War Hulk - Great Swing RAW vs RAI

[smetzger]

Great Swing (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a war hulk is able to make a great, sweeping swing with a melee weapon. As a full-round action, the war hulk can choose three squares adjacent to one another (he must threaten all of them). His attack applies to all creatures in those squares. Make one attack roll and apply that roll as an attack against each defender. If the war hulk uses a special attack (such as disarm, trip, or sunder), this special attack affects only the first target; the other creatures are attacked normally. Walls and similar obstacles can block a great swing. Start with one square that the war hulk threatens. Each successive square chosen must be adjacent to the previous square and have line of effect from that square. Two squares separated by a wall, for instance, can't be chosen as adjacent squares for a great swing. The war hulk may skip creatures, attacking only those he wants to. For example, if there are three creatures in a row—an enemy, an ally, and another enemy—the war hulk can choose those three squares for the great swing but strike only the two enemies. If a war hulk drops one of his foes with a great swing, he may make a cleave attack normally. However, he may do so only once for every time he swings, even if he drops more than one foe.

So...

1. "...All creatures within those squares..." Can a war hulk effectively attack a swarm with this?

2. It doesn't say it needs to be 3 different creatures in those squares. If fighting a huge(or larger)creature can you take all 3 attacks on the creature if it occupies those 3 squares?

Thoughts

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"His attack applies to all creatures in those squares."

This is a yes/no question of "does the creature occupy at least one of those three squares?" It can only be answered yes or no, if yes the attack applies to that creature, if no it doesn't. It's not one attack per square, it's one attack that either gets applied to a creature, or it doesn't.

A swarm is a creature, so this attack could hit a swarm one time, just as if it were any other creature occupying at least one of those three squares.

[Dimers]

I completely agree about targeting, but there's a bit more to the swarm question. Swarms of Diminutive/Fine creatures are still immune to weapon damage.

Swarms of Tiny creatures take half damage from weapons, though the great swing attack arguably also qualifies for +50% damage increase as an "effect that affects an area". And some DMs will claim that results in 75% damage, while others -- with better RAW support -- would say it's 100% of the usual damage, with the +50% canceling the -50%. So the best result you're likely to see against a swarm is your usual weapon damage against Tiny creatures only.

[DarkSoul]

1: No.

2: Also no. You're only making one attack, it's just hitting a wider area. If one creature takes up all three squares, the war hulk hits them one time.

[Psyren]

I'd say yes to swarms, no to big creatures getting multiple hits.

EDIT: I agree with Dimers' swarm caveat however.

[frogglesmash]

Swarms of Tiny creatures take half damage from weapons,

Small correction: They take half damage from piercing, and slashing weapons, bludgeoning weapons deal full damage

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It can target a swarm just as if it were any other single creature. The swarm's immunity to damage applies just as if it were any other weapon attack.

[Segev]

It can target a swarm just as if it were any other single creature. The swarm's immunity to damage applies just as if it were any other weapon attack.

This is also my answer. Think about what is actually happening "in story." What the great swing mechanics are representing. They're representing making a powerful, sweeping motion that powers through enemies to sweep through critters in a large area (roughly 15x5). It isn't making the weapon larger than normal, nor is it technically moving it adroitly to hit everything individually. It's an abstraction and part of the "to hit" roll is determining whether the four Tiny creatures in one of the squares are even lined up right to be hit by a single sweep. When you hit a swarm with it, you're swinging through the swarm just as if you were swinging through it with a normal attack; you just are coming from having swung through other squares or are going to sweep through more (or both). The same reason swarms are harder to damage with weapons applies as normal.

With larger creatures, you're also still only hitting it once. You're swinging through it and hit it probably in the first square it occupies, and you're not doing any additional damage for continuing the swing. It's already gotten itself out of the way as part of the first hit's hp loss.

[smetzger]

I agree with the ruling on swarms.

The ruling on huge creatures is less clear to me.


With larger creatures, you're also still only hitting it once. You're swinging through it and hit it probably in the first square it occupies, and you're not doing any additional damage for continuing the swing. It's already gotten itself out of the way as part of the first hit's hp loss.

If I swing through the dragons leg and hit another leg wouldn't that be additional damage? Or swing through the Hydras neck to strike another neck?

The ability says. It says.. "...His attack applies to all creatures in those squares..."
hmm... re-reading this maybe could be convinced on this ruling...
"...The war hulk may skip creatures, attacking only those he wants to..."

I guess it depends on attacking is a rule definition 'attack' or re-using the word in a descriptive manner.

[Segev]

If I swing through the dragons leg and hit another leg wouldn't that be additional damage? Or swing through the Hydras neck to strike another neck?You might have an argument on hydra necks; they're individually targetable even in the abstracted rules for combat in D&D. But a dragon's leg is not; you're attacking "the dragon." If the dragon occupies at least one square you're designating, you may include it in your attack. You don't get to include any creature more than once, because the ability doesn't say you can. Whether a hydra neck is a separate "creature" for this purpose is a DM call, because you can construct reasonable arguments either way, both RAW and RAI.


The ability says. It says.. "...His attack applies to all creatures in those squares..."
hmm... re-reading this maybe could be convinced on this ruling...
"...The war hulk may skip creatures, attacking only those he wants to..."

I guess it depends on attacking is a rule definition 'attack' or re-using the word in a descriptive manner.
I'm not sure what you mean. How is "attack" being used differently in these two contexts? Both mean, to me, "the thing he's rolling a d20 to represent the accuracy of."

[Celestia]

Re: hydra necks
If I remember correctly, attacking a hydra neck is a sunder attack, not a regular attack. The rules for great swing specifically state that special attacks, like sunder, can only apply to the first creature hit. Thus, you cannot hit two hydra necks with one swing.

[Wildstag]

Also remember that energy damage would still be dealt to the swarms in full, so a War Hulk with a Flaming weapon would still deal fire damage to the swarm that the weapon passes through. It's paltry damage, but then there are probably ways to increase that damage.

[Menzath]

His attack applies to all creatures in those squares.

I think this is the key sentence to answer #2

Even though you "attack" multiple squares, it is still only one creature so your attack would still only have one roll on each creature, so one creature, one roll.
Barring any other special rules on creatures with body parts that can be natively targeted separately, that is.

Rule of cool I would say why not though? Mundanes need more cool things. And straight damage/attacks are hardly game breaking.