Building a bard in PF

[Mnemius]

So, friend is starting a campaign (think it's curse of the crimson throne).

I've been wanting to try playing a catfolk bard for a while.

Last time I played bard, I would take feats like arcane strike, point-blank shot, and precise shot.
Now I've learnt of feats like Lingering song and Masterpieces.

I'm currently looking at an Orphaned catfolk lady with a bit of happy energy.

Sticking to just pathfinder, no 3rd party or spheres of power, etc stuff.

I know I want Diplomacy as part of my versatile performance at level 2, but that still leaves what I want to pair with it (oratory, strings, or wind)

What feats/skills, and traits would people suggest? I'm not much for long term planning, so not looking for a level by level build.

[Particle_Man]

I had fun with using the cat folk bard trick of adding to the bardic knowledge (instead of the extra skill point or hit point). I became quite the sage. Invest in some or all knowledge skills and know everything.

[Draconi Redfir]

as just general advice, you'll probably want some method of extending your performance. fortunately in pathfinder there are a few ways to do this. the three i know of are the classic Extra Performance (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/extra-performance/), which just gives you more rounds of bardic performance per day. Lingering performance (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/lingering-performance/), which would allow you to spend one round of bardic performance to start a song, and then have two free rounds where you don't need to perform at all but still get the benefit. and Harmonic Spell (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/harmonic-spell/), which lets you avoid spending rounds of bardic performance so long as you cast a level 1 spell or higher.

with one or all of these, you should be able to have more performance time then usual, particularly helpful if you pick up an archetype or something that gives you an ability that costs bardic performance as a resource.

beyond that, i'm not sure what advice to give really, character builds can vary wildly just on basic premise alone, and what I've built may not help you at all even if they are somewhat similar.

[Kurald Galain]

I'd suggest Combat Reflexes + Bodyguard.

If you want to make your party very happy (as in, buff them through the roof), I suggest switching to Evangelist Cleric; then take an alternative channeling ability that further buffs the party.

Also, it strikes me that a bard has sufficient performance rounds per day that he doesn't need to spend feats on that (unless you go for abilities to "spend X extra rounds of perf for Y effect").

[Gnaeus]

I'd suggest Combat Reflexes + Bodyguard.

If you want to make your party very happy (as in, buff them through the roof), I suggest switching to Evangelist Cleric; then take an alternative channeling ability that further buffs the party.

Also, it strikes me that a bard has sufficient performance rounds per day that he doesn't need to spend feats on that (unless you go for abilities to "spend X extra rounds of perf for Y effect").

I think they eventually do. (Disclaimer, my experience is with skald not bard, but similar issue). So let’s assume bard 5, 18cha. That’s 4+4(Cha)+8(level) or 16 rounds of performance per day. So that’s just enough for 4 short fights. With nothing left over for inspire competence and the like. We don’t get to inspire as a move until 7, so you may also waste a few rounds in prebuffing.

I found that with 20 Cha (22 at level 4) and extra performance (which skalds get free in PFS in exchange for their crafting feat) I only ran out of rounds once or twice in a career of liberal use. That means performing basically every round of every combat, plus occasional use when we needed to climb or swim or make some other check I could affect. Without those extra rounds, I would have needed to ration rounds quite a bit more, and I would have run short on long days.

I’d probably recommend an extra rounds feat in low level play with expectation of retraining it somewhere in the 8-10 range. Assuming that you don’t get something else to spend music on, and that you are planning to use it most or all fights. And let’s face it, if you are playing a bard you probably either want to do that for thematic (I’m a bard it’s what I do) or tactical (I’m in a group with a bunch of people who make attack rolls and I’m a force multiplier) reasons.

[Psyren]

Bard is a very broad class that can support many concepts. You can be party buffer, skillmonkey, controller,/debuffer, frontline tank, melee or ranged striker, or ranged blaster among a few others. Did you have a particular concept/desired role in mind for this character?

[Kurald Galain]

16 rounds of performance per day. So that’s just enough for 4 short fights.

Four rounds is really not a short fight; in my experience you rarely have more than 10-12 rounds of combat per day, in printed modules such as what the OP mentioned.

[Efrate]

Bards are amazing in curse of the crimson throne, there is a LOT of social interaction and having a dedicated face is huge. As a cat folk however if sticking to module it might be difficult, varisian humans are the expected norm. Diplomacy, bluff and sense motive and versatile performance to keep them up I would recommend, along with as much knowledge and low level mobility as you can from skills.

[gijoemike]

Tell us more about the character and how you envision combat with her.


It has been suggested you pump cha through the roof but I my experience it isn't needed unless you go for battlefield controller via spells and uses as much bardic performance as possible. I have pulled off bards starting with just 14 cha and using buff spells/no saves. Instead they used archery in combat and I played them like a ranger. Think of Errol Flynn's Robin Hood, witty, charismatic, archery, and play the lute around the campfire.


So are you a buffer on the back line, a flanking partner for the fighter/rogue, archer, or more of a slinger of spells?

[Draconi Redfir]

As a cat folk however if sticking to module it might be difficult, varisian humans are the expected norm. Diplomacy, bluff and sense motive and versatile performance to keep them up I would recommend, along with as much knowledge and low level mobility as you can from skills.

i'm currently playing a Drow Bard in Crimson throne, alongside two catfolk, a Sylph, two ratfolk, an Aasimar, an Ifrit, and one elf (Big party, i know>_>) it really isn't that big of an issue.

if OP is worried though, you can always try to set yourself up as some long-term member of Korvosa. My Drow has been a homeless orphan performing on the streets for money for at least 100 years. The Catfolks are noble Ambassadors from the country of Catiana (Have you heard the good word of Ceiling Cat?), and the Ratfolk are native to the Korvosian sewer system. As a general rule, if you've been there a long time, people tend to be more accepting of you.

[Gnaeus]

Four rounds is really not a short fight; in my experience you rarely have more than 10-12 rounds of combat per day, in printed modules such as what the OP mentioned.

Our experiences differ. I regarded my character’s PFS status as about best case for that, given that most adventures only had a few encounters and the RL time restraints pretty much capped combat rounds. Printed adventures, on the other hand, start having dungeons pretty early. The AP I’m looking a has PCs entering a goblin fortress at level 3-4ish, with 20something potential encounters, with intelligent foes who could call in adjoining rooms, or pursue parties seeking a 15 minute adventuring day, or just clear out if it looked like the party was winning, taking their exp, loot etc with them. I see 13 fights before you go down the stairs into the dungeon. And about 12 more in it. + random encounters. How many 12 round days is that, and how screwed will your adventure be if that’s your standard?

(That’s a different AP of course, but I don’t think I’m spoiling much when I say “the Haunting of Harrowstone” involves a big haunted area called harrowstone with a bunch of stuff in it.)

[Mnemius]

Gnaeus, think I ran that goblin one before, big thorn maze before hand?

As a bard, I'm thinking party face, skill monkey as first two targets, then combat role of some buffing and then standing back and shooting or supporting.
My link into the campaign is Love Lost Orphan, my mom died in Korvosa, been an orphan ever since. Sticking the +2 perform onto whatever diplomacy versatile perform I settle on.

Oh, and GM is letting us take a drawback for an extra trait. Not sure if I want to do that, but the drawback that says no shadow sounds fun on a bard. "Hey, have you seen my shadow? It's missing. Maybe I'm just that big of a star!"

Other reason I'm wanting catfolk is for inherent climb speed via alternate racial.

I sorta like the feats Catfolk Exemplar to Aspect of the Beast to get Darkvision (30ft) and Scent.

And the alternate favored bonus of +0.5 to bardic knowledge.

[Ramza00]

Bard Handbooks. I particularly like the last two which have to deal with bardic items and some feats and the handbook on bardic masterpieces.

All the World’s a Stage, and You the Stage Director: A Guide to the Pathfinder Bard (Core, ACG, APG, ARG, UC, UM) [Discussion] (2015)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ogz8HL6GeguT-tN3-6HxXiF_G7mg_tyAQ59V9kPg6g4/edit?pli=1
Treantmonk's Guide to Bards: Pathfinder Core Rules (Core only) [Discussion] (2012)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vYT7lEwimdjo0T8NoJ8C2-wMueWMk68gZL_9pTIU4aE/edit
kcmorris's Dervish Dance Bard (Blog, short) (2016)
https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/A-Guide-to-the-Dervish-Pathfinder
Guide to the Buffer Bard [Discussion] (2014)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1b1hq_xhfCFjtAyjJMKrdtxRbtDEC1kNm6ZYfvS6HqIw/edit
Forger's List of Amazing Bard Options (2017)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wyoTi_1Xl9QNwxQ35j9ZiCRLlCTkwJ_ZNkK9vurB-pE/edit
Bardic Masterpiece Handbook
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zHrIR2Mh5se2h6LLUTqmkRM0agvzY_cAYpKCAW0LTik/edit#

[Arkhios]

I've yet to actually play a bard in PF, but I've done several 1-to-20 builds, and one thing that always bugs me about PF Bard's Versatile Performance: There's too much overlap between different options. The feature should've been designed more carefully, as it does kinda defeat it's own purpose if you're supposed to learn more than one of them in time, and quite early on you just don't get any new benefits from them because you've already covered same versatile skill substitutes earlier.

This is why, whenever I built a bard, I always sought out an archetype that would replace Versatile Performance or modified it somehow. Versatile Performance as-is sucks balls.
Luckily the first player companion book (Advanced Player's Guide) includes 6 different bard archetypes that do exactly this.

[Draconi Redfir]

you can get a masterpiece instead of a new versatile performance skill if you want. i got Clamor of the heavens that way, really saved our butts when we went up against a whole lot of organized undead.

key to versatile performance might be to have a bit of variety in available performances. my bard has not only Sing, but also String, Wind, Percussion, and key. So i got a good selection of skills to choose from.

idk if you're supposed too or not, but the way I've been working it is that when a skill becomes a versatile-performance skill, you can re-allocate the now useless ranks you've put into it for something else. for example if i have 4 ranks in handle animal but versatile performance made it the same as my +10 string performance, i'd get to take those four ranks and put them elsewhere, even into String.

[Kurald Galain]

you can get a masterpiece instead of a new versatile performance skill if you want.

I've been unable to find that rule, can you tell us where it's from? As far as I can see, masterpieces require spending a feat or a spells-known slot.

[Ramza00]

I've been unable to find that rule, can you tell us where it's from? As far as I can see, masterpieces require spending a feat or a spells-known slot.

It is in the srd due to backporting but this new rule was introduced in Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of the Beast (2016) page 12 and 13.

Only applies to versatile performances at and after bard / skald level 6.

[Draconi Redfir]

(link) (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/BARD/#TOC-Versatile-Performance-Ex-) Source PPC:BotB

Beginning at 6th level, instead of selecting an additional skill with versatile performance, a bard or skald can choose an advanced versatile performance for one Perform skill he previously selected with versatile performance. Some advanced versatile performance options can be selected only if the bard or skald meets the option’s prerequisites.

A bard or skald with an archetype that replaces versatile performance cannot select advanced versatile performance options.

Expanded Versatility (Ex): The bard chooses one Perform skill that he has already selected with versatile performance. He adds one of the following skills to the list of skills that are associated with the chosen Perform skill for the purpose of the versatile performance ability: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Sense Motive, or Use Magic Device. This option can be selected multiple times, but no skill can be associated with the same Perform skill more than once.

Martial Performance (Ex): The bard chooses one weapon belonging to a fighter weapon group that is associated with a Perform skill he has selected with versatile performance (see below). He gains proficiency with this weapon. If the bard is already proficient with this weapon or later becomes proficient with it, he gains Weapon Focus with that weapon as a bonus feat instead. In addition, the bard’s effective fighter level is equal to 1/2 his bard level for the purpose of qualifying for feats that specifically select weapons from those Perform skills’ associated fighter weapon groups. The types of Perform skills and their associated fighter weapon groups are: Act (close, double), Comedy (flails, thrown), Dance (monk, spears), Keyboard Instruments (hammers, siege engines), Oratory (heavy blades, light blades), Percussion (close, hammers), Sing (close, natural), String (axes, bows), and Wind (monk, thrown).

Masterpiece: The bard gains a bardic masterpiece, as if he were giving up a feat to learn it. He must meet the masterpiece’s prerequisites, and the masterpiece must list ranks in a Perform skill that the bard has chosen with versatile performance as a prerequisite. This option can be selected multiple times.

so looks like you could do a couple of other things as well. you can add additional skills, or learn how to wield a certain kind of weapon better.

shame light blades are Oratory though. my bard has a shortsword she's been holding just for the magical buffs it gives her. might have to take that Sing - natural weapon bonus sometime though :P

[Kurald Galain]

Thanks, good to know!

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Be sure to sing at least one song from Cats at some point