PDA

View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Need Help with a Barbarian Archetype (Bloodstorm Blade)



Edea
2020-08-26, 07:10 PM
I spoilered the main points of the path in question because they're not ready for use in play and haven't been flavored yet, but I wanted to get it out there now since I'm at a road-block for properly curbing my 'high-power' tendencies.

There are a lot of rule particulars that could make large swathes of this thing's benefits redundant or unnecessary. Also, I'm 100% sure this idea has been done before, so this is a big request for any homebrew references on doing something related to a 5e thrown weapon specialist.

Bloodstorm Style (3rd Level):
You treat any melee weapon with which you are proficient (except your unarmed strikes) as if it had the Thrown property, with range parameters of 30 (normal)/90 (long) (or its own range parameters if the weapon already has them, whichever is higher).
Whenever you throw a melee weapon as part of your Attack action, it automatically returns to you as part of that action. In addition, if the distance traveled by the thrown weapon is within its normal range, it returns quickly enough that you're able to use Extra Attack and other additional attack class features to make multiple throws with that weapon.
You no longer incur disadvantage for making thrown attacks with melee weapons while within 5 feet of a hostile creature, so long as those attacks are made using weapons with which you are proficient.
You can use your Reckless Attack class feature with thrown weapons.
Bloodstorm Rage (6th Level):
When raging and wielding a weapon with the Thrown property (including that imparted from Bloodstorm Style), you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against a single creature within the normal range of the weapon being wielded, as if the provoking creature were being threatened by you.
You can also now apply your rage damage bonus to thrown weapon attacks.
Bloodstorm Vortex (10th Level):
When throwing a melee weapon with which you are proficient, you can choose to forego any additional attacks you normally would have made with the weapon and instead make a single attack against any number of targets within the normal range of the weapon you're throwing.
Whenever you make a thrown weapon attack with a melee weapon with which you are proficient, you score a critical hit on a natural roll of 19 or 20.
Your thrown weapons can no longer be caught except by you, unless you choose otherwise for a given thrown weapon attack. If the thrown weapon would normally be snatched or otherwise diverted off-course, it instead returns harmlessly to your hand as if you'd merely missed with the attack.
Hurricane of Blades (14th Level):
While raging, whenever you have advantage on a thrown weapon attack roll (including from using your Reckless Attack class feature), you can choose to instead make two separate attack rolls against the target at a disadvantage.
My main/basic rules questions:

1) Do thrown melee weapons automatically come back to you, anyway, or is an ability that makes a thrown weapon return to you relevant? This archetype lets your thrown weapons come back to you, but I'm not sure if that's necessary or not.

2) Can an enemy attempt to catch melee weapons thrown at them? Is this a common ability or does it require a special set-up? There is an ability in the archetype that makes said weapons uncatchable except by you, but if that doesn't happen anyway then it's pointless.

3) Are attack rolls made with thrown weapons treated as melee or ranged? The Thrown property describes them as being 'ranged'; would that mean abilities which let thrown weapons do things normally restricted to melee weapon attacks (such as Reckless Attack, opportunity attacks, etc.) are useful and not redundant?

4) The last archetype ability is completely busted in its current form. What I want to emulate is 'bloodstorm blade eyes something that just sends him over the edge, he channels all of his remaining rage into his weapon, and then he just hurls his greataxe into the big baddie's face over-and-over-and-over again'. I tried representing that accurately, but while I know it's too much as-is, I also don't know how to nerf it without rendering it completely useless/lame. Would LOVE balance suggestions for keeping that 'ORAORAORAORA' feel, while not breaking the game's DPR balance into itty, bitty pieces.

nickl_2000
2020-08-27, 06:50 AM
I spoilered the main points of the path in question because they're not ready for use in play and haven't been flavored yet, but I wanted to get it out there now since I'm at a road-block for properly curbing my 'high-power' tendencies.

There are a lot of rule particulars that could make large swathes of this thing's benefits redundant or unnecessary. Also, I'm 100% sure this idea has been done before, so this is a big request for any homebrew references on doing something related to a 5e thrown weapon specialist.

Bloodstorm Style (3rd Level):
You treat any melee weapon with which you are proficient (except your unarmed strikes) as if it had the Thrown property, with range parameters of 30 (increment)/90 (maximum) (or its own range parameters if the weapon already has them, whichever is higher).
Whenever you throw a melee weapon as part of your Attack action, it automatically returns to you as part of that action. In addition, if the distance traveled by the thrown weapon is within its range increment, it returns quickly enough that you're able to use Extra Attack and other additional attack class features to make multiple throws with that weapon.
You no longer incur disadvantage for making thrown attacks with melee weapons while within 5 feet of a hostile creature, so long as those attacks are made using weapons with which you are proficient.
You can use your Reckless Attack class feature with thrown weapons.
Bloodstorm Rage (6th Level):
When raging and wielding a weapon with the Thrown property (including that imparted from Bloodstorm Style), you threaten all spaces within the range increment of said weapon and can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack as if the provoking target were within your reach.
You can also now apply your rage damage bonus to thrown weapon attacks.
Bloodstorm Vortex (10th Level):
When throwing a melee weapon with which you are proficient, you can choose to forego any additional attacks you normally would have made with the weapon and instead make a single attack against any number of targets within the range increment of the weapon you're throwing.
The critical threat range of all melee weapons you wield (with which you are proficient) also increases by 1 whenever you make a thrown weapon attack with them (20 -> 19-20, 19-20 -> 18-20, etc.).
Your thrown weapons can no longer be caught except by you, unless you choose otherwise for a given thrown weapon attack. If the thrown weapon would normally be snatched or otherwise diverted off-course, it instead returns harmlessly to your hand as if you'd merely missed with the attack.
Hurricane of Blades (14th Level):
You gain the ability to perform the dreaded hurricane of blades technique.
You can only choose to perform this technique while you are raging.
You must be wielding a melee weapon with which you are proficient and that can be thrown.
Choose a single target within the range increment of the weapon you're wielding for the technique.
Use your action to make an Attack and apply any additional attack rolls (such as from your Extra Attack feature) as normal. However, if any of these attack rolls successfully hit the target, you can choose to attack that target again, with the same thrown weapon and using the same Attack action.
For every consecutive attack you make, assign a cumulative -2 penalty to all attack rolls until the technique ends.
The technique ends either when all of your attack rolls for an attack miss the target, or the target has been slain.
Your rage immediately ends after the technique has been used.
Once you've used a Hurricane of Blades, you cannot do so again until you've taken a (short? long?) rest.
My main/basic rules questions:

1) Do thrown melee weapons automatically come back to you, anyway, or is an ability that makes a thrown weapon return to you relevant? This archetype lets your thrown weapons come back to you, but I'm not sure if that's necessary or not.

2) Can an enemy attempt to catch melee weapons thrown at them? Is this a common ability or does it require a special set-up? There is an ability in the archetype that makes said weapons uncatchable except by you, but if that doesn't happen anyway then it's pointless.

3) Are attack rolls made with thrown weapons treated as melee or ranged? The Thrown property describes them as being 'ranged'; would that mean abilities which let thrown weapons do things normally restricted to melee weapon attacks (such as Reckless Attack, opportunity attacks, etc.) are useful and not redundant?

4) The last archetype ability is completely busted in its current form. What I want to emulate is 'bloodstorm blade eyes something that just sends him over the edge, he channels all of his remaining rage into his weapon, and then he just hurls his greataxe into the big baddie's face over-and-over-and-over again'. I tried representing that accurately, but while I know it's too much as-is, I also don't know how to nerf it without rendering it completely useless/lame. Would LOVE balance suggestions for keeping that 'ORAORAORAORA' feel, while not breaking the game's DPR balance into itty, bitty pieces.

To answer your questions

1) No, thrown weapons do not come back to you automatically in 5e. There is also another problem with the thrown weapon build in 5e, specifically that you are technically only allowed to draw one weapon per turn as a "free object interaction." So, when you are dealing with a barbarian, they cannot draw and throw two daggers during their turn (this is handwaved by many DMs, but it is RAW). For a thrown weapon subclass, you will want to give an ability to overcome this

2) The Monk class gets deflect missiles at level 3, where they are allowed to catch any projectile and prevent damage (potentially all of them). I cannot think of a single example of a monster that has the ability to catch projectiles. There are spells that can stop ranged weapon attacks though.

3) When throwing a weapon you are making a ranged weapon attack. Throwing a weapon uses strength for the attack modifier and damage modifier unless the weapon is marked as finesse (in that case you can use strength or dexterity). Any weapon that is in the Ranged Weapon table in the PHB uses dexterity for attack modifier and damage modifier (dart, bows, blowgun, etc).

4) If you were to only allow one extra attack per negative modifier it wouldn't be all that bad. With bounded accuracy a -2 to hit is a significant amount. Add onto that only allowing it once per long rest and making it end rage, I think you are perfectly fine with this ability.


Hopefully this helps with some of the rules questions.

Edea
2020-08-27, 07:55 AM
It does! I feel like the abilities I put in weren't invalidated by basic rules changes from 3.5 to 5, thanks for telling me all of that.

Yakk
2020-08-27, 08:56 AM
3) When throwing a weapon you are making a ranged weapon attack. Throwing a weapon uses strength for the attack modifier and damage modifier unless the weapon is marked as finesse (in that case you can use strength or dexterity). Any weapon that is in the Ranged Weapon table in the PHB uses dexterity for attack modifier and damage modifier (dart, bows, blowgun, etc).
Technically Finesse lets you choose strength or dexterity (not "choose dexterity"), and darts are thrown ranged finesse weapons. So you can attack with strength using a dart.

For the OP:


The critical threat range of all melee weapons you wield (with which you are proficient) also increases by 1 whenever you make a thrown weapon attack with them (20 -> 19-20, 19-20 -> 18-20, etc.).
This isn't a thing in 5e.

Just state you critical on a natural 19 or 20.


This isn't a thing in 5e.

range increment
Not a term in 5e.

Hurricane of Blades
That is a hard no in 5e. Wrong kind of scaling.

When you have advantage, allow the character to split 1 attack with advantage into 2 attacks without advantage once on their turn is more the right scaling.

nickl_2000
2020-08-27, 08:58 AM
Technically Finesse lets you choose strength or dexterity (not "choose dexterity"), and darts are thrown ranged finesse weapons. So you can attack with strength using a dart.

Thank you for the clarification. I am not sure why, but I never realized this. Logically this makes perfect sense and was something that always confused me.

Yakk
2020-08-27, 09:01 AM
Thank you for the clarification. I am not sure why, but I never realized this. Logically this makes perfect sense and was something that always confused me.
Amusingly, you can use this to make a strength-based sharpshooter.

There are no other synergies for strength based ranged attacks sadly.

Edea
2020-08-27, 10:32 AM
Made some changes (found out it's 'normal' range and 'long' range).

Tvtyrant
2020-08-27, 11:53 AM
I feel like you should be able to recklessly attack at range at level 6 or 10. Then if you include Yakk's improvement on Hurricane you can double your attacks in return for having disadvantage and enemies having advantage against you.

Old Harry MTX
2020-08-27, 03:12 PM
You should add a feature similar to Eldritch Knight's Weapon Bond that let you teleport the weapon back in your hand after each launch.

Tvtyrant
2020-08-27, 03:25 PM
You should add a feature similar to Eldritch Knight's Weapon Bond that let you teleport the weapon back in your hand after each launch.

That was part of the original class, it would definitely make whatever magic item you have more viable.

For normal weapons I wouldn't worry too much, you throw with one hand and hold however many throwing weapons in the off hand. It's not like you have to draw as you throw.

Edea
2020-08-27, 08:11 PM
That's true, the 'automatically returns to you' bit could just be a teleportation effect, would make the presentation a lot cleaner/easier to understand. "The primal energies suffusing your thrown weapons draw them into the spiritual realm and back to your hands after having made impact", or something like that.

Old Harry MTX
2020-08-28, 01:05 AM
That's true, the 'automatically returns to you' bit could just be a teleportation effect, would make the presentation a lot cleaner/easier to understand. "The primal energies suffusing your thrown weapons draw them into the spiritual realm and back to your hands after having made impact", or something like that.

Exactly, is a lot way cleaner than a boomerang effect.

At high levels I would also like a rebound attack system, kind of like the Chain Lighting spell works. A certain number of times per short rest you can use this feature that allows you, after each successful thrown attack, to perform another attack if there is a creature that you can see within a certain range from the previous hit. The chain is broken on the first failure, range decreases after each attack, and you can't target a creature that's been hit less than two rebounds before.

Also, this subclass seems a bit too battle centered, but the only out of combat things that come to mind are the masterful use of a grappling hook to climb and stage a juggling show to distract or entertain ...

Breccia
2020-08-30, 12:27 PM
I worry that the 6th level ability "You threaten" is too strong, because somewhere in some Feat or magic item or whatever there's going to be an ability to let you hit everyone in your threatened reach, or some other OP combo you haven't thought of.

Could I persuade you instead to make it more specific? "As a Reaction, if some fool chump tries to move or cast a spell..." or something, just to close that loophole?

Edea
2020-08-30, 06:32 PM
I worry that the 6th level ability "You threaten" is too strong, because somewhere in some Feat or magic item or whatever there's going to be an ability to let you hit everyone in your threatened reach, or some other OP combo you haven't thought of.

Could I persuade you instead to make it more specific? "As a Reaction, if some fool chump tries to move or cast a spell..." or something, just to close that loophole?

Oh, yeah, the intention's just a single target, whoops.

Will try to re-write.