Would you bend rules for exotic anatomy of a PC?

[TyGuy]

Would you allow a centaur to use a lance one handed without being mounted? Kind of considering itself as a mounted combatant. Why/ why not?

Would you allow an aaracokra to grapple a creature with its feet and fly while holding weapons/items in its hands? Why/ why not?

[Daracaex]

For the centaur, definitely and because it makes sense and it's not like it's a big deal when another character can just be on a horse anyway.

For the flying grappling thing, I'd say it majorly depends on the creature the Aaracokra is attempting to lift. A medium bird-person will not be able to lift something the same size as it. Maybe they'd be able to do so for a small creature, but I'd still impose checks or penalties. Below that, I'd say fair game.

[Demonslayer666]

Yes, I would allow both as either a PC or NPC.

I usually do not allow PCs to play those races though.

[MaxWilson]

Would you allow a centaur to use a lance one handed without being mounted? Kind of considering itself as a mounted combatant. Why/ why not?

Would you allow an aaracokra to grapple a creature with its feet and fly while holding weapons/items in its hands? Why/ why not?

For a centaur and a lance, no, because to the best of my knowledge the reason you can use it one-handed while mounted is because you're using your horse's body and/or tack to steady the lance, instead of using your hand. I'd allow it for a backwards centaur which was a headless horse at the front and a human torso growing out of the back, but those kinds of centaurs don't exist.

For Aarakocra, I'm not sure, I'd have to look at a picture of an Aarakocra to judge how hand-like and dextrous its feet are. However, I'm starting from a position which says "If they were very dextrous, the Aarakocra racial entry probably would have mentioned that." I also probably wouldn't let birds like Giant Owls grapple because again, they don't have hands, but it's not a strong opinion--I'd be willing to change my mind if the majority of the players at the table felt otherwise.

Edit: I do let Huge+ dragons grapple Medium creatures with their claws, because dragons. But I can imagine coming down in a similar place w/rt birds including Aarakocra's: they can only grapple things two sizes smaller than themselves. [thinks] Yeah, that's probably my ruling, in the absence of strong player feedback to the contrary. Note that I have size categories below Tiny, so a Small owl could grapple a Tiny II mouse but not a Tiny housecat.

[Man_Over_Game]

I would. Will the player have more fun matching your expectations or theirs?

[JackPhoenix]

I wouldn't recommend a centaur player to try that, assuming I would allow centaurs at my table in the first place. Unless he's fine snapping his own spine on the impact, that is.

[cutlery]

Two hands to wield and disadvantage to any creature within 5' makes sense to me. They don't have a saddle to brace against.

[Spectrulus]

As the other members of the community said, the provided examples don't exactly make sense.

They key advantage of using a lance while mounted is the mount's spine takes the (relatively minor) jostle, not yours. Given Centaur Anatomy, they don't have the advantage enough to benefit from it.

Aarakocra grappling, by RAW, sure, since they don't have a limit on weight for flying, just armor. Depending on your table, that may not fly

For other interesting anatomies, how would a Lizardfolk, Tabaxi, or Satyr wear shoes? Would magical shoes pop out their soles to suit their unusual feet? They do at my table.

What are the complications for Lizardfolk, Loxodon, or Tieflings to wear hats or armored helms? A large crest and huge ears respectively make it trickier, although Tieflings may just "drill holes," in them to fix up.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Centaur lancer- yes. Look up art of it, it looks workable. I'm not really concerned about the anatomy of the spine. Centaurs are a myth based on superior horsemen who were raised in the saddle taken to the next level. Bringing them forward technologically to the era of the quintessential Knight and denying them thenlance and shield style denies them their proper place.

Besides I've always pictured centaurs having really flexible spines that can bend backwards letting their humanoid backs meet their horse backs without discomfort. This allows safe lance use, makes them capable of grooming themselves and allows them to make eye contact while mating.

[Anonymouswizard]

Centaur lancer: maybe. I'm unlikely to allow centaurs, less so than intelligent dogs and cats*, but in a suitably cinematic game I'd allow it because it's a striking image.

Generally I recommend sticking to a humanoid or quadraped frame with four limbs to limit questions like this, but if I did the question would be 'would the anatomy get in the way of X'. Flying grapples are probably out when using wings, just because I set the grapplee as being able to interfere with your wing positioning and movement too much.

* I tend to like games where the lack of hands and limited carrying ability doesn't matter that much.

[TyGuy]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=83mg6gPBSKk

I'm just not understanding the comments about stabilizing a lance on the saddle or the horse's spine taking the force. I've never seen anything in jousting or videos like what I linked where the lance is resting on the horse equipment. And the jouster falls back when struck. If anything it's the rider's back that takes the force...

What am I missing?

[MaxWilson]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=83mg6gPBSKk

I'm just not understanding the comments about stabilizing a lance on the saddle or the horse's spine taking the force. I've never seen anything in jousting or videos like what I linked where the lance is resting on the horse equipment. And the jouster falls back when struck. If anything it's the rider's back that takes the force...

What am I missing?

Maybe nothing. Maybe I'm just wrong about needing the mount to support the lance. I'm no expert on medieval mounted combat. Let me ask you this instead: would you let an unmounted PC use a lance one-handed after watching that video? Why or why not? How is a centaur different from an unmounted PC?

[Lunali]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=83mg6gPBSKk

I'm just not understanding the comments about stabilizing a lance on the saddle or the horse's spine taking the force. I've never seen anything in jousting or videos like what I linked where the lance is resting on the horse equipment. And the jouster falls back when struck. If anything it's the rider's back that takes the force...

What am I missing?

Don't know about the saddle stabilization since I largely agree with you there. As for the spine, it's the rider's back that takes the force, but they can bend backwards or even fall off if they need to, that doesn't work for a centaur, their spine breaks instead.

[micahaphone]

Neither of those seem that game breaking to me.

The centaur is getting something no other player race gets, but I don't think they'll be riding a mount anytime soon. I'd call it part of the tradeoff to being on the large end of medium* just as a dwarf is on the small end of medium

I'd have to do some on-the-fly guesses of weight for the grappler Aarakokra, and would tell the player that they'd need a decent strength score for it. Finally, a more common reason to grapple a person grappling you!


* I know this is because large creatures take up more space on a grid system, but speaking as someone who doesn't play with a grid, it gets mildly annoying at times. I try to DM to include more race specific details beyond strict mechanical classification. No, just because they're medium doesn't mean a human can travel normally through a dwarf mineshaft. You'll be bent over just as if it were a halfling home.

[Tanarii]

Would you allow an aaracokra to grapple a creature with its feet and fly while holding weapons/items in its hands? Why/ why not?
Do 5e aarakocra even have feet capable of grasping? The MM art certainly doesn't look like it,

[MoiMagnus]

Elves have dark vision. That's a rule being "bend" because of the exotic anatomy of elves. (In other words, just put all the rules bending you want as racial features and nobody will complain as long as it is not OP).

As said by other, if you're trying to have a realistic approach of exotic anatomy, centaurs and lance are a bad idea, as the impact will destroy the centaur's spine. (Assuming you charge with it. If you attack moving as fast as a normal humanoid, no problems). Ranged attack would be much more adequate to centaurs than melee.

But on the other hand, plenty of weapons are already treated in non realistic ways (dex based archery for example), so one more or one less... Just go with what's look good and interesting.

[Mr Adventurer]

I wouldn't allow the centaur to wield a lance because the lance is essentially the equivalent of a two-handed weapon which you're bracing using your
Large horse and equipment. The centaur playable race is only Medium. I would consider it the same as allowing any other race to use any other two-handed or oversized weapon in one hand for some reason. I note that this is something the Powerful Build trait does not do, for example.

I would definitely allow a spear described as an appropriately-engineered lance.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Let me ask you this instead: would you let an unmounted PC use a lance one-handed after watching that video? Why or why not? How is a centaur different from an unmounted PC?

The issue with the Lance is it's meant for a charge at the speed of a charging horse and a lot of weight.

If I was going for a simulation I would make using a Lance on foot a lot worse than it is.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Centaur lancer- yes. Look up art of it, it looks workable. I'm not really concerned about the anatomy of the spine. Centaurs are a myth based on superior horsemen who were raised in the saddle taken to the next level. Bringing them forward technologically to the era of the quintessential Knight and denying them thenlance and shield style denies them their proper place.

I'm with Vecna on this. The whole point of playing a centaur is playing an always mounted combatant, so you get to use gear for mounted people.

In my head the ease of using a lance on horseback is more because of the relatively smooth ride anyway. Long jump, soft four footed transition into the next jump, in contrast with our series of short one legged hops. Plus the speed you need to make the weapon effective. And centaurs have a 40ft movement speed. The weight of a horse helps too, but that's mostly about weight distribution. A troll on a bicycle probably can't use a lance well because a relatively small shock is going to knock him off. But on a low riding tricycle it works just fine. A centaur has a wide stance and heavier lower than upper body.


I'd have a bit more reservations about letting the bird person do anything. Flight is a powerful ability. They should probably ask me after the wizard learns fly anyway, then I'll allow pretty much anything.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I will allow both because it seems more fun.

[Martin Greywolf]

For a centaur and a lance, no, because to the best of my knowledge the reason you can use it one-handed while mounted is because you're using your horse's body and/or tack to steady the lance, instead of using your hand. I'd allow it for a backwards centaur which was a headless horse at the front and a human torso growing out of the back, but those kinds of centaurs don't exist.

This is entirely wrong.



They key advantage of using a lance while mounted is the mount's spine takes the (relatively minor) jostle, not yours.

Again, wrong.



In my head the ease of using a lance on horseback is more because of the relatively smooth ride anyway. Long jump, soft four footed transition into the next jump, in contrast with our series of short one legged hops. Plus the speed you need to make the weapon effective. And centaurs have a 40ft movement speed. The weight of a horse helps too, but that's mostly about weight distribution. A troll on a bicycle probably can't use a lance well because a relatively small shock is going to knock him off. But on a low riding tricycle it works just fine. A centaur has a wide stance and heavier lower than upper body.


Again, no.

So, how DOES a lance work?

Well, since this is DnD specifically, we can immediately discard the idea that this is not a couched lance charge. Sure, historically you had all sorts of uses for lance, but rules are clearly about one handed couched lance charge.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/XIHcTKP8HY4iE-Eo3p9-zdZAqvbTXeIXj5HvwbruPAQtaXPXbrGZhFp4xQ6elCov8BcNoE QIx3j3NNymFi6y0F2-IpXx6FuIOHdfCMBVDndwFay9r3fKqthw1cjju8oBgVgu6YA1UE ooeL3olY0XI4UbeVVh

So, couched lances. WHat is the point of them and what do you need? Well, first of all, the answer is not stirrups or any sort of saddle. Hell, you can do couched lance charge riding bareback.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-dcbdf90237d2b5749e32b64ce1a449e6

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-30bd43baf5a1105ab722a98ef6b26487

Couched lance allows you to do two things: it brings the spear as close to your centre of mass as possible and it allows you to brace it and hold it at the end with relatively low effort. That makes it ideal for a somewhat lengthy charge where you use momentum of you and/or your horse as means of attack, rather than just thrust of your arm. This is not limited to cavalry, incidentally, couched polearm is occassionally seen in fighting on foot for the same reasons.

https://wiktenauer.com/images/thumb/3/32/MS_Ludwig_XV_13_35v-d.jpg/400px-MS_Ludwig_XV_13_35v-d.jpg

Couched doesn't mean one handed necessarily, but in our case, we are looking at one handed. So, why hold it in one hand? Well, if you are charging on a horse, you aren't going to stab out with it, so the only reason to hold it in two hands is to make it harder to set the point aside. This was occassionally done, but it seems the consensus at the time was that it was better to use the other hand for shield and reins. While a centaur doesn't need reins, shield sure is useful.

So, what did the usual equipment look like, and what was it for?

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ab/36/11/ab3611290b59ff31e7febfed21eabf79.jpg

Shield is there to make you not die.

Saddle is raised significantly, which makes you able to brace against it once you hit someone. This prevents you from unhorsing yourself with sheer force of your own attack. Incidentally, tournament saddles often didn't have these so that you had to be more skilled not to fall, although this trend ended fairly early on in tourney lifespan.

Stirrups are long and forward, which makes you able to brace into the saddle more effectively, even before the blow lands. More importantly, once you have to stop and use your sidearm, they allow you to sort of stand on them and fight more effectively, they have little to no effect on mitigating anything to do with lance impact.

Reins are nice to have, but we know that horses were often trained to be rideable without them. On the other hand, anyone who has ever ridden a horse trained for that will tell you that they help.

While all this equipment isn't necessary for couched charge, it makes it easier to do.

Finally, let's address the issue of stress on spine. Using a couched lance doesn't really exert any sort of significant stress on your spine - the lance would slide backwards long before that happened. It is true, however, that you have some records of horses getting their backs broken in tournaments - problem is, you have it backwards, it wasn't the stress of their own hit that did it, it was the stress of being hit with the opponent's lance.

The physics behind them revolve around moment of force, and essentially boil down to: your lance hits, then moves, and then your arm starts to move before any shock goes to the spine, that makes the time the force is exerted longer, and that's good for you. If you get hit in the torso, you get no such cushioning. This is further magnified by lances breaking, your own will break before force manages to get to your spine in full, the opponent's, not so much.

Centaurs, then?

Well, that's a bit iffy, as centaurs are anatomically very silly. But let's assume they work... somehow.

First of all, centaur would be slightly worse off when receiving shock of a couched lance impact, both as an attacker and as defender. He can't slide backwards the way rider does, so more stress goes into the twisted, eldritch horror that is centaur spine. As an attacker, this isn't all that bad, though, especially if aimed at infantry target, i.e. one not hitting him back when also galloping at him at full speed. It could be mitigated by centaur leaning his human torso forwards, but...

The other issue is balance - centaurs have their mass in a very forward location, and if you add a five-metre lance to it, they may tip over. Seeing as this would be very silly, and would prevent them from using any reach weapon which by RAW doesn't happen, we assume this is magically not the case at all.

So, from a historical perspective, if centaurs managed to exist in viable form with whimsy powering their biology - as it clearly does in DnD - they could use couched lance charges without issues.

[GooeyChewie]

For the centaur, it's best not to think about realistic consequences of having a right-angle turn in their spines in the first place. I rarely ever see centaurs or lances at my tables, so I think it'd be fun and unique to allow for a lance-wielding centaur.

For the aarakocra, I'd probably limit the flying bit. I wouldn't want every encounter to become "the aaracokra picks up the enemy, flies high into the air and drops them." I'd probably allow the bit about grappling with the feet, though. Aarakocra usually do not go for Strength builds, so I think it wouldn't get too out of hand.

[Sigreid]

For the centaur, yes. For the bird man, I'm not really sure what their feet are supposed to be like since they've made them more Flash Gordon hawkman than their original conception.

[JonBeowulf]

For Centaurs, yeah sure. My real problem with these things is that they're medium while MM Centaurs are large (monstrosities) and all MM horses are large. Are PC centaurs actually man-ponies? (Perhaps Man_Over_Game can provide us with a balanced large-sized PC race.)

For Aarakocra, yes, but I'd knock them down to quarter movement if grappling a same-sized creature (to balance the fact that their hands are free) and remind them that counter-grapple is still possible for same-sized or 1 size smaller enemies. Anything smaller than that is going along for the ride.

[Tanarii]

So, how DOES a lance work?

Well, since this is DnD specifically, we can immediately discard the idea that this is not a couched lance charge. Sure, historically you had all sorts of uses for lance, but rules are clearly about one handed couched lance charge.Wrong. :smalltongue:

But to be serious, in no way does attacking with a lance in 5e abstraction do a good job of representing a couched lance charge. You can not move or move in circle before making it. You can make several attacks in a row against the same target.

If you want rules clearly about a couched charge, take the Charger feat.

[Mikal]

Would you allow a centaur to use a lance one handed without being mounted? Kind of considering itself as a mounted combatant. Why/ why not?

Would you allow an aaracokra to grapple a creature with its feet and fly while holding weapons/items in its hands? Why/ why not?

Nope.
Because I see no reason as a DM to provide power boosts to either race, if I allowed them as PCs to begin with, which I would be disinclined to do anyway for most of my campaigns where they wouldn't fit.

I don't see a reason to make them stronger, they're viable on their own.

[Quietus]

Nope.
Because I see no reason as a DM to provide power boosts to either race, if I allowed them as PCs to begin with, which I would be disinclined to do anyway for most of my campaigns where they wouldn't fit.

I don't see a reason to make them stronger, they're viable on their own.

Technically speaking, there's nothing stopping aaracokra from doing this normally. Grapple a target, then move half your speed. You have a fly speed, so you can use that. Denying this is itself a house rule.

On centaur, the big thing to consider is that Lance is not subject to any of the power feats. No one is going to break the game with this.

[Mikal]

Technically speaking, there's nothing stopping aaracokra from doing this normally. Grapple a target, then move half your speed. You have a fly speed, so you can use that. Denying this is itself a house rule.

Except they can’t do it with their feet. Which with this rule they could do and then use a two handed weapon and potentially use gwm on the grappled person.

So yeah. It’s not a house rule. I never said they can’t grapple. I said they can’t with their feet. Don’t strawman.


On centaur, the big thing to consider is that Lance is not subject to any of the power feats. No one is going to break the game with this.

No the big thing to remember is that a centaur doesn’t count itself as a mount. And even if it doesn’t break the game the races are fine as is and don’t need a power boost.

[Quietus]

Except they can’t do it with their feet. Which with this rule they could do and then use a two handed weapon and potentially use gwm on the grappled person.

So yeah. It’s not a house rule. I never said they can’t grapple. I said they can’t with their feet. Don’t strawman.

No the big thing to remember is that a centaur doesn’t count itself as a mount. And even if it doesn’t break the game the races are fine as is and don’t need a power boost.

That's extremely argumentative. That first wasn't a strawman; I just went and checked, I had forgotten that the grapple rules specifically call out a free hand. Since nothing in their stat block says they can manipulate things with their feet, you're correct, RAW there's no foot-grapples. I'd still allow it because it's awesome and hilariously dangerous though.

Worth noting, grappling doesn't give you any special benefit for GWM. You may be thinking of the Restrained condition, which grappling does not inherently provide.

Centaurs don't actually get that much, and their stat boosts don't really play into a particular role terribly well. Having seen a centaur barbarian in combat with lance and shield, I can tell you that at no point have they felt overpowered. We're approaching level 8, and if I'm honest, they are falling behind in damage in many ways.

[Luccan]

I'd be comfortable allowing a centaur to 1 hand a lance. I wouldn't allow them to dual wield with it, though, feat or not. Nor would I allow that for a humanoid character on horse back. If you're looking to power game that way that's unfortunate, but unless that's the only reason you want to play a centaur it seems more fun to allow the centaur lancer concept