Femme Fetale Bard/Rogue or Rogue Bard

[LadyAgape]

Hey all,

Playing in my 2nd 5e campaign and have otherwise only played in homebrew 2nd edition with some specific guidelines.

Im trying to put together a character and I'd like some feedback from yall on the best way to approach it. I want to do a Mata hari like character. A changeling that belongs to the elven houses of Phiarlan and Thuranni under different appearances. They control the business of espionage throughout Khorvaire, but they also operate more legitimate businesses related to art and entertainment.

So I want to seem to the world to be these performers, but really be a spy/rogue as my real self. And I use my powers of the arts to ensnare etc with song/dance/chosen words. Since Ive chosen to make it where my character doesn't trust easy to show that shes a shapeshifter at all if having difficulty deciding what the main class should be. For example it may be some time before my party even knows Im a shifter.

Am I a Bard/Rogue using my whiles, talents etc as a primary? Or am I a Rogue/Bard that to the others seems like a really bad bard because I'm not super great at it but likes to stabby things.

For Bard I was thinking School of Glamour, and for Rogue I was thinking Assasin.
I was hoping to be able to use sirens song but looks like that's a 3e thing.

I would love honest opinions on which is best to go to Rogue/Bard or Bard/Rogue for this type of character.

[ThatoneGuy84]

I would start Rogue myself.
Rogue class, Assassin isnt my fav, but if it works for you thematically then go for it.
But since your blending with Bard, take a look at swashbuckler and Arcane trickster aswell, it depends how "high level" your going to get to.
Bard I almost want to say go with an option that gets second attack, it's in no way mandatory, you would just have to realize that you'd be looking at duelweilding, or having 1 attack long game, which is "ok" but you will be short changing your sneak attack damage by taking bard.

Whispers Bard could be pretty thematic over glammer bard, they have some neat tricks, and ontop of that you can dump some inspiration into more damage when you hit, which shores up some of the DPS lost loosing sneak attack aswell.

Rogue/Bard combos can be tough, but they arent to MAD which is nice.
Dex and Cha and a decent amount of Con. (Much more mad if you take Arcane trickers thou)

Changeling is an enjoyable race, I had alot of fun playing a changeling rogue in a previous campaign.

[loki_ragnarock]

Glamour Bard is the way to go; that's your Jem persona. The flashy, look at me, clearly a rockstar persona. Glamour and glitter, fashion and fame.

I'd go mastermind rogue for your Jerica persona; subtle, good at going through paperwork, shifting illicit funds through the Starlight Foundation.


The two will be distinct enough thanks to your shapeshifting and disguise-ery that Rio will never know to put the two together, ensuring he'll continue to be racked with guilt over the feelings he shares for both of your personas.
It's a total victory.

EDIT:
If it's not clear, Bard first. It's called Jem and the Holograms, not Jerica and the House Full of Orphans.

[LtPowers]

Glamour Bard is the way to go; that's your Jem persona. The flashy, look at me, clearly a rockstar persona. Glamour and glitter, fashion and fame.

I'd go mastermind rogue for your Jerica persona; subtle, good at going through paperwork, shifting illicit funds through the Starlight Foundation.


The two will be distinct enough thanks to your shapeshifting and disguise-ery that Rio will never know to put the two together, ensuring he'll continue to be racked with guilt over the feelings he shares for both of your personas.
It's a total victory.

EDIT:
If it's not clear, Bard first. It's called Jem and the Holograms, not Jerica and the House Full of Orphans.

This is one of the best comments I've read on these forums.

Following on from that, though, while the Charlatan or Entertainer background may be tempting for a Jem/Jerica character, the best option is probably Faceless from BG:DiA. If allowed in an Eberron campaign, of course.


Powers &8^]

[Corran]

Assassin could perhaps mix well with a whispers bard (overlap between changeling and mantle of whispers) who sacrifices 1 or two magical secrets for that. But glamour bard sounds better for what you are describing IMO. I like loki_ragnarock's idea of using a mastermind instead of assassin, at least thematically. Mechanically, the bonus languages and tool proficiencies are pretty handy, but it puts too much pressure on your already busy (cause glamour bard) bonus actions. And there's also significant overlap between master of intrigue and between being a changeling anyway. So unless you really need every extra language (changelings can put to great use knowing more languages obviously, so consider carefully which and how many languages your character would really profit from knowing in this campaign) and tool proficiency you can get your hands on, I'd avoid mastermind too (though again, I'll admit that it fits nicely regarding the character's theme). I think I'd avoid rogue altogether. Bard levels will give you expertise anyway (on anything but thieves' tools), and 2 rogue levels just for cunning action sounds a bit expensive (especially considering that your bonus actions will be busy on a regular basis). Just play a bard (and try to learn thieves' cant on your downtime, or ideally pick it as a background language if your DM is a very generous one).

Maybe consider a small dip in knowledge (or possibly in trickery) cleric (for better starting saves, armor, and evetually their CD), or a small dip in sorcerer for the subtle (and maybe the heightened, which is a bit meh, but could pair well with thematic picks like dominate X) metagic (subtle suggestion and detect thoughts are pretty good). Not great for combat, but it will give you an edge in certain social situations (and it will slightly ease your spell selection). Not sold on either of these, but they have some value.

I'd suggest taking a look at the observant feat too (if you are playing with feats that is). An eye for detail and a good instinct are great for spy-like characters. And the ability to read lips is very flavorful too. And potentially effective.

Take the friends cantrip and dont look back. It has negative consequences, which can lead to funny and maybe even beneficial situations, given your ability to impersonate others. Generally try to minimize your combat spells and fill your spell selection with whatever utility sounds fun and interesting for such a character. Want stuff like charm peron and suggestion? Or stuff like detect thoughts and scrying? Or stuff like illusory script and invisibility? Take a look at the spells a bard gets and see which are the ones that fit the character's theme and that you see yourself having fun with. Then comes the hard part, which is to try and fit as many of those as you can while also maintaining spells that will help you and your party during combat.