How overpowered would "Extra Cantrip" be?

[Edea]

Let's say the PHB sorcerer (and only the sorcerer, no other casting classes) got this additional ability at 5th level, leaving everything else exactly the same.

Extra Cantrip: Beginning at 5th level, you can cast two cantrips, instead of one, whenever you use an action to cast a cantrip on your turn.

How overpowered or irrelevant is this, in your opinion?

[Tvtyrant]

Let's say the PHB sorcerer (and only the sorcerer, no other casting classes) got this additional ability at 5th level, leaving everything else exactly the same.

Extra Cantrip: Beginning at 5th level, you can cast two cantrips, instead of one, whenever you use an action to cast a cantrip on your turn.

How overpowered or irrelevant is this, in your opinion?

Why Sorcerer?

It's a neat ability, I have made some homebrew around one like it for a custom class. I'm not sure what need the Sorcerer has of it, or how it fits their fluff.

It depends on if it works with Quicken I think. If it's a subclass ability and you can't quicken a third spell in it is strong but not broken, like getting a 1st level spell every round.

[Edea]

I feel like if any magic class was able to twist its spells around like that it'd be the sorc. Also, IMO that class needs a core-to-the-chassis bone thrown at it that doesn't involve sorcery points; still deliberating what form said bone would take (this might be it for me, personally, I dunno yet).

Also there might be some degenerate cantrip combinations, or maybe it's too easy to dip (I think 5th level's deep enough?).

It would function with Quicken normally as-written (cast your bonus action spell, then use your action to cast a cantrip, setting off Extra Cantrip), so maybe the Quicken Spell metamagic option would have noted 'your Extra Cantrip feature doesn't function on a turn where you cast a spell using this metamagic option' or something.

[JNAProductions]

It'd literally double their at-will damage.

Compare to a Fighter:

Fighter 5-Greatsword, GWF
+7 to-hit, for 2d6+4 damage (rerolling 1s and 2s), twice

Sorcerer 5-Red Draconic
+7 to-hit, for 2d10+4 damage, twice

It's not even close. Hell, take away the +4 damage and you STILL meet the average damage of a Greatsword Fighter (though not one with GWF), at range.

I'm assuming you'd make it ONLY work with Sorcerer cantrips, because even if it requires 5 levels of Sorcerer, if it worked with any cantrip, then Eldritch Blast would net you 4d10+16 damage at level 7.

[Composer99]

It makes 2 levels of warlock look really good, for eldritch blast plus agonising blast.

At 7th level, you're looking at up to 4d10+12 or 4d10+16 damage, depending on how many beams hit, with a higher potential upside with up to four chances to crit, instead of two.

[Greywander]

It'd literally double their at-will damage.
Correction: It quadruples their damage output.

All cantrips start scaling at 5th level, which already doubles their damage. For example, Fire Bolt goes from dealing 1d10 damage to 2d10. Letting you cast it twice then doubles it again, to a total of 4d10. At least when you twin a spell, you have to pick two targets, so there's no benefit if there's only one target, and the damage gets split making it no easier to focus down a specific enemy. Twinning also requires the spell to target only one creature, whereas this could be abused by spells such as EB, Create Bonfire (used as a lite AoE, dropped immediately), or Thunderclap.

I think the Twinned Spell metamagic does the same thing but more balanced. The real problem is sorcerers not getting enough metamagics. Twinned Spell is a strong pick, but there's a lot of competition and you can only choose two initially, four in total.

Now, if there were no cantrip scaling, then "Extra Cantrip" might have been implemented instead. But I think cantrip scaling was meant to be the magic version of Extra Attack.

[JNAProductions]

Correction: It quadruples their damage output.

I was talking about relative to a normal Sorcerer 5 (or higher level).

Not relative to a Sorcerer 4.

[Edea]

...does everyone and their mother dip warlock in this edition? This seems extremely problematic.

But yeah, restriction to sorcerer cantrips seems pretty obvious.

Maybe specify the same cantrip can't be cast twice with the feature, or force it to only affect a target once per turn (so you'd be able to aim two cantrips at two different targets, or use one cantrip on yourself and aim the other at a target, but you wouldn't be able to aim both at the same target or both on yourself; cantrips without targets wouldn't be held back by the restriction).

[JNAProductions]

What problem are you trying to solve?

Any caster with a combat cantrip and a decent casting stat has okay at-will damage. Not great, barring weird circumstances (totally surrounded with Thunderclap or Word of Radiance) but adequate.

But most people who use cantrips with any regularity are also, as in this case with the Sorcerer, full casters. Meaning they have a ton of higher level spells. Meaning they don't need, and indeed, SHOULD NOT HAVE at-will capabilities on par with that of Fighters.

This seems like needless inflation.

[Edea]

What problem are you trying to solve?

Trying to figure out a core class feature for Sorcs that isn't a ribbon ability and doesn't key off their already over-taxed sorcery points.

[JNAProductions]

Trying to figure out a core class feature for Sorcs that isn't a ribbon ability and doesn't key off their already over-taxed sorcery points.

Okay.

If that is your goal, then this is a terrible method to do that. Find something that interacts with casting actual spells, or find something unique for each subclass (since Sorcerer subclasses are a pretty big part of their identity).

[JeenLeen]

Trying to figure out a core class feature for Sorcs that isn't a ribbon ability and doesn't key off their already over-taxed sorcery points.

I'm not sure how good an idea this is or not, and I can see potential abuses*, but what about something like regenerate a sorcery point if they take 25% of their HP in damage. I can see it fluffed as the magical energy invigorating and surging forth in them as they get in dangerous situations.
Maybe limit it to regenerating up their maximum sorcery points per day/rest.

*Potential abuses: doing it out-of-combat via allies, with a relatively cheap healing source available

Doesn't exactly fit "not key off their ... sorcery points", but as it's regenerating them and not using them, might still work nicely. I haven't looked at the sorcerer closely enough to know if this would be too powerful.

[Edea]

Find something that interacts with casting actual spells, or find something unique for each subclass (since Sorcerer subclasses are a pretty big part of their identity).

...hmm.

Metaspell Focus:
At 5th level, choose one 1st level sorcerer spell that you know.
When casting that spell, you can apply a metamagic option that you know such that it consumes one less sorcery point than normal (to a minimum of 0).
You can use this ability a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier. After finishing a long rest, you regain all uses of this ability and can re-assign which known sorcerer spells are affected (of the indicated levels or lower; see below). (Your Cha mod is your TOTAL number of uses available, not number of uses available for each spell selected; not sure how to word that)
At 7th(2nd), 9th(3rd), 11th(4th), and 13th(5th) levels, you choose to apply this benefit to one additional sorcerer spell of the indicated level (or lower) that you know.
At 15th level, you regain all uses of this ability after taking a short or a long rest.
What about something like this?

...then I guess I should also consider whether to add the "replace 1 spell known after a long rest" and the "regain some sorcery points once per short rest per day by spending a hit die" ideas.

[Composer99]

...hmm.

Metaspell Focus:

At 5th level, choose one 1st level sorcerer spell that you know.
When casting that spell, you can apply a metamagic option that you know such that it consumes one less sorcery point than normal (to a minimum of 0).
You can use this ability a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier. After finishing a long rest, you regain all uses of this ability and can re-assign which known sorcerer spells are affected (of the indicated levels or lower; see below). (Your Cha mod is your TOTAL number of uses available, not number of uses available for each spell selected; not sure how to word that)
At 7th(2nd), 9th(3rd), 11th(4th), and 13th(5th) levels, you choose to apply this benefit to one additional sorcerer spell of the indicated level (or lower) that you know.
At 15th level, you regain all uses of this ability after taking a short or a long rest.

What about something like this?

...then I guess I should also consider whether to add the "replace 1 spell known after a long rest" and the "regain some sorcery points once per short rest per day by spending a hit die" ideas.

Seems kind of finicky?

You could probably just get to apply discounted metamagic a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum one time), without having to pick specific spells in advance.

Also, I'm not sure you need to add full-on short rest recovery at 15th level; this feature is already improving as you gain levels on account of being able to apply to higher-level spells as you go. If you really want to add more uses, I'd suggest just increasing the total number of uses, maybe to 1 + Cha at 11th and 2 + Cha at 17th.

Something like:

Starting at 5th level, whenever you use a metamagic option while casting a sorcerer spell, you can reduce the sorcery point cost of using that metamagic by 1, to a minimum of 0 sorcery points. You can use this feature up to a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum once), regaining expended uses after finishing a long rest.

[JNAProductions]

Couldn’t you just give SP equal to your Charisma mod, and have the same effect?

[Edea]

Couldn’t you just give SP equal to your Charisma mod, and have the same effect?

Ehh, no, I think that's a bit much. The sorcerer would be able to craft new spell slots out of that.

EDIT: Also that might mess with the 'you can only hold this many sorcery points at once' part, like...

Maybe I should just scale what level of spell the feature can apply to according to sorcerer level, instead of picking specific spells? I mostly wanted to prevent the character blowing all the free metamagic on the top-tier spell slots.

Also, maybe uses should be 1/2 sorcerer level and just the long-rest recharge? That way there's a few more uses of the feature to play with as you gain levels and it's less vulnerable to dipping.

[JNAProductions]

No, that's a bit much. The sorcerer would be able to craft spell slots out of that.

And Arcane Recovery exists. An extra 3rd level slot per day at 8th level won't break the game.

[Edea]

I mean, 1/day Cha mod SP regain on short rest I guess could be a thing? That's definitely stronger than what I was suggesting before, I thought people didn't like that very much (there was talk of spending a hit die for it).

[AdAstra]

The idea of being able to spend hit dice for sorcery points seems like a quite elegant and thematic solution. You're literally tapping into your body's reserves for more magical power. I would probably cap max sorcery points regained per rest based on Sorcerer level (maybe 1/2 level), stipulate that you need to use sorcerer hit dice to reduce the power of multiclasses, and change out the 20th level ability so that it's less disappointing in general, but also so that it doesn't overlap. I trialed a change that might fit there well, but there are plenty of other options.

(in case you're curious, my proposed level 20 change was to basically give a "free" sorcery point you can use for metamagic once on each of your turns, so that you can use cheap metamagic semi at-will, and use less for the things that cost more)

[Edea]

The idea of being able to spend hit dice for sorcery points seems like a quite elegant and thematic solution. You're literally tapping into your body's reserves for more magical power. I would probably cap max sorcery points regained per rest based on Sorcerer level (maybe 1/2 level), stipulate that you need to use sorcerer hit dice to reduce the power of multiclasses, and change out the 20th level ability so that it's less disappointing in general, but also so that it doesn't overlap. I trialed a change that might fit there well, but there are plenty of other options.

(in case you're curious, my proposed level 20 change was to basically give a "free" sorcery point you can use for metamagic once on each of your turns, so that you can use cheap metamagic semi at-will, and use less for the things that cost more)

I do sort-of like the idea, definitely agree with sorcerer hit dice only on that; I'm starting to get a bit irritated with how vulnerable certain classes are to 'dipping', and how that adversely affects the ways in which other classes might be improved (warlock in particular's wearing my patience thin).

[Old Harry MTX]

Some weeks ago I created a full cantrip bard variant that at level 7th learns to cast two cantrips with an action, but the second is casted at a level equal to the bard's level - 6. It solves a lot of problems:
The average damage progression of two cantrips like Eldritch Blast + Firebolt is slightly lower than a warlock's eldritch blast + agonizing blast, and it is also more subject to fluctuations.
In case of Multiclass, the second cantrip depends only on the level that you take in this class, avoiding it to become a must have feature to dip into.
I've also add a Multiclass note to specify that is not possible to use the feature with something that enhance the cantrips damage, such as Agonizing Blast or Empowered Evocation.

Take a look if you want, you can find it here (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/zjrZDxvmI).

[Tvtyrant]

Some weeks ago I created a full cantrip bard variant that at level 7th learns to cast two cantrips with an action, but the second is casted at a level equal to the bard's level - 6. It solves a lot of problems:
The average damage progression of two cantrips like Eldritch Blast + Firebolt is slightly lower than a warlock's eldritch blast + agonizing blast, and it is also more subject to fluctuations.
In case of Multiclass, the second cantrip depends only on the level that you take in this class, avoiding it to become a must have feature to dip into.
I've also add a Multiclass note to specify that is not possible to use the feature with something that enhance the cantrips damage, such as Agonizing Blast or Empowered Evocation.

Take a look if you want, you can find it here (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/zjrZDxvmI).

I just made mine so it couldn't target the same creatures or be the same cantrip. Defocused damage is way less effective than focused damage.

[Old Harry MTX]

I just made mine so it couldn't target the same creatures or be the same cantrip. Defocused damage is way less effective than focused damage.
I don't know. First of all, I don't think it's necessary, but also how it behave if a cantrip have an area effect or, like in the case of Eldritch Blast, can targets multiple creatures?

[Tvtyrant]

I don't know. First of all, I don't think it's necessary, but also how it behave if a cantrip have an area effect or, like in the case of Eldritch Blast, can targets multiple creatures?

It can't cover the same creatures or target the same multiples. It's not complicated, and I would prefer that to nerfing the damage into the ground.

Another way to do it would be to make a short list of non-damage cantrips and put "whenever you cast a spell or cantrip you may as part of the same action cast one of these." Free Virtue, Spare the Dying, or Minor Illusion each turn would be a cool bonus without stepping on the DPS shoes.

[AdAstra]

One easy-ish non-intrusive way to reduce the power of warlock dips is to base the progression of Agonizing Blast (as in, the evocation) on warlock level. So when you first get it it applies to only one blast. At warlock level 5 you can apply it to two blasts, and so on. This means that single-classed warlocks are unaffected, while multiclassed warlocks get a strong, but not overly strong cantrip.

[Old Harry MTX]

One easy-ish non-intrusive way to reduce the power of warlock dips is to base the progression of Agonizing Blast (as in, the evocation) on warlock level. So when you first get it it applies to only one blast. At warlock level 5 you can apply it to two blasts, and so on. This means that single-classed warlocks are unaffected, while multiclassed warlocks get a strong, but not overly strong cantrip.

Or maybe use a system like that of the old ToB maneuvers, and make levels in other classes count as half the warlock levels.

[Crim the Cold]

I would like to provide my own suggestion on how to increase the classes power that makes use of its key feature, sorcery points.

Conservative Casting

Wizards relying on their knowledge of the arcane just can't feel magic the way sorcerers do. They can use it but it isn't a part of them the way it is for sorcerers.

At 5th level, the sorcerer has gotten a better feel for how to cast spells using their inborn talent. The sorcerer can now recover a portion of the magic they use to construct spells. They can then reuse this magic for other purposes such as empowering other spells or utilizing enough of it craft another spell beyond their normal limits. Whenever a sorcerer casts a spell of 1st level or higher without using metamagic they recover a portion of the used magic energy in the form of a sorcery point.

At 11th level, the sorcerer's understanding of casting spells improves even further. The sorcerer can now recover an even greater portion of the magic they use to construct more powerful spells. Whenever a sorcerer casts a spell of 6th level or higher without using metamagic they recover a portion of the used magic energy in the form of 2 sorcery points.

At 20th level, the sorcerer's understanding of casting spells has improved greatly. They look back at their first fumbling steps when they discovered their gift and can hardly believe they were that clumsy with their magic. The sorcerer can now recover a greater portion of the magic they use to construct all of their spells. Whenever a sorcerer casts a spell of 1st level or higher without using metamagic they recover a portion of the used magic energy in the form of 2 sorcery points.

[Old Harry MTX]

Also in this days I was thinking at another possible way to cast two cantrips, and I come out with something like this:"At Nth level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can use your bonus action and expend a spell slot to cast a second cantrip different from the first at a level equal to twice the level of the spell slot", where the parts in italic are optional.

But after some quick math it's clear that is not convenient to spend high level slots to do that. Maybe it can be useful for a bard, that have to prepare its spells and this should give it more versatility, but surely not for a sorcerer.

[Tvtyrant]

Here's a brief Monk version of this I was thinking about.

Heaven's Successor Monk

Level 3: Gains 3 Cantrips, plus 1 per additional level of Heaven's Successor.

Level 6: May use a ki to cast a cantrip as a bonus action if you haven't cast this turn.

Level 11: May use a ki to cast a cantrip even if you cast another cantrip this turn, but must be different cantrips and not share targets.

level 17: Knows all cantrips.

It turns the Monk into a Gish without adding a lot of complexity or new mechanics.

[lukethecat2003]

Let's say the PHB sorcerer (and only the sorcerer, no other casting classes) got this additional ability at 5th level, leaving everything else exactly the same.

Extra Cantrip: Beginning at 5th level, you can cast two cantrips, instead of one, whenever you use an action to cast a cantrip on your turn.

How overpowered or irrelevant is this, in your opinion?
multiclassing EK with booming blade and lvl 5 sorc, thats at 7EK 5 SORC, 1 attack with 2 booming blades. I would LOVE this as an EK. gets much worse as you progress to 11 ek, but still