Death Battle 6: Measured in TNT

[Traab]

Figured I would start up a new one since this seemed to get the most agreement. Just to carry on the discussion I will repeat, as this wouldnt be the first live action fight they did (nightwing versus daredevil) im cautiously optimistic that it wont suck.

[Forum Explorer]

Figured I would start up a new one since this seemed to get the most agreement. Just to carry on the discussion I will repeat, as this wouldnt be the first live action fight they did (nightwing versus daredevil) im cautiously optimistic that it wont suck.

I'll ditto this. Nightwing versus Daredevil wasn't bad at all, so it seems a little preemptive to assume that it'll suck because it's live action.

[Rynjin]

We may have different metrics on what constitutes a good live action fight. Most people don't watch US professional wrestling for the thrilling and visceral fight choreography, and the last live action fight was at roughly that level.

I'll put out the CW Arrowverse shows (Arrow particularly) as the "bronze standard" for a live action comic book fight. That's the minimum level of quality for what I'd consider solid. An unfair metric for an internet show? Maybe. But if you're going to do something, I think you should do it well, and DB is big enough it can't be properly considered an entirely amateur production anymore.

[Rater202]

Honestly, at this point as long as they don'tmake any mistake involving characters I care about, I'll be fine.

[SKarious]

So, any other characters you would suggest to fight against Zuko?

[Traab]

So, any other characters you would suggest to fight against Zuko?

Maybe Pyro from xmen? I have no clue how far he has gone up the power scale, but his whole deal is manipulating fire, though he cant create it. I could see it turning into a game of literal hot potato as they juggle control of the initial fireballs back and forth between them in a contest of both fine control and mass control of flames. Pyro has an edge in that he doesnt need to make specific movements to control his flames, iirc its all mental effort, but the fact that zuko spent large portions of his life learning not just how to bend fire, but working with other fire benders, has given him a lot of experience in taking control of flames from other people.

[Dragonus45]

Maybe Pyro from xmen? I have no clue how far he has gone up the power scale, but his whole deal is manipulating fire, though he cant create it. I could see it turning into a game of literal hot potato as they juggle control of the initial fireballs back and forth between them in a contest of both fine control and mass control of flames. Pyro has an edge in that he doesnt need to make specific movements to control his flames, iirc its all mental effort, but the fact that zuko spent large portions of his life learning not just how to bend fire, but working with other fire benders, has given him a lot of experience in taking control of flames from other people.

Also Zuko is probably just better in a fight then Pyro and if need be can just decide to use his big swords and martial art skills instead of throwing fire at him.

[Devonix]

Also Zuko is probably just better in a fight then Pyro and if need be can just decide to use his big swords and martial art skills instead of throwing fire at him.

One thing a lot of people forget is that fire bending isn't just about making fire. It also teaches you how to remove and reduce fire.

He could put put Pyro's flames and fight him hand to hand

[Forum Explorer]

One thing a lot of people forget is that fire bending isn't just about making fire. It also teaches you how to remove and reduce fire.

He could put put Pyro's flames and fight him hand to hand

Pyro usually comes with a way to create flames through, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't just create flames but amplify them.

[Traab]

Pyro usually comes with a way to create flames through, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't just create flames but amplify them.

He does. He is basically a flamethrower in that he uses something to manually provide the spark then magnifies it, forming whatever shapes he wants and such. Remember the xmen movie? The young pyro used a lighter to trigger his abilities. Thats basically how it works as far as I understand.

[Forum Explorer]

He does. He is basically a flamethrower in that he uses something to manually provide the spark then magnifies it, forming whatever shapes he wants and such. Remember the xmen movie? The young pyro used a lighter to trigger his abilities. Thats basically how it works as far as I understand.

Also so long as Pyro is manipulating the flames, he's immune to them. So that's a pretty hefty advantage he's got over Zuko.

[McNum]

So, any other characters you would suggest to fight against Zuko?
Axel from Kingdom Hearts.

- He's fire based.
- He's a villain who's a late joiner to Team Sora.
- Joining Team Sora, he learned new powers and how to master his own
- He dualwields melee weapons

That should be enough boxes ticked to get him in vs. Zuko.

As for who would win... That one is tough. Axel's fire will likely be mostly countered, but that's not his only trick. If it comes down to melee weapons, Axel (or Lea now) has a Keyblade, so I'd give a slight advantage there. Not the best Keyblade, but one none the less. And I don't see Zuko having a way to keep Axel out of melee. He's quick in a fight.

I think it's one of those matchups where if you ran it 1000 times, you'd get 400 wins for the loser.

[Dragonus45]

Also so long as Pyro is manipulating the flames, he's immune to them. So that's a pretty hefty advantage he's got over Zuko.

But is he immune to expert martial arts and swords to the chest?

[Darth Credence]

The best match-up for Zuko would have to be Nogerelli (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grease_2). (Yes, I'm old and watched weird things growing up.)

[Traab]

But is he immune to expert martial arts and swords to the chest?

No, but thats the rub. Can zuko manage to keep pyros fire away from him long enough to stab? I think it will be very difficult as pyro probably has better control over fire than zuko considering he is known for making things like animal constructs out of fire as his standard party tricks, and zuko is very much so not immune to fire. Its not impossible for zuko to create brief windows of opportunity before pyro can re-establish control, but I think it would be an uphill battle for him to get the timing right.

[Anteros]

Axel from Kingdom Hearts.

- He's fire based.
- He's a villain who's a late joiner to Team Sora.
- Joining Team Sora, he learned new powers and how to master his own
- He dualwields melee weapons

That should be enough boxes ticked to get him in vs. Zuko.

As for who would win... That one is tough. Axel's fire will likely be mostly countered, but that's not his only trick. If it comes down to melee weapons, Axel (or Lea now) has a Keyblade, so I'd give a slight advantage there. Not the best Keyblade, but one none the less. And I don't see Zuko having a way to keep Axel out of melee. He's quick in a fight.

I think it's one of those matchups where if you ran it 1000 times, you'd get 400 wins for the loser.

Axel goes up against Sora, who does things like blocking beams of light or cutting skyscrapers in half. With DB's love of transitive property it's not even a close fight.

[Kitten Champion]

No, but thats the rub. Can zuko manage to keep pyros fire away from him long enough to stab? I think it will be very difficult as pyro probably has better control over fire than zuko considering he is known for making things like animal constructs out of fire as his standard party tricks, and zuko is very much so not immune to fire. Its not impossible for zuko to create brief windows of opportunity before pyro can re-establish control, but I think it would be an uphill battle for him to get the timing right.

Honestly, the "Zuko can beat him with swords" depends on Zuko having foreknowledge of Pyro's mutant power and actively not trying to engage him with his fire-bending abilities, which seems pretty unreasonable.

More importantly, it's bringing back the game of arbitrarily deciding which superpower takes precedence over the other like with the Gaara v. Toph fight.

For another Zuko opponent, how about Blaziken? Ya'know, the Gen 3 Pokemon. Had a number of appearances in the anime and movies to go off of rather than just extrapolating from the games, doesn't have ludicrous Pokedex entries like Machamp, and fulfills the "mixes martial arts and fire powers" aspect of the match-up.

[Forum Explorer]

Honestly, the "Zuko can beat him with swords" depends on Zuko having foreknowledge of Pyro's mutant power and actively not trying to engage him with his fire-bending abilities, which seems pretty unreasonable.

More importantly, it's bringing back the game of arbitrarily deciding which superpower takes precedence over the other like with the Gaara v. Toph fight.

For another Zuko opponent, how about Blaziken? Ya'know, the Gen 3 Pokemon. Had a number of appearances in the anime and movies to go off of rather than just extrapolating from the games, doesn't have ludicrous Pokedex entries like Machamp, and fulfills the "mixes martial arts and fire powers" aspect of the match-up.

Blaziken wins hands down. Its physical feats outshine Zuko by far, it's close to immune to fire while Zuko is not, and the abuse Pokemon can take is far beyond any of the characters in Avatar are capable of handling.

[TeChameleon]

... yeah, Todoroki vs. Zuko went pretty much how I expected.

Not even Zuko's honour could help him deal with 'suddenly glacier'.

I don't think Pyro would be a great matchup against Zuko; Zuko's just too fast and agile, and Pyro is... kinda on the lazy, cowardly end of things in his usual portrayals. If St. John Allerdyce (seriously, that's his name) got a lucky shot in on the prince, he might take it, but if the fight goes on even a short while, Zuko would realize fire immunity, get in close, and it's stabby time.

[McNum]

Axel goes up against Sora, who does things like blocking beams of light or cutting skyscrapers in half. With DB's love of transitive property it's not even a close fight.
Right, though Axel is on the lower end of the Kingdom Hearts power scale all things considered. But still, Zuko would at best be able to hang with the Final Fantasy characters in that.

I wonder if we limited it to just his Lea incarnation if that would be fair. A lot of Axel's crazy stuff comes from being an elite Nobody as part of Organization XIII. Lea's been shown to be fairly sneaky, but also about Kairi level since he just swapped his rings for a Keyblade, and doesn't really know how to use it.

But then again, Kairi-level is better than you'd think. She just has a bad habit of skipping straight to the endboss while still in training. With the expected results.

We really need Kairi to get a game to be awesome in.

[Dragonus45]

Honestly, the "Zuko can beat him with swords" depends on Zuko having foreknowledge of Pyro's mutant power and actively not trying to engage him with his fire-bending abilities, which seems pretty unreasonable.

More importantly, it's bringing back the game of arbitrarily deciding which superpower takes precedence over the other like with the Gaara v. Toph fight.


No, it depends on the fire attacks for both of them largely being a wash and Zuko being both better at hand to hand combat and more psychically fit combatant. With very pointy objects.

[Kitten Champion]

No, it depends on the fire attacks for both of them largely being a wash and Zuko being both better at hand to hand combat and more psychically fit combatant. With very pointy objects.

Why is it a wash? That's an arbitrary decision to decide complete equivalency even if the powers scale differently, and is no different than deciding one is stronger than the other just because.

[Dragonus45]

Why is it a wash? That's an arbitrary decision to decide complete equivalency even if the powers scale differently, and is no different than deciding one is stronger than the other just because.

Pyro has better fine control since can make constructs but beyond that I see nothing in either characters history that says the would be able to overpower one another with firepower alone. If you want to say one or the other wins that fight then by all means, prove it.

[Forum Explorer]

Pyro has better fine control since can make constructs but beyond that I see nothing in either characters history that says the would be able to overpower one another with firepower alone. If you want to say one or the other wins that fight then by all means, prove it.

Pyro's fire constructs can also pick up objects without burning them, so he has much much better fire control.

Also I'm pretty sure his fires can burn hot enough to reduce a human to ash in seconds. Obviously, Zuko has never done something along those lines. I'm pretty sure Pyro leveled a small town once, but I think he was being amped up by something at the time.

[Dragonus45]

Pyro's fire constructs can also pick up objects without burning them, so he has much much better fire control.
I'm gonna need a citation for this one, I'm not the most avid reader of Xmen stuff anymore but I don't remember him ever doing that. Although it's just asinine to work in comic book writer logic so I wouldn't be surprised. Either way, that just reinforces his psychic control of fire is able to do finer work which is what I already said. He also suffers from serious concentration issues dealing with his fire, with a whole bunch of limits involving needing to see it and having to put a lot of effort into making anything real big or intense which means not focusing on other nearby fire, which is why I don't think he has much more raw strength than Zuko and that their fire talent's would largely cancel each other out.



Also I'm pretty sure his fires can burn hot enough to reduce a human to ash in seconds. Obviously, Zuko has never done something along those lines.
Only because of G ratings, look at some of the stuff various firebenders have melted or the size of some of those fire blasts and tell me that Zuko couldn't end a life real fast in a series that allowed such things.

[HolyDraconus]

Flash blurb up.. From what they shown before, when they show in the blurb something completely busted, like in this instance, regeneration from mist, usually means its going to be over the top. They also showed the still for the Sonic blurb and they have Sonic as Super Sonic. Which I figured. I know Sonic has decimated realities, but outside of rewinding Time, has Flash done similar?

They pulled two particular facts from the comics that might change how this goes. The fact that Sonic can move even while Time Stop(megaman crossover) and most of the busted things he done was in base: not Super, or Hyper.

[Traab]

So sonic blurb is up. Yep, this is the one speedster that can match or possibly exceed the flash and HIS stupid level of power. His speed is literally ????? Doesnt mean death battle wont try to break down some of his feats anyways.

[McNum]

Yup. This is going to be a fun one.

Also yes. Those were Mega Man and the Robot Masters you saw. Because sometimes Worlds Collide. And it's in continuity, too for Sonic.

I'm leaning Sonic now. If only because his infinite and immeasurable speed there was in his base form. Super Sonic's breakdown is going to be hilarious.

[HolyDraconus]

Fairly certain they gonna give Super Sonic the same weaknesses that he had in the games... well, WEAKNESS, which is being crushed. The rings was a temporary thing and was proven to simply be a game balancing mechanic since in Sonic Advance, the true ending had Sonic maintain Super form for a week.

[Devonix]

Fairly certain they gonna give Super Sonic the same weaknesses that he had in the games... well, WEAKNESS, which is being crushed. The rings was a temporary thing and was proven to simply be a game balancing mechanic since in Sonic Advance, the true ending had Sonic maintain Super form for a week.

They're explicitly using Archie Sonic. Which means they're not using anything videogame related. And comic Sonic has survived universal erasion in his Super form.

[HolyDraconus]

They're explicitly using Archie Sonic. Which means they're not using anything videogame related. And comic Sonic has survived universal erasion in his Super form.

I know they are using Archie Sonic. But this is death battle. That sort of thing is precisely the muck they would use. Nevermind the fact that Sonic doesn't need rings to change and literally fought Deities," he can be crushed in the games and since Archie Sonic is Prime Sonic then he can too". Im sure is the logic they can use. And he survived multiversal erasion. The Super Genesis Wave hit everything.

[Devonix]

I know they are using Archie Sonic. But this is death battle. That sort of thing is precisely the muck they would use. Nevermind the fact that Sonic doesn't need rings to change and literally fought Deities," he can be crushed in the games and since Archie Sonic is Prime Sonic then he can too". Im sure is the logic they can use. And he survived multiversal erasion. The Super Genesis Wave hit everything.

When they say they're only using things from a specific version they pretty much always stick to it. BTW they're probably going to be showing clips from games, or from the Satam Show. But remember those are just clips for giving something to show in the episode, and have nothing to do with the analysis.

Same for showing stuff from cartoons when they're talking about a comic book character. The cartoon clips have nothing to do with the analysis.

[HolyDraconus]

When they say they're only using things from a specific version they pretty much always stick to it. BTW they're probably going to be showing clips from games, or from the Satam Show. But remember those are just clips for giving something to show in the episode, and have nothing to do with the analysis.

Same for showing stuff from cartoons when they're talking about a comic book character. The cartoon clips have nothing to do with the analysis.

i wont hold my breath.

[HolyDraconus]

Happy Holidays already? Well lets get this started.
Sonic lost. He was Ben Ten'd. When you can literally bend reality to your whims, how do you lose? By not being a DC character, seems to be the recurring answer. Speed not even being relevant is the only thing i can concede to them here. Otherwise, ouch. The flames in the comment section will being brutal. Next time was spoiled months ago, but in the interest of those that missed it Red Hood v Winter Soldier

[Traab]

Ok watched it Meh, it was a battle of the infinity +1 characters. You could probably have gone the other way and used the exact same justification.

[SKarious]

Welp. That wa sa pile of brain-melting bu****it. I don't think anything matters with such broken characters, and comics are more ridiculous now to me than ever before.
At least the next battle could prove interesting. It'll be in live-action, right?

[hungrycrow]

I like that they were suspicious of sonic's ludicrously high toughness feat.

[HolyDraconus]

I like that they were suspicious of sonic's ludicrously high toughness feat.

He was blessed by, and consistently fights, reality warping deities. Why so suspicious?

[Traab]

He was blessed by, and consistently fights, reality warping deities. Why so suspicious?

Hes a hedgehog, duh. :smallbiggrin:

[hungrycrow]

He was blessed by, and consistently fights, reality warping deities. Why so suspicious?

He also regularly gets hurt by normal dudes. It didn't matter much this fight since sonic has his super modes and flash can do crazy speed force things. But i feel like always using the maximum stat a character ever displays ends up skewing the characters so much they look nothing like their normal depictions.

[Traab]

He also regularly gets hurt by normal dudes. It didn't matter much this fight since sonic has his super modes and flash can do crazy speed force things. But i feel like always using the maximum stat a character ever displays ends up skewing the characters so much they look nothing like their normal depictions.

I agree with you to an extent but that opens the door to problems deciding "What is normal"? The strongest feats at least tends to give an objective rating that most can agree on "Yeah that character did that once" Of course the argument then is what that feat MEANS number wise.

[Forum Explorer]

Flash wins.

Okay. I don't really care. Can we just stop using overpowered DC characters please? I'm tired of the absolute constant BS that goes on in the DC Universe.

[Kitten Champion]

He also regularly gets hurt by normal dudes. It didn't matter much this fight since sonic has his super modes and flash can do crazy speed force things. But i feel like always using the maximum stat a character ever displays ends up skewing the characters so much they look nothing like their normal depictions.


This was my big-honkin'-issue with the Optimus Prime v. Granddaddy Gundam fight, which was the last one of these I watched. It was watching two - dubiously devised - statistical blocks that they put Optimus Prime and RX-78-2 skins on. That, as a result, neither matched your in-built expectations of either Gen-1 Transformers or Mobile Suit Gundam action scenes and felt more like a Newgrounds Flash animator's pet project that happened to use those characters' sprites.

It's not even about who wins or loses - I'm willing to accept their justification for that - but rather the basic concept of wanting to see characters you like fight and interact in a way that would never happen within canon and/or with the IP holders being unrelated entities.

[Anteros]

This was my big-honkin'-issue with the Optimus Prime v. Granddaddy Gundam fight, which was the last one of these I watched. It was watching two - dubiously devised - statistical blocks that they put Optimus Prime and RX-78-2 skins on. That, as a result, neither matched you're in-built expectations of either Gen-1 Transformers or Mobile Suit Gundam action scenes and felt more like a Newgrounds Flash animator's pet project that happened to use those characters' sprites.

It's not even about who wins or loses - I'm willing to accept their justification for that - but rather the basic concept of wanting to see characters you like fight and interact in a way that would never happen within canon and/or with the IP holders being unrelated entities.

Yeah, I'm a big believer that characters should be depicted in their most usual way, and if that misses out on some extreme feats that they can't normally accomplish so be it.

[Rynjin]

I think for long running series/characters most things could be fixed by choosing an "era".

If the Flash, as an example, was nailed down to a consistent depiction that could actually change if they ever came back, it would make things more interesting I think.

Who wins in a fight: Archie Sonic or the Flash as depicted in the canon of '92-'00? Then it becomes a lot easier to pull consistent feats instead of maximum cheese achievements pulled from a hodgepodge of stories written by over a dozen different writers spanning 80 years.

[Forum Explorer]

This was my big-honkin'-issue with the Optimus Prime v. Granddaddy Gundam fight, which was the last one of these I watched. It was watching two - dubiously devised - statistical blocks that they put Optimus Prime and RX-78-2 skins on. That, as a result, neither matched your in-built expectations of either Gen-1 Transformers or Mobile Suit Gundam action scenes and felt more like a Newgrounds Flash animator's pet project that happened to use those characters' sprites.

It's not even about who wins or loses - I'm willing to accept their justification for that - but rather the basic concept of wanting to see characters you like fight and interact in a way that would never happen within canon and/or with the IP holders being unrelated entities.

Speaking of that, I've got that problem with some other fights, like Obi-Wan vs Kakashi. Just because you turn off any pacifism they might have doesn't mean you should also switch up their fighting style, or how they use their abilities.

[TeChameleon]

I agree with you to an extent but that opens the door to problems deciding "What is normal"? The strongest feats at least tends to give an objective rating that most can agree on "Yeah that character did that once" Of course the argument then is what that feat MEANS number wise.

I'd tend to agree with that- going all-peak-feats can produce some wonky results, but at the same time, where do you put the peak feats if you don't use them as the baseline? Just because a character doesn't do it all the time, doesn't mean they can't do it, because they've done it in the past. So, well...

As far as Sonic vs. the Flash...

It was a bit weird that they applied the transitive 'Barry came back from dissociated molecules' thing to Wally when I always thought that was a thing that was sort of Barry's gig, one of the only things that he clearly had over Wally. Oddly enough, it was actually referred to surprisingly often in the early days of Wally's run as the Flash, that 'Barry had total control over his molecules' and heavily implied that it was something that Wally couldn't do. But at the same time... it turned out to be totally irrelevant. They pointed out that Wally's phased through reality-warping energy blasts before, rendering that whole line of argument completely moot.

Other than that, yeh, no real surprises there, to be honest. Wally West Flash is absurdly broken. What amounts to total mastery over kinetic force, relatively casual dimension-hopping, limited precognition, and time travel? Almost any one of those things could make you a borderline god, and all of them? Yeah, not even Sonic the 'I have more super modes than I have fingers' Hedgehog is going to be able to handle that.

... frankly could've saved some time by just saying 'Speed Force more OP than Chaos Force'

EDIT

Speaking of that, I've got that problem with some other fights, like Obi-Wan vs Kakashi. Just because you turn off any pacifism they might have doesn't mean you should also switch up their fighting style, or how they use their abilities.

Thing is, what happens when that pacifism heavily informs their fighting style/ability use? I mean, if, say, Jaime Reyes Blue Beetle has his no-kill rule turned off, things are going to be very, very different when he goes up against you, given that the Scarab appears to pack weaponry with 'possible theological implications' that Jaime simply refuses to use. Fights are gonna go a little differently when the Blue Beetle uses his 'render three square blocks into their constituent gluons ray' rather than just trying to deck his opponent.

[HolyDraconus]

I'd tend to agree with that- going all-peak-feats can produce some wonky results, but at the same time, where do you put the peak feats if you don't use them as the baseline? Just because a character doesn't do it all the time, doesn't mean they can't do it, because they've done it in the past. So, well...

As far as Sonic vs. the Flash...

It was a bit weird that they applied the transitive 'Barry came back from dissociated molecules' thing to Wally when I always thought that was a thing that was sort of Barry's gig, one of the only things that he clearly had over Wally. Oddly enough, it was actually referred to surprisingly often in the early days of Wally's run as the Flash, that 'Barry had total control over his molecules' and heavily implied that it was something that Wally couldn't do. But at the same time... it turned out to be totally irrelevant. They pointed out that Wally's phased through reality-warping energy blasts before, rendering that whole line of argument completely moot.

Other than that, yeh, no real surprises there, to be honest. Wally West Flash is absurdly broken. What amounts to total mastery over kinetic force, relatively casual dimension-hopping, limited precognition, and time travel? Almost any one of those things could make you a borderline god, and all of them? Yeah, not even Sonic the 'I have more super modes than I have fingers' Hedgehog is going to be able to handle that.

... frankly could've saved some time by just saying 'Speed Force more OP than Chaos Force'

EDIT


Thing is, what happens when that pacifism heavily informs their fighting style/ability use? I mean, if, say, Jaime Reyes Blue Beetle has his no-kill rule turned off, things are going to be very, very different when he goes up against you, given that the Scarab appears to pack weaponry with 'possible theological implications' that Jaime simply refuses to use. Fights are gonna go a little differently when the Blue Beetle uses his 'render three square blocks into their constituent gluons ray' rather than just trying to deck his opponent.

The issue though is Sonic had two MAJOR things going for him. He can change matter to whatever he wishes, which should of been a game ender, cause regardless of how much control you have over your molecules it won't matter when they stop being molecules, and reality literally bends to make him win. They glossed over both and never gave a plausible reason as to what Wally had to overcome it. Chaos Control is a blast. His wish powers aren't. They are just a stated effect of reality. But as i stated earlier, they Ben Ten'd Sonic, by once again, in the animation, time travel to before the conflict became unwinnable and win. The difference is that at least here they had a plausible argument for the non DC character to lose (composite vs single source, and ignoring that the single source literally should be composite since its canonly is). But eh. Lets see how they make a super soldier lose to a failed Robin next time.. I think on that second point that if a character's personality has to undergo that much of a change they shouldn't be in it. Obi v Kakashi shouldn't have happened, for example, cause a no limits Obi is a Dark Side Obi, who's a wildly different person.

[Kitten Champion]

Obi-Wan Kenobi isn't a pacifist. Pacifists don't regularly kill sentient beings with laser swords. He's reserved and uses violence in a manner consistent with his Order, but he's more Knight Templar than ascetic monk.

Regardless, just because it's a Death Battle doesn't mean a character vanishes entirely. I would use the example of Harry Potter and Avada Kedavra, a spell he literally cannot use canonically because it requires a specific intent and disposition that he lacks. Saying "a Potterverse Wizard can use the Killing Curse and this is Death Battle so he's locked into homicidal mode" tells me you never really wanted to use that character with his nature and limitations and merely have him because Potterverse Wizard v. [Insert Opponent Here] isn't alluring enough.

[Forum Explorer]

Thing is, what happens when that pacifism heavily informs their fighting style/ability use? I mean, if, say, Jaime Reyes Blue Beetle has his no-kill rule turned off, things are going to be very, very different when he goes up against you, given that the Scarab appears to pack weaponry with 'possible theological implications' that Jaime simply refuses to use. Fights are gonna go a little differently when the Blue Beetle uses his 'render three square blocks into their constituent gluons ray' rather than just trying to deck his opponent.

He would likely still try and punch you, just out of sheer habit, if nothing else. Oh, he might pull out those weapons eventually, but it just likely wouldn't be his first resort when he's never used that weapon before. If nothing else, he wouldn't be very skilled with those weapons in comparison to punching people.

But that's also kinda my point. The Jedi are the best example of this. They have a ton of potential powers that they typically don't use, because they typically don't want to kill their opponent. They are perfectly willing to kill mind you, but restrain themselves to not fall to the Dark Side. Removing their compunctions against killing won't suddenly make Obi-Wan an aggressive fighter who throws power around like a brute. He'd still be all about taking defensive careful actions and trying to win by countering their opponent.

Basically, removing their pacifism doesn't mean removing their personality. And if their personality makes them less effective at killing, then so be it.

[Traab]

So uhhh THIS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rA3B2_D-QM) is a thing I guess?

[TeChameleon]

He would likely still try and punch you, just out of sheer habit, if nothing else. Oh, he might pull out those weapons eventually, but it just likely wouldn't be his first resort when he's never used that weapon before. If nothing else, he wouldn't be very skilled with those weapons in comparison to punching people.

But that's also kinda my point. The Jedi are the best example of this. They have a ton of potential powers that they typically don't use, because they typically don't want to kill their opponent. They are perfectly willing to kill mind you, but restrain themselves to not fall to the Dark Side. Removing their compunctions against killing won't suddenly make Obi-Wan an aggressive fighter who throws power around like a brute. He'd still be all about taking defensive careful actions and trying to win by countering their opponent.

Basically, removing their pacifism doesn't mean removing their personality. And if their personality makes them less effective at killing, then so be it.

Okay, I kind of get where you coming from, although I'm not sure I agree 100%- being in a Death Battle means that the character is automatically going to be a bit more aggressive than normal. That being said, yeah, their personality should be intact if DB wants anyone to care about the fight.

[Rater202]

Okay, I kind of get where you coming from, although I'm not sure I agree 100%- being in a Death Battle means that the character is automatically going to be a bit more aggressive than normal. That being said, yeah, their personality should be intact if DB wants anyone to care about the fight.

They're inconsistent about it though.

They say that every character is a version who has no qualms about killing and is actively going in for the kill.

If Goku actually thought someone needed to die, he would be behaving much differently from him wanting to fight for fun.

More blatantly, the All Might vs Might Guy battle wasn't even a fight. They just both got way to freaking into an arm wrestling competition.

[Anteros]

To he honest, I just want an interesting fight between characters I like that's fun to watch. I could do without the whole "this is who would win if they were bloodlusted and possessed by Satan and so completely out of character they're unrecognizable."

The fun part is watching the fight and talking with others about it. I don't actually need to see the 9 year old Pokemon trainer brutally eviscerated in murder gore to enjoy myself. You ******* weirdos.

[HolyDraconus]

To he honest, I just want an interesting fight between characters I like that's fun to watch. I could do without the whole "this is who would win if they were bloodlusted and possessed by Satan and so completely out of character they're unrecognizable."

The fun part is watching the fight and talking with others about it. I don't actually need to see the 9 year old Pokemon trainer brutally eviscerated in murder gore to enjoy myself. You ******* weirdos.

Lol eh, Ash got beat down by Misty and Tai is a literal adult that is active playing soccer. That fist fight can only go one way.

[Kitten Champion]

Lol eh, Ash got beat down by Misty and Tai is a literal adult that is active playing soccer. That fist fight can only go one way.

Eh, Ash has essentially hiked across several continents at this point. He isn't even allowed a bike.

Sure, he's eternally 10 so that's a pretty big physical disadvantage there, but let's not suggest he isn't freakishly robust.

[Dragonus45]

Eh, Ash has essentially hiked across several continents at this point. He isn't even allowed a bike.

Sure, he's eternally 10 so that's a pretty big physical disadvantage there, but let's not suggest he isn't freakishly robust.

Don't forget the canon weight of various pokemon he has hauled around over the years, sometimes one handed. Dude is ripped.

[HolyDraconus]

Eh, Ash has essentially hiked across several continents at this point. He isn't even allowed a bike.

Sure, he's eternally 10 so that's a pretty big physical disadvantage there, but let's not suggest he isn't freakishly robust.


Don't forget the canon weight of various pokemon he has hauled around over the years, sometimes one handed. Dude is ripped.

And Tai has done similar. Lol

[Dragonus45]

And Tai has done similar. Lol

Tai has decked a few digimon in his career but, leaving aside the “Ash lifted cosmoem that one time” meme stuff like having a 35pound bird perch in your fully extended wrist with no visible discomfort is pretty far out there by comparison.

[Traab]

Didnt he have a hippopotas riding on his head at one point? Like it had lost its parents or herd or whatever and they helped find it? Those things weigh over 100 pounds, and its just hanging out on top of a ten year old kids neck.

[TeChameleon]

I'm... not sure that Ash uses his head for much of anything, considering how many forcefields he's headbutted over the years (no idea what's up with that, but he made a real habit of it for a while, especially in the movies).

But there's also the time he pretty much caber-tossed a huge log that a lot of grown men would have struggled to even move, so... yeah, Ash is freakishly strong.

[Rater202]

There's a fanfic that depicts Ash as secretly being a mew with ADHD using transform to disguise as a human child.

I think the author might be on to something/s

More seriously, it's canon that Ash is an aura user, which means he has various vaguely defined superpowers that are somewhere between ki manipulation and soul manifestation.

...That he never uses and actively refused to study "becuase I don't want to be an aura master, I want to catch pokemon" even though aura would make it easier to communicate with pokemon.

[HolyDraconus]

There's a fanfic that depicts Ash as secretly being a mew with ADHD using transform to disguise as a human child.

I think the author might be on to something/s

More seriously, it's canon that Ash is an aura user, which means he has various vaguely defined superpowers that are somewhere between ki manipulation and soul manifestation.

...That he never uses and actively refused to study "becuase I don't want to be an aura master, I want to catch pokemon" even though aura would make it easier to communicate with pokemon.

He has a riolu that hasnt evolved, he has time to learn it.

[Traab]

There's a fanfic that depicts Ash as secretly being a mew with ADHD using transform to disguise as a human child.

I think the author might be on to something/s

More seriously, it's canon that Ash is an aura user, which means he has various vaguely defined superpowers that are somewhere between ki manipulation and soul manifestation.

...That he never uses and actively refused to study "becuase I don't want to be an aura master, I want to catch pokemon" even though aura would make it easier to communicate with pokemon.

Heh, im reading an extremely long still ongoing fanfic about that. Team galactic destroyed the universe, arceus sends him back in time to the start of his journey after some solid training in aura, and he proceeds to be the head of a pokemon wrecking crew as this ash isnt a (total) moron, he can remind his friends and pokemon he was close to of their previous lives, and almost everyone is working on 5 years of experience to get their pokemon that much better now. Also due to aura ash and crew can talk to their pokemon. As an example of how good everyone is, misty gets invited to join the elite 4 by the time ash is on his silver league run. Jessie james and meowth are now allies (in secret, they are still team rocket members) And they are also surprisingly competent this time around which makes their boss very happy. It basically goes through the majority of the anime events but they tend to work out differently because in some cases the escalation is way out of control Such as pokemon 3 spell of the unknown. He has to deal with all three legendary beast copies instead of just entei. And in others because due to changing events, ash is actually pretty well known after he finishes indigo and orange leagues and DEFINITELY well known after silver. So a lot of the people he deals with react very differently when he shows up to handle a problem. Ashes of the Past is the story name if you want to read it. Its at just under 2 millions words and counting.

[McNum]

Heh, im reading an extremely long still ongoing fanfic about that. Team galactic destroyed the universe, arceus sends him back in time to the start of his journey after some solid training in aura, and he proceeds to be the head of a pokemon wrecking crew as this ash isnt a (total) moron, he can remind his friends and pokemon he was close to of their previous lives, and almost everyone is working on 5 years of experience to get their pokemon that much better now. Also due to aura ash and crew can talk to their pokemon. As an example of how good everyone is, misty gets invited to join the elite 4 by the time ash is on his silver league run. Jessie james and meowth are now allies (in secret, they are still team rocket members) And they are also surprisingly competent this time around which makes their boss very happy. It basically goes through the majority of the anime events but they tend to work out differently because in some cases the escalation is way out of control Such as pokemon 3 spell of the unknown. He has to deal with all three legendary beast copies instead of just entei. And in others because due to changing events, ash is actually pretty well known after he finishes indigo and orange leagues and DEFINITELY well known after silver. So a lot of the people he deals with react very differently when he shows up to handle a problem. Ashes of the Past is the story name if you want to read it. Its at just under 2 millions words and counting.
Thanks for reminding me. I'm probably a hundred chapters behind on that, but it is really fun.

Favorite bit: Ash's first meeting with an Absol. Because yeah, if your thing is sensing impending disaster and Ash shows up, you'd jump out the window in sheer terror, too.

[Traab]

Thanks for reminding me. I'm probably a hundred chapters behind on that, but it is really fun.

Favorite bit: Ash's first meeting with an Absol. Because yeah, if your thing is sensing impending disaster and Ash shows up, you'd jump out the window in sheer terror, too.

Yeah that part was great. "NOPE! Nope nope nope!" /crash Im honestly curious to see what the actual ending will be like. I mean, aside from the exhibition matches he hasnt faced the elite 4 since his first try so its hard to tell what his current skill level is at, and im enjoying how his biggest issue is balancing his desire to win with not steamrolling the competition as he absolutely would if he brought out the big guns. Its kind of an interesting point. He wouldnt feel like he earned a victory if he went to the elite four with ho oh mewtwo etc etc etc and crushed them, but if he holds back his strongest pokemon then he might lose because he isnt fighting with his best. And so losing with one arm tied behind his back would feel cheap too. And then again we are seeing there is legendary, then there is LEGENDARY as the three beasts and keldeo arent exactly unstoppable juggernauts in combat, though still quite strong, but mewtwo or ho oh are just UNFAIR. But yeah, kinda curious to see if the author intends to go on till they reach the current anime point then have him retire as a pokemon master or what.

[Traab]

So if anyone cares, the seven and billy butcher from The Boys had a battle royale with homelander hovering over head as referee. The winner is....billy butcher briefly, who was then squished by homelander because of course. Black Noir did not take part for some reason. Cant imagine why.

[HolyDraconus]

To add to that, the winner of the featured match is duh. Winter Soldier. The fight looked passable, the whispers set a great mood and the final strike was abruptly applied. Next time on death battle is Venom....oh boy, isnt he like a god now? Vs Chrona from Soul Eater. I dunno. Chrona did manage to affect Death's son, who can be considered a demigod, but i dont think the kid can beat maka, who ISNT a demigod. The theme i guess is abuse. Or weapons that merge with people. Otherwise, since Chrona is insane it should of been paired with Carnage... but that may well be a stomp.

[Rater202]

I think it depends on which Venom they choose.

Ignoring the minor hosts, we've got Eddie, Mac Gargon/The Scorpion, Flash Thompson, Then Eddie again but stronger.

There's also the upgrade that Venom when it almost got assimilated into the Grendel.

And Legion/Venom II: The artificial symbiotes composed of 16 pieces of various symbiotes extracted from the bodies of Captain America, Hawkeye, The Thing, Wolverine, Normie Osborn, the Kree supersoldier Tel-Kar, and four civilians that had the combined powers and skills of all of those people and their respective symbiotes. As well as, seemingly, the powers of the original Venom(possibly indicating that Eddie's own symbiote codices were incorporated into it when he bonded with the others.)

For a brief period of time, "Venom" wasn't even "Venom," but a amalgamation of Venom, Legion, Dark Carnage*, Mania, possibly Scorn, and the thousands of codices of many many different symbiotes that Dark Carnage absorbed to ascend to Godhood. IT's just that Venom was the dominant persona.

Currently, Dark Carnage was forcibly separated from Venom after it took control of the amalgamation but it's unknown how the other members and assorted codices were divided among them. (Though Dar Carnage does not appear to be in it's God Form.)

*Also known as Devil Carnage and Carnage Iv, Dark Carnage is a symbiote created by combing the remnants of The Grendel with the traces of the Carnage symbiote in the corpse of Cletus Kassady. It has the full power of the Carnage symbiote and the unique traits of Grendel, as well as the memories and personality of the original carnage, but despite everyone thinking of it as "the Carnage symbiote" it's canonically a new symbiote and the original carnage, and original Grendal, are both dead. It's Carnage the way that Ben Reilly is Peter Parker, basically.

If they take Absolute Carnage but not Venom Island, then this is a stomp in Venom's favor unless they only do the Manga version of Crona, who eventually becomes a Kishin.

[Kitten Champion]

Hmm... Well, looking at the wikis for both. The two big things Crona has going for themselves is a powerful soundwave attack, and the capacity to induce madness by being in anyone's general proximity so long as they don't have the requisite spiritual/mental defenses. Though, I haven't read the manga and apparently Crona gets stronger in the story-line that the anime didn't follow.

While potentially interesting here - given Venom's psychology and that of many of its hosts - I don't know how much "can spread madness like a Lovecraftian monster" could be reasonably translated into a Death Battle.

The high-frequency vibrations Crona and Ragnarok can generate is fairly straightforward though.

[Rater202]

Here's the thing: If they count Absolute Carnage, sonics shouldn't a problem for Eddie anymore.

The Legion symbiote includes a piece of Carnage that was removed with Goblin Childe. At that time, the Carnage symbiote had not only ben enhanced with the power of the Darkhold, which removed the weakness to sound as heat(as I've noted in my criticism of Carnage versus Lucy, that happened well over a year before that match was announced) but had been treated with the Goblin formula which had actually made it immune to fire and sonics.

As well as a chunk of Tyrannosaurus, an offshoot of Grendel, pulled from Wolverine. Tyrannosaurus was able to ignore napalm(though was seemingly killed by a Blast Furnace turned up o be as hot as the surface of the sun, as was Grendal who shrugged off thermobaric missiles.) and it can be assumed that Tyrannosaurus and Grendal had a comparable resistance to sonics, as the fire weakness and the sound weakness are intrinsically linked.

Dark Carnage, noted to be a fusion of Grendal and cArnage, was able to ignore Hellfire produced by Andrea Benton, who is basically the Princess of Hell and designated heir of Mephisto, as well as fight and kill a Ghost Rider. And gain that Ghost Rider's power by eating a piece of Venom that was in her spine. Again, we can infer a comparable resistance to sound.

By the end of Absolute Carnage, both Legion and an even stronger Dark Carnage had been assimilated into Venom.

Basically, if they count Absolute Carnage it's gonna come down to "who can punch the hardest."

[Dragonus45]

Here's the thing: If they count Absolute Carnage, sonics shouldn't a problem for Eddie anymore.

The Legion symbiote includes a piece of Carnage that was removed with Goblin Childe. At that time, the Carnage symbiote had not only ben enhanced with the power of the Darkhold, which removed the weakness to sound as heat(as I've noted in my criticism of Carnage versus Lucy, that happened well over a year before that match was announced) but had been treated with the Goblin formula which had actually made it immune to fire and sonics.

As well as a chunk of Tyrannosaurus, an offshoot of Grendel, pulled from Wolverine. Tyrannosaurus was able to ignore napalm(though was seemingly killed by a Blast Furnace turned up o be as hot as the surface of the sun, as was Grendal who shrugged off thermobaric missiles.) and it can be assumed that Tyrannosaurus and Grendal had a comparable resistance to sonics, as the fire weakness and the sound weakness are intrinsically linked.

Dark Carnage, noted to be a fusion of Grendal and cArnage, was able to ignore Hellfire produced by Andrea Benton, who is basically the Princess of Hell and designated heir of Mephisto, as well as fight and kill a Ghost Rider. And gain that Ghost Rider's power by eating a piece of Venom that was in her spine. Again, we can infer a comparable resistance to sound.

By the end of Absolute Carnage, both Legion and an even stronger Dark Carnage had been assimilated into Venom.

Basically, if they count Absolute Carnage it's gonna come down to "who can punch the hardest."

So first off all the Darkhold's boosts still couldn't stop the heat reentry from burning carnage up in reentry, which was arguable less hot then some other things that had hit him before so the boosts there are inconsistent at best. The boosts he picked up as Dark Carnage certainly added up to more anyways so it's likely moot. Although how much of that power Dark Carnage even still has is also uncertain. At the very least Dark Carnage still got disabled by the electrical current of a trains third rail, and it's possible that since all the fire getting thrown at him during that arc was Hellfire that the divine nature of Knull's blessings made it less effective then fire might have been.


I'm not entirely certain of counting anything from Absolute Carnage as that was a ton of arguably temporary powers all stacked at once and probably not applied anymore considering that Knull got what he wanted and likely isn't giving Eddie. Plus he is separated from dark carnage almost immediately.

[Rater202]

They're not temporary power boosts.

You assimilate a codex, you get the codex's powers and knowledge

If Bob the Symbiote Host ripped the codices out of Spider-Man's spine and absorb them, Bob's symbiote would get Spider-Man's abilities, memories and skills, and a fraction of the powers of those symbiotes. If Bob's symbiote ate Venom, it would gain all of Venom's power.

That's explicitly what Codices are for.

Beyond that, while Dark Carnage was separated we don't know about Legion, Mania, or the various codices: The fact that Dark Carnage looks like Carnage instead of a black skeleton-devil monster seems to imply that the majority of the stuff stayed with Venom.

Death Battles regularly takes the absolute extremes of a character and even sometimes includes temporary power-ups(the time Shazam was 100 times his normal size was treated as his normal strength) so if they're maintaining consistency they'll use Venom between Absolute Carnage and Venom Island.

On Carnage dying on re-entry. Carnage had literally just regenerated from molecules and recreated Cletus's body from Archived DNA. (Poision Carnae was not Cletus. The human host is killed, broken down, and digested as part of the bonding process.)

It's going to be weaker than it normally would be, and thus more susceptible to damage. The Darkhold enchantment doesn't it them resistant to fire and sound, per se, it just gives it enough resistance to negate the weakness. It becomes like any-other attack, there's a certain threshold where you have to overcome the symbiote's inante durability and ability to regenerate before you can inflict harm. And no, no-selling Hellfire was explicitly the Dark Hold enhancement. Presumably it's a case of Dark Carnage just being that tough with the enchantment on top of it.

Bascially, you're arguing that Superman's bullet resistance is inconsistent citing an example where he was injured by an anti-tank rifle while recovering from Kryptonite posioning.

[Dragonus45]

They're not temporary power boosts.

You assimilate a codex, you get the codex's powers and knowledge

If Bob the Symbiote Host ripped the codices out of Spider-Man's spine and absorb them, Bob's symbiote would get Spider-Man's abilities, memories and skills, and a fraction of the powers of those symbiotes. If Bob's symbiote ate Venom, it would gain all of Venom's power.

That's explicitly what Codices are for.

No, when Dark Carnage takes the powers of Alejendra's spirit of vengeance they call out that the powers he gained were explicitly temporary.


Beyond that, while Dark Carnage was separated we don't know about Legion, Mania, or the various codices: The fact that Dark Carnage looks like Carnage instead of a black skeleton-devil monster seems to imply that the majority of the stuff stayed with Venom.

Considering neither of them looked like that it's fair to say something funky was going on. Either way we literally never even see him display any traits or powers of Dark Carnage even when he goes to fight the Maker after the island thing.



Death Battles regularly takes the absolute extremes of a character and even sometimes includes temporary power-ups(the time Shazam was 100 times his normal size was treated as his normal strength) so if they're maintaining consistency they'll use Venom between Absolute Carnage and Venom Island.

I agree adding temporary powers belonging to someone else that Venom never even displays any indication he has would be consistent for death battle. I doubt that's a good thing.




On Carnage dying on re-entry. Carnage had literally just regenerated from molecules and recreated Cletus's body from Archived DNA. (Poision Carnae was not Cletus. The human host is killed, broken down, and digested as part of the bonding process.)

It's going to be weaker than it normally would be, and thus more susceptible to damage. The Darkhold enchantment doesn't it them resistant to fire and sound, per se, it just gives it enough resistance to negate the weakness. It becomes like any-other attack, there's a certain threshold where you have to overcome the symbiote's inante durability and ability to regenerate before you can inflict harm. And no, no-selling Hellfire was explicitly the Dark Hold enhancement. Presumably it's a case of Dark Carnage just being that tough with the enchantment on top of it.

Bascially, you're arguing that Superman's bullet resistance is inconsistent citing an example where he was injured by an anti-tank rifle while recovering from Kryptonite posioning.

Magical defenses wouldn't care how tired the symbiote is, it shows that neither the Dark Hold stuff or the Normie Osbourne stuff were enough to no sell heat entirely other then the occasions where it was because comics hate consistency. And still not relevant because it's carnages power and not venoms.

[Rater202]

Carnage wouldn't have had the Goblin formula stuff when it burned up in reinetry.

the Carnage symbiote was destroyed before it could get back to Cletus so the traces of it in hs body wouldn't have had those powers.

And again, the Darkhold Enchantment doesn't make him immune to fire and sonics.

It makes him resist it enough that it doesn't hurt him any more than any other attack. It negates the weakness. "not weak to fire" is not the same thing as "immune to fire."

After a fresh regeneration and resurrecting it's host, it's going to be much easier to hurt then it would be at full power.

So again, you're basically citing that Superman got killed by an Anti-Tank rifle while recovering from Kryptonite poisoning.

On the Ghost Rider thing: The initial flood of memories fades(see also, Venom temporarily turning into a copy of Flash Thompson's personality when taking a piece of Venom extracted from Thompson's body) but the power is permanent. Otherwise, Cletus taking the codices in the first place would have been pointless.

Carnage's Ghost Rider form faded after the time limit passed, but he still had the power and information in the codex. Or do you think he gained the ability to manipulate souls and summon demons from the cult that has nothing to do with demons?

[Dragonus45]

Carnage wouldn't have had the Goblin formula stuff when it burned up in reinetry.

the Carnage symbiote was destroyed before it could get back to Cletus so the traces of it in hs body wouldn't have had those powers.

And again, the Darkhold Enchantment doesn't make him immune to fire and sonics.

It makes him resist it enough that it doesn't hurt him any more than any other attack. It negates the weakness. "not weak to fire" is not the same thing as "immune to fire."

After a fresh regeneration and resurrecting it's host, it's going to be much easier to hurt then it would be at full power.

So again, you're basically citing that Superman got killed by an Anti-Tank rifle while recovering from Kryptonite poisoning.

So the resistance to fire didn't matter even though it's help up against much hotter things before. Good to know. Doesn't matter anyways, venom is not carnage and doesn't have carnage's powers. The hellfire resistance when fighting the monsters of evil was certainly not possible without Knull's blessing, although word of god was vague on it and suggested it might be both it and the darkhold combined that let him do it which wouldn't matter for Eddie, who is decidedly not getting Knull's blessing



On the Ghost Rider thing: The initial flood of memories fades(see also, Venom temporarily turning into a copy of Flash Thompson's personality when taking a piece of Venom extracted from Thompson's body) but the power is permanent. Otherwise, Cletus taking the codices in the first place would have been pointless.

Carnage's Ghost Rider form faded after the time limit passed, but he still had the power and information in the codex. Or do you think he gained the ability to manipulate souls and summon demons from the cult that has nothing to do with demons?

I think he got those powers from the literal dark god riding shotgun for him, that was made pretty clear when he fought the Hulk.

The point of taking the codices was to force a reconnection with the hive mind and let Knull take them over again, not to gain power. None of which has been seen or heard from again after that event was over on either the Grendel piece or Eddie venom. It clearly diminishes with time, and even if it does last forever the power isn't with Eddie, it might be with Carnage, but Eddie hasn't shown a hint of having any of that power.

[Traab]

I dont think they included absolute carnage in the CARNAGE death battle, so its probably not going to be a factor here.

[Forum Explorer]

I was actually a little surprised, I thought the stealth advantage would count for more considering a well placed bullet would be lethal to either side.

Well I'm pretty sure any of Venom's intelligence feats can be thrown out the window. Crona has driven an entire branch of Meister's insane before, so unless Venom has some serious mental resistances, Crona will likely do the same here.

Also Crona's sonic attacks will at least let him bypass Venom's durability, but I think the big thing is if Crona can absorb Venom or not. If it was Carnage it would be a definite yes, as his ability to absorb people is entirely based off how crazy they are. I don't know how insane Venom is, or if it would count if he's driven insane during the fight.

Anyways, besides absorbing Venom, I don't think Crona has any way to bypass Venom's regeneration. Crona is certainly strong enough to hurt Venom, but has nothing that isn't in some way a stab, slice, or crush.

On the other hand, Crona's durability is high enough that Venom will have difficulty harming Crona, but has no regeneration, so each blow that does get through counts. Of course, each blow that does get through will just increase Crona's durability and strength as each drop of blood can be used in either defense or offense.

So yeah, I don't think Venom is strong enough to kill Crona quickly, so it's going to come down to how well Venom can resist the insanity causing effect, and then how well Venom can resist being absorbed. Crona did manage to absorb something that could effect the entire world, so that's not going to be easy.

[Dragonus45]

I dont think they included absolute carnage in the CARNAGE death battle, so its probably not going to be a factor here.

Absolute carnage is super recent, it wasn't even around when they did Carnage.

[Rater202]

I dont think they included absolute carnage in the CARNAGE death battle, so its probably not going to be a factor here.

Absolute Carnage came out like, last year. It was the major event before EMPYRE.

They're probably doing Venom now becuase The King in Black, a Venom-Centric Avengers/X-Men Crossover event, is coming up soon.

[Traab]

Absolute Carnage came out like, last year. It was the major event before EMPYRE.

They're probably doing Venom now becuase The King in Black, a Venom-Centric Avengers/X-Men Crossover event, is coming up soon.

Ah ok, I just recall there was a LOT of screaming about all the carnage feats that were utterly ignored or under reported during his fight, I could have sworn that was one of them. Im not a huge comic reader so I dont recall all the info. The extent of my knowledge is the first two times spiderman and venom had to team up to take him on and carnage had his own team of crazies.

[Dragonus45]

Yea if nothing else doing this [i] right[\i] before a big venom centric arc agains Knull that will likely have a ton of awesome moments to pull from seems cruel.

[Traab]

Yea if nothing else doing this [i] right[\i] before a big venom centric arc agains Knull that will likely have a ton of awesome moments to pull from seems cruel.

Honestly? Thats going to be a problem with any comic character still in print. Or anime for that matter. Please god dont take this as an opening to redirect to the argument again, but a good example was superman goku and how shortly after the first fight goku unleashed some rather huge powerups and even superman had a boost or two though still primarily was done on older feats. Point being, any ongoing character is going to get new feats as time goes on, leading to wanting to revisit old fights. I forget, did they do a second mewtwo fight using mega forms? Or was that in the only one they had?

[Rater202]

Ah ok, I just recall there was a LOT of screaming about all the carnage feats that were utterly ignored or under-reported during his fight, I could have sworn that was one of them. Im not a huge comic reader so I dont recall all the info. The extent of my knowledge is the first two times spiderman and venom had to team up to take him on and carnage had his own team of crazies.For the record, you seem to be thinking of Maximum Carnage which was a good videogame but a crappy comic book event.

Spider-Man, Venom, Cloak and Dagger, Blackcat, Firestar, Deathlock, Luke Cage, Iron fist, and Morbius the Living Vampire team up to defeat Carnage, Shriek, Doppelganger, Carion, and Demogoblin who are going on a murder spree.

The heroes were later joined by Captain America.

Notable, Shriek became Cletus's long term girlfriend after thi event and, not counting the time he was inverted, is pretty much the only person other than his symbiote that he cares about. (Though, just becuase he loves her, that doesn't mean he won't kill her when she gets boring, in his own words.)

I mention Absolute Carnage in my "I want them to redo these fights" rants because it re-emphasizes things that Screw Attack should have known about when they made the last one(The Darkhold enhancement)... And becuase if they do redo Carnage versus Lucy, well, Absolute Carnage is out so they'd have to take it into account

The main things though, that I complain about with that fight, is that the Gene Bomb explosion that Cletus canonically survived and recovered from logically would have been much bigger than the explosion they said Lucy could make and that would kill him(From what I can tell, they took the size of the blast after he smothered the bomb with his body and ate most of the energy of the explosion and assumed that was it's actual size which... makes absolutely no sense) and that he permenantly lost his specific weakness to fire and sound in a storyline that had been out for over a year by the time they announced the matchup.

It comes across to me as being like... There are times where it's hard to tell if they robbed someone on purpose, but knowing their track record. This feels like one of those times.

[Forum Explorer]

For the record, you seem to be thinking of Maximum Carnage which was a good videogame but a crappy comic book event.

Spider-Man, Venom, Cloak and Dagger, Blackcat, Firestar, Deathlock, Luke Cage, Iron fist, and Morbius the Living Vampire team up to defeat Carnage, Shriek, Doppelganger, Carion, and Demogoblin who are going on a murder spree.

The heroes were later joined by Captain America.

Notable, Shriek became Cletus's long term girlfriend after thi event and, not counting the time he was inverted, is pretty much the only person other than his symbiote that he cares about. (Though, just becuase he loves her, that doesn't mean he won't kill her when she gets boring, in his own words.)

I mention Absolute Carnage in my "I want them to redo these fights" rants because it re-emphasizes things that Screw Attack should have known about when they made the last one(The Darkhold enhancement)... And becuase if they do redo Carnage versus Lucy, well, Absolute Carnage is out so they'd have to take it into account

The main things though, that I complain about with that fight, is that the Gene Bomb explosion that Cletus canonically survived and recovered from logically would have been much bigger than the explosion they said Lucy could make and that would kill him(From what I can tell, they took the size of the blast after he smothered the bomb with his body and ate most of the energy of the explosion and assumed that was it's actual size which... makes absolutely no sense) and that he permenantly lost his specific weakness to fire and sound in a storyline that had been out for over a year by the time they announced the matchup.

It comes across to me as being like... There are times where it's hard to tell if they robbed someone on purpose, but knowing their track record. This feels like one of those times.

The logic behind the gene bomb is spottier than a leopard. I read that storyline, there's nothing wrong with Death Battle's calculations there, all the fault lies on the comic book author for portraying it that way. If you try and say that logically a bomb needing to effect the entire planet would need to be stronger than was portrayed, than I'm obligated to point out that logically a biological weapon wouldn't explode in the first place and that inside of a room with no windows and metal meter thick walls is a horrible place for it to go off in the first place.

Even if Carnage didn't have a weakness to fire at that point, there is still enough energy released in a nuke to still kill him. He'd actually need immunity to fire to make that debatable. And they haven't nuked him in the comics (yet.)

[TeChameleon]

*shrug*

They can power up Carnage and Venom as much as they want; sooner or later a writer who grew up reading the older version of the symbiotes where they were weak to sonics and fire will revert them back to that, possibly without even bothering to explain or acknowledge the change, because that's how they're 'supposed' to be. And that's just comics, unfortunately.

[HolyDraconus]

*shrug*

They can power up Carnage and Venom as much as they want; sooner or later a writer who grew up reading the older version of the symbiotes where they were weak to sonics and fire will revert them back to that, possibly without even bothering to explain or acknowledge the change, because that's how they're 'supposed' to be. And that's just comics, unfortunately.

Which ultimately wont matter in a versus series like this, cause it will at that point be considered an outlier. Which is sad.

[Rater202]

*shrug*

They can power up Carnage and Venom as much as they want; sooner or later a writer who grew up reading the older version of the symbiotes where they were weak to sonics and fire will revert them back to that, possibly without even bothering to explain or acknowledge the change, because that's how they're 'supposed' to be. And that's just comics, unfortunately.

The problem with that is the fact that "Venom and Carnage are constantly getting stronger" is an integral part of how symbiotes work.

And also the current writer for Vnom, Donny Cates, is a fan who grew up with the older version of the characters and he not only didn't do that, he explained that the weakness to fire and sonics is basically a combination of psychosomatic and a quirk of their biology.

[Dragonus45]

The arc right after carnage became a small god he suddenly looks like old carnage with zero explaination, and when Eddie thought it would be time to deal with Carnage in a fight the first thing he does is go for his stash of flame throwers. This is life in comics, poorly explained life in comics.

[TeChameleon]

There's also the fact that Carnage and Venom are, at their core, both still Spider-Man villains, and Spider-Man has to be able to take them down. So integral part of symbiote biology or not, eventually the powerup pendulum is going to swing the other way when someone wants to use them for a Spider-Man storyline. Because Carnage being a tiny god is as likely to stick as Franklin Richards growing up (poor kid has actually been passed by a number of less-known kid characters, like Cassie Lang, who started off four or five years younger than him, but who is now in her mid-teens, while poor Frank is, at best, a tween).

[Rater202]

1: Venom hasn't been a Spider-Man villain in almost a decade. Technically, the character's been a rival/antiheroic ally of Spider-Man's since the late eighties/early ninties except when he first started out and during the period of time when MacGargon was the host. There was also a five issue Mini-series, set between Flash Thompson losing the symbiote and Eddie reclaiming it, where the host Lee Price was a villainous Venom but he was never intended to be a long term thing.

Not to mention that, before it was Venom, it was actively trying to help Spider-Man and just didn't know that the way it was doing so was scary and disturbing.

For the vast majority of Venom's existence in the comics, a period of just slightly over 34 years, Venom has been an (Anti-)hero (reluctantly) allied to Spider-Man.

Heroic venom is the default.

Venom is no more a Spider-Man villain than the Punisher is.

And Carnage isn't a Spider-Man villain.

Carnage is an ensamble villain. He only appears in team-ups and crossover events, accepting New Avengers when he was killed off to make room for MacGargon's overtly villainous venom.

Canage's whole thing is that neither Spider-Man nor venom can defeat him on their own so they have to work together or get help from others to take him down.

He also runs on Slasher-Killer tropes: Every time he turns up, he's harder to put down than he was the last time.

[HolyDraconus]

... no i'm gonna agree with Chameleon on this one: he's associated with Spider Man as a Spidey villian. Doesn't matter what he's supposed to BE when he's going to be used as such. As a random experiment I asked a few people at my local comic shop if they knew who Itsy was. None did. But all know Carnage.... thru Spidey.. And I don't see Marvel updating his comics to prevent that.

[Rater202]

... no i'm gonna agree with Chameleon on this one: he's associated with Spider Man as a Spidey villian. Doesn't matter what he's supposed to BE when he's going to be used as such. As a random experiment I asked a few people at my local comic shop if they knew who Itsy was. None did. But all know Carnage.... thru Spidey.. And I don't see Marvel updating his comics to prevent that.

If they only think of Carnage as "spider-man villain" then they're a casual fan, not the kind of hardcore fan who memetically reverts character development to make things the way he remembers.

Carnage is going to continue to have the running theme of "harder to put down and requiring Venom and/or Spidey to team up with other heroes to beat" and if Venom gets reverted to a villain he'll be reverted back to Anti0-Hero a little bit later.

Becuase those are their status quos. Those are the default.

[Mystic Muse]

...Wait, Carnage has been/is an anti-hero? I thouught he was an unrepentant serial killer?

[HolyDraconus]

If they only think of Carnage as "spider-man villain" then they're a casual fan, not the kind of hardcore fan who memetically reverts character development to make things the way he remembers.

Carnage is going to continue to have the running theme of "harder to put down and requiring Venom and/or Spidey to team up with other heroes to beat" and if Venom gets reverted to a villain he'll be reverted back to Anti0-Hero a little bit later.

Becuase those are their status quos. Those are the default.

The default is how the people see it. And currently, there are MORE casual comic fans than there is hardcore, which means the default IS what those casual fans see. That is the new status quo because its what those, a majority, believe. Again, it may be that if you sat down and read those comics thoroughly you can come away with the conclusion that that belief is incorrect, but until you convert the majority of casuals into hardcore, thus changing the belief, that's simply not true.

[Rater202]

...Wait, Carnage has been/is an anti-hero? I thouught he was an unrepentant serial killer?

Venom is the anti-hero. I may have mistyped

I'm arguing against the idea that they're "just" Spider-Man villains and will inevitably be reverted to such.

Venom's been an Anti-Hero for the vast majority of his existence in comics.

Carnage is an ensemble villain(IE, a villain who exclusively fights two or more heroes at a time) who, like Freddy Krueger, Michael Myers, or Jason Vorhees, always comes back and is always harder to put down than he was last time.

That's the status quo for them.

Carnage becoming a minor lovecraftian God is on perfectly on-brand and is probably not going to be reverted just so Spider-Man can beat him easily, becuase it's a major, defining part of his character that Spidey and Venom have to team up and/or bring in a bunch of other heroes to beat him.

[TeChameleon]

\Carnage is an ensemble villain(IE, a villain who exclusively fights two or more heroes at a time) who, like Freddy Krueger, Michael Myers, or Jason Vorhees, always comes back and is always harder to put down than he was last time.

That's the status quo for them.

Carnage becoming a minor lovecraftian God is on perfectly on-brand and is probably not going to be reverted just so Spider-Man can beat him easily, becuase it's a major, defining part of his character that Spidey and Venom have to team up and/or bring in a bunch of other heroes to beat him.

Hrm... I may not have communicated my meaning as well as I'd hoped; as I said, Carnage is a Spidey villain at the end of the day. 'Minor Lovecraftian deity' Carnage is someone against whom Spider-Man is completely helpless, which is not on-brand for Spidey. It may be that Spider-Man always needed help against Carnage, but he was never totally helpless against him; as Spidey's villain, Spider-Man has to be able to contribute meaningfully to the fight.

King of Hell Carnage (or whatever other goofy thing they've done to make him even edgelordier) is someone that Spider-Man cannot meaningfully interact with, and that's not on-brand for Spider-Man. And no matter how apropos it is for Carnage to get all uber and edgy, at the end of the day, Spider-Man being on-brand is more important for the book.

Thus my assertion that eventually, Carnage will be de-powered to a level where Spider-Man can once again (with help) beat him.

[Keltest]

Venom is the anti-hero. I may have mistyped

I'm arguing against the idea that they're "just" Spider-Man villains and will inevitably be reverted to such.

Venom's been an Anti-Hero for the vast majority of his existence in comics.

Carnage is an ensemble villain(IE, a villain who exclusively fights two or more heroes at a time) who, like Freddy Krueger, Michael Myers, or Jason Vorhees, always comes back and is always harder to put down than he was last time.

That's the status quo for them.

Carnage becoming a minor lovecraftian God is on perfectly on-brand and is probably not going to be reverted just so Spider-Man can beat him easily, becuase it's a major, defining part of his character that Spidey and Venom have to team up and/or bring in a bunch of other heroes to beat him.

They may not be "just" spider-man villains, but they are iconically spider-man villains. If you ask a random dude on the street who Venom is, theyre most likely going to respond that theyre a spider-man bad guy. Its the most well known image of the character.

[HolyDraconus]

Hrm... I may not have communicated my meaning as well as I'd hoped; as I said, Carnage is a Spidey villain at the end of the day. 'Minor Lovecraftian deity' Carnage is someone against whom Spider-Man is completely helpless, which is not on-brand for Spidey. It may be that Spider-Man always needed help against Carnage, but he was never totally helpless against him; as Spidey's villain, Spider-Man has to be able to contribute meaningfully to the fight.

King of Hell Carnage (or whatever other goofy thing they've done to make him even edgelordier) is someone that Spider-Man cannot meaningfully interact with, and that's not on-brand for Spider-Man. And no matter how apropos it is for Carnage to get all uber and edgy, at the end of the day, Spider-Man being on-brand is more important for the book.

Thus my assertion that eventually, Carnage will be de-powered to a level where Spider-Man can once again (with help) beat him.


They may not be "just" spider-man villains, but they are iconically spider-man villains. If you ask a random dude on the street who Venom is, theyre most likely going to respond that theyre a spider-man bad guy. Its the most well known image of the character.

Exactly these.

[Rater202]

The default is how the people see it. And currently, there are MORE casual comic fans than there is hardcore, which means the default IS what those casual fans see. That is the new status quo because its what those, a majority, believe. Again, it may be that if you sat down and read those comics thoroughly you can come away with the conclusion that that belief is incorrect, but until you convert the majority of casuals into hardcore, thus changing the belief, that's simply not true.


Hrm... I may not have communicated my meaning as well as I'd hoped; as I said, Carnage is a Spidey villain at the end of the day. 'Minor Lovecraftian deity' Carnage is someone against whom Spider-Man is completely helpless, which is not on-brand for Spidey. It may be that Spider-Man always needed help against Carnage, but he was never totally helpless against him; as Spidey's villain, Spider-Man has to be able to contribute meaningfully to the fight.

King of Hell Carnage (or whatever other goofy thing they've done to make him even edgelordier) is someone that Spider-Man cannot meaningfully interact with, and that's not on-brand for Spider-Man. And no matter how apropos it is for Carnage to get all uber and edgy, at the end of the day, Spider-Man being on-brand is more important for the book.

Thus my assertion that eventually, Carnage will be de-powered to a level where Spider-Man can once again (with help) beat him.


They may not be "just" spider-man villains, but they are iconically spider-man villains. If you ask a random dude on the street who Venom is, theyre most likely going to respond that they're a spider-man bad guy. Its the most well-known image of the character.


Exactly these.

No. I'm sorry, but you're all objectively wrong. That's not how it works with these characters.

Venom is Iconincally an Anti-Hero. That's what the fans know him as and what he is by default.

Carnage never been a Spider-Man villain. He was created as an evil(er) counterpart of Venom to give a reason for Spider-Man and Venom to work together, and if anything is a Venom villain. There's almost always either Venom or one of Carnage's siblings(or Carnage's own spawn, Toxin) in the teamups against carnage, and since Venom is also constantly getting stronger it balances out.

The Marvel comics writers have gone out of their way to make the comics different from the MCU. They're not gonna alienate long term fans by undoing over thirty years of history and, in Venom's case, character development so that Spider-Man can punch them out.

If that was going to happen, it would have happened to Carnage in the ninties when Spider-Man: The Animated Series was the main introduction to Spider-Man. It didn't, so it won't do it know now that Venom in the mainstream is "has his own movie with no relation to Spider-Man."

Particularly since Cate's run, with all of the Lovecraftian Elements, is one of the most popular runs of Venom ever.

The default Venom storyline is "Venom kills a bunch of bastards to protect the innocent from said bastards, like the Punisher but not as serial-killery."

The default Carnage storyline is "Carnage wants something, either going on a specific kind of rampage for Funzies or else is actively trying to get stronger, probably both. Spider-Man and/or Venom needs all the help they can get, so better assemble a team of C-Listers/Call in he Avengers/The Fantastic For/Where the Hell is the FBI's Anti-Symbiote Task Force."

What casual fans think of the characters has no bearing on what the Marvel Comics writers are going to do with it.

Even if Venom or Carnage do get reverted down so Spider-Man can beat them on their own and all of Venom's character development gets ignored for a story... That story will probably be ignored the next time becuase it'll piss off the readers who like those characters.

[Rynjin]

Venom is Iconincally an Anti-Hero. That's what the fans know him as and what he is by default.

That's not what iconic means.

For another comics example, the big dumb stupid "gets angrier as they get madder" Hulk is THE ICONIC HULK even though you could point to a bunch of comics and probably make a strong case that "dumb Hulk" actually appears in a minority of Hulk comics.

Because that is what people think of when they think of the Hulk.

And hey, guess what, [/i]that's the version all the adaptations use[/i], just like "villain Venom" is the take almost all of the adaptations use.

[Rater202]

And hey, guess what, [/i]that's the version all the adaptations use[/i], just like "villain Venom" is the take almost all of the adaptations use.

And adaptions don't affect the source material.

The Eye of Aggamoto didn't turn into a time machine in the comics becuase the MCU made it the Time Stone. Tony Stark was not retconned to have built Ultron becuase he did it in the movies. Wolverine did not stop smoking and drinking becuase he's been in a bunch of cartoons. Spider-Man didn't stop being an adult becuase every adaption but the Raimi movies insists on doing teen Spider-Man for some reason even though he was in fricking college by his 30th issue.

Venom isn't going to go back to being a villain after 30 years becuase he's a bad guy in a cartoon. Carnage isn't going to stop being an ensemble villain who is stronger and harder to beat every time he turns up becuase he's gonna be a oneshot villain in Venom's second movie if that ever gets made.

[Kitten Champion]

That's not what iconic means.

For another comics example, the big dumb stupid "gets angrier as they get madder" Hulk is THE ICONIC HULK even though you could point to a bunch of comics and probably make a strong case that "dumb Hulk" actually appears in a minority of Hulk comics.

Because that is what people think of when they think of the Hulk.

And hey, guess what, [/i]that's the version all the adaptations use[/i], just like "villain Venom" is the take almost all of the adaptations use.

I'd normally agree with you, you'd go with the Venom from the 90's Spiderman cartoon or the Raimi movies. However, the actual Venom movie from... 2018 (yes, I had to look up the year it came out because I've lost all concept of time) shows him as a clear anti-hero who murders and cannibalizes people but only random villainous mooks and it's mostly played for laughs. For reasons beyond my ken, that movie is set to create a whole universe around itself so I don't think it can be considered a small blip in the character's history.

Still, he's always been weak to fire and high frequency sound - in every film and television appearance since the 90's Spider-Man cartoon - so it'd be like "Superman got over his Kryptonite weakness in the most recent mega-event" and then having the vast majority of your audience not be confused when the Kryptonite bullets bounce off him or whatever.

Granted this all depends on Death Battle's evolving outlook on things, so I've no genuine expectations.

[Rater202]

And ignoring everything else, your argument is "at the end of the day the vast majority of the history of these characters, and thus, the lion's share of their feats and/or explicit powers don't matter becuase casual fans or movies fans who don't read the comics don't know about them."

Not only is that incredibly fallacious reasoning, that's not how Deathbattles roles. There have been glaring omissions in cases where it's obvious that they're biased, but for the most part they take the character's whole history.

[Devonix]

And ignoring everything else, your argument is "at the end of the day the vast majority of the history of these characters, and thus, the lion's share of their feats and/or explicit powers don't matter becuase casual fans or movies fans who don't read the comics don't know about them."

Not only is that incredibly fallacious reasoning, that's not how Deathbattles roles. There have been glaring omissions in cases where it's obvious that they're biased, but for the most part they take the character's whole history.

I've never understood the reasoning that liking some character more than another character would mean that they'd choose that character to win. What's the incentive?

[Rater202]

I've never understood the reasoning that liking some character more than another character would mean that they'd choose that character to win. What's the incentive?

I don't know.

But "they like this character more and a fudging things to make them win" is as good an explanation as any for them ignoring that Gaara's top feats top Tophs, not letting Miquel O'Hara have Mjolnir despite the entire original Marvel 2099 series building up to him getting it, Giving Hall Jordon the feats of the entire Green Lantern Corp while Ignoring the Onitrix's safety features and Alien X's utter invulnerability, and breaking their own rules to declare that Superman is infintly powerful and can never, ever be beaten becuase he's the best ever as anything else I've come up with.

[Traab]

I don't know.

But "they like this character more and a fudging things to make them win" is as good an explanation as any for them ignoring that Gaara's top feats top Tophs, not letting Miquel O'Hara have Mjolnir despite the entire original Marvel 2099 series building up to him getting it, Giving Hall Jordon the feats of the entire Green Lantern Corp while Ignoring the Onitrix's safety features and Alien X's utter invulnerability, and breaking their own rules to declare that Superman is infintly powerful and can never, ever be beaten becuase he's the best ever as anything else I've come up with.

Or picking and choosing links gear from all of his games while giving cloud his most basic set possible. If we are talking iconic for link you have the big shield, the master sword, and maybe the boomerangs and bombs. Thats his "iconic" gear, like cloud has his buster sword. As soon as you open the door to picking and choosing specific gear from across the entire universe of his games, you ruin the justification for not doing the same for cloud.

[Rater202]

Basically. There are situations where someone was obvioulsy robbed and "they liked the other guy better" is the best explanation I can think of.

But there are some matchups that, no, do seem fair and reasonable analysis and in those, they tend to take the whole character, not just the "iconic" traits that are common knowledge among casual fans.

[HolyDraconus]

And adaptions don't affect the source material.

The Eye of Aggamoto didn't turn into a time machine in the comics becuase the MCU made it the Time Stone. Tony Stark was not retconned to have built Ultron becuase he did it in the movies. Wolverine did not stop smoking and drinking becuase he's been in a bunch of cartoons. Spider-Man didn't stop being an adult becuase every adaption but the Raimi movies insists on doing teen Spider-Man for some reason even though he was in fricking college by his 30th issue.

Venom isn't going to go back to being a villain after 30 years becuase he's a bad guy in a cartoon. Carnage isn't going to stop being an ensemble villain who is stronger and harder to beat every time he turns up becuase he's gonna be a oneshot villain in Venom's second movie if that ever gets made.

You can be a Spidey villain and still be an anti-hero. That narrative isn't being affected and even casual fans have seen Spidey working with Venom... but they only know of Venom THROUGH Spidey. They only know of Carnage THROUGH Spidey. Without delving any deeper, that's what casuals see. And what they see brands it iconic. Saying otherwise is similar to complaining that Bizarro is still being shown as a Superman villain when HE had a run as an anti-hero. Sure, hardcore fans can dismiss it as WRONG, but the casuals outnumber the hardcore, and what THEY see makes it Iconic.

Hell, a more recent example is how Apocalypse, the First Mutant, is straight up a good guy in the current run of him. Yet conically, he was depicted as a mega bad guy. Hardcore fans can state "no, no he's a good guy now!" but what the casuals see of him, being all evil and crap from cartoons, movies and comics, makes his status quo A Bad Guy.

[TeChameleon]

not letting Miquel O'Hara have Mjolnir despite the entire original Marvel 2099 series building up to him getting it
Minor aside, it was Captain America (Steve Rogers) that ended up with Mjolnir, not Miggy, and if I'm remembering right, Mjolnir in that scenario was explicitly a sceptre, not an object of power (it didn't give the powers of Thor at that point), so it's sorta moot anyways.


Giving Hal Jordan the feats of the entire Green Lantern Corp while Ignoring the Omnitrix's safety features and Alien X's utter invulnerability
Dunno if I agree with Hal Jordan taking that one, but they did address the second two in the actual video- Vilgax was going to steal the Omnitrix by chopping off Ben's arm, which was treated as reasonable by the narrative, and Alien X was shown to be at least inconvenienced by energy blasts in the show, despite his best feats showing that it should be otherwise.

And I hate to say it, Rater, but my experience as a comics fan for 30+ years tends to indicate against what you're saying. Comics have their sacred status quo, and anything to change that takes some serious doing, and even then, it doesn't stick if the writers or editors decide they like their previous status quo better. One More Day, anyone?

As specific examples, all the big changes they made in the Crisis on Infinite Earths? Gradually got reverted as the fans that grew up with certain versions of the characters shifted the plotlines back to the way they were before the Crisis. Superman is the last son of Krypton? Nope, there's eight gajillion Kryptonians running around again. Heck, even Krypto is back. Barbara Gordon is crippled and becomes Oracle, as well as a strong symbol of hope for disabled people? Haha, no. Back into the Batgirl costume she goes. Matrix Supergirl? Nope, Kara Zor-El is back.

[Rater202]

And I hate to say it, Rater, but my experience as a comics fan for 30+ years tends to indicate against what you're saying. Comics have their sacred status quo, and anything to change that takes some serious doing, and even then, it doesn't stick if the writers or editors decide they like their previous status quo better. One More Day, anyone?

1: Doesn't apply to Venom and Carnage becuase "Anti-Hero Venom" and "Ensemble Villain Carnage who keeps getting harder to beat" Are the status quo for those characters. There's nothing to every becuase this is who they've always been.

2: One More Day isn't an good example becuase it was "reverting" Spider-Man to a past that never existed and, regardless, has been in the process of being reversed(it can't be undone without wrecking continuity at this point) since Nick Spencer took over.

If anything, you should have used that fact to let it be reverted.

Now, fans wanting things to be how they remember is one thing... But nobody whose never read a Venom comics is going to be allowed to write Venom, and I doubt that no stories that derail Venom's character at the time will be permitted as long as Venom is selling the big bucks. Venom's making money right now. Donny Cate's Venom is one of the best comics that Marvel has right now.

That and Immortal Hulk, which suggests that MArvel's readership's got a thing for Cosmic Horror in their superheroes, so I don't think "Dark Carnage" is going anywhere for a long time.

[Devonix]

Or picking and choosing links gear from all of his games while giving cloud his most basic set possible. If we are talking iconic for link you have the big shield, the master sword, and maybe the boomerangs and bombs. Thats his "iconic" gear, like cloud has his buster sword. As soon as you open the door to picking and choosing specific gear from across the entire universe of his games, you ruin the justification for not doing the same for cloud.

I think for Cloud, it's more that things like his other equipment doesn't actually canonically exist. The Buster Sword is the sword he uses during the game. Everything else is just numbers and gameplay mechanics.

Unless you want to do stuff like saying a baseball with a nail sticking in it is more powerful than Nearly any other weapon cloud has in his arsenal? Are you saying that if he had the nail bat he'd have had a better chance against Link?

The Weapons in FF7 other than the starter gear doesn't actually exist.

For the purpose of a versus. Stats and leveling don't exist and all the stuff in shops doesn't exist. It's the strength of the characters in the narative. It's why the someone like Drake isn't bullet proof just because he can take shots in the game.

[Forum Explorer]

Or picking and choosing links gear from all of his games while giving cloud his most basic set possible. If we are talking iconic for link you have the big shield, the master sword, and maybe the boomerangs and bombs. Thats his "iconic" gear, like cloud has his buster sword. As soon as you open the door to picking and choosing specific gear from across the entire universe of his games, you ruin the justification for not doing the same for cloud.

Their logic was fair, it just wasn't balanced. They got access to all of their equipment that doesn't directly contradict what they bring into a fighting game (Dissidia and Soul Caliber, respectively). That locks Cloud into his starting sword, but he can have other stuff like ribbons, best armor possible, and so on. But that does leave out the best Materia combos and the like. And while Link loses out on his top level stuff like invincibility, he has access to a lot of support items.

But I'll agree that they shouldn't have used that logic. Link is canonically a different person in each game (well almost every game). They should have decided which one is the strongest and then just used that one.

As for Cloud, well that's a bit harder since he's so darn variable. Either take the most optimized build on the internet, or try and figure out a way to translate game logic to reality to figure out how impressive dealing 9999 damage is.

[Devonix]

Their logic was fair, it just wasn't balanced. They got access to all of their equipment that doesn't directly contradict what they bring into a fighting game (Dissidia and Soul Caliber, respectively). That locks Cloud into his starting sword, but he can have other stuff like ribbons, best armor possible, and so on. But that does leave out the best Materia combos and the like. And while Link loses out on his top level stuff like invincibility, he has access to a lot of support items.

But I'll agree that they shouldn't have used that logic. Link is canonically a different person in each game (well almost every game). They should have decided which one is the strongest and then just used that one.

As for Cloud, well that's a bit harder since he's so darn variable. Either take the most optimized build on the internet, or try and figure out a way to translate game logic to reality to figure out how impressive dealing 9999 damage is.

I feel the number stuff shouldn't matter. the 9999 damage isn't a thing in game. We know what the characters do in the narrative, and that's what you should be looking at.

[Forum Explorer]

I feel the number stuff shouldn't matter. the 9999 damage isn't a thing in game. We know what the characters do in the narrative, and that's what you should be looking at.

That's kinda what they did. Which is a lot weaker than what Cloud could be. Like, narratively, Cloud beats Sephiroth after a hard fight. Optimized, Cloud can one-shot Sephiroth.

[Devonix]

That's kinda what they did. Which is a lot weaker than what Cloud could be. Like, narratively, Cloud beats Sephiroth after a hard fight. Optimized, Cloud can one-shot Sephiroth.

Ok I'm not sure you get what I'm saying. Narratively Cloud or Link can both be killed by a single stab from a regular sword. Or a couple of bullets.

Do you say we ignore that stuff and use game mechanics to cobble together an imaginary version over the actual characters?

[Forum Explorer]

Ok I'm not sure you get what I'm saying. Narratively Cloud or Link can both be killed by a single stab from a regular sword. Or a couple of bullets.

Do you say we ignore that stuff and use game mechanics to cobble together an imaginary version over the actual characters?

I am saying that their narrative versions are much weaker. By using them they go against the policy of using the characters at their absolute strongest. Using the narrative version of the characters like they did does have Link win.

Basically people dispute Death Battles results because they took a narrative composite rather than a game one.

[Keltest]

I am saying that their narrative versions are much weaker. By using them they go against the policy of using the characters at their absolute strongest. Using the narrative version of the characters like they did does have Link win.

Basically people dispute Death Battles results because they took a narrative composite rather than a game one.

They cant use the game composite versions though because the gameplay doesnt cross over. Link doesnt even take damage in hit points, he takes damage in hearts. Does he win by default because Cloud cant actually deal heart damage to him?

[Forum Explorer]

They cant use the game composite versions though because the gameplay doesnt cross over. Link doesnt even take damage in hit points, he takes damage in hearts. Does he win by default because Cloud cant actually deal heart damage to him?

I'm sure they could've figured out something, but yeah, it would've been a pain to do. Final Fantasy does not translate well. No turn based game does, really.

Overall, I don't actually have a problem with Link vs Cloud, mostly because the Cloud they used was significantly stronger than the Cloud I beat the game with. But I understand why people would be upset that they didn't use the strongest possible Cloud.

[Devonix]

They cant use the game composite versions though because the gameplay doesnt cross over. Link doesnt even take damage in hit points, he takes damage in hearts. Does he win by default because Cloud cant actually deal heart damage to him?

Most game mechanics don't cross over well. Its why I frown upon it.

[Traab]

Most game mechanics don't cross over well. Its why I frown upon it.

I mean, its not any different to use the game mechanics than to use comics or tv. We get to see them do something, calculate the numbers needed to achieve said feat, then say "This is the most impressive thing we see this character do." Admittedly in the case of ff7 at least, it provides some hilariously unbalanced results. "Cloud can canonically survive the sun exploding until it engulfs the portion of the planet he is standing on. Multiple times"

[Devonix]

I mean, its not any different to use the game mechanics than to use comics or tv. We get to see them do something, calculate the numbers needed to achieve said feat, then say "This is the most impressive thing we see this character do." Admittedly in the case of ff7 at least, it provides some hilariously unbalanced results. "Cloud can canonically survive the sun exploding until it engulfs the portion of the planet he is standing on. Multiple times"

But using it also means that a frog sticking his tongue out at frog a bunch of times can kill him.

The numbers in a comic aren't numbers in the same way. What does 500 hp translate to? What is HP?

Think Devil May Cry. In game the guns do pittling damage. In Narrative he can oneshot major demons with them.

[HolyDraconus]

I'm sure they could've figured out something, but yeah, it would've been a pain to do. Final Fantasy does not translate well. No turn based game does, really.

Overall, I don't actually have a problem with Link vs Cloud, mostly because the Cloud they used was significantly stronger than the Cloud I beat the game with. But I understand why people would be upset that they didn't use the strongest possible Cloud.

They didn't actually. Cloud canonically has ALL materia, as explained in Advent Children. Him using anything other than all isn't the correct Cloud.

[Forum Explorer]

They didn't actually. Cloud canonically has ALL materia, as explained in Advent Children. Him using anything other than all isn't the correct Cloud.

Considering that movie doesn't have Cloud use any materia, you're going to have to explain further.

[HolyDraconus]

Considering that movie doesn't have Cloud use any materia, you're going to have to explain further.

He didn't use any because it was stolen. His first fight with them he was caught out in the open, and they ambushed him. He had all materia in a chest. It was then stolen by the Remnants of Sephiroth, who then used some of it... sorta.(used...fused... the movie was weird). Even if you wanted to make the argument that it wasn't EVERY SINGLE PIECE EVER of materia, it still DWARFED what was shown in the Cloud v Link fight.

[Forum Explorer]

He didn't use any because it was stolen. His first fight with them he was caught out in the open, and they ambushed him. He had all materia in a chest. It was then stolen by the Remnants of Sephiroth, who then used some of it... sorta.(used...fused... the movie was weird). Even if you wanted to make the argument that it wasn't EVERY SINGLE PIECE EVER of materia, it still DWARFED what was shown in the Cloud v Link fight.

To be fair, they denied Cloud the Materia by giving him the best armor, but has no materia slots. And he does use Fire and Thunder in Dissidia so they gave him those ones. And considering he doesn't actually use any materia in the movie or fighting games, that kinda adds to the justification of setting it up in that way. So while he might own all the materia, he doesn't actually use it narratively. Which fits with his theme; he's the big warrior swordsmen. Magic is for women and old men and people with no faces.

Mind you, infinite counter attacks does fit with his theme, is significantly better, and is easy to translate narratively. Every time Link attacks, Cloud gets to attack back. While strongest armor is vague and doesn't translate well.

[Devonix]

To be fair, they denied Cloud the Materia by giving him the best armor, but has no materia slots. And he does use Fire and Thunder in Dissidia so they gave him those ones. And considering he doesn't actually use any materia in the movie or fighting games, that kinda adds to the justification of setting it up in that way. So while he might own all the materia, he doesn't actually use it narratively. Which fits with his theme; he's the big warrior swordsmen. Magic is for women and old men and people with no faces.

Mind you, infinite counter attacks does fit with his theme, is significantly better, and is easy to translate narratively. Every time Link attacks, Cloud gets to attack back. While strongest armor is vague and doesn't translate well.

To be fair a bunch of the best materia doesn't do anything in any setting outside of game mechanics. Think about stuff like 4cut. Deathblow. Long range. HP up. These are things that only work in a turn based rpg. The same way collecting hearts work in Zelda. They don't transfer.

Counter materia doesn't make sense or work in a deathbattle. Because the character is always countering simply by merit of fighting.

[Anteros]

To be fair, they denied Cloud the Materia by giving him the best armor, but has no materia slots. And he does use Fire and Thunder in Dissidia so they gave him those ones. And considering he doesn't actually use any materia in the movie or fighting games, that kinda adds to the justification of setting it up in that way. So while he might own all the materia, he doesn't actually use it narratively. Which fits with his theme; he's the big warrior swordsmen. Magic is for women and old men and people with no faces.

Mind you, infinite counter attacks does fit with his theme, is significantly better, and is easy to translate narratively. Every time Link attacks, Cloud gets to attack back. While strongest armor is vague and doesn't translate well.

And narratively Link isn't an invincible being with super strength behind each of his blows, but they still gave him those things.

[Rynjin]

And narratively Link isn't an invincible being with super strength behind each of his blows, but they still gave him those things.

That is...intensely debatable.

[HolyDraconus]

So the Venom blurp is up on Youtube (completely forgot about it so I didn't watch it early) and would you look at that, they cast him as a villain... a SPIDEY villain.

[Keltest]

So the Venom blurp is up on Youtube (completely forgot about it so I didn't watch it early) and would you look at that, they cast him as a villain... a SPIDEY villain.
I am shocked. Shocked I tell you.

[Rater202]

So the Venom blurp is up on Youtube (completely forgot about it so I didn't watch it early) and would you look at that, they cast him as a villain... a SPIDEY villain.

So, basically, they're going to ignore the vast majority of his history and probably screw him over.

[Traab]

So, basically, they're going to ignore the vast majority of his history and probably screw him over.

Well I mean, they covered his origin story and some of his various powers. You kinda HAVE to call him a spidey villain in that case as thats how he came about. The rest was mainly focused on his unusual skills like, I didnt know he could use empathy to make other symbiotes suicide. Or make people explode by going into them like overinflating a balloon I presume? But also his 360 degree vision, camo abilities, mighty morphin tendril power, and of course being spiderman only stronger. They are probably holding onto his major feats for later. This was just like a minute and a half to give a very brief look at him, explaining his full history is going to take longer.

[Rater202]

I'm tempted to go through and compile a list of things that Venom does, did, or can do as Eddie Alone, as the Symbiote Alone, as things the symbiote did with other hosts that there's no reason why it couldn't do with Eddie, that Us versions of the Symbiote that are explicitly the same as the main timeline version, things it should logically be able to do becuase all symbiotes can do them, and things it should be able to do but hasn't but has done this other thing that's super similar...

Basically, I'm tempted to treat Venom the way they treated Hal Jordon and cite things that would have affected the outcome if they'd taken it into consideration.

Off the top of my head, Venom: The End, a timeline depicting a hypothetical "final" story of the Main Venom, gives it the combined powers of Multiple Man, Elixir, Storm, Time Slip, Tempus, and Quicksilver all maximized to their logical extremes via being "remixed" by the combination of symbiote's natural genetic adaption and applying Elixr's biokenisis to itself.

It also genetically engineered multiple planets worse of "super-humanoids," humans enhanced with the DNA of Tardigrades and extremophilic bacteria, as well as Wolverine and Deadpool, to create superhumanly long-lived and hearty humans to serve as hosts for itself and it's dupes while waging war on a coalition of AI that was trying to wipe out all organic life in the universe and then turns the empty universe into a giant computer.

That's in addition to figuring out how to partially invert it's bio-lattice to create a burst of energy able to obliterate all matter within an area big enough to destroy a planet... The basics of which the 616-version of Venom figures out in Venom Volume 4 #27.

[Traab]

Crona blurb is up (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kt0LhFKYYI). From what im gathering there is still hope as in both cases they basically focused on origin, not on what sort of end game level feats they have pulled out. So hold hope that venom will get more than just his spidey villain level feats.

[SKarious]

Even without maximized comic book shenanigans, I'd still give this one to Venom over Crona.
Crona's parasite seems to be in her blood only, while Venom is bound to every molecule, ensuring quicker response and multiple points of contact.
Not to mention, Crona seems meek and hesitant. She'll probably try to resist her parasite. But Venom and Eddie are synchronized and work together.

[Rater202]

Crona isn't a "she."

Crona is... The dub refers to Crona with male pronouns but the original Japanese, especially in the manga, makes a point of never gendering Crona or revealing which, if either sex, they were born as. Crona is referred to exclusively by name or by geneder-neutral terms/pronouns.

So... They. The best pronoun to use is They.

[SKarious]

Oh, sorry. No offense meant. I don't really know anything about the anime or the characters within. Somehow managed to miss the fact W&B always referred to Crona by name or as "child".
I guess the character design reminded me of Sakura from Naruto.

[Rynjin]

It doesn't help that every dub of the series picks a different gender, I think.

But yeah, "they" is the best option. Partly because they're two people (Crona plus Ragnarok) on top of being completely gender ambiguous.

[tyckspoon]

To be fair a bunch of the best materia doesn't do anything in any setting outside of game mechanics. Think about stuff like 4cut. Deathblow. Long range. HP up. These are things that only work in a turn based rpg. The same way collecting hearts work in Zelda. They don't transfer.

Counter materia doesn't make sense or work in a deathbattle. Because the character is always countering simply by merit of fighting.

Quad-cut could just be a flurry attack, not much different to any other hail-of-punches/slashes/etc rapid attack kind of move. Long Range could be swordbeams/airblades; hitting somebody with a sword from far away isn't exactly a foreign idea for this kind of combat. HP Up would just be nebulous 'durability', although it's rather difficult to show how that applies outside of the video game - it would just get rolled into whatever credit they gave Cloud for having the 'best armor'.

Counter materia would probably be better depicted as a sort of reactive energy field, something that launches a burst when an enemy attack makes contact with it; Counter - Attack or Counter - Magic would be pretty easy to show in this fashion. Counter-Command doesn't have a lot of combat-relevant applications, although it would be fun to see Link get blasted with a bunch of Gil from Counter - Coin Toss..

[Forum Explorer]

I'm just going to repost my analysis from when we first learned about this match up:

I'm pretty sure any of Venom's intelligence feats can be thrown out the window. Crona has driven an entire branch of Meister's insane before, so unless Venom has some serious mental resistances, Crona will likely do the same here.

Also Crona's sonic attacks will at least let him bypass Venom's durability, but I think the big thing is if Crona can absorb Venom or not. If it was Carnage it would be a definite yes, as his ability to absorb people is entirely based off how crazy they are. I don't know how insane Venom is, or if it would count if he's driven insane during the fight.

Anyways, besides absorbing Venom, I don't think Crona has any way to bypass Venom's regeneration. Crona is certainly strong enough to hurt Venom, but has nothing that isn't in some way a stab, slice, or crush.

On the other hand, Crona's durability is high enough that Venom will have difficulty harming Crona, but has no regeneration, so each blow that does get through counts. Of course, each blow that does get through will just increase Crona's durability and strength as each drop of blood can be used in either defense or offense.

So yeah, I don't think Venom is strong enough to kill Crona quickly, so it's going to come down to how well Venom can resist the insanity causing effect, and then how well Venom can resist being absorbed. Crona did manage to absorb something that could effect the entire world, so that's not going to be easy.


Anyways, so my question for Marvel fans (well mostly Rater, but there's others in the thread), is how durable is Venom mentally? Because that's what I think it will come down to. If Venom can't resist Crona's insanity, than it's a win for Crona. If he can, then it's a win for Venom.

[Rater202]

Venom was once driven temporarily insane by falling into a vat of chemicals and was rendered semi-feral by the psychic backlash of the death of the Grendal, as well as briefly falling under Knull's control for a time when Knull was acting through the Grendal(and was almost assimilated into the Grendal) but seems to have developed a resistance to that.

Lee Price was able to keep it from leaving him and limit how it could affect his body using skills he was taught in the army to resist enemy psychics... But it was able to overcome that with the motivation of "Spider-Man is standing right there and says he ants to be my host again."

It's also once been forcibly purged of its bloodlust by the Hivemind on klyntar and had its memories of its first sapient host suppressed(and it's following memories altered) by hypnosis by the kree.

However: Symbiotes are powerful psychics and we've never seen them take a direct psychic attack from something that isn't Knull or a vessel thereof.

So, basically, it depends on what you mean by insanity and how the power works...

Eddie regularly struggles with mental illness: There was a period of time where he was convinced that failure to kill Spider-Man was a sin. He also thought for a while that random occurrence that gave him the Anti-Venom symbiote was God telling him that Symbiotes were demons and to kill them all.

(I feel bad for any Priests that have had to take Eddie's confessions.)

He's also had his mind screwed with by the symbiote heavily both during his first time with it and during a period of time when it was semi-feal and brain-damaged during the same run(though it separated from him when it realized that he was backsliding into toxic behaviors and didn't come back till it was fully recovered.)

Though, considering that an Insane Venom was able to not only stop the Juggernaut but send him flying in a different direction, driving Venom insane might make him more dangerous.

Another thing to take into account is whether or not being a Kishin makes Crona count as a God or Godlike being by the standards of Knull: All Symbiotes have "divine slaying" properties that allow them to kill beings that are otherwise immortal and inflict extra harm on godlike beings. (See War of the Realms, where Malakith the Accursed was able to force the symbiote to bond to him and manifest as a word that he used to inflict mortal wounds on Freya.)

It's also established that Dark Magic strengthens and heals symbiotes, in that same storyline being bonded to Malakith and thus, being exposed to the dark magic that was part of his being as a dark elf, basically cured the symbiote's, for lack of a better term, brain damage and was said to have made it stronger. So,

[Prime32]

Anyways, so my question for Marvel fans (well mostly Rater, but there's others in the thread), is how durable is Venom mentally? Because that's what I think it will come down to. If Venom can't resist Crona's insanity, than it's a win for Crona. If he can, then it's a win for Venom.On its own, the symbiote is often depicted as getting "poisoned" by evil minds it comes in contact with, becoming more violent and bloodthirsty itself. But when in sync with its host, they tend to be able to pool their mental strength and fight off things they couldn't alone.

[Rynjin]

I wonder what would happen if Crona absorbed Eddie but not Venom.

Maybe the fight will end via Venom "victory" by forming a new bond with Crona and/or Ragnarok. That would be new, if nothing else.

[Rater202]

Something I forgot: Symbiotes, their biggest advantage is that they absorb and adapt.

And sometimes this adaption happens very fast: In Mike costa's Venom run, the symbiote was super aggro becuase, essentially, the drugs the FBI made Eddie take when he was Toxin made his body chemistry harmful tot he symbiote and it was aggravating its corruption. Alchemex was able to cook up drugs that heal the corruption and treat the symptoms, but the symbiote adapted fast enough that the drugs stopped working and they had to take a different one every single time for them to have any effect.

So... It might be susceptible to being driven insane. But that doesn't man it'll stay insane,

[Forum Explorer]

Venom was once driven temporarily insane by falling into a vat of chemicals and was rendered semi-feral by the psychic backlash of the death of the Grendal, as well as briefly falling under Knull's control for a time when Knull was acting through the Grendal(and was almost assimilated into the Grendal) but seems to have developed a resistance to that.

Lee Price was able to keep it from leaving him and limit how it could affect his body using skills he was taught in the army to resist enemy psychics... But it was able to overcome that with the motivation of "Spider-Man is standing right there and says he ants to be my host again."

It's also once been forcibly purged of its bloodlust by the Hivemind on klyntar and had its memories of its first sapient host suppressed(and it's following memories altered) by hypnosis by the kree.

However: Symbiotes are powerful psychics and we've never seen them take a direct psychic attack from something that isn't Knull or a vessel thereof.

So, basically, it depends on what you mean by insanity and how the power works...


Any mental quirk taken too far is insanity. For example, Death the Kid has an overwhelming need to things to be symmetrical, which is considered a form of insanity. Crona once drove people to be obsessed with breasts, as another form of insanity.

The madness itself works by directly targeting the soul. That's why it is able to effect things like zombies.



Eddie regularly struggles with mental illness: There was a period of time where he was convinced that failure to kill Spider-Man was a sin. He also thought for a while that random occurrence that gave him the Anti-Venom symbiote was God telling him that Symbiotes were demons and to kill them all.

(I feel bad for any Priests that have had to take Eddie's confessions.)

He's also had his mind screwed with by the symbiote heavily both during his first time with it and during a period of time when it was semi-feal and brain-damaged during the same run(though it separated from him when it realized that he was backsliding into toxic behaviors and didn't come back till it was fully recovered.)

Though, considering that an Insane Venom was able to not only stop the Juggernaut but send him flying in a different direction, driving Venom insane might make him more dangerous.

Another thing to take into account is whether or not being a Kishin makes Crona count as a God or Godlike being by the standards of Knull: All Symbiotes have "divine slaying" properties that allow them to kill beings that are otherwise immortal and inflict extra harm on godlike beings. (See War of the Realms, where Malakith the Accursed was able to force the symbiote to bond to him and manifest as a word that he used to inflict mortal wounds on Freya.)

It's also established that Dark Magic strengthens and heals symbiotes, in that same storyline being bonded to Malakith and thus, being exposed to the dark magic that was part of his being as a dark elf, basically cured the symbiote's, for lack of a better term, brain damage and was said to have made it stronger. So,

So it sounds like Eddie certainly qualifies for absorption.

I don't think amping up Venom's physical capabilities will matter that much compared to creating the vulnerability to being absorbed by Crona. Though from the sounds of it, Venom might be insane enough to be absorbed already. It's kinda vague on the exact amount of insane you need to be.

Good question. The Kishin title is Demon God, so maybe? I think the demon part is the key word in the title though, if that makes a difference.

I don't think anything Crona does is actual dark magic. Just Madness based. Everyone has a little madness in them, Crona just amplifies it until it is the dominant part of who you are.


Something I forgot: Symbiotes, their biggest advantage is that they absorb and adapt.

And sometimes this adaption happens very fast: In Mike costa's Venom run, the symbiote was super aggro becuase, essentially, the drugs the FBI made Eddie take when he was Toxin made his body chemistry harmful tot he symbiote and it was aggravating its corruption. Alchemex was able to cook up drugs that heal the corruption and treat the symptoms, but the symbiote adapted fast enough that the drugs stopped working and they had to take a different one every single time for them to have any effect.

So... It might be susceptible to being driven insane. But that doesn't man it'll stay insane,

Well like I said, it's an attack on the soul. I don't think Venom's physically adaptability matters to that.

[Rater202]

Symbiotes are made of a substance called Living Abyss.

Basically, they're drawn from the shadow of a Primordial Elder God known as Knull, known as the King in Black, who predates the Big Bang and holds dominion over Darkness, Death, and Insanity. They're basically Hard Light... But, Darkness. Hard Absence-Of-Light.

I don't think there are any distinctions between physicality and spirituality... And that assumes that they even have souls: Symbiotes can't be affected by things like the Penance Stare.

They're also shown adapting to cosmic energy and magical powers.

For example, An X-Men storyline had Beast go back in time to when the original five X-Men were young, just after their first encounter with Magneto in their teen years, and bring them forward to prove a point to Cyclops... Then they got stuck and stayed in the modern-day for a few years real time.

During this time, Teen Beast started dabbling in magic out of frustration that tech had advanced so much and he didn't know how to keep up. He made a bad deal with a demon and had to stop using magic or else he ran the risk of turning into a demon, which would eventually become permanent.

In Poison X, when the teen O-5 X-Men go to space to rescue Cyclop's dad and kidnap Venom to help them because the people who kidnapped the Starjammers were wearing Symbiotes, the X-Men themselves end up bonded to symbiotes and, among other things, Beast's symbiote incorporated demonic traits from traces of the magic around him.

The only thing they don't seem to be able to adapt to is Cosmic Fire... And that one symbiote had only been bonded to Angel for a couple of hours.

Honestly, since Venom is, technically, and extension of a God of Madness, amplifying its insanity might backfire horribly now that I think about it.

[Devonix]

Quad-cut could just be a flurry attack, not much different to any other hail-of-punches/slashes/etc rapid attack kind of move. Long Range could be swordbeams/airblades; hitting somebody with a sword from far away isn't exactly a foreign idea for this kind of combat. HP Up would just be nebulous 'durability', although it's rather difficult to show how that applies outside of the video game - it would just get rolled into whatever credit they gave Cloud for having the 'best armor'.

Counter materia would probably be better depicted as a sort of reactive energy field, something that launches a burst when an enemy attack makes contact with it; Counter - Attack or Counter - Magic would be pretty easy to show in this fashion. Counter-Command doesn't have a lot of combat-relevant applications, although it would be fun to see Link get blasted with a bunch of Gil from Counter - Coin Toss..

The point is that it's materia that exists to give the characters a mechanical way to do things that they would in reality be able to do without them. It In a versus, or something like the remake, they're not present, because the mechanics of the battle change.

[Forum Explorer]

I don't think there are any distinctions between physicality and spirituality... And that assumes that they even have souls: Symbiotes can't be affected by things like the Penance Stare.



Honestly, since Venom is, technically, and extension of a God of Madness, amplifying its insanity might backfire horribly now that I think about it.

That's very interesting. If they judge Venom to not actually have a soul, than he'd basically be immune to everything Crona does. I mean, sure Crona has physical attacks, they just aren't actually all that noteworthy compared to what Venom normally fights.


Maybe it would be, but I don't think Crona can actually prevent their Madness waves from effecting everyone around them. Not without entirely sealing themselves away. But being a God of Madness (or part of one) does mean that Venom is eligible to be absorbed by Crona right off the bat. Crona did manage to absorb Asura, though it wasn't exactly stable, and when Crona's mind wavered, Asura was able to take back over. But then again, Crona did manage to regain control to act as the seal in order to seal them both away.

EDIT: I don't think Venom's adaptability will protect against absorption, because Crona gains the abilities of what they absorb. So if they absorb Venom, it'll basically be like two symbotes trying to eat each other.

[SKarious]

Doesn't Marvel have some usual shtick about oo much insanity making you immune to mind control, absorption and other hypnotizing/altering powers? Such as Deadpool being "too crazy to go insane" or someone with absolutely no remorse being totally immune to Ghost Rider's stare?

[Prime32]

Doesn't Marvel have some usual shtick about oo much insanity making you immune to mind control, absorption and other hypnotizing/altering powers? Such as Deadpool being "too crazy to go insane" or someone with absolutely no remorse being totally immune to Ghost Rider's stare?
Depends on whether Ghost Rider is the protagonist or not. When he is, the whole point of the Penance Stare is to punish people who don't feel remorse. But when he's in teamups, basically anyone who isn't crippled with guilt can shake it off.
Though IIRC symbiotes are immune to the Penance Stare... because they don't have eyes (Venom's are purely aesthetic and he doesn't use them to see).

[Forum Explorer]

Crona won. I'm not sure if they downplayed Venom's feats in the whole god arc he went through, or if I overestimated Venom's regeneration. They do make a point that Crona's sound attacks are powerful enough to kill super-powered people without a weakness to sound, so Venom not being quite as weak to sound as he used to be wouldn't really help that much.

I am disappointed that they didn't ask if Crona would be able to absorb Venom, or drive them insane. They just went by pure physical feats, and deemed Crona's to be higher. Which yeah, they are for the feats chosen. I just don't know if they ignored feats from Ultimate Carnage and the like.

Red vs Blue. Okay, so a Rooster Teeth special. Don't really care though.

[Traab]

As soon as they mentioned her moon covering sonic attack I knew it was over, resistance or not.

I really dont care about this in any way.

[Rater202]

Eh, I'd say that Divine Slaying might have made this a closer fight if it had been taken into account.

...Also, there was one occasion where an insane Venom was able to overpower the Juggernaut. Not just stop him but send him in another direction.

The Juggernaut was strong enough to match The Green Scar during World War Hulk. The is persona strong enough to shake planets apart by walking on them.

So, by the transitive property that Screw Attack loves so much... I don't know how it compares to Crona's greatest feat of strength but overpowering the Juggernaut has gotta be up there.

If we go full "Hal Jordon" treatment on Venom then there's regenerating from small scraps+plant control(from Groot) and planet-destroying blasts of concentrated sunlight(from Carol Danvers) as both were previous hosts of Venom.

And the combined powers of Ghost Rider and Red Hulk, if you wanna get Silly with this Hal Jorden treatment.

[McNum]

Pink haired waif-looking anime girl is secretly monstrously powerful. I feel like we've seen that before. Though I have to admit, I'm curious about her series now. It looks hilariously deranged and the idea of a protagonist who just wants nothing to do with everything, but keeps getting dragged into it amuses me.

It is a little odd that both symbiotes lost to a pink haired anime girl, though. Could they not have found something that wasn't a total rerun?

Meh. I vote purple. Or skip. Skip sounds good right about now.

[Forum Explorer]

Pink haired waif-looking anime girl is secretly monstrously powerful. I feel like we've seen that before. Though I have to admit, I'm curious about her series now. It looks hilariously deranged and the idea of a protagonist who just wants nothing to do with everything, but keeps getting dragged into it amuses me.

It is a little odd that both symbiotes lost to a pink haired anime girl, though. Could they not have found something that wasn't a total rerun?

Meh. I vote purple. Or skip. Skip sounds good right about now.

Crona is the antagonist, not the protagonist. Soul Eater is pretty hilariously deranged though, no arguments there.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Actually, I am looking forward to this. You'd think Blue Team would have it thanks to their literal tank, but Red Team has neutralized that pretty easily before with Donut's long-range precision grenade throws, so it'll probably come down to an actual fight between the individual members. And Church's aim is so bad I've long suspected he's literally under the effects of Aasimov's 1st law and just hasn't realized it (which Halo AIs can override fairly easily... but not while fragmented, like Church is). OTOH, Caboose is stupidly strong, which might be enough to make up for that.

Also, I wonder what season they're going with for RvB. Looks like the 1st 5 (the Blood Gulch Chronicles) based on the clip they showed, which is probably the most fair, since Blue team picks up all sorts of stuff later in the series that would give them an enormous edge... most notably Agent Washington, who would basically guarantee their victory.

[HolyDraconus]

Eh, I'd say that Divine Slaying might have made this a closer fight if it had been taken into account.

...Also, there was one occasion where an insane Venom was able to overpower the Juggernaut. Not just stop him but send him in another direction.

The Juggernaut was strong enough to match The Green Scar during World War Hulk. The is persona strong enough to shake planets apart by walking on them.

So, by the transitive property that Screw Attack loves so much... I don't know how it compares to Crona's greatest feat of strength but overpowering the Juggernaut has gotta be up there.

If we go full "Hal Jordon" treatment on Venom then there's regenerating from small scraps+plant control(from Groot) and planet-destroying blasts of concentrated sunlight(from Carol Danvers) as both were previous hosts of Venom.

And the combined powers of Ghost Rider and Red Hulk, if you wanna get Silly with this Hal Jorden treatment.
Eh, he's not DC though, so they aint going that far for him. And stopping Juggernaut stopped being a feat when Jean did it. Solo.

[TeChameleon]

...Also, there was one occasion where an insane Venom was able to overpower the Juggernaut. Not just stop him but send him in another direction.

Wasn't Venom massively amped up on Toxic Mercury when he fought Juggernaut, though?

[Rater202]

Wasn't Venom massively amped up on Toxic Mercury when he fought Juggernaut, though?

That drove it insane but wasn't said to power it up IIRC.

Even if it had, if that had empowered it, that empowerment would have been permanent due to how symbiote biology works.

And finally: See them taking a feat of strength that Billy Batson did while at least 100 times as strong as normal as his normal strength and it being the reason he beat Captain Marvel. Temporary or permanent means nothing.

[Dragonus45]

Yea I think he was, and like a lot of the powerups that supers get it's never clear if that stayed or left. And on the subject of his feats in the angry god carnage stuff he really didn't have many, that arc was a long list of insane bull**** carnage did more then anything else and there is enough argument on how long codes stuff lasts, combined with how recent it actually was, that it's very difficult to really place how much of that should carry over to venom.

[TeChameleon]

That drove it insane but wasn't said to power it up IIRC.

Even if it had, if that had empowered it, that empowerment would have been permanent due to how symbiote biology works.

I remember that storyline clearly- Eddie ran into the toxic mercury, went bonkers and got a massive strength boost, it wore off, he decided he wasn't a fan of being quite that nuts, then ran into the Juggernaut, got crushed, and went back to the toxic mercury for the temporary strength boost again. So not a permanent empowerment, especially since it seemed to mess up the symbiote's shapeshifting, with two (involuntary) extra arms and a bunch of screwed up mini-Venom heads sprouting all over his shoulders and upper torso. It was a weird storyline.

[McNum]

Not a lot of talk about the Halloween Werewolf Showdown (https://youtu.be/eGWYkn5as1E) here, huh?

One is a Darkstalker. One is not.

If you didn't guess Jon Talbain was going to win this one, you haven't kept up with how silly Darkstalkers get. Though I think this is the first win where the loser managed to disembowel the winner and still got killed for it.

But again, one is a Darkstalker, one is not. This one was never in doubt.

It did have my new favorite absolutely silly transitive property calculation for a Death Battle, though. "Ki enough to move all of Ancient Egypt." And then they calculate the total mass of Ancient Egypt.
Next time is still Red vs. Blue. Blue still has a tank. Not really interested in that one.

[Traab]

This battle was full of the stuff I hate most. Transitive property all the way down. They couldnt just stick with the stuff each character actually did, oh no, they had to go "Well he is on the same level as this person who did x crazy thing, therefore they are capable of the same feat!" I dont even think they needed to do it as just the stuff the winner actually did was enough to justify his victory. They made it clear he was at LEAST as strong, even tougher, and had more skill. Then they tossed on "is strong enough to lift 300 aircraft carriers" because some other character had a strength feat that stupid. Bleh.

[McNum]

When it comes to Darkstalkers, it is amusing that Morrigan, the queen of crossovers, hasn't been in one yet.

Though I am not entirely sure who would be able to fight her and have a thematic link. Morrigan is an A-class Darkstalker, if I remember right. And a succubus. You'd need some demon, angel, or demon hunter to get a good opponent for her, and Dante already fought Bayonetta, so the whole bats, magic, and ordnance thing Morrigan can do is a bit old for him already.

[Forum Explorer]

This battle was full of the stuff I hate most. Transitive property all the way down. They couldnt just stick with the stuff each character actually did, oh no, they had to go "Well he is on the same level as this person who did x crazy thing, therefore they are capable of the same feat!" I dont even think they needed to do it as just the stuff the winner actually did was enough to justify his victory. They made it clear he was at LEAST as strong, even tougher, and had more skill. Then they tossed on "is strong enough to lift 300 aircraft carriers" because some other character had a strength feat that stupid. Bleh.

Yeah, it's particularly bad since it's not even 'fought against someone who has that ability', just 'in the same category as them'. Particularly since that category has 10 000 individuals in it. They won't be all that equal in strength.

[Traab]

Yeah, it's particularly bad since it's not even 'fought against someone who has that ability', just 'in the same category as them'. Particularly since that category has 10 000 individuals in it. They won't be all that equal in strength.

Exactly. It would have been less annoying if say, they had pointed out another werewolf who did something insanely powerful as at least that MIGHT apply, but this is like saying, "Werewolves and succubi are both mythological creatures, therefore werewolves can seduce just about anything and need sexual energy to survive." They were comparing two entirely different SPECIES of monster and saying that because they are on a similar power ranking their abilities are equal. Thats so fricking DUMB.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

It'd be less annoying if they phrased it as "this person is on the same level as X/has fought X, and thus can clearly deal with up to X level shenanigans". Because that actually makes a lot of sense. (And they do phrase it that way when they use fully human contestants, like how Leon Kennedy beat a mech because he regularly fights and beats giant monsters and so is capable of beating people with that level of superstrength, therefore that level of superstrength isn't enough to beat him. This makes their insistence on phrasing it as "has" X level of superstrength/superspeed/etc. for superhuman characters weird.)

[hungrycrow]

When are they going to use the "character X has fought character Y on death battle, therefore they are at least as strong as Y" argument.

[Rater202]

When are they going to use the "character X has fought character Y on death battle, therefore they are at least as strong as Y" argument.

"We had Terry fight Miquel, and Miquel is worthy of Mjolnir, so clearly Bruce, who mentored Terry, can defeat Thor..."

"You didn't let Miguel use Mjolnir. In fact, you misunderstood how Mjolnir works and ignored that Miguel's entire original canon was built up to him inheriting Mjolnir..."

"ScrewAttack has Spoken!"

[Lemmy]

Well... There's a big reason one of the past threads is named "Not Even Internally Consistent".

[Anteros]

I'm mildly interested in a Red vs Blue match up. It should be a stomp for Blue but it should be entertaining regardless.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Okay, yeah, giving Agent Texas to the Blue Team pretty much cinches it for them. Red Team has neutralized the tank before (with just a single grenade, from halfway across the canyon no less), but they've only ever beaten Tex by getting the drop on her. She's literally gone up against all of them simultaneously with nothing but her fists and still won.

[Dragonus45]

Okay, yeah, giving Agent Texas to the Blue Team pretty much cinches it for them. Red Team has neutralized the tank before (with just a single grenade, from halfway across the canyon no less), but they've only ever beaten Tex by getting the drop on her. She's literally gone up against all of them simultaneously with nothing but her fists and still won.

Isn't her being like cosmically doomed to failure a plot point about her though?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Isn't her being like cosmically doomed to failure a plot point about her though?

Yeah, but that's specifically after "almost reaching her goal". If Caboose, Tucker, and possibly Sheila can't mop up the one surviving Red Team member I will be very surprised. (Church is absent from that list because a) he's either 3-Laws compliant and can't hurt humans, or so bad a shot it makes no difference, and b) he is almost certainly going to get team-killed by Caboose).

EDIT: Actually, depending on the scenario, Red Team could pull this off. In close quarters, I can see the rest of Blue Team get isolated and loosing to Reds in 1v1 or small group fights while Tex is off killing Reds in a different location. But if they drop them each in their own base in Blood Gulch (or for that matter, any place with enough open space for a tank to be effective) I can't see Tex (possibly supported by Sheila) being unable to take out most of Red Team before they wipe out Blue Team.

EDIT II: Should be pretty fun to watch, though, even if I think the conclusion is foregone.

[Rynjin]

Even without Tex, I figured the odds would be pretty stacked. Tucker is a one man army with his energy sword by a certain point, and Caboose is stronger than a heavy duty forklift. Meanwhile Simmons and Grif are incompetent, and Donut is a borderline pacifist. That leaves Church as the only dead weight on the Blue team, and Sarge as the only competent combatant on the Red team.

[Anteros]

Lopez isn't completely useless, but yeah. All of the heavy hitters have been part of Blue team. Red team basically has no accomplishments.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Red Team actually has a decent record against freelancers... when they have the element of surprise. They've beaten both Tex (in the first season, so that could and probably should be regarded as Early Installment Weirdness) and Washington (in a legitimately impressive display of competence). Simmons and Doc also managed to knock the Meta out of that same fight. The final fight against the Meta was also mostly Red Team (admittedly softened up by both Texas and Washington, though he did have a regeneration armor ability), and the plan that actually beat him was all them. Of course, take away the element of surprise and the record speaks for itself: lots of humiliating losses.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any time Blue Team went up against a freelancer-level opponent and won without backup from Red Team and/or a freelancer of their own. Wyoming might count; Tucker was able to punch through his 'save-scumming' ability and foil his plans, but all the copies he left behind soon had Blue Team on the ropes again. (Although I'm a few seasons behind the show; maybe something to that effect has happened since Season 14). But they have a freelancer backing them up for the Death Battle -- and not just any freelancer, Agent Texas, who has beaten them before and is unlikely to be caught off guard until her fate catches up with her. So the point is rather moot.

[Traab]

Soooo that was a thing. Blue wins. turns out having a tank and being strong enough to hurl tanks, offsets being idiots.

However next time batgirl versus spidergwen? I know batgirl, dont know anything about spider gwen. So no real opinion here other than if spidergwen has the power of spiderman, batgirl is probably going to die. She doesnt even have the batgod plot armor to protect her.

[McNum]

Unless Barbara can pull off some major new feats, I only see a repeat of Batman vs. Spider-Man here. Spider-Gwen is a legit Spider-person, she scales to Spider-Man.

Sorry Batgirl, but I'm expecting a stomp.

[Rater202]

Ghost Spider has all powers the same as Spider-Man, except her spider-sense is less reliable.

She's not as much o an egghead as Peter, but she can jump dimensions at will and she kept her symbiote.

Gwen Stacy 65 isn't just her worlds Spider-Man, she's also her World's Venom.

So in Gwen's world, the Cindy Moon of that world was almost bit by a radioactive spider, but ti was squished at the last minute. After finding out that it might have caused mutation, she felt robbed ever since.

Then Jesse Drew, an astronaut, gets bitten by spider-like aliens while on the moon and almost killed by the unique isotopes in their venom until Cidy studies him and the spiders.

Jesse is saved, and a bunch of "power-ups" that does him with the same radiation that was in the spiders gives him spider-powers.

Using what she learned from Jesse and the Moon Spiders, she genetically engineered a hybrid spider and releases it to bite Gwen as a test to give herself superpowers and also leaks the existence of other derivatives from the Spider, which she gives to Peter Parker 65 who uses it to become the Lizard.

The Lizard formula in Gwen's World is more or less identical to the Main universe one, but it bonds to you molecularly, and when you regenerate your parts come back stronger.

Eventually, after side effects from the Lizard formula coupled with his having gotten the crap beaten out of him by a Gwen who didn't know he was in thereafter he went feral killed the Peter Parker of this world, the serum was appropriated and improved by a number of people before an almost perfect version was used by Harry Osborn to become the Green Goblin and come after Gwen(without knowing who was behind the mask), as he believed her to have murdered Peter Parker.

Note: In this universe "Green Goblin" was a roleplaying character that Peter created for Harry when Peter, Harry, and Gwen would play Dungeons and Dragons knock-off as kids.

Eventually, Harry loses control of the formula and starts mutating into the strongest lizard man yet, but he's able to retain control of himself and after reconciling with Gwen runs off into hiding.

Cut to a Spider-Crossover where someone(Cindy Moon 65) is stealing tech from Earth 616 and selling it on Earth 65. Long story short, Cindy injects Gwen with Nanomachines that nuetralize the special radiation, and, much like Peter of Earrth 616, while her DNA is altered she needs that radiation to fuel most of her powers.

As stop gab, she's given some of Jesse Drew's "Power-Ups" that temporarily overpower the nanomachines with a big burst of rads, but the permanent solution comes when Oscorp scientists discover that because the Lizard Formula and the "power-ups" are both derived from the moon spider- that they great to each other.

The net result is a living symbiote substance that has all of the regenerative powers of the Lizard formula without the mutation or the insanity, and that is also constantly generating a steady source of the isotope that fuels Gwen's powers.

The problem is that most organisms bonded to the symbiote will quickly be cooked to death.

Matt Murdock(Who is the King-Pin in Gwen's world) uses this and his knowledge of Harry's whereabouts to manipulate Gwen and Norman Osborn(who here is corrupt but not evil and loves his son) to essentially get Gwen under his control.

she uses about half a dozen "power-ups" to leach the perfected Lizard/"Goblin" formula out of Harry, where they combine with the Isotopes and from "The Venom" which bonds to Gwen and then she's just Venom for a bit until she gains full control over the Symbiote.

Gwen's Venom doens't really have a guiding intelligence, it's just... The metaphor used in the comics is that if you're at the grocery store debating whether to buy the white bread or spend the extra on whole wheat, the Venom is the little voice in the back of your head whispering "cake."

Take the elevator or the stares? "Couch."

Eventually, Gwen after going through some crap gets it under control enough to resist the Id impulses from the suit and starts teaching it to be good.

Initially, "Gwenom" was just Gwen's normal powers with the Lizard's regenerative powers and an added weakness to fire or sound, but that weakness was later revealed to be psychosomatic: Murdock put the idea of them in Gwen's head so she, and the symbiote, reacted like they were vulnerable when it the fact that are no more susceptible than they are to any other attack.

And over time Gwen's gotten in the habit of sending tiny spiders made of her Venom out to help her scan an area in big swarms, and while she doesn't do it often in Spider-Gheddon she generates bladed tentacles to fight off the Inheritors(Inheritors feed on the life force of totems, like Spider-People, but symbiotes mess them up something fierce.)

She's also got the "make clothes out of my costume" thing that we see with Mainline Venom(it's actually implied that she's just walking around Naked and having the Symbiote cover her up at least one) and the covers of King in Black: Gwenom vs Carnage show her in "Gwenom" mode with claws and extended limbs so she might be getting stretchy.

so basically, Gwen is Spider-Man but with a super-advanced healing factor that makes her stronger every time she recovers from injury(or at least, makes her costume stronger every time it recovers from damage, it's not clear if the Venom gives Gwen the regen or if it's just the Venom that regens) and can stab you from several feet away./

Against physically weaker Batman that doesn't have as many gadgets and doesn't have the plot Armor that gives Bruce so many bullcrap outlier feats that mae him seem stronger than he's supposed to be.

Gwen can't lose if they play this fairly.

[HolyDraconus]

Unless Barbara can pull off some major new feats, I only see a repeat of Batman vs. Spider-Man here. Spider-Gwen is a legit Spider-person, she scales to Spider-Man.

Sorry Batgirl, but I'm expecting a stomp.

Well, to not make it a complete stomp, she's dodged gunfire and lightning before. And tossed an adult tiger while it was jumping at her. She fought on par with Black Canary, who's stated to be better than Wonder Woman, who can supposedly stomp Big Blue and the Bat. And she's tanked some explosions and a building falling on her, so there's that. Just off of that little tidbit, Gwen has her beat soundly in raw power. Tossing a tiger isn't much compared to holding a building, which Gwen scales to. I BELIEVE that Gwen has her beat in pure speed too. But that combat experience though. She reacted on instinct and clocked the Bat, so her being a better fighter than him has SOME ground to stand on, and coupled that with her reaction speed she could steal this. The ever present Spidey Sense is the only thing I'm seeing keeping this from being fair, and Batgirl doesn't really DO the whole super ninja thing like the rest of the Bat Family, so its not really useful for sussing that out. I can see in some situations Batgirl taking this.

[TeChameleon]

... yeah, unless hacking is somehow involved, Babs is... not really a good matchup for Spider-Gwen. Some gadgets, decent martial arts skills, and absolute computer wizardry are not a match for a 10 ton deadlift, superhuman agility and reflexes, combat precognition, the ability to leap five stories plus, and webbing.

[Anteros]

This is just another fight that misses the point of the characters. Batgirl would never fight a superior opponent like Gwen head to head to start with. She'd melt away, research, and take her by surprise. With Deathbattle's rules that all characters have to be idiotlusted at all times, this is a stomp against her.

[SKarious]

Speaking of sneak attacks, I don't know Gwen very well, but she seems to have some sort of personal teleporter / dimensional portal gadget. Can she use it to launch surprise attacks or is it only for multiversal cross-travel?

[HolyDraconus]

... yeah, unless hacking is somehow involved, Babs is... not really a good matchup for Spider-Gwen. Some gadgets, decent martial arts skills, and absolute computer wizardry are not a match for a 10 ton deadlift, superhuman agility and reflexes, combat precognition, the ability to leap five stories plus, and webbing.

its been inferred quite heavily that Babs CAN beat Batman, so much so that she tied with Black Canary, who CAN.... in a straight up fist fight. Her fighting prowess and instinct is high. And her reaction and agility is up there, if she's able to tango with DC's best martial artists.

[TeChameleon]

its been inferred quite heavily that Babs CAN beat Batman, so much so that she tied with Black Canary, who CAN.... in a straight up fist fight. Her fighting prowess and instinct is high. And her reaction and agility is up there, if she's able to tango with DC's best martial artists.

Ah. So they're trying the Returned Barry Allen approach, where they give the attributes of previous popular character (Wally West Flash and Cassandra Cain Batgirl, in this instance) to the one they want to have the mantle in hopes of placating the fans of the displaced character. "See? She's just like the Batgirl you like, so you shouldn't be complaining!"

*sigh*

That being said, this still feels like a grievous mismatch.

[SKarious]

So, Batgirl blurb is up.
Wait a minute. Wasn't Barbara the one who got *spoiler*ed in The kiiling Joke? Did they retcon it out of existence?

[Rater202]

So, Batgirl blurb is up.
Wait a minute. Wasn't Barbara the one who got *spoiler*ed in The killing Joke? Did they retcon it out of existence?

In the New 52 they had her paralysis be temporary and she eventually recovered. Which of course, completly undermined pretty much everything done with Barbara since Killing Joke.

Yeah.

[Lemmy]

It's really sad... Because she's the least interesting Batgirl, but was unique and supercool as Oracle.
To this day, this is one of the New 52 changes that most irk me.

[Iamyourking]

This Time:
To, I'm sure, nobody's surprise Gwen wins. The answer to DC always beating Marvel isn't to put characters on different tiers of power up against each other.

Next Time:
Sanji from One Piece versus Rock Lee from Naruto.

[Traab]

Duh. Anybody expecting any other outcome was kidding themself. Of course spider gwen won

Aww man, i was hoping for deku and rock lee I dont think sanji is going to live to see the all blue. Especially not if they once again decide to bring naruto and sasuke feats into this for some stupid reason. I admit to not being certain what sanjis current top feats are, but I dont think he is really a landscape altering damage dealer is he?

[Rater202]

Anyone else remember the time Madara was going on a rant to the United Ninja Army and Lee was just like "nope" and kicked him clean in half.

Like, not the Gai thing, I've been accused of confusing Gai's Night Gai attack for Lee. It was after Naruto gave everyone some Nine-Tails power to revitalize them but before he had nine of his friends jump into the Kurama Construct and help him Rasengan the Ten Tails.

Related: Lee's first ever use of Ninjustu was doing a perfect Rasengan. Even if we assume that Naruto was helping everyone pull off the technique somehow, Lee still went from 0 to 100 on his first try.

By the Boruto era, Lee is a full fledged Jonin. Not a special Jonin.

While both officially hold the same level of authority, there's a distinction between a special jonin and a proper jonin: In order to be a proper jonin, you not only need a certain level of skill, power, and experience, you also need to have a basic level of proficiency in multiple skills, including Ninjutsu and Genjutsu.

A special Jonin is "you arne't techncially qualified to be a Jonin but we trust that you are capable of handling that kind of responsibility so we're giving you that responsibility as well as the authority that comes with it." Special Jonin are usually specialists in some field: Anko and Ibiki are Torture and interrogation specialists, Ebisu specializes ironically enough in basic techniques and education, and so on.

So for Lee to be a full-fledged Jonin, that means he must have at some point overcome natural lack of talent in order to achieve at leas the bare minimum level of mastery.

So... You can argue that Lee should be able to do the Rasengan.

Incidentally, it's fanon that Lee has some disability. Lee just, has no natural talent of advantages to the point that he really wasn't cut out for being a ninja.

Then he worked his ass off and in a year became a taijutsu master able to throw down with, and be the first person ever to physically harm, a Jinchuriki.

Anyone who complains that Naruto is a series that proclaims that "hard work is more important than talent" but then shows people coasting by on talent isn't paying attention...

In more ways than one: IF you're paying attention, Neji is only as big a threat as he is, not becuase of the talent or his "fate and a prodigy" that he's boasting about, but becuase he stole a technique from the main house and busted his chops learning it. And Kakashi explicitly points out tha tonly a genius could make the kind of improvement that Lee did in such a small amount of time or master the Inner gates to the level that Lee had at his age. The lesson from the Chunin exams is not "genius is worthless, work hard," it's "there are different kinds of geniuses but you need to put in the effort to make anything of it."

But that requires people to think critically and actually pay attention. IT's so much easier to shout "broken Aesop, Naruto didn't work hard he just used the power he got when he was born herp derp look, it turns out he was born special."

Bitch, the first chapter of the Manga said that the circumstances of NAruto's birth were important and that he had a lot of potential.

[hungrycrow]

Not sure how speed and strength feats match up, but current Sanji can fly, turn invisible, and sense the immediate future.

[Kitten Champion]

I admittedly only saw/read a bit of Boruto - to the end of the first major story arc really - but there was very, very little of Rock Lee in that. Apparently there hasn't been much of him since either, which seems to seriously vex his fans if Youtube is any indication.

So, yeah, I'd go with Sanji. I think Lee has the abstract potential here with what he could do but Sanji has been out there participating in the ever-escalating and generally quite ludicrous One Piece fights for... what? Twenty-three years? Is this still 2020 or have I seen the Tears of Time?

Plus he can light his leg on fire just by kicking - that's in the high-excess of hypersonic speed - and can run on air while making sonic booms behind him. I'm not clear on how the air-running operates on a scientific level, but the fire-leg kicking thing is just strength I think.

[Rynjin]

An interesting matchup for once, which is nice.

I'm inclined to give it to Lee, largely because he scales to Guy, but I could see it going either way.

[Traab]

I admittedly only saw/read a bit of Boruto - to the end of the first major story arc really - but there was very, very little of Rock Lee in that. Apparently there hasn't been much of him since either, which seems to seriously vex his fans if Youtube is any indication.

So, yeah, I'd go with Sanji. I think Lee has the abstract potential here with what he could do but Sanji has been out there participating in the ever-escalating and generally quite ludicrous One Piece fights for... what? Twenty-three years? Is this still 2020 or have I seen the Tears of Time?

Plus he can light his leg on fire just by kicking - that's in the high-excess of hypersonic speed - and can run on air while making sonic booms behind him. I'm not clear on how the air-running operates on a scientific level, but the fire-leg kicking thing is just strength I think.

Gates lee can do the fire leg/fist thing too. And in universe, its been like 3 years that sanji has been seriously fighting and most of that was time skip training with the okama kenpo masters. Experience wise sanji is older, but they have been fighting for real about the same amount of time, maybe more for lee because he had a years head start on naruto. And thats just relying on the naruto series, not boruto in which case he has probably 15-20 years total experience as an active ninja and is older than sanji who is 21. Lee may not be able to sky walk as such unless he goes heavy gates, but he can leap super high and practically float while doing his attack runs.

[Kitten Champion]

Gates lee can do the fire leg/fist thing too.

Yeah, but Sanji can just kind of do it with no discernable risk or... effort.



And in universe, its been like 3 years that sanji has been seriously fighting and most of that was time skip training with the okama kenpo masters. Experience wise sanji is older, but they have been fighting for real about the same amount of time, maybe more for lee because he had a years head start on naruto. And thats just relying on the naruto series, not boruto in which case he has probably 15-20 years total experience as an active ninja and is older than sanji who is 21. Lee may not be able to sky walk as such unless he goes heavy gates, but he can leap super high and practically float while doing his attack runs.

In-universe? Sure, post-Boruto Rock Lee is going to be more experienced than Sanji, but out-of-universe Rock Lee doesn't get nearly the limelight or battle opportunities as Sanji gets. Nor does he get casual moments of ridiculousness like this --

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/6/60/Anti-Manner_Kick_Course.png/revision/latest?cb=20130420055827

There are so many occasions where Death Battle can take something like that and estimate Sanji's strength to absurd levels, whereas with Rock Lee there's a lot of pointing out how strong he could - or should - be and much less of him throwing bears into space or whatever.

[TeChameleon]

Sanji's burning leg thing isn't a muscle-power/speed thing, especially as he's done it while not moving... there's something about his 'burning passion' or something equally ridiculous that ignites it.

This is an interesting matchup; the call I'd make without thinking about it too much is that Lee has the advantage in speed, strength and all-around power, but Sanji has a more flexible tool kit with which to combat that.

[Forum Explorer]

I think Sanji roughly scales to Luffy and Zoro, so he's got plenty of feats in comparison as well.

[ben-zayb]

Interesting. If Lee was required to have basic jutsu proficiency to be an official jonin, that would mean a basic henge jutsu would let him beat Sanji eventually.

Naruto had a thing for sort-of-but-not-really surpassing the previous generation, so Lee being strong enough to warp space by punching even without going 8 Gates can be considered (I don't follow Boruto so I don't know if it was demonstrated that he already did). What I've been told was that at least some characters in Boruto were much weaker than they were in Naruto because of the long period of peace ridding the necessity of regular training. Then again, Rock Lee's the type of person to regularly maintain peak form through continuously training as a personal goal.

In terms of reaction time, Sanji is supposed to have observation haki to anticipate attacks, but a similar advantage didn't end up being useful foy Sasuke back when he wasn't as fast as Lee. Then again, Sanji's managed to dodge an attack from Katakuri, who has so much observation haki mastery that it's functionally an immediate-future precognition. Knowing DB, they would make a point of Katakuri being much better than Luffy in all stats, and then scale Sanji likewise.

Rock Lee's demonstrable speed feats even pre-timeskip was second to none, but I wouldn't be surprised if DB comes up with calculations for Sanji in an attempt to close the gap. One thing that comes to mind is Zoro's very early Whiskey Peak movement speed feat, and how Zoro and Sanji are scaled very close to each other.

One Piece characters tend to have demonstrably ridiculous feats of strength, regularly effortlessly yeeting gigantic creatures like in the image above. So far, Sanji's best feat has been able to do that to a 80m giant fishman. Lee has less visually impressive feats in that regard, but I wouldn't be surprised if DB can match Lee by scaling him to Gai/Madara/Naruto, or calculating the strength needed to regularly move while wearing his weights.

In terms of durability, I can't remember anything outstanding coming from Lee unless DB again scales visually unimpressive attacks against Lee to demonstrably powerful building/city/mountain busting attacks. Sanji, like many One Piece characters, casually tank hits from gigantic opponents like sea kings and literal giants even early on, to no lingering injuries or side effects afterwards.

[Traab]

Keep in mind though that as far as naruto universe characters go, db is OBSESSED with bringing in that moon buster feat into every battle even when it requires contortions that would make cirque du soleil professionals blush. They did it for GAI, so its literally one step further to proclaim that lee is also theoretically capable of outperforming literal moon destroying feats of strength and therefore sanji is dead meat.

[hungrycrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-74O7QTgRI
So Sanji is in the 'moves fast enough he basically teleports' range. Lee opening all eight gates is probably faster, but maybe not magnitudes faster?

[Traab]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-74O7QTgRI
So Sanji is in the 'moves fast enough he basically teleports' range. Lee opening all eight gates is probably faster, but maybe not magnitudes faster?

Lee has been doing that since he was a genin with 1 year experience. Being faster than the eye can see against someone who specifically has eyes that are way superior and effectively works as observation haki, AND is expecting the attack, and thats with no gates at all. When he opens his gates he is even more ludicrous. Moving so fast the eye cant follow it is actually a pretty standard skill for naruto verse fighters. In the case of lee its special in that its pure physical prowess, not a ninjutsu effect

[Forum Explorer]

Lee has been doing that since he was a genin with 1 year experience. Being faster than the eye can see against someone who specifically has eyes that are way superior and effectively works as observation haki, AND is expecting the attack, and thats with no gates at all. When he opens his gates he is even more ludicrous. Moving so fast the eye cant follow it is actually a pretty standard skill for naruto verse fighters. In the case of lee its special in that its pure physical prowess, not a ninjutsu effect

That's explicitly a case of Sasuke's body can't keep up with his vision. He can see all of Lee's movements when he activates Sharigan, but gets punched in the face anyways because he still can't react fast enough. Besides Lee helpfully pointing out exactly what is happening, we see stuff like Sasuke putting up his guard, and Lee just hitting him somewhere else.


Also that clip of Sanji's was way more impressive. He moved so fast that no one could tell he moved in the first place. It wasn't just moving faster than the eye could see, it was moving so fast it looked like he didn't move at all. If Lee had been moving that fast in the fight against Sasuke, than it would've looked like Sasuke getting pummeled while Lee just stood there and stared at him.

[Lemmy]

I don't know where you got the "doesn't look like he even moved" part.

The few people actually looking clearly noticed Sanji's movement, even if they couldn't follow it. And it seems like most onlookers where just normal muggles with no special training or powers.

[Traab]

I don't know where you got the "doesn't look like he even moved" part.

The few people actually looking clearly noticed Sanji's movement, even if they couldn't follow it. And it seems like most onlookers where just normal muggles with no special training or powers.

This. Also, sasuke lost track of lee several times in their little matchup. Lee was even flexing on him while explaining how outmatched he was by casually vanishing and appearing behind him to continue explaining how outmatched he is. And again, thats after a single year of training and no gates and a buttload of weight slowing him down. Which is an important point, lee is so fast he is able to move faster than the eye can see while wearing probably hundreds of pounds of weight on his legs, going by the crater they left when he dropped them.

[Dragonus45]

Actually yea, I cannot wait to see what the math on his weights is from crater size and drop height.

[McNum]

The Season Finale has been announced for December 27th.

https://twitter.com/DEATHBATTLE/status/1335645183954747393

In the green and very angry corner, hailing from Marvel Comics: THE HULK
In the green and very angry corner, hailing from the Dragon Ball Super movie of the same name: BROLY

Oh boy. That's going to be a match.

I'm leaning Hulk because comics are silly at times, but Broly could take it on speed since he has more ranged options than Hulk.

Anyway, time to get mad, get green, and get punchy.

[Traab]

Didnt they do that for one minute melee or one of the other death match type shows?

[Rater202]

On the one hand, the Hulk can't die, not permanently. If the fight is at night he'll just get right back up. His strength is theoretically infinite, depending on which personality is in charge and how angry he is.

On the other hand, every incarnation of Broly is exponentially greater than the Hulk is and has a much better-ranged game.

While Devil Hulk is stronger than Green Scar, he doesn't have any feats greater than shaking a planet apart with his footsteps so they're probably gonna go with that.

Broly... Super Broly and SSJB Gogeta fighting literally tore a whole through reality and left them briefly stranded in an acid trip dimension of some kind, which wasn't just creative licenses becuase Gogeta takes a minute to look around with a "what the hell expression" on his face.

If this was anyone else I'd give it to Broly but this is Deathbattles.

Unless there Marvel Bias counteracts their Dragon Ball Bias

[HolyDraconus]

The Season Finale has been announced for December 27th.

https://twitter.com/DEATHBATTLE/status/1335645183954747393

In the green and very angry corner, hailing from Marvel Comics: THE HULK
In the green and very angry corner, hailing from the Dragon Ball Super movie of the same name: BROLY

Oh boy. That's going to be a match.

I'm leaning Hulk because comics are silly at times, but Broly could take it on speed since he has more ranged options than Hulk.

Anyway, time to get mad, get green, and get punchy.

Its going to go one of two ways: Hulk becomes composite Hulk for the win, or he loses outright. Composite Hulk is absurd with his feats and its honestly a no brainer in that situation. Regular Hulk loses this though: Since Super was listed for the version of Broly, you dealing with a guy that casually broke through dimensions while fighting, stomped Super Saiyan God and SSGSS, which at this time was confirmed to be, according to DB themselves, capable of popping the universe if they aren't careful, as well as ragdolled Frieza. Without SS2.

[Kitten Champion]

Admittedly, my entire knowledge of Broly is watching the Abridged Series' version of his movie, but still... he destroyed a galaxy. Obliterating what would be thousands of millions of stars and planets in their entirety, by himself. While I know Hulk has some absurd feats - that's part of the appeal of the character - I don't think he destroyed a galaxy.

Then again, I think Hulk mildly hurt Superman in a non-canon fan-voted cross-over, and thus is probably stronger than Goku.

[Forum Explorer]

Admittedly, my entire knowledge of Broly is watching the Abridged Series' version of his movie, but still... he destroyed a galaxy. Obliterating what would be thousands of millions of stars and planets in their entirety, by himself. While I know Hulk has some absurd feats - that's part of the appeal of the character - I don't think he destroyed a galaxy.

Then again, I think Hulk mildly hurt Superman in a non-canon fan-voted cross-over, and thus is probably stronger than Goku.

I imagine they are going to use Dragon Ball Super Broly, and I don't think he destroyed a galaxy, but I never did watch his movie.

[Rynjin]

I imagine they are going to use Dragon Ball Super Broly, and I don't think he destroyed a galaxy, but I never did watch his movie.

He didn't, but he is canonically many, many orders of magnitude stronger.

[Forum Explorer]

He didn't, but he is canonically many, many orders of magnitude stronger.

...what? That doesn't seem to make sense. He's canonically much stronger than the version of him that doesn't technically exist? I imagine that must be an author statement.

[Rynjin]

...what? That doesn't seem to make sense. He's canonically much stronger than the version of him that doesn't technically exist? I imagine that must be an author statement.

It's simple comparison. Everything in the movies is consistent with things that are happening at the time in the series in regards to power levels. Broly was defeated by a sufficiently amped up Super Saiyan Goku; not even Super Saiyan 2 (since it takes place before Super Saiyan 2 was even a thing, about a week before the final battle with Cell). Even if you claim it's because he has multiple Super Saiyans' energy at once, he has at most the equivalent of regular Super Saiyan power x4.

We know the exact power multipliers of Z's Super Saiyan forms; Super Saiyan is x50 power, 2 is double that, and 3 is double THAT (for a total of x400, or 8 times the strength of Super Saiyan).

This tells us that AT BEST, Goku was half the strength of Super Saiyan 3 during this fight with Broly.

We do not know exactly the strength of Super Saiyan Blue, but it is significantly stronger than Super Saiyan 3, by a magnitude that is effectively infinite; Blue is a bigger boost than God, and God is about 70% as powerful as Beerus, who is strong enough to flex nuts against 3, which is about all we know for certain.

Combine this with Super Broly going toe to toe with Gogeta (a fusion) in Blue form. Fusions are roughly a multiplier of "however much the other guy is". Eg. if Goku and Vegeta were both 1000 Power Level, they would be 1 million as Gogeta.

Hence "orders of magnitude stronger". There's no WoG needed, just extrapolations form what is shown in the material available.

Doing a quick search, because I forgot to before, we know what OG Broly's power level was thanks to a magazine (V-Jump): it's 1.4 Billion. We also know from the same magazine that Super Gogeta (Gogeta in regular Super Saiyan) is 2.5 Billion in Fusion Reborn (which takes place during the Buu Saga). So Gogeta is nearly twice the strength of OG Broly before even pouring on Super Saiyan 2 or 3.

TL;DR: Buu saga numbers big, Super numbers EVEN BIGGERER, Cell saga numbers small (in comparison).

[Forum Explorer]

It's simple comparison. Everything in the movies is consistent with things that are happening at the time in the series in regards to power levels. Broly was defeated by a sufficiently amped up Super Saiyan Goku; not even Super Saiyan 2. Even if you claim it's because he has multiple Super Saiyans' energy at once, he has at most the equivalent of regular Super Saiyan power x4.

We know the exact power multipliers of Z's Super Saiyan forms; Super Saiyan is x50 power, 2 is double that, and 3 is double THAT (for a total of 8 times the strength of Super Siayan).

This tells us that AT BEST, Goku was half the strength of Super Saiyan 3 during this fight with Broly.

We do not know exactly the strength of Super Saiyan Blue, but it is significantly stronger than Super Saiyan 3, by a magnitude that is effectively infinite; Blue is a bigger boost than God, and God is about 70% as powerful as Beerus, who is strong enough to flex nuts against 3, which is about all we know for certain.

Combine this with Super Broly going toe to toe with Gogeta (a fusion) in Blue form. Fusions are roughly a multiplier of "however much the other guy is". Eg. if Goku and Vegeta were both 1000 Power Level, they would be 1 million as Gogeta.

Hence "orders of magnitude stronger". There's no WoG needed, just extrapolations form what is shown in the material available.

Doing a quick search, because I forgot to before, we know what OG Broly's power level was thanks to a magazine: it's 1.4 Billion. We also know from the same magazine that Super Gogeta (Gogeta in regular Super Saiyan) is 2.5 Billion in Fusion Reborn (which takes place during the Buu Saga). So Gogeta is nearly twice the strength of OG Broly before even pouring on Super Saiyan 2 or 3.

TL;DR: Buu saga numbers big, Super numbers EVEN BIGGERER.

But that's not what canon says. Canon says that Goku beat Broly on Earth with Super Sayain Blue. He never beat him any other way in canon. Canonically, South Galaxy was never destroyed, or if it was, it wasn't Broly who did it. The DBZ movie Broly never existed according to canon. Only the Super version.

You can't use any feats from that movie (or rather you shouldn't) because it isn't canon with the current Broly. Your logic makes sense, but basically that Broly is as canon as the one that's married to Princess Trunks.

Though I will say that Super is weird with power levels. A bullet manages to bruise Goku, when way back in Dragon Ball someone could shoot him while he's sleeping and he wouldn't even notice.

[Rater202]

...what? That doesn't seem to make sense. He's canonically much stronger than the version of him that doesn't technically exist? I imagine that must be an author statement.In Dragon Ball Super: Broly, Broly's power level is said to be too high to measure.

More concretely, according to an interview in V-Jump Broly, during the events of Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan had a power level of 1,400,000,000 in his "Legendary Super Saiyan" form.

For comparison, according to a newspaper interview with Frieza's seiyuu, Frieza after his resurrection, four months of hellish training, and with the increase in power given to him by his Golden Form, had a power level of 100,000,000,000,000,000,000.

100,000,000,000,000,000,000


aaa.1,400,000,000

See the difference?

Goku and Vegeta, in their Blue forms, are roughly equal to Golden Frieza: Frieza had the upper hand at first, but his power wasn't sustainable.

Goku, Frieza, and Vegeta are all confirmed to be leaps and bounds above where they were in Rez F by the Tournament of Power in terms of base power and Goku at the least underwent multiple increases in base power during the Tournament if you pay attention.

We don't have quantifiable numbers for this, however.

The super version of Broly was able to easily manhandle all three of them in various forms, including a stronger and more sustainable version of Frieza's golden form, and ultimately needed Gogeta, in Super Saiyan Blue, to defeat him in his strongest form.

The way the Metamoran Fusion Dance works by multiplying the users powers together: So, Gogeta Is GokuXVegetaX whatever the multiplier of Super Saiyan Blue is.

While we don't know what the multiplier of Super Saiyan Blue is, we do know that it's Super Saiyan God combined with base Super Saiyan, meaning that it's either 50X as powerful as Super Saiyan God or 100X as powerful as Super Saiyan God, dependant on how you interpret the line about "Full Power" Super Saiyan drawing out the full power of Super Saiyan without drawbacks.

The end of the day is that Broly as depicted in Super is exponentially more powerful that Broly as depicted in the old movies.

Now, you could argue that Broly was stronger in Broly Second Coming, but that was only becuase he experienced a single massive boost from Saiyan Power.

The single biggest quantifiable boost anyone has gotten from Saiyan Power was Goku during the Namek Saga going from 90,000 to 3,000,000 after recovering from the beating he got when Ginyu stole his body.

That's a 33.3 repeating multiplication in power.

So, the most Z Broly's power could be in Second Coming would be 46,666,666,662.

Z Broly is an ant compared to Super Broly.

[Forum Explorer]

In Dragon Ball Super: Broly, Broly's power level is said to be too high to measure.

More concretely, according to an interview in V-Jump Broly, during the events of Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan had a power level of 1,400,000,000 in his "Legendary Super Saiyan" form.

For comparison, according to a newspaper interview with Frieza's seiyuu, Frieza after his resurrection, four months of hellish training, and with the increase in power given to him by his Golden Form, had a power level of 100,000,000,000,000,000,000.

100,000,000,000,000,000,000


aaa.1,400,000,000

See the difference?

Goku and Vegeta, in their Blue forms, are roughly equal to Golden Frieza: Frieza had the upper hand at first, but his power wasn't sustainable.

Goku, Frieza, and Vegeta are all confirmed to be leaps and bounds above where they were in Rez F by the Tournament of Power in terms of base power and Goku at the least underwent multiple increases in base power during the Tournament if you pay attention.

We don't have quantifiable numbers for this, however.

The super version of Broly was able to easily manhandle all three of them in various forms, including a stronger and more sustainable version of Frieza's golden form, and ultimately needed Gogeta, in Super Saiyan Blue, to defeat him in his strongest form.

The way the Metamoran Fusion Dance works by multiplying the users powers together: So, Gogeta Is GokuXVegetaX whatever the multiplier of Super Saiyan Blue is.

While we don't know what the multiplier of Super Saiyan Blue is, we do know that it's Super Saiyan God combined with base Super Saiyan, meaning that it's either 50X as powerful as Super Saiyan God or 100X as powerful as Super Saiyan God, dependant on how you interpret the line about "Full Power" Super Saiyan drawing out the full power of Super Saiyan without drawbacks.

The end of the day is that Broly as depicted in Super is exponentially more powerful that Broly as depicted in the old movies.

Now, you could argue that Broly was stronger in Broly Second Coming, but that was only becuase he experienced a single massive boost from Saiyan Power.

The single biggest quantifiable boost anyone has gotten from Saiyan Power was Goku during the Namek Saga going from 90,000 to 3,000,000 after recovering from the beating he got when Ginyu stole his body.

That's a 33.3 repeating multiplication in power.

So, the most Z Broly's power could be in Second Coming would be 46,666,666,662.

Z Broly is an ant compared to Super Broly.

To be clear, I'm confused about the use of the word 'canon' and was wondering if there was some sort of official statement that would justify using feats from the Z Broly movie. Your calculations and stuff are fine, just that as far as canon is concerned there never was a Z Broly to compare to.

[Rynjin]

But that's not what canon says. Canon says that Goku beat Broly on Earth with Super Sayain Blue. He never beat him any other way in canon. Canonically, South Galaxy was never destroyed, or if it was, it wasn't Broly who did it. The DBZ movie Broly never existed according to canon. Only the Super version.

You can't use any feats from that movie (or rather you shouldn't) because it isn't canon with the current Broly. Your logic makes sense, but basically that Broly is as canon as the one that's married to Princess Trunks.

You're being a bit nitpicky IMO, it's pretty clear from my elaboration what I meant.


Though I will say that Super is weird with power levels. A bullet manages to bruise Goku, when way back in Dragon Ball someone could shoot him while he's sleeping and he wouldn't even notice.

Dragon Ball has always been really inconsistent with this. One moment, Launch is shooting at the boys with her Uzi and it just leaves a bit of a mark, and the next we're supposed to believe General Blue really has Goku dead to rights with his shotgun. Krillin hurts Goku with a LIGHTLY THROWN ROCK in the Cell Saga, while he's in Super Saiyan form.

Things are a bit whack.

[Rater202]

Back when the Z anime was big, Toriyama made a statement that the movies all took place in alternate timelines that had differences in the story.

So, they're canon in that they happened, but they aren't in continuity, whereas Super Broly is... Unless the anime comes back and adapts it, then the adaption would take the movie's place in continuity as happened with Battle of Gods and Ressurection F.

The TV specials are a different kettle of Fish: History of Trunks is mostly canon, becuase it's adapting and expanding on something Toriyama did himself, but Bardock: The Father of Goku was not canon.

Toriyama stated that it was a good story, but it was not the kind of story he would write. Bardock was Goku's canonical father, and Bardock confronted Frieza before the destruction of Planet Vegeta, but nothing else from that movie was even remotely canon.

[Forum Explorer]

You're being a bit nitpicky IMO, it's pretty clear from my elaboration what I meant.



Dragon Ball has always been really inconsistent with this. One moment, Launch is shooting at the boys with her Uzi and it just leaves a bit of a mark, and the next we're supposed to believe General Blue really has Goku dead to rights with his shotgun. Krillin hurts Goku with a LIGHTLY THROWN ROCK in the Cell Saga, while he's in Super Saiyan form.

Things are a bit whack.

I just wanted to be clear on how you confused me in the first place.


Fair point. Dragon Ball has never been the best at being consistent.

[Dragonus45]

To be clear, I'm confused about the use of the word 'canon' and was wondering if there was some sort of official statement that would justify using feats from the Z Broly movie. Your calculations and stuff are fine, just that as far as canon is concerned there never was a Z Broly to compare to.

Virtually anyone around in super could end a whole galaxy at this point, it doesn't have to be explicitly stated to still be cannon to be in keeping with what he and others have been shown to be able to do by the math.

[Anteros]

None of this even matters. This is Death Battle we're talking about. They're just going to take a throwaway line about Hulk being "immortal" or having "infinite" strength and say he wins despite the fact that Broly's feats are all an order of magnitude higher than Hulk's.

Hulk couldn't even win a fight against Saiyan Saga Vegeta since he could just fly up, bust the planet, and leave Hulk floating in space forever.

[Rater202]

None of this even matters. This is Death Battle we're talking about. They're just going to take a throwaway line about Hulk being "immortal" or having "infinite" strength and say he wins despite the fact that Broly's feats are all an order of magnitude higher than Hulk's.

Hulk couldn't even win a fight against Saiyan Saga Vegeta since he could just fly up, bust the planet, and leave Hulk floating in space forever.

I don't know, Death Battle's bias against Marvel is almost as great as their bias against dragon ball.

If they play it fair, Hulk will put up a good fight at first but be quickly overwhelmed.

However, if Hulk gets completely curb-stomped or if Broly loses at all, we know that's the result of one of the biases getting in the way.

[Traab]

They put the lee blurb up. Didnt cover anything too interesting aside from mentioning his drunken boxing making him able to fight on par with opponents that would normally surpass him. Im honestly curious to see what sort of feat numbers these guys get as its kind of hard to definitively say who wins because I dont think either one really outclasses the other to an insane extent based on their own merits, and death battle loves to give their combatants the merits of other people as well. Such as constantly declaring goro is as fast as kabal because both are in mortal kombat. Despite there never once even remotely being a single scene that suggests he is supersonic.

[SKarious]

Are they even going to give Sanji a chance? I bet they'll say Rock Lee scales to Naruto because they fought once, and since Naruto punched out a moon, Sanji has no chance to win this.

[Traab]

Are they even going to give Sanji a chance? I bet they'll say Rock Lee scales to Naruto because they fought once, and since Naruto punched out a moon, Sanji has no chance to win this.

That is what im honestly wondering about. Im not sure what his biggest strength feat is, between kicking hard enough to stand in midair, or kicking that giant fishman creature on fishman island into the air, there are some very solid feats to draw from when estimating how much force he can produce. Though it looks like they are giving him the speed feat of how fast he would have to spin to ignite his leg from friction. Which is pretty darn quick. "But naruto can dodge light speed attacks, therefore lee can too" is an argument im just waiting to hear. I swear screw attack gets worse and worse with its transitive property with every season.

[Forum Explorer]

That is what im honestly wondering about. Im not sure what his biggest strength feat is, between kicking hard enough to stand in midair, or kicking that giant fishman creature on fishman island into the air, there are some very solid feats to draw from when estimating how much force he can produce. Though it looks like they are giving him the speed feat of how fast he would have to spin to ignite his leg from friction. Which is pretty darn quick. "But naruto can dodge light speed attacks, therefore lee can too" is an argument im just waiting to hear. I swear screw attack gets worse and worse with its transitive property with every season.

I find that the transitive property stuff is often with fighting games or minor characters. So maybe Lee will get compared to Guy, but I don't think they'll touch Naruto's feats much.

[ben-zayb]

I find that the transitive property stuff is often with fighting games or minor characters. So maybe Lee will get compared to Guy, but I don't think they'll touch Naruto's feats much.Uhm. Guy got compared to Naruto, though.

[Forum Explorer]

Uhm. Guy got compared to Naruto, though.

Yes, I'm betting that the one layer removed will be enough to keep Lee from being compared to Naruto. But most notably, Guy did not get credit for the moon destroying feat, as it was deemed beyond him.

[Traab]

Yes, I'm betting that the one layer removed will be enough to keep Lee from being compared to Naruto. But most notably, Guy did not get credit for the moon destroying feat, as it was deemed beyond him.

True, but considering lee is basically young gai, it wouldnt shock me at all if they gave him gais stats then tacked drunken boxing on at the end.

[Forum Explorer]

True, but considering lee is basically young gai, it wouldnt shock me at all if they gave him gais stats then tacked drunken boxing on at the end.

I can't remember if it's stated that Lee can use all the Gates or not, but they might just give him everything Gai has minus the Gate of Death.

[Rynjin]

I can't remember if it's stated that Lee can use all the Gates or not, but they might just give him everything Gai has minus the Gate of Death.

He makes it all the way up to 7 when he tries to square up on Madara, before Guy stops him. It's implied he was psyching himself up to push through to 8.

[hungrycrow]

He makes it all the way up to 7 when he tries to square up on Madara, before Guy stops him. It's implied he was psyching himself up to push through to 8.

Lee claims he can only use up to the sixth gate during the fight with Madara. I have no idea what he can do in Boruto.

[Traab]

Lee claims he can only use up to the sixth gate during the fight with Madara. I have no idea what he can do in Boruto.

That still gives him the ability to punch out fireballs and such like sanji can do with kicks only ranged. So that probably would give him the edge in strength and/or speed due to how it happens. I am honestly curious to see how this goes as really, this all comes down to how they decide to interpret both characters feats and what sort of extras they will tack on. This isnt flash versus quicksilver where the gap is so ludicrously large and obvious there is no point in having them fight. And its also not a matter of loopholes such as the ichigo naruto fight where they had to twist things to make naruto fighting a disembodied soul work somehow. Its two taijutsu masters going at it hammer and tongs.

[Rater202]

This isnt flash versus quicksilver where the gap is so ludicrously large and obvious there is no point in having them fight.

That's a weird vs debate to have, since Marvel and DC actually have agreed on how it goes.

Quicksilver is technically faster than the Flash, but the Speed Force's infinite power and physical violating bullcrap lets the Flash supplement his natural speed many times over what Quicksilver is capable of sustaining.

Quicksilver can technically go infinitely fast but rarely goes to even a fraction of his greatest feats becuase he's limited to the power in his own body--his metabolism is impossibly efficient, but if he doesn't have enough gas in the tank... The Flash's body can only go so fast on its own but he has an infinite source of energy and can easily overclock himself to go many times the speed of light while ignoring all of the ways that someone not connected tot he Speed Force doing that would kill themselves and everyone around them.

[HolyDraconus]

Spoilers of course.

Sanji. Yes, they scaled Rock to Guy. Yes, they brought up that stupid moon feat. Yes, they gave Rock the 8 gates. Yes, they said that Rock could pulp Sanji on a hit from the 8th gate... But Sanji apparently spanks Rock in speed to the point that it didn't really matter?


And..


You already know who it is. Hulk v Broly. Dec 27th.

[Traab]

Ugh There was so much wrong with this comparison. LUFFY IS NOT 13x LIGHT SPEED! That was pure observation haki letting him predict an attack with a several second charge up and move out of its way like 2 inches. Then on top of that, just because zoro can cut a meteor doesnt magically make sanji just as strong, or durable enough to take it. I swear to god deathbattle is relying more and more on transitive property as the series continues. You have 90 fricking years of One Piece, and about half that for naruto to pick out actual feats performed by the actual people involved in the death battle to work with. USE THAT! Hercule Satan does not scale up to Goku just because they are both in the same anime! (goku is a scrub in comparison) Being in the same anime doesnt make you the same power level as the main protagonist!

[hungrycrow]

So much transitive property. I would have given Sanji the win anyways, but I can't see him as a faster-than-light character.

[Forum Explorer]

Honestly the transitive properties isn't that bad for this one. Sanji does fight Luffy and Zoro all the time, and Lee was directly trained by Guy and was already at the 6th gate when he was still a teenager.

However, they also really didn't need to do transitive properties for this fight. There is plenty of material to use for Sanji, and a good amount for Lee too.

The lightspeed dodge? Yeah, that was BS and I just don't think that actually counts as moving at lightspeed in the first place. Reacting, at a stretch (:smallwink:). Though I still think Sanji would've won. Flight+Invisibility in combination on Lee not having any sort of radar or scanning jutsus that I'm aware of would make it easy for Sanji to run out the clock on the 8th Gate.

[Rynjin]

Yeah, this is another one where I'm not mad at the result so much as the path they took to get there. It cheapens a character's victory when you completely fail to make it THEIR victory, and is instead a conglomeration of other characters' feats.

[Traab]

Honestly the transitive properties isn't that bad for this one. Sanji does fight Luffy and Zoro all the time, and Lee was directly trained by Guy and was already at the 6th gate when he was still a teenager.

However, they also really didn't need to do transitive properties for this fight. There is plenty of material to use for Sanji, and a good amount for Lee too.

The lightspeed dodge? Yeah, that was BS and I just don't think that actually counts as moving at lightspeed in the first place. Reacting, at a stretch (:smallwink:). Though I still think Sanji would've won. Flight+Invisibility in combination on Lee not having any sort of radar or scanning jutsus that I'm aware of would make it easy for Sanji to run out the clock on the 8th Gate.

I agree with your conclusion, but sparring with zoro and luffy doesnt mean they are on par with each other. Mostly its comedic fighting between sanji and zoro and not serious, as the boat still freaking exists after they are done, and it wouldnt if they were doing island busting feats at each other. As for lee, matching him to gai is fair enough, but then the extra step to match him to naruto is what bugged me. Not everyone still alive at the end of naruto is as strong as the main character. The sasuke comparison worked because they were on par with each other for raw power at their peaks, or at least close enough to let it slide, but it seems like everyone in the naruto universe is going to be a moon buster at this rate. Lets redo the garra toph fight, like naruto garra is also a young kage, therefore he can blow up the moon and move at lightspeed. There, I justified it as much as they do themselves.

[HolyDraconus]

I agree with your conclusion, but sparring with zoro and luffy doesnt mean they are on par with each other. Mostly its comedic fighting between sanji and zoro and not serious, as the boat still freaking exists after they are done, and it wouldnt if they were doing island busting feats at each other. As for lee, matching him to gai is fair enough, but then the extra step to match him to naruto is what bugged me. Not everyone still alive at the end of naruto is as strong as the main character. The sasuke comparison worked because they were on par with each other for raw power at their peaks, or at least close enough to let it slide, but it seems like everyone in the naruto universe is going to be a moon buster at this rate. Lets redo the garra toph fight, like naruto garra is also a young kage, therefore he can blow up the moon and move at lightspeed. There, I justified it as much as they do themselves.

eh, gaara should of won that fight WITHOUT having to scale to naruto with the "moon busting" feat.

[Traab]

eh, gaara should of won that fight WITHOUT having to scale to naruto with the "moon busting" feat.

Oh I fully agree, I just figure confirming that garra can blow up moons at light speed should make the outcome even more obviously wrong. :smallbiggrin: Heh, of course my actual point was how silly it is that every narutoverse character but garra is somehow a moonbuster now. It really is no different than giving every character in dbz goku feats then adding on whatever unique trait they have on top (like lee and his drunken boxing) which is just silly.

[hungrycrow]

It's kind of irrelevant, but noting drunken boxing as a point in Lee's favor is a little silly. Sanji has fought a guy piloting a noodle mech he squeezed out of his nose. Drunken kung fu might be unpredictable in Narutoverse but it's utterly mundane in One Piece.

[ben-zayb]

That speed scaling is so weird. I'm sure if they researched enough, they should be able to find something Sanji actually performed. In the anime, at least, his raid suit was stated to allow lightspeed movement. I still dislike the presentation where they show things in the fight that wouldn't really matter or make sense in the analysis (I imagine an 8-gate attack to do much more than just blow up Sanji's leg, but Lee wouldn't really hit Sanji with the raid suit's speed and invisibility).



It's kind of irrelevant, but noting drunken boxing as a point in Lee's favor is a little silly. Sanji has fought a guy piloting a noodle mech he squeezed out of his nose. Drunken kung fu might be unpredictable in Narutoverse but it's utterly mundane in One Piece.
Sanji actually fought someone that has a drunken-fist-styled attack named Drunken Swan Soiree as part of their ballet martial arts repertoire.

[Traab]

It's kind of irrelevant, but noting drunken boxing as a point in Lee's favor is a little silly. Sanji has fought a guy piloting a noodle mech he squeezed out of his nose. Drunken kung fu might be unpredictable in Narutoverse but it's utterly mundane in One Piece.

And lee has fought guys who turn into giant red foxes full of rage and malice whose very energy poisons whatever it touches. There is nothing silly about including mention of a skill one of the combatants has that makes them more formidable even for a short term boost. I dont think anybody was thinking, "MWAHAHAHA! Sanji is going to be utterly helpless against the oddity that is lee getting drunk!" Instead they were thinking, "This is a skill lee has that makes him harder to hit. Cant hurt trying it." And honestly, none of their skills matter THAT much other than their actual trump cards and ultimate states. The raid suit and lees gates. Everything before that is just padding the fight so it looks more interesting. Its like the goku superman fight. Base state, kaio ken, and ss 1-3 are meaningless to the battle, we all knew it was going to go straight to the top eventually before it would be decided.

[HolyDraconus]

Hulk blurp is up. Infinite Strength was cited. Punching reality cited. Winner Hulk?