Advice to handle a party with no front-line or heals?

[Falcii]

I'm playing with a group of 3-4 (more on that later) friends and we finally sat down for a session zero the other day. We came together and figured out player backstories first and then worked on stats and classes from there, making sure they fell in line with what all the players wanted to have as toolkits for their new characters. 1 of the prospective players was only added in after the fact and she may or may not even be playing with us but she certainly seems interested because she has already been asking about allowable races. The party dynamic socially is *fantastic*. I am thrilled about the game, but then I looked at our class makeup.

Rogue- probably inquisitive or mastermind
Sorceror- Shadow
Warlock- Genie
wild card

Now, yes, i could see a perfect world where the last player picks a paladin or a cleric and fixes everything without issue, but given the races she was asking about, i am predicting a ranger or rogue. so i need to figure out how to run a game for a group with absolutely zero frontline. My immediate thought is sticking to infiltration things, or having them combat primarily other spellcasters (not the biggest problem in the world) but i was wondering if there are any guidelines the fine folks here at GitPG use when they are running with an unbalanced group.

Please for the love of god dont make me run a dmpc

[cutlery]

You can always add an NPC whose job it is to take hits and deliver plot hooks.

[Falcii]

You can always add an NPC whose job it is to take hits and deliver plot hooks.

I will refer you to my hidden text at the bottom there


Please for the love of god dont make me run a dmpc

Thank you tho, i will consider it

[Jamesps]

You could let the players figure out a solution. Maybe they decide to hire someone to help out? Maybe they adopt a set of tactics optimized for their group?

I'd at least give them a shot of solving their own issues before you step in.

[Griswold]

I've DMed for a party that was just two characters:


Longbow Battlemaster Fighter
Dual-wield Hunter Ranger


Neither was really a front line, and the ranger never took the healing spirit spell. They used short rests for healing and since this was Adventurers League with nothing else to spend their money on, just bought a million healing potions. No problems.

I think 5E is a lot more forgiving about party composition than it's given credit for. That and the published adventures are cakewalks.

[Kyutaru]

Heals are just a way to recover between fights when you're not doing the job efficiently. They can be replaced by potions if necessary. Give them medical options if you really want to.

But with this type of group, you don't even need to. This is a covert ops stealth team. A shadow sorcerer specializes in darkness and can see through it. A warlock has all the dark magic and devil's sight perks. Rogues hide in darkness and Rangers can ambush/snipe. You basically have the A-team here with a leader, a face, a crazy guy, and the muscle. So let them put a plan together and dispatch targets through stealth and distraction. If they eliminate targets before combat even starts then the remaining ones will be easier to deal with. These are all high damage classes so they can handle a few short rounds of pure destruction and burst damage.

What it comes down to is being lenient in allowing their strategies to take on unsuspecting foes as opposed to barging in guns blazing. The ranger can shoot specialized arrows to distract guards or take them out. Give him an assortment of Hawkeye's tactical arrows. The Thief series even had water arrows for taking out torches. The rogue can get in close for a sneak attack or two and maybe you let him do some autokills if he manages to catch a guard alone and from behind. The casters can assist with any obstacles or distract foes long enough for the others to deal with them. Invisibility, stealth, darkness, magical sight, these will all come into play to hamper foes and give the team the advantage. If the rogue and ranger can't see in the dark too then make sure they find or buy some goggles of night.

[LudicSavant]

Get the herbalism skill and invest in some potions using the XGtE Herbalism rules.

Consider the Healer and/or Inspiring Leader feats.

[Glorthindel]

You could always kill them and hope someone creates a tankier character afterwards.

Ok, I'm joking. But only a bit. Keeping characters alive is only partially your responsibility, but it is also partially (I would say mostly) theirs. At the end of the day, how to survive is their problem to solve, and it is entirely possible with subclasses and multiclassing that they can fix the problem themselves, but they will only know there is a problem if you show it them.

Give them an early encounter with something big and tough, but in a situation where even if they all get wiped out, its not game over (tournament, taken captive, etc); several combat rounds of fleeing in circles trying to bring a tough guy down with no-one capable of holding it up while the others beat on it, and they will see their problem. Once they have seen the problem, and have time to consider it (and come up with their own means to mitigate the situation), you can bring in solutions of your own for them to take advantage of.

Personally, I would bridge the gap with magic items - a wand of cure wounds would solve the healing problem, and maybe an item that summons a tanky automata/beast (with little to no actual damage capability) would solve the lack of a body-blocker. Alternatively, if a character looks like they want to take on the role, provide tweaks or special items that allow them to adopt the role without destroying their image of the character (say, give the Ranger a very tanky animal companion, give the Sorcerer access to off-list spells, or have the rogue find some armours that give him a better AC/Dex trade-off, or a "spiked buckler" that he can use as a shield and an off-hand weapon)

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Front line is over rated.
Healing can be done with potions and only need to be used for yoyo in this edition because healing was nerfed to the ground.

bring the healbot role back, I really miss the ability to play an effective healbot

[Hael]

A druid or ranger could tank. The Druid either through summon tanking or as a moon Druid. The ranger with a shield and UA class variant is passable.

[MoiMagnus]

1) Give them access to info / preparation time / opportunity to set up fight at their advantage.
A party with no front-line and heals can leads to TPK on a miscommunication between you and them. So don't hesitate to use their Wisdom score to give them some insight on when fighting is suicide. (Some players are really bad at estimating their chances at winning a fight, as they make assumptions on your DMing style that might not be true).

2) Balancing might be harder than usual. In my limited experience, teams like that tend to go through the enemies without difficulties most of the time (including avoiding fight with stealth or diplomacy), until something gets wrong then everything fall apart and you almost get a TPK. So you need to be careful to not overcompensate when increasing the difficulty. Just because things seemingly went "perfectly" doesn't necessary mean they were far away from complete failure.

[Unoriginal]

so i need to figure out how to run a game for a group with absolutely zero frontline.

If I may offer an alternate viewpoint: you don't *have* to figure out anything.

You're the DM. Present the challenges of the world, let the PCs (and players) figure out how they want to handle it.


My advice would be to have some small encounters at the start of the campaign showcasing their strengths and their weaknesses, to teach them what their group is able to do.

Furthermore, make sure they know that a) running when they can't handle an encounter is ok (that also applies to group with frontliners, of course, but it's still good to make sure the players know) b) they can often choose the kind of jobs they'll be doing and how to do them.

Not having any frontliners doesn't make for the usual D&D handling of the issues, true, but I find that it's much better to see how they handle a variety of adventuring situations their own way rather than tailor all or even most encounters specifically for them. Oftentime, it's in the moments the PCs are handling difficulties they're not used to or not build for that they truly shine.

[Corran]

If I may offer an alternate viewpoint: you don't *have* to figure out anything.

You're the DM. Present the challenges of the world, let the PCs (and players) figure out how they want to handle it.
This. I'd add that you could also just inform them of your concern and after that it's up to them to evaluate it and decide if it's worth doing anything about it. Dont worry about the few things players are responsible for, worry about everything else.

[Reynaert]

If I may offer an alternate viewpoint: you don't *have* to figure out anything.

You're the DM. Present the challenges of the world, let the PCs (and players) figure out how they want to handle it.


My advice would be to have some small encounters at the start of the campaign showcasing their strengths and their weaknesses, to teach them what their group is able to do.

Furthermore, make sure they know that a) running when they can't handle an encounter is ok (that also applies to group with frontliners, of course, but it's still good to make sure the players know) b) they can often choose the kind of jobs they'll be doing and how to do them.

Not having any frontliners doesn't make for the usual D&D handling of the issues, true, but I find that it's much better to see how they handle a variety of adventuring situations their own way rather than tailor all or even most encounters specifically for them. Oftentime, it's in the moments the PCs are handling difficulties they're not used to or not build for that they truly shine.

I partially disagree, because:
- In my experience a lot of encounters are written to start way too close to the PCs when really they should have started a couple tens of feet earlier, which disadvantages this team tremendously.
- A lot of DMs I've seen tend to handwave battlefield positioning a bit, but this group really needs this to be a lot more precise so they can work to stay out of reach.

[Unoriginal]

This. I'd add that you could also just inform them of your concern and after that it's up to them to evaluate it and decide if it's worth doing anything about it. Dont worry about the few things players are responsible for, worry about everything else.

Very good points.



- In my experience a lot of encounters are written to start way too close to the PCs when really they should have started a couple tens of feet earlier, which disadvantages this team tremendously.

Not sure what you mean by "they should have started a couple tens of feet earlier". Would you mind explaining some more, please?



- A lot of DMs I've seen tend to handwave battlefield positioning a bit, but this group really needs this to be a lot more precise so they can work to stay out of reach.

I mean, that's not special preparations, it's just not handwaving the positioning.

[Sigreid]

You could let the players figure out a solution. Maybe they decide to hire someone to help out? Maybe they adopt a set of tactics optimized for their group?

I'd at least give them a shot of solving their own issues before you step in.

This. It's their challenge to figure out how to work together. As far as hiring or recruiting an NPC, I typically let one of them run the recruit.

[Keravath]

There are lots of options ... the biggest issue is that without healing they are a more fragile group in challenging combat encounters when a character goes down. Healing word is a decent remedy to this most of the time.

However ...

1) Healing potions (try to give them all at least one due to story events - explain their use and the players will figure out when to use them - this is an insurance policy against bad die rolls).

2) Go somewhat easy on heavy melee combat encounters. Ease into it and see how it goes. I would not leave them out but don't throw in too many to start with. There are two reasons - if the party is mostly ranged characters then they will have disadvantage on any ranged attack as soon as an opponent is adjacent. This could make four goblins each attacking one of the players a challenge for this party. However, the players may surprise you and come up with some reasonable tactics to help them out in this kind of situation.

3) If you are starting at level 1 - get to 2 as soon as reasonably possible. The extra hit points and abilities help to offset the vagaries of die rolls.

4) Add an NPC (not a dmpc). I ran a party through Sunless Citadel and an NPC cleric from the module joined the party for a while. The party had a moon druid but they typically wild shaped for combat - so the only healing was the potions they had acquired and a couple of cure wounds from the NPC. The NPC though was a useful insurance policy that came in handy a couple of times when a character was knocked unconscious. After Sunless Citadel, the cleric went their own way ... however, the party was more or less begging him to stay and were looking into recruiting a cleric in town to accompany them. (The players in this case started with AD&D so have an ingrained need to have a cleric in the party :) ).

[Glorthindel]

I partially disagree, because:
- In my experience a lot of encounters are written to start way too close to the PCs when really they should have started a couple tens of feet earlier, which disadvantages this team tremendously.
- A lot of DMs I've seen tend to handwave battlefield positioning a bit, but this group really needs this to be a lot more precise so they can work to stay out of reach.

I feel this is one of the downsides of the battlemap; when you only have 30 squares on the long side (and a good number of those are obscured by players books and character sheets), and they are representing 5' each, it is easy for the Elf with the longbow to feel a bit screwed in wilderness encounters. And this is definitely something the DM can address if the party is majority ranged.

[cutlery]

I will refer you to my hidden text at the bottom there



Thank you tho, i will consider it

There are lots of things you can do with a character like this, and they needn't remain the same character through the whole campaign.

I guess a character like Amos from The Expanse would work well. He's not really a talker.

Alternately, you can just run things as planned and see what strategies the group comes up with. How bad can it go?

[Ionathus]

I had a very similar group dynamic with the first party I DMed for: they were all either ranged DPS or spellcasters, and I was very worried about front-lines! 5e is very forgiving about that sort of thing, though -- the classes are all versatile enough that they can adapt to cover their weaknesses.

As it turns out, someone in our party stepped up. People like to fill niches, and if something is left unclaimed (the one who mixes it up in the front lines, for instance), somebody will start to tailor their build to fill that role. Encourage whoever does that -- give them magic items that give higher defense, more HP, maybe something like the Sentinel or Grappler feat to lock enemies down.

P.S. Healing really isn't a problem -- that's why 5e included the short rest hit dice mechanic: so there'd be no "need" for a healer in the party.


Please for the love of god dont make me run a dmpc

They're only DMPCs if they're trying to outshine the players! There's absolutely nothing wrong with having an NPC who's tanky but does inconsequential damage, buffs your PCs, and soaks up attacks. Just don't ever take the spotlight. I wouldn't even roll for their actions.

Whether or not you want the extra bookkeeping is another thing entirely, and I understand if not.


If I may offer an alternate viewpoint: you don't *have* to figure out anything.

You're the DM. Present the challenges of the world, let the PCs (and players) figure out how they want to handle it.

This, 100%. My DMing became leagues better when I stopped planning the "solutions" to my scenarios, and just started presenting them as open-ended problems. Defining a single win state will lock you into thinking of the possible solutions as either "right" or "wrong" and that's where railroading comes in.

It's a roleplaying, problem-solving game! Start your encounters on the easier side, and let your PCs figure out what they need for themselves.

[Xervous]

The concept of frontlining only works as far as the GM will entertain it in most cases. Anything with ranged capabilities or high mobility can geek the mage, so called tanks and frontliners are generally about as sticky as a charged balloon. 5e acknowledges that, other classes have defenses and tools with which to get by, they just might not all be ones that let them spreadsheet over encounters.

[Eldariel]

Mobile CC heavy parties generally outperform frontline heavy parties particularly in open environments. As Unoriginal said: don't think about the party, just present challenges. They either can or can't solve them: that part is on them and if they feel it, they'll do all the better.

[Warlush]

I've been playing for about 5 years now and a DM for the last 2. I've had 1 character death and 0 TPKs. I'm aware that this is anecdotal, but I just don't think TPKs are that common. I also don't think they are the end of the world, or even the end of the imaginary world in which the characters die.
I think you should throw an encounter at them the likes of which scare even you the DM. I bet you five bucks they win.

[Hal]

I will refer you to my hidden text at the bottom there



Thank you tho, i will consider it

This doesn't have to be a DMPC. If you use the Sidekick rules (https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/UA_Sidekicks.pdf), you could give them a warrior animal sidekick; you can go up to CR1 creatures. This would give you an NPC that would be combat proficient without being an actual person, with all the complications arising from that.

Plus, if this party is something of a shadowy infiltration team (or whatever) certain animals would be thematically appropriate: Panther, giant spider, some kind of hawk, etc.

[Unoriginal]

Also worth noting, just having a NPC with a NPC statblock help out isn't the same as a DMPC.

[MaxWilson]

I feel this is one of the downsides of the battlemap; when you only have 30 squares on the long side (and a good number of those are obscured by players books and character sheets), and they are representing 5' each, it is easy for the Elf with the longbow to feel a bit screwed in wilderness encounters. And this is definitely something the DM can address if the party is majority ranged.

There's no reason the longbow elf can't leave the battlemap. In such cases I just switch to tracking how far off the map they are. In rare cases I'll sketch another map just for them ("a grove of trees 100 yards away from the barn") but usually it just doesn't matter and I just say "X feet off the edge of the whiteboard."

Remember, the map is not the world. You can leave the map without leaving the world.


There are lots of things you can do with a character like this, and they needn't remain the same character through the whole campaign.

I guess a character like Amos from The Expanse would work well. He's not really a talker.

But whenever he does talk he's hilariously awesome. :)

[LibraryOgre]

I've been in a similar situation (it was Earthdawn, but it applies). Basically, they need to adjust their tactics to what they can do, rather than pretending they have a tank when what they really have is two jeeps dragging a howitzer.

[Snails]

If this party can learn to work together, there is a lot of potential for RP, exploration, and scouting/ambushing.

But simply kicking in doors and fighting cannot be their mainstay for gathering XP. Nor clearing out an entire dungeon complex by basic murder hobo means. They can try their hand here, but they are going end up burning through their HD, and will need to Long Rest quickly.

Ranger could actually work as a frontliner in this party, albeit it does not completely solve the issue. On the positive side, consider what Pass Without A Trace can do in a lightly armored party if more than just the Rogue also has Stealth.

[Dork_Forge]

Let them all start with a single standard healing potion, make them semi readily available for purchase (I tend to roll a die to determine stock, to prevent spamming) and let them figure it out from there. There's plenty of feats and dips to grab healing down the line if need be, or just give them a NPC servant/footman that has the Healer feat and is just there to carry their bags and bandage their wounds.

[Unoriginal]

Anyone with Herbalist's Kit proficiency can make an Healing Potion in a day, too.

[Reynaert]

There's no reason the longbow elf can't leave the battlemap. In such cases I just switch to tracking how far off the map they are. In rare cases I'll sketch another map just for them ("a grove of trees 100 yards away from the barn") but usually it just doesn't matter and I just say "X feet off the edge of the whiteboard."

Remember, the map is not the world. You can leave the map without leaving the world.

I *think* that's my point, actually?

When you just place down a battlemap, most people will unconsciously be constrained by the edges.

By simply making explicit that it is, in fact, possible to go beyond the edges and still participate in the fight, you are enabling long-range PCs such as the party this thread is about.

So all it takes is for the DM to make this fact explicit. Still, they do need to take this step, and the OP certainly would need to with the party as described.

[heavyfuel]

Maybe I'm just an old crone, but I say "let the party handle it".

It's not your job, as DM, to make sure players survive. This is the party's job. You don't have to hold their hands and baby-sit adult players.

Let them figure it out.

This should be obvious, but I'll leave it here because someone is bound to (willfully or accidentally) misinterpret me: I'm not advocating purposefully killing your players. There's a huge gap between not pulling your punches and "rocks fall everyone dies"

[Miele]

I wouldn't bother asking a player to cover a certain role, make sure they know what they are facing, but even if the 4th character is a rogue or a Wizard, have them play to their strengths and form strategies around the proverbial campfire: kiting, AoE crowd control, using darkness from the sorcerer to cut off ranged opponents, learn to focus fire targets, etc.

If you want to have fun as a DM, don't have plots where you guide players through encounters until they reach your predetermined goal, just put a scenario down, they'll adapt and improvise, sometimes surprising you and making you play the game with them instead of just telling a convoluted story.

Say your group has 2 rogues, a sorcerer and a warlock, none of them able to take much of a beating. They picked the difficulty level of the game, your job is to make sure everything runs smoothly, even if one or two of them end up dead after a few sessions. Rerolls happen.

[Edea]

Maybe I'm just an old crone, but I say "let the party handle it".

This, IMO.

To be honest, it just takes one time getting grappled, pinned and [DATA EXPUNGED] as a ranged character to start reeeaaally wanting to mix-in martial capabilities, or at least some durability/tankiness. Let the players grow into that realization and just run things irrespective of their party composition.

[Kyutaru]

This, IMO.

To be honest, it just takes one time getting grappled, pinned and [DATA EXPUNGED] as a ranged character to start reeeaaally wanting to mix-in martial capabilities, or at least some durability/tankiness. Let the players grow into that realization and just run things irrespective of their party composition.

This. The typical turn for a giant goes like "Giant continues crushing Wizard to death in his arms; party still unable to break his grip."

I'm from the old school. We had to deal with ropers, tentacles, and getting swallowed whole. Always bring a Strong character.

[Edea]

I would also add that both the Sorc and the 'lock are shoe-ins for Paladin multis, and that'll fix their front-line/healing issues right quick.

[Eldariel]

This. The typical turn for a giant goes like "Giant continues crushing Wizard to death in his arms; party still unable to break his grip."

I'm from the old school. We had to deal with ropers, tentacles, and getting swallowed whole. Always bring a Strong character.

IME just having tools suffices. I've played an Alert Wizard. Alert lets you Hypnotic Pattern the Roper before it gets to act, Contingency away from the giant or just Misty Step or mind**** the enemy. Spellcasting is great: it just solves all your problems as long as you make sure you get to act (so Lucky and Alert). Though if it wants to grapple you just say Shapechange (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html) (though Polymorph into Giant Ape does much the same: who's grappling whom, sucka).

[opaopajr]

Letting players figure out their party composition's strengths and weaknesses -- and mitigating the setting's context to their favor -- is part of the fun! :smallcool: Play on! (Besides with Long Rest healing so generous and Short Rests tapping into HD Heals, most parties have more than enough HP, in my opinion. :smalltongue:)

At worst they just get skilled hirelings to add sheer numbers throughput and figure it out from there. :smallwink: Don't hold their hand, let them savor the consequences of their choices! It seems that is what they wanted to experience by their session 0 choices. :smallsmile:

[Reynaert]

This. The typical turn for a giant goes like "Giant continues crushing Wizard to death in his arms; party still unable to break his grip."

I'm from the old school. We had to deal with ropers, tentacles, and getting swallowed whole. Always bring a Strong character.

What level was this Wizard and why didn't they have Misty Step prepared?

[Unoriginal]

What level was this Wizard and why didn't they have Misty Step prepared?


Wizards don't automatically have the right spells for every single situation that might occur in an adventuring day, don't automatically have the right spells for every single situation in their spellbook to be prepared, and don't automatically have the spell slots to cast the spells they do have access.

[heavyfuel]

why didn't they have Misty Step prepared?

I can think of a few reasons, but my top pick would be because planning for failure can increase the likelyhood that you will fail.

A low-ish level wizard is probably better off picking a control spell that he's certain to use than a tactical teleport that he may or may not use.

Saving that Misty Step slot can mean you're not using Phantasmal Force on a dangerous enemy. This problem isn't nearly as big after like level 7, but before that it definitely exists.

[LibraryOgre]

Wizards don't automatically have the right spells for every single situation that might occur in an adventuring day, don't automatically have the right spells for every single situation in their spellbook to be prepared, and don't automatically have the spell slots to cast the spells they do have access.

Also? I think a DM would be justified calling for a concentration check to cast a spell while being actively crushed. Sure, the PH mentions it in the context of longer casting times, but if the thief says "I'm gonna ready my action to stab him in the taint if he casts a spell", I'd also require concentration to keep casting while someone is stabbing you in the taint. I think "I had trouble remembering the magic words because a giant was crushing my ribcage" is a valid idea, as well.

[Reynaert]

Also? I think a DM would be justified calling for a concentration check to cast a spell while being actively crushed. Sure, the PH mentions it in the context of longer casting times, but if the thief says "I'm gonna ready my action to stab him in the taint if he casts a spell", I'd also require concentration to keep casting while someone is stabbing you in the taint. I think "I had trouble remembering the magic words because a giant was crushing my ribcage" is a valid idea, as well.

Misty Step is a Voice-only, Bonus Action spell that is specifically designed to get out of such situations.

[cutlery]

Misty Step is a Voice-only, Bonus Action spell that is specifically designed to get out of such situations.

True that.

I don't think I'd ever have a wizard without it known and prepared, but it's just one slot of ~6 at low levels, and well worth it (see also: shield).

Your spells are your defense as well as your offense, so a couple of defensive spells known is a good idea.

[LibraryOgre]

Misty Step is a Voice-only, Bonus Action spell that is specifically designed to get out of such situations.

Giant hands are the size of barrels and can crush your lungs to make you unable to speak. It may not be how you play it, but it's not like all of the damage of being crushed for a round happens in an instant, and has no effect on the initiative count preceding and following.

[Knaight]

They'll be fine. Ranged combat is as good as it's ever been in D&D, they're going to need to keep their distance. It's probably worth swapping to finer graph paper than you normally do as a logistical accommodation for how this group is inevitably going to end up fighting, but that's about it.

[BoxANT]

if they die they die

the challenge of overcoming sub optimal can be a rewarding aspect of play, let them figure it out

make healing potions accessible, and recommend the healer feat.

and if a PC dies or the party wipes? well then they have learned a valuable lesson

[Eldariel]

Wizards don't automatically have the right spells for every single situation that might occur in an adventuring day, don't automatically have the right spells for every single situation in their spellbook to be prepared, and don't automatically have the spell slots to cast the spells they do have access.

The beauty of Wizard spells is that there's like 5 spells that make you prepared for just about anything so it's pretty easy to just file that away in your level 1 pile and start adding varied offense from there. Once you have Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Misty Step and Counterspell, you're pretty golden defensively. Add Invisibility and maybe Fly/Levitate and that's about all you need. That's what, 7 out of the 9-10 spells you can prepare on level 5. Toss in Web and e.g. Hypnotic Pattern and Dragon's Breath and it's a pretty solid spell loadout.

[Dork_Forge]

The beauty of Wizard spells is that there's like 5 spells that make you prepared for just about anything so it's pretty easy to just file that away in your level 1 pile and start adding varied offense from there. Once you have Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Misty Step and Counterspell, you're pretty golden defensively. Add Invisibility and maybe Fly/Levitate and that's about all you need. That's what, 7 out of the 9-10 spells you can prepare on level 5. Toss in Web and e.g. Hypnotic Pattern and Dragon's Breath and it's a pretty solid spell loadout.

It's also a spell loadout that has no consideration for learning spells on level up. You're talking about level 5 where (assuming Int +4) a Wizard has 14 spells in their spell book and can prepare 9 of them. What your example doesn't take into condsideration that of your 14 spells, 8 have to be 1st level and only two can be 3rd level. The number of each spell level in your example:

1st: 3

2nd: 4 (5 if levitate) this is actually possible if you don't include levitate

3rd: 2 (3 if Fly) this is where you're just not getting what you want, you have either Fly or Levitate, but if you take either you need to drop either a 2nd level spell or a 3rd level spell. Then your offense only really amounts to Dragon's Breath and whatever spells you want to pick up from 1st level spells (though since 1st is crammed with utility spells that won't be the easiest of decisions, the whole strong suit of a Wizard is versatility after all...)

[Eldariel]

It's also a spell loadout that has no consideration for learning spells on level up. You're talking about level 5 where (assuming Int +4) a Wizard has 14 spells in their spell book and can prepare 9 of them. What your example doesn't take into condsideration that of your 14 spells, 8 have to be 1st level and only two can be 3rd level. The number of each spell level in your example:

1st: 3

2nd: 4 (5 if levitate) this is actually possible if you don't include levitate

3rd: 2 (3 if Fly) this is where you're just not getting what you want, you have either Fly or Levitate, but if you take either you need to drop either a 2nd level spell or a 3rd level spell. Then your offense only really amounts to Dragon's Breath and whatever spells you want to pick up from 1st level spells (though since 1st is crammed with utility spells that won't be the easiest of decisions, the whole strong suit of a Wizard is versatility after all...)

IME if you do your control job right you don't really need offense beyond cantrips. Though Magic Missile/Thunderwave is occasionally quite decent.

[Dork_Forge]

IME if you do your control job right you don't really need offense beyond cantrips. Though Magic Missile/Thunderwave is occasionally quite decent.

Then you should have said that you can add control from there, but you specified offense and the list of spells you provided doesn't quite work with level progression.

[Unoriginal]

IME if you do your control job right you don't really need offense beyond cantrips. Though Magic Missile/Thunderwave is occasionally quite decent.

With which spells are you doing "your control job right"? 'Cause aside from Counterspell any control spells you mentioned were an afterthought.

[Eldariel]

With which spells are you doing "your control job right"? 'Cause aside from Counterspell any control spells you mentioned were an afterthought.

Web/Levitate/Hypnotic Pattern/Dragon's Breath is a pretty darn solid control/offense toolkit. Add maybe Minor Illusion and Toll the Dead and Mold Earth and you're golden. The only thing really missing is an Earthen Grasp-like effect and a Fog Cloud (redundancy with Minor Illusion though) to fight enemy spellcasters but as you already have Counterspell, you are pretty well off there as well.

[Reynaert]

Giant hands are the size of barrels and can crush your lungs to make you unable to speak. It may not be how you play it, but it's not like all of the damage of being crushed for a round happens in an instant, and has no effect on the initiative count preceding and following.

I'm assuming that the Giant uses his turn to move up to the wizard, grabs him and starts crushing him. After that, the wizard gets his turn and Misty Steps out of there. If you rule that the wizard can't cast at that time because he's being crushed, you are using the turn-based abstraction to give the giant the chance to grab the wizard, but then you use some kind of "realism" argument and swipe aside that same abstraction to argue that the wizard can't escape.

[Unoriginal]

I'm assuming that the Giant uses his turn to move up to the wizard, grabs him and starts crushing him. After that, the wizard gets his turn and Misty Steps out of there. If you rule that the wizard can't cast at that time because he's being crushed, you are using the turn-based abstraction to give the giant the chance to grab the wizard, but then you use some kind of "realism" argument and swipe aside that same abstraction to argue that the wizard can't escape.

Or they gave the Giant an ability that let them grab and subdue. Or made a ruling that Medium-sized creatures grappled by a Huge one can't talk/breath.

[Eldariel]

Or they gave the Giant an ability that let them grab and subdue. Or made a ruling that Medium-sized creatures grappled by a Huge one can't talk/breath.

Then someone Polymorphs the Wizard into a Giant Ape that proceeds to strangle the Giant and use it as a giant club.

[Reynaert]

Or they gave the Giant an ability that let them grab and subdue. Or made a ruling that Medium-sized creatures grappled by a Huge one can't talk/breath.

I.E. they introduced a houserule to nerf wizards.

[Kyutaru]

I.E. they introduced a houserule to nerf wizards.
That's like saying that by having a cliff in a game you're introducing a house rule to nerf fighters. Furthermore, you don't know the stats of this giant. It may well have "Nerfs Wizards" as part of its normal Rib-crushing ability text. Whether by poison that renders one mute, gags being used in grappling, areas of dead magic zones, or the silence spell, preventing casting was always within the DM's ability.

It's actually insulting to the game, the table, and the players to call every DM decision a houserule.

[cutlery]

It's actually insulting to the game, the table, and the players to call every DM decision a houserule.

Not in this case, where the entire discussion has boiled down to ways to make a wizard not cast while being grappled - particularly, the one spell that serves as an escape from that situation.

There are ways to manage parties with wizards, this isn't a good one.

[Kyutaru]

Not in this case, where the entire discussion has boiled down to ways to make a wizard not cast while being grappled - particularly, the one spell that serves as an escape from that situation.

There are ways to manage parties with wizards, this isn't a good one.
I disagree. The entire discussion has boiled down to ways the wizard will cheat out of the original example, bypassing the very point made by it and disregarding the value it places on having a Strength-based hero. It's a tangent so far removed from the central point that it serves only solidify the fallacy that wizards have an answer to everything available at all times.

[Unoriginal]

Not in this case, where the entire discussion has boiled down to ways to make a wizard not cast while being grappled - particularly, the one spell that serves as an escape from that situation.

There are ways to manage parties with wizards, this isn't a good one.

This conversation was about why a wizard wouldn't cast Misty Step to escape a giant's grapple, not about ways of managing a party with wizards.

"I give the giant an ability that prevents it"/"I made a ruling that Huge creature grappling prevents breathing/speaking" is a perfectly reasonable answer for a DM to make, even if "Wizard doesn't have Misty Step or can't cast it currently" is more likely.

Not sure why the conversation has revolved around the wizard getting grappled specifically, though. There are other people for which getting grappled is bad news.

Also just getting hit by the Giant's normal attack would wreck a wizard badly, more often than not. It's not like they're invulnerable unless the DM "nerf" the class.

[Eldariel]

It's a tangent so far removed from the central point that it serves only solidify the fallacy fact that wizards have an answer to everything available at all times.

FTFY. The opportunity cost of being prepared for anything is so low that there's literally no reason not to be. You need like what, 5 spells out of the ~10-20 you can prepare.

[Unoriginal]

FTFY. The opportunity cost of being prepared for anything is so low that there's literally no reason not to be. You need like what, 5 spells out of the ~10-20 you can prepare.

And which spells are those, if you don't mind me asking?

[Eldariel]

And which spells are those, if you don't mind me asking?

Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Misty Step, Counterspell.

You have your physical defense, elemental defense, swift action teleportation and anti-caster effect. Again, of course, you can add Invisibility and some form of flight on the pile since they work in a variety of circumstances but those 5 will have you covered real far up until you get Contingency for Contingent Teleports or whatever and Magic Jar for body upgrades and such. I'd say those are key, rest are nice. Of course, there are cases where good offense is the best defense and the best way to avoid getting into trouble is to just disable the enemy before they get to mess with you, in which case hard CC like Hypnotic Pattern, Levitate, Earthen Grasp or Web is of course great. Or vision breakers like Fog Cloud/Pyrotechnics/Sleet Storm. In short, the same spells I mentioned in my last post.

[Reynaert]

This conversation was about why a wizard wouldn't cast Misty Step to escape a giant's grapple, not about ways of managing a party with wizards.

"I give the giant an ability that prevents it"/"I made a ruling that Huge creature grappling prevents breathing/speaking" is a perfectly reasonable answer for a DM to make, ...

That is your opinion. I couldn't disagree more.

*especially* in a thread where people are arguing that you "need a Strong person or else", any DM "ruling" that is presented as "perfectly reasonable" to "debunk" a counter example is very suspect.

[Unoriginal]

Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Misty Step, Counterspell.

You have your physical defense, elemental defense, swift action teleportation and anti-caster effect. Again, of course, you can add Invisibility and some form of flight on the pile since they work in a variety of circumstances but those 5 will have you covered real far up until you get Contingency for Contingent Teleports or whatever and Magic Jar for body upgrades and such. I'd say those are key, rest are nice. Of course, there are cases where good offense is the best defense and the best way to avoid getting into trouble is to just disable the enemy before they get to mess with you, in which case hard CC like Hypnotic Pattern, Levitate, Earthen Grasp or Web is of course great. Or vision breakers like Fog Cloud/Pyrotechnics/Sleet Storm. In short, the same spells I mentioned in my last post.

So the spell selection that you deems "prepared for anything" does not prepare the caster against, among many other things, a typical Young Green Dragon, a typical Mind Flayer, or any group that has both a caster capable of offense and a combatant with a decent attack bonus.

Sorry to say, but "I can make myself somewhat hard to hit", "I can make myself way harder to hit, sometime", "I can diminish elemental damage, sometime", "I can block someone else's casting, sometime" and "I can get 30ft away from danger, sometime" doesn't constitue "prepared for anything".

Even if we include the "I can make myself harder to target", "I can hinder enemy movement" and "I'm not even here" spells you suggested as add-ons for the key ones, it still doesn't make the "prepared for anything" claim a fact.



That is your opinion. I couldn't disagree more.

*especially* in a thread where people are arguing that you "need a Strong person or else", any DM "ruling" that is presented as "perfectly reasonable" to "debunk" a counter example is very suspect.

Fair. As you said, it is our respective opinions.

Do note that I am arguing that you do *not* need a Strong person.

Personally, maybe it is also just an opinion, but I don't see why a Giant would bother with a grapple at all in this situation. Most Giants are well-rounded and fearsome adversaries both in melee and at range, even with the weak spots adventurers can take advantage of.

[Eldariel]

So the spell selection that you deems "prepared for anything" does not prepare the caster against, among many other things, a typical Young Green Dragon, a typical Mind Flayer, or any group that has both a caster capable of offense and a combatant with a decent attack bonus.

Sorry to say, but "I can make myself somewhat hard to hit", "I can make myself way harder to hit, sometime", "I can diminish elemental damage, sometime", "I can block someone else's casting, sometime" and "I can get 30ft away from danger, sometime" doesn't constitue "prepared for anything".

Even if we include the "I can make myself harder to target", "I can hinder enemy movement" and "I'm not even here" spells you suggested as add-ons for the key ones, it still doesn't make the "prepared for anything" claim a fact.

You'd be just fine against a typical Mind Flayer. It just so happens their saves suck so you just need to mindrape it (attacking its Con-save is the most efficient). It also attacks your Int so you're basically immune to its attacks. I wouldn't consider a Mind Flayer much of a challenge as a Wizard.

Same with Dragon; you have enough AC and Absorb Elements to shrug off its **** and its Dex saves suck which you have multiple ways to attack. Fighter just attacks every enemy. If that's considered sufficient contribution, you can surpass that against anything.

[LibraryOgre]

I'm assuming that the Giant uses his turn to move up to the wizard, grabs him and starts crushing him. After that, the wizard gets his turn and Misty Steps out of there. If you rule that the wizard can't cast at that time because he's being crushed, you are using the turn-based abstraction to give the giant the chance to grab the wizard, but then you use some kind of "realism" argument and swipe aside that same abstraction to argue that the wizard can't escape.

No, I interpreted the rule on page 202 of the Player's Handbook to adapt to a specific situation. Specifically, the sentence which says


If your concentration is broken, the spell fails, but you donÂ’t expend a spell slot.

This is combined with the rule for Concentration (p. 203) where


Taking damage. Whenever you take damage while you are concentrating on a spell, you must make a Constitution saving throw to maintain your concentration.

and, from page 204


The DM might also decide that certain environmental phenomena, such as a wave crashing over you while youÂ’re on a storm-tossed ship, require you to succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on a spell.

Similarly, there is the rule about readied spells on page 193:


To be readied, a spell must have a casting time of 1 action, and holding onto the spellÂ’s magic requires concentration (explained in chapter 10). If your concentration is broken, the spell dissipates without taking effect.

Again, the ability to use a spell is specifically limited by one's ability to concentrate on that spell; those examples all talk about, specifically, about concentration, but it can broadly apply to spellcasting in general (especially, as the example on page 193 notes, if you are trying to cast Magic Missile, a single action spell, but take damage before you can). Ergo, taking ongoing damage, or being under the physical control of another person, can limit your ability to cast a spell.

Consider, for a moment, any scene in a movie where someone is desperately trying to shout useful information while being, in D&D terms, grappled. What sort of action is it to put your hand over the mouth of someone whom you have grappled? Given that spellcasters of all sorts usually require their mouths to cast spells, this would, indeed, be a pretty common tactic among grapplers, especially because the tricky little devils like to Misty Step out of your grasp. What are the chances that the giant has grabbed you by the shoulders and head... so he's not crushing your ribcage, but he's clogging your mouth with greasy, fleshy, hands?

This is not a blanket "A caster who is grappled cannot cast a spell." This is "If a caster is grappled, there is a chance they will not be able to cast a spell." The chance relies on an existing mechanic, and is based on "It is hard to do something 'physically and mentally taxing' [p. 201] when someone is treating you like Lenny treats rabbits."

[Unoriginal]

You'd be just fine against a typical Mind Flayer. It just so happens their saves suck so you just need to mindrape it (attacking its Con-save is the most efficient).

Aside from the fact the Illithid's mental saves do not suck, a Mind Flayer still has Magic Resistance against all spells even if you target the physical saves. Which spell (that is not included in the 'prepared for anything' list) are you suggesting to use to mindrape them with a Con save?



Same with Dragon; you have enough AC and Absorb Elements to shrug off its ****

Absorb Elements does nothing against a Green Dragon.



and its Dex saves suck which you have multiple ways to attack.

So a +4 save is in the "suck" category? Alright, let's take this data into account.



It also attacks your Int so you're basically immune to its attacks

Dominate Monster targets WIS. As most optimizers favor CON and/or DEX for their Wizard, I doubt your typical "optimized", "prepared for anything" Wizard's WIS save go above +5 for most of their career. And I'm told having such a modifier for a save places you in the "suck at it" category.



Fighter just attacks every enemy. If that's considered sufficient contribution, you can surpass that against anything.

You know, openly claiming superiority in everything just makes the fallacy of the statement even more obvious.

[Eldariel]

Aside from the fact the Illithid's mental saves do not suck, a Mind Flayer still has Magic Resistance against all spells even if you target the physical saves. Which spell (that is not included in the 'prepared for anything' list) are you suggesting to use to mindrape them with a Con save?

Probably one of the floating slots. Blindness is a decent one for instance. Though it might be more efficient to just break vision.


Absorb Elements does nothing against a Green Dragon.

Fair, they still breathe Acid in my games so I had this wrong. So yeah, it might hurt but you'll probably survive one breath (especially if you've had time to take Con save proficiency) and chances are it won't get to breathe twice.


So a +4 save is in the "suck" category? Alright, let's take this data into account.

It's a fair save but a level 5 character can have save DC of 15 so it's a 50/50 to fail against anything.

Dominate Monster targets WIS. As most optimizers favor CON and/or DEX for their Wizard, I doubt your typical "optimized", "prepared for anything" Wizard's WIS save go above +5 for most of their career. And I'm told having such a modifier for a save places you in the "suck at it" category.[/quote]

Probably not. But Dominate Monster is a Concentration spell that it has +1 Concentration for so it's pretty trivial for the party to break. The thing that makes Mind Flayer scary is Mind Blast and that's Int SoD.


You know, openly claiming superiority in everything just makes the fallacy of the statement even more obvious.

Or perhaps we should just say that for a fair comparison, Fighter can't contribute against any encounter if "just attack" isn't considered a sufficient contribution (something every Wizard, Bard and Rogue can do)?

[Unoriginal]

Then someone Polymorphs the Wizard into a Giant Ape that proceeds to strangle the Giant and use it as a giant club.

That would be awesome, if the team manages to pull it off.



Or perhaps we should just say that for a fair comparison, Fighter can't contribute against any encounter if "just attack" isn't considered a sufficient contribution (something every Wizard, Bard and Rogue can do)?

1) Fighters can contribute to encounters in other ways, just like any character can.

2) Yes, "just attack" is a sufficient contribution for most combat encounters.


On this, I think the thread has moved far away from its initial purpose, and won't be participating on it unless if OP asks for more contributions on their initial inquiry.

[Azuresun]

Now, yes, i could see a perfect world where the last player picks a paladin or a cleric and fixes everything without issue, but given the races she was asking about, i am predicting a ranger or rogue.

I suggest mentioning it to them, without putting any pressure on. "You know, we don't have any front-line fighters or healers, and that's a niche you could fill--but play what you want, and I'll work around it." Some players (like me) are indecisive when choosing a character, and / or like being able to fill gaps in the party line-up.

[opaopajr]

I see Schrödinger's Wizard has entered another conversation. :smalltongue:

[Edea]

I suggest mentioning it to them, without putting any pressure on. "You know, we don't have any front-line fighters or healers, and that's a niche you could fill--but play what you want, and I'll work around it." Some players (like me) are indecisive when choosing a character, and / or like being able to fill gaps in the party line-up.

This, as well.

I'm absolutely the type to 'niche-fill,' oftentimes I won't even settle on a basic race/class combo until I know what everyone else is doing, explicitly to fill any gaps (and if there aren't any to fill, then I get to make a cloud-cuckoolander build).

[Toadkiller]

I like the idea of mentioning it in a low key, no pressure way and then rolling with what they do the best you can. I think that once you actually start playing 5e has built a lot of inherent flexibility into the characters. Heck I front line tanked a purple worm with my Cleric 1/Wizard x (I don’t remember) with a sword. I wasn’t happy about it but the situation called for somebody to go stab it while the rest of the party got out of the trap they had fallen into. I was effective enough, it was exciting and we were all having fun.

If you give them a little time, as mentioned above, they will figure it out.

[Azuresun]

I see Schrödinger's Wizard has entered another conversation. :smalltongue:

Any thread that goes on long enough here becomes a caster / martials thread, a "just take hexblade" thread or a wizard hate thread. It is inevitable.