 7-9) come from monsters hunted from Kraagor's tomb, so I think they get quite a significant reward out of it. You don't get to survive in such a harsh environment by deliberately making things harder for yourself.

Heck, she even says the only reason she's helping is to ensure the hollow doesn't get bled dry.

The same strip establishes that they only need it because they couldn't survive without in icy ice, and they only live on icy ice because dwarves won't chase them there. Sure, Oona likes her stylish yet functional mask, but seriously. Greyview has such a grey view for a reason.

[137beth]

I love how "only humans" is the really weird possibility:smallsmile:

And if Oona's noticed, then it seems like there's a higher probability that the MitD or Xykon could notice soon (if they haven't already), so Durkon and Minrah are going to have to get out soon.

[Metastachydium]

My point is that Oona is unlikely to consider "We all die, but hypothetical future goblinoids get a nice deal" to be a reward.

No, but she might find it's an acceptable risk if the symbiosis of her tribe with Monster Hollow is anything to go by.


Redcloak might be able to get her on board with "TDO blackmails the gods into improving our lot in this world,"

Yes, she likes that idea (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html).


but if she becomes convinced that the gods really will destroy the world to stop Redcloak, and she sees that Redcloak knows this and is determined to go ahead anyway, then she has no reason to stick by him and every reason to sell him out. It's already been established that she feels no particular loyalty to the Dark One.

Redcloak does not know the gods are really going to destroy the world, and Oona does not have much reason to believe that this is actually the case, either. All she knows is this: there might be a risk involved and Redcloak is willing to take that risk.

[Potatopeelerkin]

The same strip establishes that they only need it because they couldn't survive without in icy ice, and they only live on icy ice because dwarves won't chase them there. Sure, Oona likes her stylish yet functional mask, but seriously. Greyview has such a grey view for a reason.

It seems like the less risky choice though, doesn't it? When given the option between fighting to live in a nice place or choosing somewhere that's harsh and cold but relatively safe, they picked the latter.

I'm sure Oona would like to not be chased by dwarves, but would she be willing to take the insane risk Redcloak is, or see value in a potential future in which her whole clan is dead? I doubt it. Seems like they'd rather be isolated than endangered.

[Mic_128]

Oh, and this whole exchange with Redcloak validates Roy's reasoning for wanting to take Xykon out first, then negotiate with Redcloak.

With Xykon out of the picture then there is no hope for the plan. That's the only way Redcloak is going to listen, if he even does.

He's already hinted at - and now outright admitted - he has no problems with simply destroying the gate. If they had taken out Xykon, he probably would have just smashed the gate. At least now, maybe, their words might cause him to hesitate.

[Metastachydium]

It seems like the less risky choice though, doesn't it? When given the option between fighting to live in a nice place or choosing somewhere that's harsh and cold but relatively safe, they picked the latter.

She chose having to fight monsters somewhere that's harsh and cold over fighting dwarves in a nice place. Sure, the latter might have ended in the tribe being exterminated, but the former only lets them linger on and it's far from safe.


I'm sure Oona would like to not be chased by dwarves, but would she be willing to take the insane risk Redcloak is, or see value in a potential future in which her whole clan is dead? I doubt it. Seems like they'd rather be isolated than endangered.

My answer to your question would be this: I don't know. It is possible she would take the risk. An ill-conceived raid on Kraagor's Tomb can cripple the tribe as well, after all. As Freyr said, there's no profit without a little risk and Oona seems to kinda-sorta enjoy living dangerously.
Anyhow, Redcloak does not intend to destroy the world. He's a litlle too chill about the prospect of that stupid Plan B coming to effect, but that's not his goal. I'd say they could talk things over with Oona.

[understatement]

OK, so the Monster should be coming out soon enough, with something like "oh! Xykon's back" causing RC, Durkon, and Minrah to collectively go "oh, crap."

I absolutely love Minrah here, but she's doing Roy's "knock back a spellcaster so they might have enough space to cast" manuever, which...really isn't a good idea? Redcloak's expression last panel reminds me a bit of Tarquin picking himself up after he falls off the triceratops.

[Austin's Dad]

Oooh! Panel 7 is a Babylon 5 paraphrase (from S3e22). I haven't see one of those since strip #911 panel 5 (from S3e21) - at least, none that I have identified as such. :smallcool:

[Vendanna]

Wow, what a strip!

First: dang, no periodic elemental. No sodium upcoming, sorry.

Second: Yes! Oona's back!

Third: Okay, Maxrah's smackdown on RC was too satisfying to put into words, so I'll just a huge smilie here instead. :smallbiggrin:

I wonder what would be stronger an Iron Golem, or an Iron Elemental cast by Red cloak. but would be similar creatures. :o

[Doug Lampert]

So um, I'm going to bring up the bugbear in the room (well the other bugbear, people have already talked about Oona sidelining herself on purpose) and say...isn't it a little incongruous that Roy had to learn a special technique in order to have even a % chance to interrupt a spellcasting, yet Minrah pulls it off just by smashing Redcloak with a hammer?

Thinking on it, I see two plausible explanations:

a) The combination of the hammer blow and the psychological warfare was at least enough to force a Concentration check, which Redcloak failed; or

b) The hammer, at that time, is quite a bit larger than Roy's sword and I'm erroneously comparing the force from being smacked with a stick to the force from a blow slightly more extreme than a Looney-Tunes anvil from above.

I'm curious if anyone has additional thoughts.

Summon Monster is a full round spell (others have mentioned this). It takes all his actions on the round cast, so he can't even 5' step away, and it doesn't go off till everyone else has taken an action, and it can be interrupted at any time from when you start casting, to the start of your next round. Cast it in melee, you need to cast defensively in order to ONLY face a full attack from your opponent. The concentration check DC is 10+damage done, and the Hammer of Loki Sucks probably does a fair amount of damage.

Basically, it's a horrible choice to cast in melee, and trying it says Red Cloak is either so flustered he's making bad choices, or he's not used to being in direct combat, or he's so loaded on buffs and support spells that he's got almost nothing offensive. Or multiples of these at once.

[2D8HP]

I have missed Greyview.


[...]Yay, Greyview! :smallsmile: Words are just pretty hat we put on ugly truths. [...]


[..]Greyview has such a grey view for a reason.


Agreed, I for one am eager to subscribe to The Greyview View newsletter!

[Potatopeelerkin]

She chose having to fight monsters somewhere that's harsh and cold over fighting dwarves in a nice place. Sure, the latter might have ended in the tribe being exterminated, but the former only lets them linger on and it's far from safe.

There's inherent danger in hunting, sure, but it's generally a known quantity. Especially once you've done it many times so you know what to expect. The monsters exist to protect the tomb, so it seems unlikely it'd wipe the clan out. At worst they might take out some hunters which would make things pretty hard for a while, but I'm sure they have stores and a backup plan in case that happens. It's bound to happen eventually, so it'd be silly not to.

The point is it's nowhere near as huge a risk as the one Redcloak is taking. Living near Kraagor's tomb has some risk, but nowhere near as much. The fate of the clan would likely not be decided from a single hunting mission.


I'd say they could talk things over with Oona.

They probably could, but I think so could the Order. I think she could be brought over to either side. She does say Minrah brings up an interesting point.

[Wowlock]

Well, he is a lost cause. Kill him and give the mantle to an actually REASONABLE goblin that sees the ACTUAL big picture. Redcloak is too far gone in his fantasy in his head or in his ego. He is no different than Xykon now.

[P.LOC]

Oh, and this whole exchange with Redcloak validates Roy's reasoning for wanting to take Xykon out first, then negotiate with Redcloak.

With Xykon out of the picture then there is no hope for the plan. That's the only way Redcloak is going to listen, if he even does.

Even if I think Roy was right, he was just talking about stopping the immediate threat. Fighting Xykon would have mean fighting RC as well, and I suspect RC (assuming he had survived the battle) wouldn't have listened them after the battle.

Also, but OOTS don't know that, without Xykon, Redcloak would have turned to Plan B, trying to destroy the gate

[sillymel]

I think this strip confirms that the Thor’s Might spell came from the hammer, not from Minrah.


So um, I'm going to bring up the bugbear in the room (well the other bugbear, people have already talked about Oona sidelining herself on purpose) and say...isn't it a little incongruous that Roy had to learn a special technique in order to have even a % chance to interrupt a spellcasting, yet Minrah pulls it off just by smashing Redcloak with a hammer?

Thinking on it, I see two plausible explanations:

a) The combination of the hammer blow and the psychological warfare was at least enough to force a Concentration check, which Redcloak failed; or

b) The hammer, at that time, is quite a bit larger than Roy's sword and I'm erroneously comparing the force from being smacked with a stick to the force from a blow slightly more extreme than a Looney-Tunes anvil from above.

I'm curious if anyone has additional thoughts.

I would think that getting hammered tends to mess with one’s ability to concentrate.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

OK, so the Monster should be coming out soon enough, with something like "oh! Xykon's back" causing RC, Durkon, and Minrah to collectively go "oh, crap."

You have to remember, this is not a weird thing to happen to team evil. They get attacked by adventurer teams a lot - RC recalls one time a bunch of druids came out of their office plant. If Xykon comes over, RC can just say, "yeah, a couple of dwarven clerics showed up spouting a bunch of nonsense about their god's mission to end our quest for control of the Snarl" and it'll be perfectly plausible.


I think this strip confirms that the Thor’s Might spell came from the hammer, not from Minrah.
No, I'd say this strip confirms the opposite - that she cast this spell herself. Not only because she says she's casted it, but also because if the source of the enlargement was coming from the hammer, she'd mention it when suggesting dropping it.

Grey Wolf

[Anansiil]

Another round of applause for stellar writing!

It's interesting how certain kinds of people care so much more about principles than they do actual people. So much belief in a system that if people suffer, it's fine because that system is the best system...and it's so great that if people suffer it might just be their own fault.

Those pretty words will sting Red Cloak for the rest of his life, I'm sure.

[sillymel]

No, I'd say this strip confirms the opposite - that she cast this spell herself. Not only because she says she's casted it, but also because if the source of the enlargement was coming from the hammer, she'd mention it when suggesting dropping it.

Grey Wolf

Oh, wait. I misinterpreted what Minrah said in the first panel. I think you’re right.

[The MunchKING]

This rather depends on how many people get here before the fight is over.

Killing witnesses doesn’t work when people witness you doing it.

And any plan where I lose my hat is... a bad plan? (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20031017#.X0PcDGySmUk)


Indeed. Any plan where you lose your hat is a bad plan!

Dang it, we got a Jagerninja here...


Well excuse me for not being familiar with a random spell of a game I’ve never played.

Redcloak has used it before. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html)


It works if you kill the witnesses of the killing of the witnesses, then kill the witnesses of the killing of the witnesses of the killing of the witnesses... and so on. It's standard procedure for seasoned murderhobbos D&D players.

The dirigible's going to go down in flames, you know.

[understatement]

You have to remember, this is not a weird thing to happen to team evil. They get attacked by adventurer teams a lot - RC recalls one time a bunch of druids came out of their office plant. If Xykon comes over, RC can just say, "yeah, a couple of dwarven clerics showed up spouting a bunch of nonsense about their god's mission to end our quest for control of the Snarl" and it'll be perfectly plausible.

Grey Wolf

That makes sense -- I always keep forgetting the druid tidbit.

[KorvinStarmast]

Oona's already established they don't have strong feelings (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html) about TDO, and are probably just in it for personal economic reasons rather than caring about the affairs of gods the way Redcloak does...Perhaps they'd feel differently if they knew how likely their plan could end in death for them all even if it was successful. All good points. I am on board with your angle on this.

Of course, that means Redcloak is likely to kill her for the same reason he killed Tsukiko: He can't risk her revealing the truth to Xykon. Hmm, Reddy has his hands full at the moment. Also, unlike Tsukiko, Oona isn't trying to elbow him aside for favored acces to Xykon's inner circle. Not seeing him kill Oona.
and the whole shtick of her folks is taking huge risks (i.e. hunting monsters that reside in Kraagor's Tomb) for little reward. Hmm, they are here due to being shoved aside by one of the 'favored races' I guess. So why she isn't lashing out at two dwarves - dwarves it was who drove them to live on the ice - will be interesting to see in subsequent strips.
Maybe next time Rich releases a bonus book it'll have an Oona segment. One can only hope. I'd buy that in a second.

Agreed, I for one am eager to subscribe to The Greyview View newsletter! Hey, there you are. :smallsmile: And so would I!

[Ionathus]

The new bearer would still need to have a 9th spell slot, which is something I highly doubt any other Dark One worshipper is anywhere near to having access to.

Oh, don't worry, they addressed that in the "Thor's plan...narrative purpose" thread -- several people have argued that a mass of low-level clerics of TDO could combine their spell slots to simulate the power of a 9th level spell.

To which I say, "absolute phooey." Lots of people are constructing more and more convoluted reasons to write Redcloak out of this story, even as he finally gets the rebuttal he's deserved for hundreds of pages. We finally get to see his ideas be tested, and see him called out as a hypocrite. My personal prediction is that this exchange will become a seed of doubt, and I look forward to seeing it bear some fruit down the road.


Minrah proves herself to be awesome again. Spot on with the attack against his hypocrisy and lies about caring about Goblins!

Minrah is just so great. I am loving her blunt, no-nonsense fury in this scene -- and glad that I was wrong when I predicted she couldn't do much damage to Redcloak! Still think they need to get out of there pronto, but I appreciate her staying to call him out directly.


I knew Redcloak would ignore the idea that the Dark One might not survive. It's just too much of a convenient fact, it works too well as a threat. Hopefully though, the Dark One is listening in. Redcloak doesn't need to change his mind or cast the 9th level spell, if the Dark One just comes out and talks to Thor, that's a win.

This was my thought, too. When you're negotiating, you don't get to just lay every single point on the table, one after the other. If you do, it'll often seem like you're making thinly-veiled excuses (and whaddya know, that's exactly how RC interpreted it). It's a dialogue. Durkon opened with the most critical point, and started asking Redcloak questions about what he wanted, then engaged him in those desires. That's how a negotiation ought to go, and I don't fault Durkon for his approach. Durkon's point in the last page ("I didn't think it was necessary to mention, since Redcloak seemed to care about this world") is spot-on.

[Jaziggy]

Spinoff proposal: Oona and Minrah, roomates in the big city as they confront the challenges of work, friends, love... and cleaning up after that dire wolf after his walks.

I'm surprised Durkon isn't bugging out, but maybe he's expecting the rest of the Order to drop in any second. I know I am; everyone was 100% geared up for the 'final fight' so why not just go kick down the door now the Durkon has whacked the hornet's nest with T.H.O.R.S. Hammer.

[Metastachydium]

There's inherent danger in hunting, sure, but it's generally a known quantity. Especially once you've done it many times so you know what to expect. The monsters exist to protect the tomb, so it seems unlikely it'd wipe the clan out. At worst they might take out some hunters which would make things pretty hard for a while, but I'm sure they have stores and a backup plan in case that happens. It's bound to happen eventually, so it'd be silly not to.

The point is it's nowhere near as huge a risk as the one Redcloak is taking. Redcloak is betting the longshot- loss means losing everything, success means winning everything. Living near Kraagor's tomb has some risk, but nowhere near as much. The fate of the clan would likely not be decided from a single hunting mission.

While a hunting mission gone wrong could mean the village gets nothing out of it, and another party from a smaller pool has to go back shortly after, still shaken, which increases the chance of another mistake, which in turn can initiate a downward spiral which results in hurry, panic and ultimately catastrophal losses &c. &c., it is indeed true that Redcloak's gamble probably invlves more risk than anything ever did in this cycle. Nevertheless, as far as Redcloak (and Oona) knows winning means winning everything, while losing might only mean a change of schedule. Losing everything might happen due to some accident or unforeseen interference, but for Redcloak, the chance of such an accident happening seems to be no higher than the chance of the scenario about the Tomb I outlined above coming into play. As for Oona, she might enjoy watching the fight (which reminds him of the bugbears' own brand of debating matters), but she has little reason to believe the old enemies of her subspecies.


They probably could, but I think so could the Order. I think she could be brought over to either side. She does say Minrah brings up an interesting point.

Redcloak offered her something realistic which she liked. Durkon's been explaining that the goblins are equalk enough as they are because some of them have a single, small, vulnerable nation somewhere else just a minute ago, while sitting near the village of a bugbear clan his species chased away from the habitable portion of the realm.

[KorvinStarmast]

And any plan where I lose my hat is... a bad plan? (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20031017#.X0PcDGySmUk)

The dirigible's going to go down in flames, you know. That strip looks like a lot like Phil Foglio art style. Is that one of his? Been ages since I saw his stuff.

My personal prediction is that this exchange will become a seed of doubt, and I look forward to seeing it bear some fruit down the road. Given how Rich writes, I like your position on this.

[Baine]

everyone was 100% geared up for the 'final fight' so why not just go kick down the door now the Durkon has whacked the hornet's nest with T.H.O.R.S. Hammer.

The Hammer Of (R)oki Sucks?

[Ionathus]

I love how Redcloak is constantly switching beween "I" and "We". Meaning that not even himself believes that his talking is representative of the Goblinoid People.

Agreed, it's happened like three times in this debate scene already, and really drives home how self-centered his mindset is. Really loving that discrepancy and wondering if/how he'll come to grips with it.


Of course, that means Redcloak is likely to kill her for the same reason he killed Tsukiko: He can't risk her revealing the truth to Xykon.

My money's on "There's no reason for Redcloak to try killing her." Like others have said, there's nothing incriminating that she could've overheard -- and Xykon already knows from SoD that The Plan is supposed to improve the lives of the goblins, and that it risks the destruction of the entire world.


Well excuse me for not being familiar with a random spell of a game I’ve never played.

Pretty sure that was just a quote from Greg casting Control Weather back at the start of Utterly Dwarfed, not a personal criticism

[danielxcutter]

Redcloak is a extremist hypocrite, but even so people are way too quick to write him down as a lost cause either because they don’t like him or possibly the even worse reason of “I don’t want to think about the goblins”. Which is missing the entire point.

[Ionathus]

(snip)
Basically, it's a horrible choice to cast in melee, and trying it says Red Cloak is either so flustered he's making bad choices, or he's not used to being in direct combat, or he's so loaded on buffs and support spells that he's got almost nothing offensive. Or multiples of these at once.

Ooh, that's a good prediction. He's trying to save his energy for the Gate search.

Or: maybe his heart's not fully in it, and now that he's being called out by other clerics he wants to verbally "defeat" them before he physically defeats them, just to prove to himself he's in the right?


Well, he is a lost cause. Kill him and give the mantle to an actually REASONABLE goblin that sees the ACTUAL big picture. Redcloak is too far gone in his fantasy in his head or in his ego. He is no different than Xykon now.

You would love the "Thor's plan has already fulfilled its narrative purpose" thread currently on this forum. I disagree with you 100%, for both in-story and real-world reasons, but you might find some stuff you'll like in there.


That makes sense -- I always keep forgetting the druid tidbit.

I wonder if Redcloak will want to downplay this interaction with Xykon...maybe tell him that it was just some nearby do-gooder Dwarves trying to attack a goblin? I know Oona's right there but maybe he'll find a way to do it.

It'd be an interesting and clever way to reverse his position the last time they encountered the Order and Redcloak's claims of their importance were dismissed by Xykon (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html)...maybe he could play it smart and lean into that.

[RatElemental]

Oona once again being awesome. I don't even have anything else to say right now, haven't even read the thread.

[bunsen_h]

Hang onto your hat! :smallbiggrin: (Gratiuitous reference to Young Frankenstein)

"When a German scientist tells you to hold on to your hat, it's not casual conversation. HOLD ON TO YOUR HAT! HAT! HOLD!" (Gratuitous Muppet Movie reference)


She chose having to fight monsters somewhere that's harsh and cold over fighting dwarves in a nice place. Sure, the latter might have ended in the tribe being exterminated, but the former only lets them linger on and it's far from safe.

I think it's likely that Oona didn't create the current setup, but rather is just dealing with the situation she grew up in. Getting the bugbears to leave the village, to try to start a new life in a better environment, would be a big step. What they're living with now is difficult, but it's stable.


Oooh! Panel 7 is a Babylon 5 paraphrase (from S3e22). I haven't see one of those since strip #911 panel 5 (from S3e21) - at least, none that I have identified as such. :smallcool:

I've just read the transcript of that episode ("Z'ha'dum"), and I'm not seeing the connection.

[Ruck]

I just don’t think Redcloak is going to get out of having to justify his actions here to her.
Yeah, agreed.


Nah, by the end of the page they’re just calling him out on his bull.
And boy, it sure makes him angry that Minrah has his number so well despite knowing nothing about him previously.

[Jaziggy]

The Hammer Of (R)oki Sucks?

One of the benefits of my proposed naming convention is that it can be whatever it needs to be.

In this strip and in Minrah's hands, it's The Hammer Of Rhetorical Splendor

[Fyraltari]

Oh, come on. Being able to bail out of a fight is not trivializing on anywhere near the scale of being able to go wherever you like whenever you like.

If you were fighting in the first place, there was a reason for it (or the writer wasn't doing their job). You had something to win, or something to lose. Noping out of the fight means you don't win and you do lose. Whatever the stakes were, you forfeited them to the villain.

The only case where word of recall would have changed anything is the Malack fight, and there are any number of reasons Durkon might not have used it there--the simplest being that he just didn't prepare it that day. A 6th-level slot is a big honkin' spell slot to devote to an escape hatch that will leave you stranded far from the action, if you don't have a specific reason to believe you will need it.
Look, all I’m saying is that it wasn’t an unreasonable assumption on my part, as that spell really invalidates most « lethal danger » situations like that time they were chased through the desert by a boomer off his med and his old war buddies.

I love how "only humans" is the really weird possibility:smallsmile:
I mean, a world with only humans on it would be really weird. Your food? Human flesh. Your clothes? Human skin. The oil for your car and plastic? Decomposed humans. Your cabin in the woods? Human bones. The woods? Human planted on the ground for some reason.

He's already hinted at - and now outright admitted - he has no problems with simply destroying the gate. If they had taken out Xykon, he probably would have just smashed the gate. At least now, maybe, their words might cause him to hesitate.
Problem is, if he destroys the last Gate then he « protected » Xykon from Right-Eye for nothing. If Xykon dies, he’s going to have a break-down.

Well, he is a lost cause. Kill him and give the mantle to an actually REASONABLE goblin that sees the ACTUAL big picture. Redcloak is too far gone in his fantasy in his head or in his ego. He is no different than Xykon now.
Nah. Redcloak knows what he’s doing is wrong and he hates himself for it. He’s just too mired in self-deception to do anything about it because he’s too craven to admit it.
Xykon knows what he’s doing is wrong and he finds it funny.

You have to remember, this is not a weird thing to happen to team evil. They get attacked by adventurer teams a lot - RC recalls one time a bunch of druids came out of their office plant. If Xykon comes over, RC can just say, "yeah, a couple of dwarven clerics showed up spouting a bunch of nonsense about their god's mission to end our quest for control of the Snarl" and it'll be perfectly plausible.

The part where he sat down to negotiate with one of them, however...

Redcloak has used it before. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html)
And I was supposed to conclude that the spell was on Clerical standard list from that how exactly?


That strip looks like a lot like Phil Foglio art style. Is that one of his? Been ages since I saw his stuff.
Yup. Girl Genius, a (web)comic he and his wife have been making for years now. It’s quite fun, even though it tends to meander a bit.

The Hammer Of (R)oki Sucks?
Japanese Roki wolst Roki.

[Bartok]

Are there any other clerics of the Dark One capable of casting 9th level spells?

Not that I know of, but it's a long book, and someone could level up a few times.

[Psyren]

Congrats to Minrah for actually explaining the full situation. Obviously Redcloak is too far up his own posterior to properly consider the information now, but it will likely stick with him after this scene has conlcuded. Even more importantly, another goblinoid heard it and Redcloak's response to it.



The part where he sat down to negotiate with one of them, however...


It's a pretty safe bet Xykon didn't see that, or he'd have already been over there - and with the table and stools now smashed by Minrah, there's no evidence of such a sit-down having taken place, as long as Oona keeps her mouth shut. (In fact, Durkon likely made sure Xykon was nowhere nearby before even landing.)

[dancrilis]

(In fact, Durkon likely made sure Xykon was nowhere nearby before even landing.)

Haley and Vaarsuvius saw Xykon when they scouted, so it is a good bet he is around somewhere (panel 6 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1198.html)).

[understatement]

Not that I know of, but it's a long book, and someone could level up a few times.

Considering no goblin cleric has shown even to be level 10, "leveling up a few times" is not something easily viable when four out of five rifts are leaking open.

***

These past strips have been so good. Which will prevail -- the unstoppable force of dwarven Lawful Good, or the immovable object of sunk-cost-fallacy Lawful Evil?

[Psyren]

Haley and Vaarsuvius saw Xykon when they scouted, so it is a good bet he is around somewhere (panel 6 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1198.html)).

Yes of course, but that was back when they scouted the canyon initially - not when Durkon landed next to Redcloak to begin talking to him. He's definitely in the area somewhere.

[Worldsong]

Ooh, that's a good prediction. He's trying to save his energy for the Gate search.

Or: maybe his heart's not fully in it, and now that he's being called out by other clerics he wants to verbally "defeat" them before he physically defeats them, just to prove to himself he's in the right?

Aren't both Implosion and Summon Monster domain spells? To me it looks like Redcloak is mostly using stuff that wouldn't be as useful inside the dungeon.

Of course I don't know a lot about clerics and for all I know he's going all out with the most powerful stuff.


Look, all I’m saying is that it wasn’t an unreasonable assumption on my part, as that spell really invalidates most « lethal danger » situations like that time they were chased through the desert by a boomer off his med and his old war buddies.

I agree that it's unlikely that Durkon is going to be using Word of Recall, although I disagree with the notion that the protagonists should be disallowed from sacrificing high level spell slots for disengagement opportunities with strict limitations. For me that falls a bit short of the line of 'too convenient for the good guys to have'.

That aside, I think that's the best description of Tarquin & Pals I've heard so far.


Not that I know of, but it's a long book, and someone could level up a few times.

So far we haven't seen any evidence of there being another cleric in the world who can use 9th level spells and an outright suggestion from Haley and Belkar that Redcloak might be the only one.

People keep bringing up the idea that they can just get another divine caster who gains their power from the Dark One and who can cast 9th level spell slots but it just sounds like a cop-out to me.

[RatElemental]

Might not even have to level another cleric up. Thor just needs a 9th level spell slot worth of purple quiddity, but a lot of lower level clerics tossing in 20 3rd level slots might add up, or the Dark One could come around after talking to Redcloak in the afterlife and provide it himself.

I think Redcloak's going to do it, but I don't think this is a good argument for why he specifically has to.

[Ionathus]

Aren't both Implosion and Summon Monster domain spells? To me it looks like Redcloak is mostly using stuff that wouldn't be as useful inside the dungeon.

Of course I don't know a lot about clerics and for all I know he's going all out with the most powerful stuff.

Implosion would be deadly-useful in the dungeon (literally!), though maybe the baddies in there have proven immune to insta-kill effects, much like the old Final Fantasy bosses always being immune in the same ways? (Vanish/Doom glitch combo notwithstanding)

Summon Monster also feels very effective -- if only for action-economy reasons, to give Team Evil a front line buffer against the dungeon monsters. I know MitD is established as being pretty tough, and didn't have any umbrella scrapes after their last on-panel dungeon crawl, but aside from that their team is two casters (i.e. squishier than front-line fighters) and a mid-level bugbear with her dire wolf companion. Some summoned muscle would be a good idea, IMO.


So far we haven't seen any evidence of there being another cleric in the world who can use 9th level spells and an outright suggestion from Haley and Belkar that Redcloak might be the only one.

People keep bringing up the idea that they can just get another divine caster who gains their power from the Dark One and who can cast 9th level spell slots but it just sounds like a cop-out to me.

Yes, thank you. There's been a lot of work done to establish that high-level divine casters are exceedingly rare -- trying to write one into predictions just to "prove" that Redcloak isn't necessary seems like a massive excuse when Thor has already bluntly told Durkon "you need to convince Redcloak."


Might not even have to level another cleric up. Thor just needs a 9th level spell slot worth of purple quiddity, but a lot of lower level clerics tossing in 20 3rd level slots might add up, or the Dark One could come around after talking to Redcloak in the afterlife and provide it himself.

I think Redcloak's going to do it, but I don't think this is a good argument for why he specifically has to.This just doesn't add up for me (pun intended:smallbiggrin:). The whole reason Thor said "you just need Redcloak to agree to cast a 9th level ritual" read to me like Rich establishing a Win Condition for the book. If there was another way to do it, Thor would've said it more vaguely, but he didn't. I think we're supposed to assume that a 9th level spell, from The Dark One's high priest, is currently the only way to create Four-Color Gates. Maybe there are other options, maybe in theory 20 low-level priests could do it, but we're not going to get that answer from this story, because Redcloak's 9th-level spell is still their goal.

[Darth Paul]

I would think that getting hammered tends to mess with one’s ability to concentrate.

We're talking about getting hit with a hammer, or what are we talking about exactly? :smallconfused:

[Baine]

We're talking about getting hit with a hammer, or what are we talking about exactly? :smallconfused:

Thor made it; it's probably got a hidden booze flask somewhere inside.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I love Oona. If Redcloak dies, can she be the new High Priest? :smallbiggrin:

[Doug Lampert]

Might not even have to level another cleric up. Thor just needs a 9th level spell slot worth of purple quiddity, but a lot of lower level clerics tossing in 20 3rd level slots might add up, or the Dark One could come around after talking to Redcloak in the afterlife and provide it himself.

I think Redcloak's going to do it, but I don't think this is a good argument for why he specifically has to.

Doylist reasoning says that this won't be solved by TDO or by a bunch of other TDO clerics. The solution of another cleric leveling up or of using lots of low level clerics might work in world, or it might not be practical, but it's not terribly relevant to the story because that's not how they're going to solve the problem.

The problem will ultimately be solved by TOotS. They may or may not use anything like Thor's plan to do it. But if they solve the problems by sealing the snarl in with a 4 quidity seal as Thor suggested, then the purple quidity will be provided by Red Cloak, because he's the cleric of TDO that we've been following for many books and that the order has interacted with.

If they can't convince Red Cloak, then they'll use a solution that either somehow forces Red Cloak to help them despite not being convinced, or they'll pull a different option out of their hats.

[Worldsong]

Might not even have to level another cleric up. Thor just needs a 9th level spell slot worth of purple quiddity, but a lot of lower level clerics tossing in 20 3rd level slots might add up, or the Dark One could come around after talking to Redcloak in the afterlife and provide it himself.

I think Redcloak's going to do it, but I don't think this is a good argument for why he specifically has to.

I do actually believe that the suggestion that Redcloak could be replaced by a whole bunch of lower level goblinoid clerics is one of the more reasonable suggestions since it's less of an asspull (doesn't require unknown factors or diminishes Redcloak's status as the strongest cleric in the world). I do, however, consider that a different argument from 'we'll just get another cleric capable of casting 9th level spells while worshipping the Dark One.'


Implosion would be deadly-useful in the dungeon (literally!), though maybe the baddies in there have proven immune to insta-kill effects, much like the old Final Fantasy bosses always being immune in the same ways? (Vanish/Doom glitch combo notwithstanding)

Summon Monster also feels very effective -- if only for action-economy reasons, to give Team Evil a front line buffer against the dungeon monsters. I know MitD is established as being pretty tough, and didn't have any umbrella scrapes after their last on-panel dungeon crawl, but aside from that their team is two casters (i.e. squishier than front-line fighters) and a mid-level bugbear with her dire wolf companion. Some summoned muscle would be a good idea, IMO.

The impression I got from Implosion was that given its all-or-nothing nature it wouldn't be very effective against higher level enemies who are too likely to make their saving throw or have spell resistance. In a normal campaign I imagine you'd use it to get rid of the villain's meatshields and mooks to twist the action economy in your favour.

As for Summon Monster, you have a point that action economy is important and that Team Evil could use another meatshield. Maybe my view is a bit coloured because when I played a druid the only time summoning more allies felt useful was when I used a giant snake to grapple one of our enemies. Outside of that scenario it seemed like everything I could summon would be too weak to be very useful.

[Ionathus]

Doylist reasoning says that this won't be solved by TDO or by a bunch of other TDO clerics. The solution of another cleric leveling up or of using lots of low level clerics might work in world, or it might not be practical, but it's not terribly relevant to the story because that's not how they're going to solve the problem.

The problem will ultimately be solved by TOotS. They may or may not use anything like Thor's plan to do it. But if they solve the problems by sealing the snarl in with a 4 quidity seal as Thor suggested, then the purple quidity will be provided by Red Cloak, because he's the cleric of TDO that we've been following for many books and that the order has interacted with.

If they can't convince Red Cloak, then they'll use a solution that either somehow forces Red Cloak to help them despite not being convinced, or they'll pull a different option out of their hats.

I don't have any response to this: I just want to thank you for articulating all of the swirling thoughts I've had across the last few weeks so clearly and cleanly. This is one of the best breakdowns of my problems with the "They can just do X for the Purple Quiddity instead of Redcloak!" arguments, so thank you for that!


As for Summon Monster, you have a point that action economy is important and that Team Evil could use another meatshield. Maybe my view is a bit coloured because when I played a druid the only time summoning more allies felt useful was when I used a giant snake to grapple one of our enemies. Outside of that scenario it seemed like everything I could summon would be too weak to be very useful.

I've been that druid (in 5e, admittedly, so rules might be different) and got a LOT of mileage out of summoning! 8 wolves became my signature spell for awhile, and since our DM liked to throw single monsters who weren't immune to the Prone condition, they were surprisingly effective at softening the bad guys up for our attackers.

[Worldsong]

I've been that druid (in 5e, admittedly, so rules might be different) and got a LOT of mileage out of summoning! 8 wolves became my signature spell for awhile, and since our DM liked to throw single monsters who weren't immune to the Prone condition, they were surprisingly effective at softening the bad guys up for our attackers.

My druid was also in 5e (after that I stuck to Pathfinder for various reasons), and admittedly I would have used the giant snake more often if the campaign had lasted much longer after that.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Gods have I missed Oona and Greyview. And I never knew how much I wanted to see Redcloak get smashed in the face repeatedly by a gigantic dwarf cleric.

[Jasdoif]

I do actually believe that the suggestion that Redcloak could be replaced by a whole bunch of lower level goblinoid clerics is one of the more reasonable suggestions since it's less of an asspull (doesn't require unknown factors or diminishes Redcloak's status as the strongest cleric in the world).It does require unknown factors: That spell slots too weak to hold ninth-level spells are still powerful enough effectively restrain the Snarl, that the ritual Thor has in mind doesn't explicitly require a ninth-level slot, that coming up with a new/altered ritual doesn't exceed the time constraint before the Snarl gets out (itself an unknown factor)....

[Worldsong]

It does require unknown factors: That spell slots too weak to hold ninth-level spells are still powerful enough effectively restrain the Snarl, that the ritual Thor has in mind doesn't explicitly require a ninth-level slot, that coming up with a new/altered ritual doesn't exceed the time constraint before the Snarl gets out (itself an unknown factor)....

All right, let me rephrase it then: it doesn't require the addition of a new character or entity that we've never heard anything about and which would seem to serve zero purpose in the story other than to undermine Redcloak's presence in the story.

We know that there are a lot of goblinoid clerics so the question is about whether they can pull it off rather than whether they even exist in the first place.

[masamune1]

Plot twist- that's actually Xykon cosplaying as Oona.

[RatElemental]

It does require unknown factors: That spell slots too weak to hold ninth-level spells are still powerful enough effectively restrain the Snarl, that the ritual Thor has in mind doesn't explicitly require a ninth-level slot, that coming up with a new/altered ritual doesn't exceed the time constraint before the Snarl gets out (itself an unknown factor)....

It just requires that a lot of not quite drops of purple quiddity can add up to a drop of purple quiddity.

I know Rich doesn't really care about the rules, but the rules governing how rituals work actually back me up here. In fact you'd only need 4 3rd level slots to exceed the relative amount of ritual power a 9th level one has.

[understatement]

Plot twist- that's actually Xykon cosplaying as Oona.

And Greyview would be his worg familiar.

[arverst_aegnar]

It's kinda funny, in a tragic way, how much in opposition Redcloak's methods are to his goals. He's planning on building a treehouse in the tree he just cut down for materials.

I don't think we'd be spending this much time pointing out the (many, many) flaws in Redcloak's reasoning if he's just going to be replaced later on. He's going to have a wake-up call at some point, probably not soon, and then ... Well, i originally considered him irredeemable (not for his actions, but because of his unwillingness to own up to them for what they are), but i've come to believe there's a chance. It's still possible for a plausible, narratively satisfying alternative to Thor's plan to be brought up, but i wouldn't bet on Redcloak not being involved.

[Jasdoif]

It does require unknown factors: That spell slots too weak to hold ninth-level spells are still powerful enough effectively restrain the Snarl, that the ritual Thor has in mind doesn't explicitly require a ninth-level slot, that coming up with a new/altered ritual doesn't exceed the time constraint before the Snarl gets out (itself an unknown factor)....I know Rich doesn't really care about the rules, but the rules governing how rituals work actually back me up here. In fact you'd only need 4 3rd level slots to exceed the relative amount of ritual power a 9th level one has.If that was in fact applicable here, any 9th-level slot from any caster would suffice. And further, it would take a completely new epic spell to change the level or number of spell slots...which is why I mentioned "a new ritual".

The ninth-level slot seems more like a component, here.

[Kereea]

I'm pretty sure I've said this before, but I freaking LOVE Oona.

She did a good job at calling out RC and the Dark One back when we first met her, and her hanging back here to allow the "exchange of ideas" to continue keeps that moving. She's no cleric, but she's a good outside view on Team Evil and might (long stretch) be enough to at least rattle Redcloak.

On the other hand, given this is in the final arc, allegedly, and Xykon does have MitD as a trump against Redcloak turning on him, if Redcloak did have an epiphany now would be as good a time as any. And then he dies. And is eaten, preventing rezzing. Which for all we know plays into the IFC's plan, which has gone unmentioned for a good while at this point, tho they seem invested in the destruction of the gates thus far and may wish to free the Snarl. On the OTHER hand, Redcloak getting killed via a machination of Xykon's might piss him off enough for his spirit to try and convince the Dark One to side with the other gods to save the other goblins (if DO would even be willing is up in the air of course)

Honestly one thing I really like about Xykon is how his power and use of MitD as a trump keeps him relevant even though he knows jack all about the truth of the rifts and the Snarl. He's really well done as an unrelated Big Bad.

[Rogar Demonblud]

In retrospect, Durkon should've suggested fixing the Gobbotopia rift as the test case.

[Fyraltari]

It just requires that a lot of not quite drops of purple quiddity can add up to a drop of purple quiddity.

Which is not a given.

[deltamire]

One problem with the idea of the lower level slots adding up to a 9th is that it's, well, based entirely on dnd mechanics. Which, admittedly, is what OOTS is about playing with and criticising, but the actually mechanic of spell slot conversion / equivalent power hasn't really, to my knowledge, been brought up in-comic directly. OOTS has been pretty good about setting down the rules it plays by, so unless we're somehow going to get a full lesson on that info in the next hundred or so pages, it seems unlikely it'll be influencing or replacing the final problem of getting Redcloak to agree.

It also seems exceptionally wasteful of narrative space for the Giant to spend all that time showing his disconnect and deterioration over the comic, including a separate non-mainline book which fleshes him out, and then promptly toss Redcloak out like a misbehaving cat and replace him with some other caster(s). I genuinely don't think Burlew is going to do that.

[Metastachydium]

All right, let me rephrase it then: it doesn't require the addition of a new character or entity that we've never heard anything about and which would seem to serve zero purpose in the story other than to undermine Redcloak's presence in the story.


Right. If Rat Elemental's math is correct, it would require the addition of at least three new characters or entities we've never heard anything about (if Jirix will serve as no. 4) which would seem to serve zero purpose in the story other than to undermine Redcloak's presence in the story.

[KorvinStarmast]

My personal prediction is that this exchange will become a seed of doubt, and I look forward to seeing it bear some fruit down the road. Likewise.

It's kinda funny, in a tragic way, how much in opposition Redcloak's methods are to his goals. He's planning on building a treehouse in the tree he just cut down for materials. If Redcloak is destroyed, that certainly pivots the threat to the world as whatever artifact and vessel IFCC have cooked up. More than once in this series, Roy thinks "OK, we are finally on the cusp of saving the world" only to have the rug pulled out from him again." Back in the end of BRiTF, he mentioned "We don't really know what's going on" and Belkar had mentioned that "Someone is yanking everyone's chain." That chain is still being yanked. IFCC and the Inviso Kidnappers have their hands on the chain, among others. Hel was a major chain puller in the last book.
On the OTHER hand, Redcloak getting killed via a machination of Xykon's might piss him off enough for his spirit to try and convince the Dark One to side with the other gods to save the other goblins (if DO would even be willing is up in the air of course) A different way to get at purple quiddity? Well, TDO told Reddie through Jirix "Don't screw this up." I can see Reddie showing up after being waxed by Xykon and TDO's only comment to Reddie being "I told you, don't screw this up. You screwed it up! No quiddity {soup} for you!"

In retrospect, Durkon should've suggested fixing the Gobbotopia rift as the test case. How does he get Reddie away from Xykon to contribute to that fix? (We, on the outside, know that if Redcloak betrays Xykon MiTD eats him ... )

[Ionathus]

Honestly one thing I really like about Xykon is how his power and use of MitD as a trump keeps him relevant even though he knows jack all about the truth of the rifts and the Snarl. He's really well done as an unrelated Big Bad.

Of course, I expect that the "MitD was brainwashed to eat Redcloak in event of betrayal" is a Chekhov's Gun, and that it will be fired. However, I give it less than 50/50 odds of actually killing Redcloak. Especially since that was before MitD ever started to think like a Good Guy, he might even resist the effect and choose not to eat Redcloak.

I feel like that brainwashing was mostly to demonstrate that Xykon still doesn't trust Redcloak, and has several aces up his sleeve in case of betrayal. Like Xykon's Astral Fortress, I think it's much more important as an example of Xykon's distrust than it is an actual threat to the story.


Right. If Rat Elemental's math is correct, it would require the addition of at least three new characters or entities we've never heard anything about (if Jirix will serve as no. 4) which would seem to serve zero purpose in the story other than to undermine Redcloak's presence in the story.

Exactly this. The story has established "Recloak casts a 9th level spell in your favor" as the goal. It's the simplest solution. Why not assume that this will be the solution, and that achieving it will simply be difficult?

[Psyren]

I love Oona. If Redcloak dies, can she be the new High Priest? :smallbiggrin:

Given that she's almost certainly a Ranger, I'm guessing not?

[Ionathus]

Given that she's almost certainly a Ranger, I'm guessing not?

Watching The Dark One try to communicate with her as the new High Priest, and getting progressively more frustrated at her blase attitude towards him, would be very amusing, but perhaps more appropriate for a spin-off Marvel Alternate Universe Disney+ show.

[Joe the Rat]

I missed that Worg.

[Meroim]

You hit this one out of the park, Rich.

Great stuff!

[Snails]

All right, let me rephrase it then: it doesn't require the addition of a new character or entity that we've never heard anything about and which would seem to serve zero purpose in the story other than to undermine Redcloak's presence in the story.

We know that there are a lot of goblinoid clerics so the question is about whether they can pull it off rather than whether they even exist in the first place.

If these other clerics were a practical source of purple quiddity at all, then Thor would be a fool for not offer talking to Jirix as a Plan C for Durkon in the case that the last Gate were safe enough but reality here is still an ongoing risk from the four blown Gates plus fifth that should be reinforced. Jirix, after all, would be well motivated to negotiate towards the interests of a city full of living and breathing goblins, and less interested in Redcloak's theoretical musings about how to win.

Tangent...

It is interesting to note how Redcloak fell so deeply down the classic moral chasm of ends justify the means thinking, where theorized benefits in an imagined future are sufficient excuse for any and all unnecessary bloodletting today.

At least when Tarquin did it on a grand scale, he did not pretend to genuinely care about the little people in either the now or the future -- this was a rhetorical weapon against people like Elan who do care.

Redcloak is actually telling himself that his own Plan A is so great for goblins, that it is simply not worth considering alternatives that bring an unexpected ally in on the game.

[PontificatusRex]

Hmm, new thought (for me anyway) - Instead of Redcloak betraying Xykon to save the world, what if the Order ends up allying with Xykon to stop Redcloak from destroying the world? He has made it clear that his number one priority is survival and avoiding the Big Fire waiting for him, after all.

On the other hand, Xykon might prefer the non-existence of being zapped by the Snarl to eternal punishment...

[gatemansgc]

i wonder which periodic elemental redcloak was about to summon?

love how this literal battle is considered a classic bugbear debate technique by oona.

[understatement]

i wonder which periodic elemental redcloak was about to summon?


Sodium, obviously.

***

In regards to getting other goblin clerics, you have to

a) have Thor tell Durkon and/or Minrah of this possibility.
b) have them tell the Order of this possibility.
c) procure some method of transport that has these goblins travel thousands of miles up to the north
d) assume that the Dark One won't pull their spellcasting plug.
e) whoops, not high enough level.

[Snails]

Of course, I expect that the "MitD was brainwashed to eat Redcloak in event of betrayal" is a Chekhov's Gun, and that it will be fired. However, I give it less than 50/50 odds of actually killing Redcloak. Especially since that was before MitD ever started to think like a Good Guy, he might even resist the effect and choose not to eat Redcloak.

I feel like that brainwashing was mostly to demonstrate that Xykon still doesn't trust Redcloak, and has several aces up his sleeve in case of betrayal. Like Xykon's Astral Fortress, I think it's much more important as an example of Xykon's distrust than it is an actual threat to the story.

I agree because...

(1) MitD eating Redcloak for betraying Xykon, even if it is a magical compulsion, would not be a satisfying moment for MitD, at this point in the story given MitD's character growth so far. It made sense as a threat earlier, given who we believed he was back then. He is becoming his own man, and this looks like backtracking on character growth.

(2) It is unlikely that The Giant would include such an important moment in the story without sufficient Online Comic justification, i.e. revenge for Xykon is to bizarre to understand for someone who has not read the prequel books.

So, while it is still quite possible that the MitD will attempt to eat Redcloak, the most apparent motivation will surely be something that is justified to who the MitD is becoming. In fact, it is highly likely to be a motivation that someone like O-Chul would approve of (even if the tactics may not be very paladin-like).

[RatElemental]

Which is not a given.

Neither is Redcloak getting a heel realization, so I guess we can all just go home. No point speculating what might happen, let's just read the comic and then leave and wait for the next one to be posted.

[Snails]

Sodium, obviously.

You are awesome.

Nobelium is possible, too, but yours is the better answer.

[Roland Itiative]

I have a small question about D&D rules: do Redcloak's healing spells work on those sick burns he's taking? :smalltongue:

[Metastachydium]

I agree because...

(1) MitD eating Redcloak for betraying Xykon, even if it is a magical compulsion, would not be a satisfying moment for MitD, at this point in the story given MitD's character growth so far. It made sense as a threat earlier, given who we believed he was back then. He is becoming his own man, and this looks like backtracking on character growth.

(2) It is unlikely that The Giant would include such an important moment in the story without sufficient Online Comic justification, i.e. revenge for Xykon is to bizarre to understand for someone who has not read the prequel books.

So, while it is still quite possible that the MitD will attempt to eat Redcloak, the most apparent motivation will surely be something that is justified to who the MitD is becoming. In fact, it is highly likely to be a motivation that someone like O-Chul would approve of (even if the tactics may not be very paladin-like).

It would also be a good throwback to DCF-Xykon being unable to get the Monster to devour his enemies.

[morikahn]

I just have to say "Hypocritical Hit" is a very clever name for this page.

[Ionathus]

Neither is Redcloak getting a heel realization, so I guess we can all just go home. No point speculating what might happen, let's just read the comic and then leave and wait for the next one to be posted.

This is a false equivalency.

It's one thing to speculate that many weak Goblinoid clerics could combine to reproduce Redcloak's abilities. I disagree with this assumption, but you can definitely still make it, and we can speculate about it.

It's quite another thing to compare that logical jump to the explicitly-stated goal of Thor & Co.

One option ("convince Redcloak to help") has been set up by the comic already. The other option ("multiple unnamed, unknown goblinoid clerics materialize out of nowhere and are convinced to help, despite not having Redcloak's 9th level spell slots") is wild mass guessing. Many, many things need to be assumed in order to get that to work, narratively, and it would still be less satisfying than the "convince Redcloak" plan.

It's totally fair to submit your theory as possible. But it's nowhere near as established as The Order's current goal.

[Ghosty]

...I agree that it's unlikely that Durkon is going to be using Word of Recall, although I disagree with the notion that the protagonists should be disallowed from sacrificing high level spell slots for disengagement opportunities with strict limitations. For me that falls a bit short of the line of 'too convenient for the good guys to have'...

I've thought Refuge might've worked well, when it was just Durkon that needed to be whooshed back to the Order. Have V Scry on the area to know when to break the item and get Durkon back. Having Maxrah (LOL) around complicated things. Great lines from her though. Quite subversive.

[Olinser]

It's kinda funny, in a tragic way, how much in opposition Redcloak's methods are to his goals. He's planning on building a treehouse in the tree he just cut down for materials.

I don't think we'd be spending this much time pointing out the (many, many) flaws in Redcloak's reasoning if he's just going to be replaced later on. He's going to have a wake-up call at some point, probably not soon, and then ... Well, i originally considered him irredeemable (not for his actions, but because of his unwillingness to own up to them for what they are), but i've come to believe there's a chance. It's still possible for a plausible, narratively satisfying alternative to Thor's plan to be brought up, but i wouldn't bet on Redcloak not being involved.

I don't think Redcloak IS going to have a wake-up call. I think that he's going to get killed by MitD when he finally tries to betray Xykon firing the setup from so long ago, and then he finally meets the Dark One, who was watching this entire exchange, and who tells him to shut up and do the ritual. And I think that he's going to refuse to do it, get mind controlled, and have it done for him.

Because all of this is just to feed REDCLOAK's ego and victim complex. He's just using being the priest of the Dark One as an excuse. HE is the one making the plans, and HE knows better.

[Sapphire Guard]

Reddy has no real reason to believe them, sadly. Makes sense. He might be more open with time to reflect, or TDO might have a different opinion.

They're doing rather well against him, though.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Yeah! Best present ever, Giant. A comic to read! :smallbiggrin:

Noice.

Also, this frank exchange of ideas going down in the strip is quite refreshing. Minrah is certainly pulling her weight and thensome. Hitting well above her weight class, even, despite being a giant dwarf.

Pizza is very pleased. I wonder if Redcloak might try and confirm any of what's being said with his God, if he finds it troublesome or worrying that it might be true.

If that message gets to the Dark One then that might change Redcloak's mission priorities, even if he's too stubborn to admit he was wrong.

[Metastachydium]

Neither is Redcloak getting a heel realization, so I guess we can all just go home. No point speculating what might happen, let's just read the comic and then leave and wait for the next one to be posted.

This is a false equivalency.

It's one thing to speculate that many weak Goblinoid clerics could combine to reproduce Redcloak's abilities. I disagree with this assumption, but you can definitely still make it, and we can speculate about it.

It's quite another thing to compare that logical jump to the explicitly-stated goal of Thor & Co.

One option ("convince Redcloak to help") has been set up by the comic already. The other option ("multiple unnamed, unknown goblinoid clerics materialize out of nowhere and are convinced to help, despite not having Redcloak's 9th level spell slots") is wild mass guessing. Many, many things need to be assumed in order to get that to work, narratively, and it would still be less satisfying than the "convince Redcloak" plan.

It's totally fair to submit your theory as possible. But it's nowhere near as established as The Order's current goal.

Precisely. Something established as a possible course of action and a „nameless extras save the world” kind of solution are simply not playing in the same league.
Further, I'd say even „Redcloak needs a heel realization” is a false assumption. Were he to stick to the Plan because of his obsessions andf fallacies and only those (which is debatable), circumventing this obstacle would still be possible. As some of you might know, my personal pet theory is that Team Good Guys should just give Redcloak the Gate (i.e. let him ”win”). If the Dark One is to be believed, he would establish contact with the other gods soon afterwards, and it is possible that he would agree to try out their offer of getting a bigger, better gun with superior magazine capacity (if the majority opinion is correct and spot-welding means permanent leverage) than the Gate-nuke, because he could feel safe with a weapon of mass detruction in his pocket to fall back on.


Reddy has no real reason to believe them, sadly. Makes sense. He might be more open with time to reflect, or TDO might have a different opinion.


That's what I keep saying. I mean, Redcloak is treated as a lunatic by numerous posters for not believing an improbable story told by his enemies. It is funny how assuming that the previous world was just like the one they live in, and so will be the next one (even if the gods will try to eliminate goblins from the equation out of spite) somehow makes Redcloak an idiot, while the Crayons of Time establishes the fact that Shojo/the Order/both also appear not to be able to picture the first world as anything other than a stick-figure universe with dragons, halflings and stuff (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html), and somehow that is perfectly reasonable.

[Rogar Demonblud]

How does he get Reddie away from Xykon to contribute to that fix? (We, on the outside, know that if Redcloak betrays Xykon MiTD eats him ... )

Word of Recall. Plane Shift. Wind Walk. Gate. Et cetera. Redcloak has plenty of ways to get around, and we don't know how long that ritual takes. If it's short enough, RC can bop out, participate, and be back before Xykon notices enough to care. Especially if he times it right for about when he renews spells and Xykon doesn't expect to see him anyway.

[KorvinStarmast]

If that message gets to the Dark One then that might change Redcloak's mission priorities, even if he's too stubborn to admit he was wrong. That's a non trivial hurdle to get over.

[Ionathus]

...my personal pet theory is that Team Good Guys should just give Redcloak the Gate (i.e. let him ”win”). If the Dark One is to be believed, he would establish contact with the other gods soon afterwards, and it is possible that he would agree to try out their offer of getting a bigger, better gun with superior magazine capacity (if the majority opinion is correct and spot-welding means permanent leverage) than the Gate-nuke, because he could feel safe with a weapon of mass detruction in his pocket to fall back on.

My assumption was that the Gods would never let it get that far: if TDO's High Priest got close to completing the ritual, I'd expect the gods would just unmake the world right then and there to stop him from getting that control.

[Askthepizzaguy]

God, now I just want about a dozen pages of Oona and Minrah talking. Two very blunt, to the point people who are completely different in their viewpoints and experiences just dukin' it out.

Also, go Minrah! Back in the Inbetween Months between the new book and UD, people were being dismissive of her and her compelling inclusion in the cast, and she's smashed those expectations with a bang. Or a boom, in the case of lightning, I suppose.

I wasn't sure how big a role she would play or how she would do, but Rich's narrative just keeps getting better and better. It's been a long time since I've ever felt worried about how the comic would turn out. The ending of the Durkon is a vampire arc sold me that we're all in the hands of a very experienced and talented writer who is going to land this narrative plane like Captain Sully. Flawlessly.

I just trust this man at this point. He can take this story anywhere he wants, and any new characters he introduces won't be shallow props, either. There's been a reason and an arc behind almost everyone except one shot gag characters.

And I feel like one of those who wasn't really a gag might come back. Maybe the gnome shop lady that Belkar liked enough to feel bad about ripping her off. I don't know.

Whatever it is, will surprise me and be excellent to read. This whole book I'm so excited for. More than the last season of game of thrones to be sure.

[Kereea]

I don't think Redcloak IS going to have a wake-up call. I think that he's going to get killed by MitD when he finally tries to betray Xykon firing the setup from so long ago, and then he finally meets the Dark One, who was watching this entire exchange, and who tells him to shut up and do the ritual. And I think that he's going to refuse to do it, get mind controlled, and have it done for him.

Because all of this is just to feed REDCLOAK's ego and victim complex. He's just using being the priest of the Dark One as an excuse. HE is the one making the plans, and HE knows better.

To be entirely fair, we know VERY little about the Dark One as a character and therefore it could go very sideways with him. But yes, this is entirely something that could happen--however, given TDO allegedly communicates via feelings within the mantle, you'd think he'd be FEELING his intentions as strongly as he could at Redcloak if he did have a strong opinion on the matter. Again, this is a god whose most direct communication is having someone else pass along "Don't screw this up. No pressure though" which was recently brought up again during the parley. We really know so little about TDO as a person, only the perception various other characters (Redcloak, Jirix, Right Eye, Oona, other gods) have of him. So while it's a possibility, the probability is entirely up in the air. Tho it would be cool to see his part of the Astral.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I love how Redcloak is constantly switching beween "I" and "We". Meaning that not even himself believes that his talking is representative of the Goblinoid People.

Absolutely. He keeps talking, but his arguments continue to represent things he wishes were true, rather than are true.

It's happened so often that the author is practically screaming this character flaw of Redcloak at us. And it's not only anvillicious, but it's a point that badly needs to be made about Redcloak, and I've been defending his POV as a character for several strips.

He's got a legitimate beef and he's got some good reasons to not trust Durkon here. At the same time, he's full of it and he knows it. He is trying to fill bigger shoes than he honestly can, and he's seriously lacking in being honest with himself, let alone the others around him.

He has a grievance, and his strategy seems to be working so it makes sense for his character to continue.

But he's also lying to everyone and himself about his own moral status or his representing the goblinoid point of view. He can't make that claim, but he keeps trying to.

It's wishful thinking, and "Wishing for a thing does not make it so". Jean-Luc Picard.

[Particle_Man]

Cool stuff! I love Minrah!

I honestly don't know if the "and and" in panel 11 is a typo or just the way Minrah is talking right now.

[Wimblesaurus]

I just want a spinoff comic with Minrah, Greyview, and Oona. Utterly Dwarfed had some great new characters.

[understatement]

Whatever it is, will surprise me and be excellent to read. This whole book I'm so excited for. More than the last season of game of thrones to be sure.

To be fair, was anyone excited for the last season?

-

Since the message delivered in this comic couldn't be hit harder than Redcloak himself, I'll just toss in that

Redcloak's "overgrown dwarven ass" had to make me laugh: it's much appreciated when characters can recognize a living, breathing oxymoron.

Durkon's "weird elemental thing" phrase: I guess the Ti elements really left an impression on him.

The 3rd and 4th panels are hilarious togetheer: Minrah whaps Redcloak in the face, and then starts to deal out discussion.

[Fincher]

This is a false equivalency.

It's one thing to speculate that many weak Goblinoid clerics could combine to reproduce Redcloak's abilities. I disagree with this assumption, but you can definitely still make it, and we can speculate about it.

It's quite another thing to compare that logical jump to the explicitly-stated goal of Thor & Co.

One option ("convince Redcloak to help") has been set up by the comic already. The other option ("multiple unnamed, unknown goblinoid clerics materialize out of nowhere and are convinced to help, despite not having Redcloak's 9th level spell slots") is wild mass guessing. Many, many things need to be assumed in order to get that to work, narratively, and it would still be less satisfying than the "convince Redcloak" plan.

It's totally fair to submit your theory as possible. But it's nowhere near as established as The Order's current goal.

That Redcloak has been presented as a way to seal the Snarl and no alternative yet has is a fact. That it's more satisfying that way is an opinion, and one I don't happen to agree with. I think the most interesting/compelling thing Redcloak can do is refuse to do the right thing, fail because of it, and not be the "hero" who saves the goblins whether or not the goblins do get saved.

[Shining Wrath]

Regarding whether or not Xykon learned anything from this discussion:
In panel #7, he learns that Redcloak is OK with the gods destroying the entire world and every goblin dying. Every goblin dying doesn't bother Xykon a bit, but the implication is that everyone else dies, too. Including Xykon.
And Xykon's single biggest motivation is to live forever, because he knows there's an afterlife, and that the afterlife for evil people is three steps beyond extremely unpleasant. I believe he described it as "avoid the fire down below", although I can't remember which strip it was.
So - Xykon, if he's listening, just learned that Redcloak is willing to kill Xykon and himself to benefit future goblins. The degree to which Xykon is not OK with that is not easily described. At a minimum, his distrust of Redcloak would be doubled or trebled. Possibly, he will not perform his half of the ritual unless he's certain the gods aren't going to pull the plug on him.
Minor nit: "not enough gas in the tank" is not really a phrase a medieval-world dwarf would use. "Food in the pantry" works better.

[RatElemental]

This is a false equivalency.

It's one thing to speculate that many weak Goblinoid clerics could combine to reproduce Redcloak's abilities. I disagree with this assumption, but you can definitely still make it, and we can speculate about it.

It's quite another thing to compare that logical jump to the explicitly-stated goal of Thor & Co.

One option ("convince Redcloak to help") has been set up by the comic already. The other option ("multiple unnamed, unknown goblinoid clerics materialize out of nowhere and are convinced to help, despite not having Redcloak's 9th level spell slots") is wild mass guessing. Many, many things need to be assumed in order to get that to work, narratively, and it would still be less satisfying than the "convince Redcloak" plan.

It's totally fair to submit your theory as possible. But it's nowhere near as established as The Order's current goal.

You're painting the option I present as more unreasonable than it actually is. They don't need to materialize out of nowhere, it's established that the Dark One has a lot of clerics. And there's a whole city full of goblinoids now, including all of the surviving clerics from the invasion force that took it. As for being less satisfying that convincing Redcloak, that also is debatable. It could come down to the heroes contacting Gobbotopia and making an offer, and then you've got a nice contrast between Redcloak and what he's been doing and what the goblin people themselves would choose when given a chance.

[Fish]

I think Redcloak is going to have a come-to-Dark-One moment. Ironically, it's going to be when
he finds out the Dark One is dead. Dead, or discorporated.

Seriously, did I never realize before that the Dark One wears a red cloak? Can that be the same red cloak that RC wears? (In my copy of Start of Darkness it looks more magenta, but that could be due to the aura glow.)

RC could be a cleric of a cause, not realizing that the god he follows has been dead for a while. Nobody has been communicating with him for a while except possibly Jirix.

[WanderingMist]

I think Redcloak is going to have a come-to-Dark-One moment. Ironically, it's going to be when
he finds out the Dark One is dead. Dead, or discorporated.

Seriously, did I never realize before that the Dark One wears a red cloak? Can that be the same red cloak that RC wears? (In my copy of Start of Darkness it looks more magenta, but that could be due to the aura glow.)

RC could be a cleric of a cause, not realizing that the god he follows has been dead for a while. Nobody has been communicating with him for a while except possibly Jirix.

But then Thor's Plan would have had no chance of working in the first place. Also, The Dark One still has a lot of worshippers. It's the time between worlds when gods without enough die. Banjo only had Elan and he was in no danger of dying.

[hungrycrow]

But then Thor's Plan would have had no chance of working in the first place. Also, The Dark One still has a lot of worshippers. It's the time between worlds when gods without enough die. Banjo only had Elan and he was in no danger of dying.

It's too nonsensical to be true, but maybe Loki and friends killed TDO and have just been playing Weekend at Bernie's this whole time.

[Doug Lampert]

I don't think Redcloak IS going to have a wake-up call. I think that he's going to get killed by MitD when he finally tries to betray Xykon firing the setup from so long ago, and then he finally meets the Dark One, who was watching this entire exchange, and who tells him to shut up and do the ritual. And I think that he's going to refuse to do it, get mind controlled, and have it done for him.

Because all of this is just to feed REDCLOAK's ego and victim complex. He's just using being the priest of the Dark One as an excuse. HE is the one making the plans, and HE knows better.

The problems will be solved by TOotS, this means that if TDO does something that solves the problems, it will be motivated by the actions of TOotS, not by Durkon saying a few things to try to convince Red Cloak and it actually convincing TDO instead.


To be entirely fair, we know VERY little about the Dark One as a character and therefore it could go very sideways with him. But yes, this is entirely something that could happen--however, given TDO allegedly communicates via feelings within the mantle, you'd think he'd be FEELING his intentions as strongly as he could at Redcloak if he did have a strong opinion on the matter. Again, this is a god whose most direct communication is having someone else pass along "Don't screw this up. No pressure though" which was recently brought up again during the parley. We really know so little about TDO as a person, only the perception various other characters (Redcloak, Jirix, Right Eye, Oona, other gods) have of him. So while it's a possibility, the probability is entirely up in the air. Tho it would be cool to see his part of the Astral.

I largely agree, but I think "up in the air" is a bit too generous. As far as I'm concerned, TDO isn't a character at all. He's a plot device to motivate Red Cloak.

We've NEVER seen him act in comic. He's part of the universe background material. He's shown less agency than the Snarl.

Durkon accidentally convinced TDO while trying to convince Red Cloak is basically an entirely out of left field idea.

[GrayDeath]

Well, that were some heavy hits from Mirah, both figuratively and less so.

And your Idea might have merit, but then, what would the cause be?

Goblinkind would have make him lose spellcasting by now, so....revenge? Proving he is right?

[Wizard_Lizard]

Ok, new favourite character, Oona.

[Riftwolf]

My Headcanon is Redcloak was going to summon a Sodium Elemental and everyone involved seriously dodged a bullet.

[Throknor]

Oh, come on. Being able to bail out of a fight is not trivializing on anywhere near the scale of being able to go wherever you like whenever you like.

If you were fighting in the first place, there was a reason for it (or the writer wasn't doing their job). You had something to win, or something to lose. Noping out of the fight means you don't win and you do lose. Whatever the stakes were, you forfeited them to the villain


In fact, Durkon using Word of Recall would make things harder for the rest of the Order (since that would leave them without clerics for some time), rather than solving their problems in a game-breaking way.

I'd like to throw my support behind these ideas with an in-comic illustration (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html). Contingency as used here is close enough to Word of Recall to make the point that simply escaping a fight might keep you alive but it could leave your allies much worse off. Scarf-guy didn't even reappear until after the fighting was over. May have had to wait until Laurin could retrieve him.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Nah, Myron can teleport to a place he's been. He just had to wait eight hours to memorize the spell.

[The_Weirdo]

Minrah is awesome.

Also, she has to gain at least a few levels from this battle. I mean, Redcloak's a near-epic caster. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, yes: also, Minrah's line of thinking is wonderfully Chaotic and reminds me of:

“The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in that future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present — they are real.” - Lois McMaster Bujold, Shards of Honour.

I can't tell you how much that speaks to me. Mostly because telling might not be kosher. :smalltongue:

And Greyview's back! I love Greyview, I really want him to make it out alive! :smallbiggrin:


My Headcanon is Redcloak was going to summon a Sodium Elemental and everyone involved seriously dodged a bullet.

Na...

[JSSheridan]

:xykon:: I've been listening since 1211, panel 7

[JT]

I have missed Greyview.

Nods head... gets treat?

[Darth Paul]

I agree because...

(1) MitD eating Redcloak for betraying Xykon, even if it is a magical compulsion, would not be a satisfying moment for MitD, at this point in the story given MitD's character growth so far. It made sense as a threat earlier, given who we believed he was back then. He is becoming his own man, and this looks like backtracking on character growth.

(2) It is unlikely that The Giant would include such an important moment in the story without sufficient Online Comic justification, i.e. revenge for Xykon is to bizarre to understand for someone who has not read the prequel books.

So, while it is still quite possible that the MitD will attempt to eat Redcloak, the most apparent motivation will surely be something that is justified to who the MitD is becoming. In fact, it is highly likely to be a motivation that someone like O-Chul would approve of (even if the tactics may not be very paladin-like).

What are the odds that the big reveal of MitD hinges around Xykon ordering him to eat Redcloak as per the old compulsion from Start Of Darkness, MitD deciding that he doesn't really want to, and further deciding that Xykon is the one who deserves to be eaten instead- and putting that plan into action, taking Xykon by surprise for one of the few times in his unlife, and disposing of the Big Bad in a wholly unexpected way? The OotS will still have to deal with the whole End of the Universe problem, but- just imagine.

Not that I think for one moment that it's actually going to break down that way.

[The_Weirdo]

Nods head... gets treat?

It's rather fitting how he's supposedly Neutral Evil and at the same time someone that would be perfectly fine living in Hades. Nod. Get treat.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Very fitting, since Hades is the NE plane.

[The_Weirdo]

Very fitting, since Hades is the NE plane.

<_<

>_>

*Nods*

[Rogar Demonblud]

*gets treat*

[Spanish_Paladin]

Get out of there now you can, my beloved dwarves!!

[Ruck]

Na...

You do make a good joke periodically.

[The_Weirdo]

You do make a good joke periodically.

And you kept saying people like me were a bad element...

[HolyDraconus]

You do make a good joke periodically.


And you kept saying people like me were a bad element...

Out, tha both of ye!

[bravelove]

me: can I please stop getting intense feelings about redcloak
comic: absolutely not have more of it
me: thank you but also I'm dying

[The_Weirdo]

Out, tha both of ye!

What, do you find the puns Boron?

[KorvinStarmast]

I think Redcloak is going to have a come-to-Dark-One moment. Ironically, it's going to be when
he finds out the Dark One is dead. Dead, or discorporated.

Seriously, did I never realize before that the Dark One wears a red cloak? Can that be the same red cloak that RC wears? (In my copy of Start of Darkness it looks more magenta, but that could be due to the aura glow.)

RC could be a cleric of a cause, not realizing that the god he follows has been dead for a while. Nobody has been communicating with him for a while except possibly Jirix. Brilliant. And if you are right: Wow!

[Sesharan]

So out of pure curiosity, I went ahead and put together a list of the resources that each team has spent in this "negotiation".

Redcloak:

Stone Shape - 3rd level spell slot
Implosion - 9th level spell slot
Harm - 6th level spell slot
Animate Object - 6th level spell slot
Summon Monster - could be any spell slot, but most likely in the V to VII range in order to be a reasonable match for Maxrah.
Unholy Blight - 4th level spell slot
Healing spell - I'm guessing 4th level spell slot (Cure Critical Wounds), but Redcloak was beat up enough that it might be a 6th level Heal.

Team Dwarven Cleric:

Wall of Stone - 5th level spell slot
Mass Death Ward - 7th or 8th level slot, probably?
Thor's Might - probably an activated effect of the hammer?

...So if Durkon's secondary goal with this encounter was to drain enough spell slots that Redcloak feels the need to slow down on dungeon delving for the rest of the day, he'd be doing a pretty good job.

[KorvinStarmast]

Redcloak:

{spells}
Team Dwarven Cleric:

{spells}

...So if Durkon's secondary goal with this encounter was to drain enough spell slots that Redcloak feels the need to slow down on dungeon delving for the rest of the day, he'd be doing a pretty good job. But Durkon's goal is to coax a 9th level spell's worth of quiddity out of him. That Is His Goal. (As a lifelong Goal-Oriented person (as my psychologist states in his written summary) I completely get Goals).
In other words, Durkon wants to hear from Thor:
Goal! Goal! Goal! Goal! Goal!
What?
I played soccer since age 4.

[Arkain]

Yet again, it's all about "him" winning, not goblinkind, that's just seems to be a bonus. Sad, but entirely plausible that Redcloak may see this entire encounter as yet more vindication for his cause, especially because Minrah seems to be really hitting a nerve there.

[The_Weirdo]

I played soccer since age 4.

I bet you'd win against me. Easily. :smallbiggrin:

[understatement]

So out of pure curiosity, I went ahead and put together a list of the resources that each team has spent in this "negotiation".

Redcloak:

Stone Shape - 3rd level spell slot
Implosion - 9th level spell slot
Harm - 6th level spell slot
Animate Object - 6th level spell slot
Summon Monster - could be any spell slot, but most likely in the V to VII range in order to be a reasonable match for Maxrah.
Unholy Blight - 4th level spell slot
Healing spell - I'm guessing 4th level spell slot (Cure Critical Wounds), but Redcloak was beat up enough that it might be a 6th level Heal.

Team Dwarven Cleric:

Wall of Stone - 5th level spell slot
Mass Death Ward - 7th or 8th level slot, probably?
Thor's Might - probably an activated effect of the hammer?

...So if Durkon's secondary goal with this encounter was to drain enough spell slots that Redcloak feels the need to slow down on dungeon delving for the rest of the day, he'd be doing a pretty good job.

Mass Death Ward is 7th (Durkon is ~13-14, and the Giant had not realized that MDW was an actual 8th spell). Thor's Might is most likely from Minrah, since she was about to give the hammer to Durkon. Also, Durkon has previously casted Wind Walk and a Sending, so he can't cast these as cures.

But yeah, they're doing an okay job of attrition. However, regarding spells fifth and above (which are where most cleric offensive spells are found):

Redcloak has around 19 spells, while Durkon has 9 and Minrah has 2, all discounting possible bonus spells from wisdom. The dwarves' edge here is Maxrah's size and that Redcloak is possibly very low on spells. Unfortunately, Minrah's TM spell will run out soon.

[danielxcutter]

I figure that Redcloak is a “caster-type” cleric, where Durkon is a hybrid and Minrah is almost full melee-type. Redcloak doesn’t bother with melee, Durkon both utilizes his spells and makes himself better at hitting things with his hammer, and Minrah mostly just uses non-buff spells when necessary like healing or spells that are particularly useful like Searing Light on a perceived vampire.

So yeah I wouldn’t be surprised if Redcloak has more spells(relative to his level) compared to Durkon or Minrah. Durkon even uses an Amulet of Natural Armor instead of a Periapt of Wisdom, so it’s possible that he lacks Wis-boosting items entirely.

[understatement]

I figure that Redcloak is a “caster-type” cleric, where Durkon is a hybrid and Minrah is almost full melee-type. Redcloak doesn’t bother with melee, Durkon both utilizes his spells and makes himself better at hitting things with his hammer, and Minrah mostly just uses non-buff spells when necessary like healing or spells that are particularly useful like Searing Light on a perceived vampire.

So yeah I wouldn’t be surprised if Redcloak has more spells(relative to his level) compared to Durkon or Minrah. Durkon even uses an Amulet of Natural Armor instead of a Periapt of Wisdom, so it’s possible that he lacks Wis-boosting items entirely.

What I'm confused about is why Redcloak doesn't carry a weapon or wear better armor at all? Don't clerics have profiency in certain types of weaponry and armor?

[Ellen]

If Redcloak died, he goes to the Goblin afterlife, right? And, if he goes to the Goblin afterlife, he meets the Dark One, doesn't he? And is it safe to assume, when meeting your god after you've died, that your god gets a reasonable rundown of your life? Especially things leading to its end?

What I mean is, if they kill Redcloak, will the Dark One get Thor's message?

I feel kind of horrible for wanting that, although it gives a new meaning to "Kill the messenger," and a bad pun justifies a lot.

[Dausuul]

What I'm confused about is why Redcloak doesn't carry a weapon or wear better armor at all? Don't clerics have profiency in certain types of weaponry and armor?
He does wear armor. His armor looks identical to Roy's except for the color scheme. Though it is curious that he doesn't use a shield.

He doesn't bother carrying a weapon because he'd never use it. Redcloak's personal tactics throughout the comic, all the way back to the Dungeon of Dorukan, have been "all spells, all the time." His spell selection is quite varied, mixing summons, buffs, heals, and save-or-die; but he never seems to pack the ones like Righteous Might or Divine Power that turn the cleric into a melee machine.

[danielxcutter]

What I'm confused about is why Redcloak doesn't carry a weapon or wear better armor at all? Don't clerics have profiency in certain types of weaponry and armor?

Heavy armor(which I believe he is wearing) and simple weapons unless you have the War Domain(which is irrelevant since Redcloak is going for “caster” rather than “melee”).

[PontificatusRex]

What I'm confused about is why Redcloak doesn't carry a weapon or wear better armor at all? Don't clerics have profiency in certain types of weaponry and armor?

Because Redcloak was first created to be the Usually Straight Man Henchman character, not an actual antagonist. By the time he evolved into being an actual threat on his own, he was already visually established as not carrying a weapon or wearing armor.

Quickly glancing through the archives, I don't think we even see him casting a spell until Strip 149 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html), though he does Bolster Undead in the final battle of Book 1.

[understatement]

Thanks for the information. I just went through SOD and it looks like he mentions he has "black armor," as well as Smite for a melee option.

[ebarde]

I'm pretty sure at this level anyway, his melee would only be competitive and useful if he centered his build around it at least somewhat

[dancrilis]

Quickly glancing through the archives, I don't think we even see him casting a spell until Strip 149 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html), though he does Bolster Undead in the final battle of Book 1.

95 Panel 9. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html)

[The MunchKING]

Minrah is awesome.

Also, she has to gain at least a few levels from this battle. I mean, Redcloak's a near-epic caster. :smallbiggrin:

IIRC if it's more than 8 levels above the CR she's expected to be able to handle, it drops precipitously, because the game assumes you were just there watching the more powerful people handle most of the fight.

[Riftwolf]

What, do you find the puns Boron?

He's too noble for them. He doesn't react.

[Potatopeelerkin]

IIRC if it's more than 8 levels above the CR she's expected to be able to handle, it drops precipitously, because the game assumes you were just there watching the more powerful people handle most of the fight.

I don't have a lot of D&D experience, so I'm not really clear on the rules. But isn't one of the main advantages of having a DM that the game doesn't have to assume anything? Wouldn't the DM just decide for themselves whether they earned the EXP?

[factotum]

I don't have a lot of D&D experience, so I'm not really clear on the rules. But isn't one of the main advantages of having a DM that the game doesn't have to assume anything? Wouldn't the DM just decide for themselves whether they earned the EXP?

Of course, the DM can make that decision if they choose, but there *are* stated guidelines in the books for how much XP to award for various things.

[HandofShadows]

Words are getting more critical hits than the weapons are on this page. :smallcool:

[saulsch]

First post! And of course it is about a typo:

There is a doubled word in Maxrah's word balloon in the third panel of the second page: "and and".

best,

saul

[aldeayeah]

Are there any other clerics of the Dark One capable of casting 9th level spells?
Jirix might be, although he seems to be as bad as RC, if not worse.

Myself, I'm hoping for a former Supreme Leader comeback (not sure if he's a spellcaster, he's never entered combat AFAIK), now that's the (hob)goblin you'd want to bargain with.

[Fyraltari]

Jirix might be, although he seems to be as bad as RC, if not worse.

Myself, I'm hoping for a former Supreme Leader comeback (not sure if he's a spellcaster, he's never entered combat AFAIK), now that's the (hob)goblin you'd want to bargain with.

It’s a common theory that Jirix is the former supreme leader.

[danielxcutter]

I think Jirix and/or the former Supreme Leader might make better leaders of Gobbtopia, yes, but I don’t think that warrants writing out Redcloak either.

[Potatopeelerkin]

Jirix might be, although he seems to be as bad as RC, if not worse.

Wait, what's wrong with Jirix?


Myself, I'm hoping for a former Supreme Leader comeback (not sure if he's a spellcaster, he's never entered combat AFAIK), now that's the (hob)goblin you'd want to bargain with.

I'm fairly sure the Supreme Leader is a cleric.

If it's the same Supreme Leader as took over the hobgoblin settlement in GDGU, which seems likely (and is what was implied), then he definitely is.


Of course, the DM can make that decision if they choose, but there *are* stated guidelines in the books for how much XP to award for various things.

Yeah, but why have a guideline that says you don't get EXP for defeating an enemy who is a much higher level than you? Surely you could just state that the player needs to defeat the opponent on their own merits to prevent mooching.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, but why have a guideline that says you don't get EXP for defeating an enemy who is a much higher level than you? Surely you could just state that the player needs to defeat the opponent on their own merits to prevent mooching.

If you need to defeat the ennemy yourself, then the guy who spent the whole fight healing and buffing their comrades shouldn’t get any XP. This feels wrong. If simply being in the team that beat the ennemy is enough, then the guy who is fifteen levels behind all other combattants and didn’t contribute anything notable to the fight should get as much XP as the rest which also feels wrong.

Ain’t no perfect recipe for every solution.

[aldeayeah]

Wait, what's wrong with Jirix?
It depends on how you read comic #833, his last appearance. Up to that point, Jirix was sucking up mightily to Team Evil, but a second after they leave, his face changes and he crushes an infernal roach.

You can read this in several ways, but my reading was that he would eschew Redcloak's (goblin-egalitarian) ways and become a standard issue (hobgoblin-supremacist) tyrant.

In my interpretation, Jirix and the Former Supreme Leader (FSL) are not the same. I think their demeanors are quite different - the FSL is always seen as cool and collected, almost like a goblin Vetinari, and tries to draw attention away from himself. On the other hand, Jirix puts himself in the middle of things, and randomly stomps on roaches, which to me is an indicator of mustache-twirling cruelty.

However, I think we can safely assume that the scheming FSL in "How the Paladin..." and the SL that abdicates to Redcloak in the main comic are one and the same, mainly because of the "Supreme Leader gear" visual gag, but also because they are similarly characterized as cunning individuals that were also good rulers.

The FSL is one of my favorite tertiary characters, and one can't deny that he brought unmatched prosperity to the hobgoblin settlements, which is the reason they were such a formidable force by the time Team Evil took over. Once you remove Team Evil and their sycophants out of the equation, one would think that he would make a bid for power again.

In many ways he's the polar opposite of Redcloak, in that he doesn't pretend to be a good person, but he consistenty does what he rationally considers to be the best for (hob)goblinkind.

tl;dr: jirix you better watch your gouda

[Metastachydium]

Absolutely. He keeps talking, but his arguments continue to represent things he wishes were true, rather than are true.

It's happened so often that the author is practically screaming this character flaw of Redcloak at us. And it's not only anvillicious, but it's a point that badly needs to be made about Redcloak, and I've been defending his POV as a character for several strips.

He's got a legitimate beef and he's got some good reasons to not trust Durkon here. At the same time, he's full of it and he knows it. He is trying to fill bigger shoes than he honestly can, and he's seriously lacking in being honest with himself, let alone the others around him.

He has a grievance, and his strategy seems to be working so it makes sense for his character to continue.

But he's also lying to everyone and himself about his own moral status or his representing the goblinoid point of view. He can't make that claim, but he keeps trying to.


(That is a very balanced and sympathetic take on the goblin and the problem at hand, and while I do not agree completely with each and every point you make, I like it.)


My assumption was that the Gods would never let it get that far: if TDO's High Priest got close to completing the ritual, I'd expect the gods would just unmake the world right then and there to stop him from getting that control.

(Most gods would evidently do anything and everything they can to prevent that. But here's the thing: safely creating a new world is always a collective effort based on a full consensus; I would not be surprised to learn that safely unmaking the world also requires such a consensus, so as long as the Godsmoot is not over (the result of which would force dissenters to cooperate as per the stupid god laws), even a small group of gods might be able to sabotage Armageddon Special for just long enough. And if Thor and his circles/allies would come to see giving Big Purple the Gate the only viable solution, they could perhaps do that.)

[Worldsong]

It depends on how you read comic #833, his last appearance. Up to that point, Jirix was sucking up mightily to Team Evil, but a second after they leave, his face changes and he crushes an infernal roach.

You can read this in several ways, but my reading was that he would eschew Redcloak's (goblin-egalitarian) ways and become a standard issue (hobgoblin-supremacist) tyrant.

In my interpretation, Jirix and the Former Supreme Leader (FSL) are not the same. I think their demeanors are quite different - the FSL is always seen as cool and collected, almost like a goblin Vetinari, and tries to draw attention away from himself. On the other hand, Jirix puts himself in the middle of things, and randomly stomps on roaches, which to me is an indicator of mustache-twirling cruelty.

On the other hand, the scheming FSL in "How the Paladin..." and the SL that abdicates to Redcloak are very heavily implied to be one and the same.

The FSL is one of my favorite tertiary characters, and one can't deny that he brought unmatched prosperity to the hobgoblin settlements, which is the reason they were such a formidable force by the time Team Evil took over. Once you remove Team Evil and their sycophants out of the equation, one would think that he would make a bid for power again.

In many ways he's the polar opposite of Redcloak, in that he doesn't pretend to be a good person, but he consistenty does what he rationally considers to be the best for (hob)goblinkind.

I don't really get how Jirix stomping on a demon roach somehow makes him a monster.

For one thing if a human stomped on a roach nobody would give a damn.

And yes this particular roach could talk but it was also a demon roach and I believe generally it's accepted that while goblinoids are sapient mortals who shouldn't be judged by their appearance demons, devils and daemons are literally made out of negative energy and evil intent and that kind of stuff. Which may sound like we're just shifting the discrimination but an important difference is that when you research a goblinoid you'll find blood and flesh and bones and no inherent ties to the Lower Planes, whereas if you researched demons you'd find that being hit by positive energy actively hurts them.

Arguably getting rid of a demon infestation when you're trying to establish a new nation which is meant to stand the test of time is a sign that you're taking your job seriously.

[Metastachydium]

If you need to defeat the ennemy yourself, then the guy who spent the whole fight healing and buffing their comrades shouldn’t get any XP. This feels wrong. If simply being in the team that beat the ennemy is enough, then the guy who is fifteen levels behind all other combattants and didn’t contribute anything notable to the fight should get as much XP as the rest which also feels wrong.

Ain’t no perfect recipe for every solution.

I'd say there could be recipes that are good enough. How about granting XP for succesfully performing the specific sort of actions you are supposed to perform in a given situation (be it fighting, healing, tanking attacks for the others &c.)?


I don't really get how Jirix stomping on a demon roach somehow makes him a monster.

For one thing if a human stomped on a roach nobody would give a damn.

And yes this particular roach could talk but it was also a demon roach and I believe generally it's accepted that while goblinoids are sapient mortals who shouldn't be judged by their appearance demons, devils and daemons are literally made out of negative energy and evil intent and that kind of stuff. Which may sound like we're just shifting the discrimination but an important difference is that when you research a goblinoid you'll find blood and flesh and bones and no inherent ties to the Lower Planes, whereas if you researched demons you'd find that being hit by positive energy actively hurts them.

Arguably getting rid of a demon infestation when you're trying to establish a new nation which is meant to stand the test of time is a sign that you're taking your job seriously.

Further, these roaches may or may not serve as spies for the IFCC, and Redcloak was trying to get rid of them before himself (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html).

[Potatopeelerkin]

It depends on how you read comic #833, his last appearance. Up to that point, Jirix was sucking up mightily to Team Evil, but a second after they leave, his face changes and he crushes an infernal roach.

I mean, Redcloak did win them a war and earn them a city, of course he's going to be on their side. He's definitely ticked off (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html) by Tsukiko's lack of respect for goblin life.

If crushing a roach counts as morally damning, then we're all gonna end up in hell.


If you need to defeat the ennemy yourself, then the guy who spent the whole fight healing and buffing their comrades shouldn’t get any XP. This feels wrong. If simply being in the team that beat the ennemy is enough, then the guy who is fifteen levels behind all other combattants and didn’t contribute anything notable to the fight should get as much XP as the rest which also feels wrong.

Ain’t no perfect recipe for every solution.

But... defeating a much stronger enemy and getting nothing for it feels wrong too! If there's no perfect recipe, why make the game decide in the first place? That's what the DM's for, surely. You could just provide some general guidelines and considerations so the DM can make a decision that seems appropriate.