On the Swallow mechanic: counterplay

[Crucius]

Hey there!

I'm planning on using a couple of monsters that can swallow the PC's. I like dishing out setbacks, but not total ownage, and I get the feeling the swallowed 'condition' falls in the latter category.

If the target is a Medium or smaller creature, it must succeed on a DC 20 Dexterity saving throw or be swallowed by the wurm. A swallowed creature is blinded and restrained, has total cover against attacks and other effects outside the wurm, and takes 17 (5d6) acid damage at the start of each of the wurm's turns.
If the wurm takes 30 damage or more on a single turn from a creature inside it, the wurm must succeed on a DC 21 Constitution saving throw at the end of that turn or regurgitate all swallowed creatures, which fall prone in a space within 10 feet of the wurm. If the wurm dies, a swallowed creature is no longer restrained by it and can escape from the corpse by using 20 feet of movement, exiting prone.

So how exactly does one get out, or free their comrades from the bowels of the monster? (yeah I know; 30 damage, it says so in the text, but seriously)
-30 damage is a lot to dish out in one turn. My party is averaging 20 damage per turn per hero.
-A martial will have disadvantage on their attacks, and has to roll quite well to deal 30 damage in (probably) 2 attacks.
-A spellcaster is blinded so A LOT of their spells simply do not work suddenly, plus a lot of spells have a AoE, which reduces the amount of options even further.
-It's not like a bunch of PC's can stack up their damage in the round to all get free. Each person has to surpass the 30 damage threshold individually (but can then free everyone, so that's a plus)
-And I don't see a way to free an ally that has been swallowed from outside of the monster (bar maybe some teleportation spells I guess?).

I really want to use this monster, but I fear it will be very annoying for those that are swallowed, as they basically have no options, and no chance to get out. Does anyone have experience with a monster with swallow? Did you(r players) like it? Am I missing something obvious in the whole mechanic that could make it a tactically interesting fight?

I'm looking for general answers to these problems, so things like "a paladin can do 30 damage easily" is too specific and not constructive. It's not the paladin that I'm worried about, but the monk, warlock and wizard. :smallbiggrin:

[DeadMech]

I've had the same worries. I don't think I've ever seen someone get swallowed and get out on their own. Usually the damage bar is just too high and even if they somehow reach it the con save from something like the behir is only con 14 and it has a +4 modifier so 50/50 pass fail.

No, every time I've ever seen someone get swallowed they got out when the party killed the monster and dragged them out.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Funny you mentioned 'not a Paladin', because the first thing I thought of when I started reading the thread was the Paladin in our group who got swallowed by the Baby Kraken recently. That was probably the worst character for the Kraken to swallow as yes, by smiting the heck out of the Kraken guts he did force the regurgitation.

However, so far as the Wizard and Warlock in your group, they both have spells, so fire away. I'd argue for no Dex saves for AOE for the beast since there is really no way to avoid it. Your monk has Ki points, so probably now would be the time to use them. Just Nova. Sure, some of the spells at their disposal might bring the spellcasters to 0 HP as well, but how awesome would it be to blow the critter up from the inside then have your unconscious body thrown up for the rest of the group to heal!
With my previous example of the Paladin the group talked about the swallowing for the next 2 sessions; very memorable.

[MaxWilson]

Hey there!

I'm planning on using a couple of monsters that can swallow the PC's. I like dishing out setbacks, but not total ownage, and I get the feeling the swallowed 'condition' falls in the latter category.

If the target is a Medium or smaller creature, it must succeed on a DC 20 Dexterity saving throw or be swallowed by the wurm. A swallowed creature is blinded and restrained, has total cover against attacks and other effects outside the wurm, and takes 17 (5d6) acid damage at the start of each of the wurm's turns.
If the wurm takes 30 damage or more on a single turn from a creature inside it, the wurm must succeed on a DC 21 Constitution saving throw at the end of that turn or regurgitate all swallowed creatures, which fall prone in a space within 10 feet of the wurm. If the wurm dies, a swallowed creature is no longer restrained by it and can escape from the corpse by using 20 feet of movement, exiting prone.

So how exactly does one get out, or free their comrades from the bowels of the monster? (yeah I know; 30 damage, it says so in the text, but seriously)
-30 damage is a lot to dish out in one turn. My party is averaging 20 damage per turn per hero.
-A martial will have disadvantage on their attacks, and has to roll quite well to deal 30 damage in (probably) 2 attacks.
-A spellcaster is blinded so A LOT of their spells simply do not work suddenly, plus a lot of spells have a AoE, which reduces the amount of options even further.
-It's not like a bunch of PC's can stack up their damage in the round to all get free. Each person has to surpass the 30 damage threshold individually (but can then free everyone, so that's a plus)
-And I don't see a way to free an ally that has been swallowed from outside of the monster (bar maybe some teleportation spells I guess?).

I really want to use this monster, but I fear it will be very annoying for those that are swallowed, as they basically have no options, and no chance to get out. Does anyone have experience with a monster with swallow? Did you(r players) like it? Am I missing something obvious in the whole mechanic that could make it a tactically interesting fight?

I'm looking for general answers to these problems, so things like "a paladin can do 30 damage easily" is too specific and not constructive. It's not the paladin that I'm worried about, but the monk, warlock and wizard. :smallbiggrin:

Does the swallowed martial actually have disadvantage though? I think the RAI is that he does, but technically by RAW the advantage for being unseen by the target (because it can't see inside its own stomach) cancels out the disadvantage for being blinded and restrained.

It's hard to comment beyond that without knowing more details about your scenario and/or your PCs. Purple Worms can be interesting if you exploit their burrowing and high speed, and sort of portray them like a freight train which occasionally drives by to take a bite out of the party (or their mounts), preceded by enormous crunching sounds in the rock coming toward the PCs. (If you do this, make sure that the first thing that gets eaten is a horse or a monster rather than a PC, so they can get a hint of what it is they're facing.) You can even turn them into Purple Worm bombs via Polymorph (into e.g. a frog) and then throw them at other monsters before releasing concentration. If you don't have good spells for dealing with them then the tactical challenge is more likely to be something like "who can get from point A to point B without ever once setting foot on the ground, which activates the lurking Purple Worm's Tremorsense and results in your getting eaten?" which is probably going to be some kind of logistical challenge involving 10' poles, ropes, and Acrobatics.

BTW it is interesting that some creatures like the Giant Toad and the Banderhobb offer no way at all to escape other than killing the monster.

TL;DR swallowing isn't interesting, but swallowing monsters can still be tactically interesting. Try dropping a Behir or a Purple Worm into the middle of a combat between PCs and monsters, so that it becomes a three-way fight.

[Telok]

Possibly weird question, but why would being swallowed blind someone?

It wouldn't put out lights, and lots of races have darkvision anyways. There's room in there to swing an axe or a club and it doesn't do anything to your breathing or verbal spell components, so your head isn't covered. It's not magical darkness, which some people ignore anyways. It's not fog or smoke. Acid damage doesn't do it because there's no organ/limb damage mechanic attached.

Where's the blindness coming from?

[Crucius]

TL;DR swallowing isn't interesting, but swallowing monsters can still be tactically interesting. Try dropping a Behir or a Purple Worm into the middle of a combat between PCs and monsters, so that it becomes a three-way fight.

That does sound interesting! Alas, for this encounter my hands are tied, but for another I might do this, as part of an 'environmental' feature.

There will be four large bells hung throughout the room where the wurms will slam into when properly baited. They then take thunder damage (gave them a weakness to it as well) and it disables their tremorsense, meaning they have to emerge for that round, leaving them vulnerable to attack.

[Aett_Thorn]

Possibly weird question, but why would being swallowed blind someone?

It wouldn't put out lights, and lots of races have darkvision anyways. There's room in there to swing an axe or a club and it doesn't do anything to your breathing or verbal spell components, so your head isn't covered. It's not magical darkness, which some people ignore anyways. It's not fog or smoke. Acid damage doesn't do it because there's no organ/limb damage mechanic attached.

Where's the blindness coming from?

I believe that these are worded weirdly, but the intent was to say that the creature being swallowed can't see anything outside of the creature that it is in. Basically, you can see the stomach lining in front of you, and that's it, since you're restrained and in theory can't move your head much.

However, I do like the argument above that martials should be making straight rolls because the creature that swallowed them can't technically see them either.

[Yakk]

They are restrained; the stomach muscles are surrounding them and crushing them, and ccovering their eyes, which blinds them.

If you want to be generous, you could have the damage accumulate. Every 30 damage, DC 21 save for worm.

[elyktsorb]

I had a character get swallowed by a giant toad once and I had them cast heat metal on an object they had and dropped it.

[MrStabby]

So a few thoughts:

1) Is it a level appropriate encounter? From memory something like a Purple Wurm is CR15. I would expect the party to be at least level 13 if facing these. If they are below this, then its probably a deadly encounter for them... and we shouldn't complain that deadly encounters are deadly.

2) This is one area where martials do tend to do well - throwing out 30 damage in a round. From level 11 fighter gets 3 attacks, paladin smites, barbarian rages... by the time you are this level you are able to have a maxed attack stat and probably a feat to support a bonus action attack. Even a monk can burn 1ki for 4 attacks per round

3) We have always played that the creature swallowed is unseen by the swallower threfore no disadvantage. THis is kind of a big deal as this, combined with the typeiclally low AC of most things that swallow, means most attacks will land.

4) It is a scary ability. Let it be scary.

5) Reading into the description some things not explicitly said - death of the wurm freeing people implies it is actively keeping them swallowed so possibly incapacitation would break the restrained condition - also allowing 20ft movement to escape. This allows a few more options.

[Lunali]

-It's not like a bunch of PC's can stack up their damage in the round to all get free. Each person has to surpass the 30 damage threshold individually (but can then free everyone, so that's a plus)

Actually they can. As long as they're not relying on things that only work on their own turn (such as extra attack) for their damage, they can ready an action to attack at the same time.

[JackPhoenix]

Freedom of Movement arguably allows to escape from being swallowed: "The target can also spend 5 feet of movement to automatically escape from nonmagical restraints, such as manacles or a creature that has it grappled."

[Crucius]

So a few thoughts:

1) Is it a level appropriate encounter? From memory something like a Purple Wurm is CR15. I would expect the party to be at least level 13 if facing these. If they are below this, then its probably a deadly encounter for them... and we shouldn't complain that deadly encounters are deadly.

Yes. Well... kinda. There are two Wurms from the Ravnica book (CR14, though I will probably reduce the CR to 12) against a 6 headed party of level 8.
It's not deadliness that is my concern, it's the fun they're having (while being mauled to death). If there is no real chance of escaping, then the players who have their characters swallowed are not going to have a good time I think.



2) This is one area where martials do tend to do well - throwing out 30 damage in a round. From level 11 fighter gets 3 attacks, paladin smites, barbarian rages... by the time you are this level you are able to have a maxed attack stat and probably a feat to support a bonus action attack. Even a monk can burn 1ki for 4 attacks per round
It does feel like this is one of those monsters that the DMG warns about (the example there being the Rakshasa), where you probably need to be of a certain level before you can adequately tackle this monster. The monk in your example would need to land all four of its attacks or roll above average damage on three attacks to escape, all while having disadvantage, which is... well... tough against 18 AC. I might lower the AC inside the monster maybe, as there is no natural armor there. Yeah, that actually sounds good. A risky tactic to enter the beast and kill it from within (10 AC inside, which, even with disadvantage is still easier to hit than 18 AC).



3) We have always played that the creature swallowed is unseen by the swallower threfore no disadvantage. THis is kind of a big deal as this, combined with the typeiclally low AC of most things that swallow, means most attacks will land.
Well, the creature is also still restrained by the intestinal muscles, but with the internal AC being different, I think we reach the same goal: most attacks will land.

[Crucius]

Actually they can. As long as they're not relying on things that only work on their own turn (such as extra attack) for their damage, they can ready an action to attack at the same time.

Yes! Awesome! Thanks for the idea! See, I knew I was missing something!

[Dr. Cliché]

This isn't supported at all in the rules, but I've often wondered whether it would be possible for a swallowed creature to escape the stomach of the creature that swallowed it, but not the actual belly of said creature. That is, could they get into the internal space between stomach and outer skin(/scales/chitin) and try to attack the creature's vital organs? Probably something of a long-shot, but would be interesting to see if any DMs would allow it.



BTW it is interesting that some creatures like the Giant Toad and the Banderhobb offer no way at all to escape other than killing the monster.

My Moon Druid 'escaped' by Wild Shaping into a creature as large as the toad that swallowed her. :smallbiggrin:



Possibly weird question, but why would being swallowed blind someone?

It wouldn't put out lights, and lots of races have darkvision anyways. There's room in there to swing an axe or a club and it doesn't do anything to your breathing or verbal spell components, so your head isn't covered. It's not magical darkness, which some people ignore anyways. It's not fog or smoke. Acid damage doesn't do it because there's no organ/limb damage mechanic attached.

Where's the blindness coming from?

I've often wondered the same thing.

[nickl_2000]

If they can understand your language the command spell works. "Puke"

[Lunali]

If they can understand your language the command spell works. "Puke"

They also have to be able to obey the command. A human might be able to force it by triggering their gag reflex, but most things that would swallow a creature whole are likely to lack both the reflex and the appendages necessary to trigger it if they did have it.

[Yakk]

They can puke when they take damage in their guts.

The idea that they are 'resisting' puking as the thing in their guts thrashes about, and are only unable to resist once the damage passes 30 in a round, means that not resisting puking would be plausible at far lower levels of irritation.

(I mean, you can always find a reason for anything not to work in D&D as a DM; don't be a **** and look for them when someone uses an ability specifically intended to do something like it in an unusual situation where it plausibly applies. It isn't as if you'll be breaking the game with chain-casting command:puke for 15 more levels)

[nickl_2000]

They also have to be able to obey the command. A human might be able to force it by triggering their gag reflex, but most things that would swallow a creature whole are likely to lack both the reflex and the appendages necessary to trigger it if they did have it.

Stop applying real world implications to my ROC :smallsmile:

[patchyman]

However, so far as the Wizard and Warlock in your group, they both have spells, so fire away. I'd argue for no Dex saves for AOE for the beast since there is really no way to avoid it.

By the same token, wouldn’t the Wizard and Warlock be hit by their own AOE?

[Crucius]

However, so far as the Wizard and Warlock in your group, they both have spells, so fire away. I'd argue for no Dex saves for AOE for the beast since there is really no way to avoid it.

Alas, yee olde Blinded condition prevents you from casting most of the spells.

I could really use a list of spells that require sight. Oh Luuuuudiiiiiic! :smalltongue:

Edit: Well look at that. As per usual, I was one google away from finding the answer myself: https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Hk7zwD4Gxr

[Lunali]

They can puke when they take damage in their guts.

The idea that they are 'resisting' puking as the thing in their guts thrashes about, and are only unable to resist once the damage passes 30 in a round, means that not resisting puking would be plausible at far lower levels of irritation.

(I mean, you can always find a reason for anything not to work in D&D as a DM; don't be a **** and look for them when someone uses an ability specifically intended to do something like it in an unusual situation where it plausibly applies. It isn't as if you'll be breaking the game with chain-casting command:puke for 15 more levels)

As a DM I don't like setting a precedent that creatures can be commanded to do things they aren't able to do voluntarily. I'm not so much worried about 'vomit' as a command as I am something like 'sleep'.

[sithlordnergal]

As a DM I don't like setting a precedent that creatures can be commanded to do things they aren't able to do voluntarily. I'm not so much worried about 'vomit' as a command as I am something like 'sleep'.

I mean, most creatures can vomit voluntarily...Usually they don't because, you know, why would they? But they still can. As proven by a host of creatures that use vomit as a way to distract predators and escape.

[MaxWilson]

I mean, most creatures can vomit voluntarily...Usually they don't because, you know, why would they? But they still can.

But, interestingly, we cannot sneeze voluntarily.

[Dr. Cliché]

I can see creatures being able to vomit voluntarily, but could they really comply in just 6 seconds?

Seems like the most you'd get would be a bit of dry-heaving before the effect of the Command wore off. :smallwink:

[lukethecat2003]

Possibly weird question, but why would being swallowed blind someone?

It wouldn't put out lights, and lots of races have darkvision anyways. There's room in there to swing an axe or a club and it doesn't do anything to your breathing or verbal spell components, so your head isn't covered. It's not magical darkness, which some people ignore anyways. It's not fog or smoke. Acid damage doesn't do it because there's no organ/limb damage mechanic attached.

Where's the blindness coming from?

I think the intention is that it is restrained and blinded from the outside world, rather than the mouth. Thats my interpretation, because there probably isnt a proper ruling for swallowing that goes fully in depth. Anyway, as a DM I would definitely allow someone to blindly swing an ax and not give disadvantage or lower the AC by quite a bit due to the fact you are in a much squishier part of the beast as well as it would be easily findable on the ground.

[Phhase]

I actually built an NPC themed around this sort of thing. His name's Gutbuster Avreil, a black dragonborn. His main strategy for monster hunting is to use Prestidigitation and Minor Illusion to disguise himself as a delicious piece of meat. Then, once swallowed, he activates his dagger, which transforms into a lance, spitting the monster from the inside. I call him Courage the Cowardly Dragonborn, since he's a bit of a scaredycat.