How many Goblins would populate a lair?

[arnin77]

Hello All, I've been playing 5e for a little over a year now (haven't played since 2e), and was looking to DM for the first time. We play west marches so there are alot of DMs (5) and Players (100+). For my first adventure arc i'd like to keep it simple and wanted to focus on goblins. I've read that they can have multiple lairs and hundreds of goblins in a tribe, however the exact numbers are a little fuzzy. I remember there being tables for this in earlier editions but i'm just wondering how to populate a lair so when it does get there it's not a TPK because it's too challenging.

[MaxWilson]

Anthropology might suggest that roughly 150 individuals is a plausible upper limit for a small community where everybody knows everybody: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number

Figure that maybe 25% are children, another 10% are old are decrepit, that gives you approximately 50 male warriors and 50 females who may or may not be warriors depending on how you view goblin culture. (Given their physiology (Dex-based) and cultural niche it seems to me that goblin males have no advantage in combat, but you might still view males as more expendable, since females are essential to reproduction but males are not, unless goblins are highly monogamous.)

TL;DR I suggest between 50-100 warriors plus noncombatants.

[Unoriginal]

Hello All, I've been playing 5e for a little over a year now (haven't played since 2e), and was looking to DM for the first time. We play west marches so there are alot of DMs (5) and Players (100+). For my first adventure arc i'd like to keep it simple and wanted to focus on goblins. I've read that they can have multiple lairs and hundreds of goblins in a tribe, however the exact numbers are a little fuzzy. I remember there being tables for this in earlier editions but i'm just wondering how to populate a lair so when it does get there it's not a TPK because it's too challenging.

Depends what you mean by "lair". Are we talking about a several-generation-old fortified village? A fort they've taken over six months ago? A bunch of ruins contested between goblins, kobolds and grells?

In Tomb of Annihilation, the Batiri goblin village of Yellyark is composed of 40 inhabitants, including 15 noncombatants, for example.

[arnin77]

Depends what you mean by "lair". Are we talking about a several-generation-old fortified village? A fort they've taken over six months ago? A bunch of ruins contested between goblins, kobolds and grells?

In Tomb of Annihilation, the Batiri goblin village of Yellyark is composed of 40 inhabitants, including 15 noncombatants, for example.

I am referring to the monster manual. A tribe can consist of hundreds of goblins with multiple lairs.

The one I have in mind would be a newer lair recently established relatively close to a township in caves. Just for Tier 1 play.

Playing in west marches all the sessions are DM developed so I don’t have experience with the modules. I was just wondering if there were tables to go off of because I don’t want to underpower or overpower it.

[thereaper]

However many combatants are necessary to provide the challenge level you deem appropriate for the PCs. The noncombatant numbers are irrelevant.

[Damon_Tor]

Hello All, I've been playing 5e for a little over a year now (haven't played since 2e), and was looking to DM for the first time. We play west marches so there are alot of DMs (5) and Players (100+). For my first adventure arc i'd like to keep it simple and wanted to focus on goblins. I've read that they can have multiple lairs and hundreds of goblins in a tribe, however the exact numbers are a little fuzzy. I remember there being tables for this in earlier editions but i'm just wondering how to populate a lair so when it does get there it's not a TPK because it's too challenging.

No idea if this is helpful to you: if you're playing in a default setting, it isn't likely to be. But this is how goblinoids function in mine:

Goblinoids are a hive-dwelling eusocial species, with each type of goblinoid representing a caste of that species. Goblins (non-breeding females) are the workers, hobgoblins (non-breeding males) are the soldiers, Bugbears (breeding males) are the drones, and a "Goblin Queen" is the single breeding female in the warren. The Goblin Queens produce around 100 infants every spring, putting a hard limit on population growth. Goblins live to be around 30 years old (assuming they never develop into a Queen) while Hobgoblins transition into Bugbears around the same age, and can theoretically live for another 40-50 years as bugbears, but competing for breeding rights is a high-lethality game, leaving very few Bugbears alive after a Queen's "flight". 2/3 of births are goblins, 1/3 hobgoblins. This means in theory an established warren with normal mortality rate will maintain a population of around 2000 goblins and 1000 hobgoblins, with maybe a little over a hundred bugbears, the ones who just transitioned from hobgoblins and have yet to fight to breed plus the survivors of the last flight. Goblins are ready to begin work at two years old, Hobgoblins to fight at around four.

In practice however, a warren rarely gets this large: when population density gets high enough, more than one worker can start to transition into a Queen at the same time, which splits the warren. The multiple new Queens will create rival factions of Hobgoblins: this conflict rarely comes to violence, however, and the largest of these factions will remain in the warren while the others will leave (taking with them a proportional number of Goblins as a labor force) and establish new warrens or conquer weak ones. This means in practice you would be unlikely to encounter a warren with more than 500 hobgoblins and 1000 goblins, as that warren would be on the verge of a split. It's possible to encounter migratory bands of goblinoids forced from their warren in this way, groups of 100-200 hobgoblins and twice as many goblins and a single young queen. Such "swarms" are extremely aggressive, as it's critical they establish themselves, so their desire to take territory is strong.

An important note on queens: they do not give birth more than once. They become pregnant with a large brood of around 100 and giving birth almost always kills them. In the summer a new worker will begin to develop into a Queen and in the autumn she will "fly" leaving the warren forcing the bugbears to prove themselves capable in order to mate with her, driving the pursuing bugbears into danger and conflict and choosing the survivors as her mates. She will mate with as many as ten bugbears during this flight, including bugbears from other warrens. She returns to the warren pregnant, and begins her incubation. She gives birth to her litter in the spring and usually dies thereafter.

The reason this is important: rarely a queen does survive birthing her litter. She can never produce another, and a new queen rises from the ranks of the goblins as normal, but she lingers and assumes a powerful leadership position within the warren. Now called a Matriarch, this goblin commands respect and obedience not only within her own warren, but in any warrens founded or conquered by any Queens born from her litter. She has control over the maturation of the queens in warrens she controls, which means she can deliberately uplift her own daughters instead of other goblins and deliberately create (or prevent) hive splits. It isn't clear what the lifespan of a matriarch might be, but they can live at least as long as humans, giving them many decades to build a goblin nation, a dangerous political force. A matriarch with 80 daughters, all of whom have become queens and founded/conquered well functioning warrens which are allowed to grow to the maximum size without splitting, will command a disciplined army of around 80,000 hobgoblins, supported by 160,000 goblins. It's worth noting she has no ability to directly command the bugbears.

[MaxWilson]

I am referring to the monster manual. A tribe can consist of hundreds of goblins with multiple lairs.

The one I have in mind would be a newer lair recently established relatively close to a township in caves. Just for Tier 1 play.

Playing in west marches all the sessions are DM developed so I don’t have experience with the modules. I was just wondering if there were tables to go off of because I don’t want to underpower or overpower it.

Tier 1 has a wide variety of power levels, with level 4 PCs being in some ways about 4x as powerful as level 1 PCs, so you'll probably want to use some kind of dynamic scaling, which fortunately should be pretty easy in West Marches-style campaigns. I'd recommend you go to Kobold Fight Club (https://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder) and run the numbers for a string of different encounters gradually increasing in difficulty, then use that to create your lair. It might look something like:

[set number of PCs to 4, PC level to 1]
3 Goblins: Hard fight (Hard often really means "Easy to Medium")
1 Goblin + 1 Swarm of Rot Grubs: Medium fight (but actually harder than the Hard fight because of the rot grubs, could kill PCs in satisfying West Marches fashion if they don't burn the grubs off)
1 Goblin Boss + 2 Goblins: Deadly fight (which really means "medium-hard")
2 Bugbears: Deadly fight
[set number of PCs to 4, PC level to 2]
4 Goblins: Medium fight
6 Goblins: Hard
2 Bugbears: Hard
3 Goblins and 1 Bugbear: Hard
[set number of PCs to 4, PC level to 3]
1 Carrion Crawler: Easy
4 Goblins and 4 Stirges: Medium

etc. Then sprinkle these encounters around, with the level 1 encounters closer to the PCs' start area and the level 3-4 encounters deep inside. Try to make sure there's something new and different in each room even if the monsters are the same: maybe in one room, 3 goblins are sitting around a table drinking pine sap and rolling dice when the PCs get there, and in another room, it looks at first like it's just a huge pine sap distillery but it turns out 3 goblins are heard the PCs coming and are hiding and around in the various barrels and contraptions, popping out only long enough to fire off an arrow before Hiding again with their Nimble Escape feature.

Players will choose their own difficulty based on how deep they press before giving up.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Back in my day, the Monster Manual answered this question. (No School Like Old School)

From the book I read, I see 40-400 partly answers the question of how many. There's more detail about the chief, bodyguards, etc.

But the lair numbers include females equal to 60% of the males (40-400) and subadults equal to 100% of the males. This means a max lair has 400 males, 240 females, and 400 kids, totalling 1040 goblin life forms plus VIPs. Add in wolves of various sizes, a 20% possibility of bugbears (not hobgoblins, 'cause that's a hobgoblin camp then), and you got a lot of gobbies on your battlemat.

[arnin77]

Back in my day, the Monster Manual answered this question. (No School Like Old School)

From the book I read, I see 40-400 partly answers the question of how many. There's more detail about the chief, bodyguards, etc.

But the lair numbers include females equal to 60% of the males (40-400) and subadults equal to 100% of the males. This means a max lair has 400 males, 240 females, and 400 kids, totalling 1040 goblin life forms plus VIPs. Add in wolves of various sizes, a 20% possibility of bugbears (not hobgoblins, 'cause that's a hobgoblin camp then), and you got a lot of gobbies on your battlemat.

Yes this is what I am looking for! Is that from 3E? I remember something like this I was just wondering If it’s been updated to 5e... I read Volos guide to monsters but there’s no hard set number as sizes of lairs can vary. I just want something that can be challenging to the players but can also be a milestone for them to get past (and be able to get past)

[Unoriginal]

Yes this is what I am looking for! Is that from 3E? I remember something like this I was just wondering If it’s been updated to 5e... I read Volos guide to monsters but there’s no hard set number as sizes of lairs can vary. I just want something that can be challenging to the players but can also be a milestone for them to get past (and be able to get past)

What's the expected number of PCs and their lvls?

Anything past 50 is going to be a lethal threat for most PCs, assuming they're all fought at once.

[MaxWilson]

Yes this is what I am looking for! Is that from 3E? I remember something like this I was just wondering If it’s been updated to 5e... I read Volos guide to monsters but there’s no hard set number as sizes of lairs can vary. I just want something that can be challenging to the players but can also be a milestone for them to get past (and be able to get past)

It sounds like AD&D maybe. The AD&D 2nd edition Monstrous Manual (https://www.dmsguild.com/product/16865/Monstrous-Manual-2e) has the following information on goblin ecology/society/organization:

Tribal organization, any non-artic land, active primarily at night or very dark cloudy days, carnivorous.
Outside a lair, typically 4-24 appearing.
Dwell in caves and underground ("dank and dismal" to humans, no sanitation, foul stench, apparently resistant to disease), and sometimes aboveground in ruins.
Communal life, large common areas for sleeping and eating.

Typical tribe has 40-400 (4d10 x 10) adult male warriors. For every 40 goblins, 1 leader and 4 assistants (slightly tougher: in 5E terms just give them max HP). For every 200 goblins, 1 sub-chief and 2-8 (2d4) bodyguards (significantly tougher, use 5E Goblin Boss stats). Tribe has a single goblin cheif and 2-4 (2d4) bodyguards (tougher than subchiefs, maybe use Goblin Boss stats but roll HP twice and take the maximum, and better armor).

25% chance that 10% of the goblin tribe will be mounted upon huge worgs, and will have 10-40 (1d4 x 10) additional unmounted worgs with them. 60% chance the alir is guarded by 5-30 (5d6) additional worgs, and a 20% chance of 2-12 (2d6) bugbears. Goblin shamans are rare but may reach up to 7th level. Spheres include Divination, Healing (reversed), Protection, and Sun (reversed). (In 5E there are no spheres but use this for guidance on spell choices.)

There will be adult females equal to 60% of the total males and children equal to the total number of adults in the lair. Neither will fight in battle.

Slaves of several races equal to 10-40% of the size of the tribe will be present. Kept shackled, staked to a common chain when sleeping.

If you like these kinds of stats (and I do), consider buying some AD&D books and stealing stats from them. AD&D is "advanced" compared to 5E in many ways, among them having more concern for realism and ecologies instead of being purely combat-focused.

[Tanarii]

Yes this is what I am looking for! Is that from 3E?AD&D 1e.
3e also had 40-400 with 100% non-combatants. Plus leaders.
BECMI had 6d10 in wilderness encounters not in lair, with up to x5 in a lair. So up to 300. Plus additional leaders.

There are all more than "challenging to get past". They're appropriate as a primary hex lair in a hex crawl though. Basically an adventuring site worth more than one visit, with dynamic changes based on PC actions.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Yes this is what I am looking for! Is that from 3E? I remember something like this I was just wondering If it’s been updated to 5e... I read Volos guide to monsters but there’s no hard set number as sizes of lairs can vary. I just want something that can be challenging to the players but can also be a milestone for them to get past (and be able to get past)

This is from the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons monster manual, the original one. Did a lot of ecological stuff got stripped after 2nd Ed? 2nd Ed might be the problem for all the damn impossible one off monsters of limited use. If you accepts flumphs, you are NOT SERIOUS about ecology anymore, are you?

Have fun, you genocidal maniacs! Wiping out a goblin settlement makes you good-racist.

But seriously, there might be ramifications. The hobgoblin army that recruits 'scouts' (cannon fodder) from the settlement you wipe out will not be amused. Not to mention the possible wrath of Maglubiyet. So there could be some retaliation.

[LordCdrMilitant]

However many combatants are necessary to provide the challenge level you deem appropriate for the PCs. The noncombatant numbers are irrelevant.

I think the collective number of combatants and noncombatants should be the appropriate challenge.

After all, as players see it there's really no noncombatants around, just varying levels of ability to do damage back [which they don't usually find out anyway].

[Eldariel]

I doubled up a human tribe so 300 goblins, 150 combatants per tribe was my approximation.

[Reaver25]

Might I suggest giving this video a look on not only how many Gobbos would populate a lair, but also on general tactics. Veeeeery insightful.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T94SVug8jms&t=158s

[KorvinStarmast]

How many Goblins would populate a lair?
After the murderhoboes PCs visit? Zero.

AD&D 1e. -snip- They're appropriate as a primary hex lair in a hex crawl though. Basically an adventuring site worth more than one visit, with dynamic changes based on PC actions. This too.

Anecdote from experience:
The party I ran through the Sunless Citadel ended up killing a few of the goblin commoners, but the Paladin (Dragonborn) picked up on the difference and convinced the others to not kill any commoner who fled. The party ended up leaving 8 commoners in the basement getting drunk on goblin wine when they headed off to confront the druid. When they came back through on the way out of the citadel there was scrawled in dried wine and blood on the broken down door, a crude "thanks for not killing" us written on the door at the western end of the lab. :smallsmile: (The goblins had, per DM decision, once they had collectively broken down the spiked door, headed off down one of the passageways that leads eventually 'off screen' to the Underdark).

[arnin77]

This is from the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons monster manual, the original one. Did a lot of ecological stuff got stripped after 2nd Ed? 2nd Ed might be the problem for all the damn impossible one off monsters of limited use. If you accepts flumphs, you are NOT SERIOUS about ecology anymore, are you?

Have fun, you genocidal maniacs! Wiping out a goblin settlement makes you good-racist.

But seriously, there might be ramifications. The hobgoblin army that recruits 'scouts' (cannon fodder) from the settlement you wipe out will not be amused. Not to mention the possible wrath of Maglubiyet. So there could be some retaliation.

Thanks! .. that's the plan :)