Help with Fiend / Demon Slaying Build ....

[Nefariis]

I've been DM'ing this campaign for about a year now and the characters just hit level 9 from level 1.

Now, one of my players is going to take over for me for the next 5-6 levels so I get a chance to play in the campaign (I'm pretty excited).

He said that the story arc is going to involve quite a few demons and fiends, and so I am curious -

- If you guys know any demon/fiend slaying builds?
- Which classes / subclasses I should be looking into?
- Any items that might be demon /fiend specific?

Thank guys

[5eNeedsDarksun]

My first thought is Paladin. Fits thematically as well as mechanically. You get bonus damage on all your smites (which are radiant and not resisted) and some subclasses can turn fiends. I believe Devotion and Ancients; not sure which others. DMed Out of the Abyss and the Ancients paladin had a great time.

[LudicSavant]

I've been DM'ing this campaign for about a year now and the characters just hit level 9 from level 1.

Now, one of my players is going to take over for me for the next 5-6 levels so I get a chance to play in the campaign (I'm pretty excited).

He said that the story arc is going to involve quite a few demons and fiends, and so I am curious -

- If you guys know any demon/fiend slaying builds?
- Which classes / subclasses I should be looking into?
- Any items that might be demon /fiend specific?

Thank guys

Wizard (Evoker, esp. a Nuclear Wizard style one), Paladin (Devotion), and Eldritch Blast-focused builds that don't use Darkness are all really good against fiends.

Basically, all the things that can do a lot of damage that they can't resist, save against, see through, teleport out of, etc. And that has good defenses that can stack with stuff like the very excellent Protection From Evil and Good (which is way better than Blur, but in a level 1 slot. As long as you're fighting the correct creature types).

What you want to avoid are things that actually care about Magic Resistance or elemental damage Resistance. Fiends have tons of that. Note that a lot of mages actually don't care about enemies having Magic Resistance, it's just a matter of picking the right spells.

[Edea]

Also, the devil's sight invocation might be desired to counteract their own darkness-using shenanigans, so that's another point for the warlock (or at least dipping it).

[Nefariis]

Which do you think would get more mileage between "resistance damage on magic" or "cannot be charmed"?

Do fiends, demons, and devils have many charm effects or damage spells?


what about something like -

fighter 1 / hex 1 / Paladin 6 or 8 / (Lore Bard X or Sorc X)

This would give Str/Con saves, two fighting styles, 21 AC, aura saves, Cha to hit/damage/spells

I'm starting at level 9 which means I could have 20 Cha by level 10

Is there any subclass that gives something like Greater Favored Enemy that would give attack / damage bonuses to one group?

Rangers are terrible, but I can't think of anything else.

[Iku Rex]

Which sources (Xanathar's, Eberron, Ravnica, Wildemount etc) can you use? UA?
Will the character start with any magic items?
How do you determine ability scores?

[LudicSavant]

Is there any subclass that gives something like Greater Favored Enemy that would give attack / damage bonuses to one group?

Rangers are terrible, but I can't think of anything else.

Paladin smites get damage bonuses specifically against Fiends.

Devotion gets some extra stuff that's especially good against Fiends (at-will non-Concentration PFG&E later on, for instance, basically means Fiends are just screwed).

[nickl_2000]

There are a lot of good choices on here, but let me throw another. Arcana Domain Cleric.

Radiant Damage:
Sacred Flame, Guiding Bolt, Bless to help with saving throws, Spirit Guardians

Other good Spells:
Protection from Evil and Good, Banishment, Magic Circle, Planar Binding

Also, don't forget that the channel divinity can turn Fiends on an arcana cleric.





Since you aren't starting at level 1 you can pick something like an Infernal Tiefling or Fire Genasi for Fire Resistance as well.

[Nefariis]

All published material is up for grabs and he will review UA material. I will probably receive a few magic items that will be similar to what I gave out to them (mithril armor, magic weapon, and another magic item) and it's a 28 point buy.

Devotion's Protection from Good and Evil is great, but it's a level 15 feature, I'm not sure if I want to go all the way to 15 for it. Having some levels in Sorc and twinning it when the need arises might be more prudent.

[Warlush]

You might want to look at Blood Hunter as well. That is if you're hunting or tracking fiends.

[Nefariis]

I have never seen the blood hunter before, that's a very cool class - I just wish the Profane Soul was a little better.

how does this look -

fighter 1 / hex 1 / Paladin 6 or 8 / (Lore Bard X or Sorc X)

Should I take the fighter dip?

With it I would have a +11 to con saves, an extra fighter style (Dueling), and Second Wind - plus I could always pick up a second level for action surge somewhere down the road.

And then would you guys go Bard, Sorc, or continue on in Paladin?

[Iku Rex]

I don't see much point in one fighter level unless you're planning on getting one or two more later for nova damage and maybe a fighter subclass.

Thoughts/suggestions:

Classes:
Devotion Paladin. 5 (Extra Attack),6 (Aura of Protection),7 (Aura of Devotion) or 8 (ASI) levels. I like Defense or Dueling style.

Sorcerer. 3 (metamagic) or 4 (ASI). Maybe more on higher levels for spells. Better spells and better smites. Quicken and Twin metamagic means more potential damage, and can be used with booming blade. For subclass, Divine Soul (XGtE) fits the concept, and Favored by the Gods is a decent ability. Giant Soul (UA) could get you shillelagh as a sorcerer spell, letting you use Cha for melee attack and damage without a Hexblade multiclass. Shadow Magic lets you do the "see in [your own] darkness" trick.

Hexblade Warlock. 1 (curse, Hex Warrior), 2 (invocations) or 3 (pact boon, level 2 slots). Lots of good stuff and works well with sorcerer. For invocations, Agonizing Blast improves your ranged abilities (and can be quickened), Devil's Sight allows darkness shenanigans, Gift of the Ever-Living Ones (lv3) makes you easy to heal and Repelling Blast lets you move enemies.

Good starts at level 9 could be Paladin 8/Warlock 1, Paladin 5/Sorcerer 4, Paladin 6/Sorcerer 3 or Paladin 5/Sorcerer 3/Warlock 1. (I think I prefer the last one.)

Feats/ASI: The Cha 20 is hard to give up. That means little room for feats. Some suggestions: War Caster, mainly to avoid worrying about somatic components. Shield Master. Mounted Combatant. Elven Accuracy (XGtE) + Hexblade Curse + reliable source of advantage + smites = nice crits. Polearm Master is always nice and should work with War Caster, at least for spells like booming blade.

Race: Variant Human for feat. Changeling can get +3 Cha, allowing Cha 20 with only one ASI. Half-elf can get Cha 20 with Elven Accuracy + 1 ASI. Scourge Aasimar would be decent and flavorful. Satyr for Magic Resistance.

Items: Gauntlets of Ogre Power (uncommon) lets you have a Str based melee character without investing the points. Winged Boots (uncommon) keeps you (more) relevant against flying enemies. Cloak of Protection further emphasizes the "hard to damage" paladin schtick.

[Vogie]

If you want a true Demon Slayer build at level 9, use the hell out of the UAs. I'd suggest Watcher Paladin 6 / Fey Wanderer Ranger 3

You'll get your dual Fighting Styles, heavy armor, extra attack, reliable extra damage (bonus action 1d6 psychic damage), Smite Damage, ability to Turn Fiends with a channel divinity, advantage against frightening & charm, and the abilities of a 4th level caster

Ironically, you'd want the RAW ranger's Favored Enemy for +2 damage to fiends, rather than the revised ranger (which doesn't include fiends as an option) or the class variant favored foe, which would require you to have more of a wisdom investment (which you won't need because of your Aura of Protection).

Beyond that, I'd take levels in a Charisma caster for moar smiting. Going 'lock for Devil's Sight and short rest slots is a huge boon but the all-encompassing advantage from WMS or the flexibility of Lore Bard are also interesting.

[Nefariis]

My game finally finished up and we just had session 0 introducing us to the new Eberron campaign.

I found out in session 0 that someone else is doing a Sorcadin and the DM nixed a single level dip into Hexblade (understandable) - so now I'm leaning towards a Palard

I wanted to post an update on this to see if I could get some feedback based on new information including other party members and available magic items.

Here is the party, starting at level 9:


Yuan-Ti Shadow Sorc 6 / Watchers Paladin X
Wood Elf Druid of the Stars X
Wizard 4 / Artificer X


We are allowed 5 uncommon items - 3 attuned items and 2 non-attuned items.

Items (Depending on build)-


Gauntlets of Ogre Power
Mithril Plate
Cloak of Protection
Luckstone
Wand of Magic Missiles

Maybe Items -


+1 weapon
Fochlucan Bandore
Sentinel Shield


The campaign will probably go to 14, so....

Option 1:
Human Pal 2 / Lore Bard 12
Feat - Magic Initiate (GFB/BB)

Option 2:
Half Elf Pal 2 / Lore Bard 12
Half Elf gets GFB or BB for free
Item Swap - Ogre Power for Fochlucan bandore (Shillelagh)
Feat - Elven Accuracy

Option 3:
Human Glory Pal 6 / Lore Bard 8
Feat - Shield Master
Glory Paladin has Peerless Athlete which make it the ultimate shield master

Option 4:
Human Ancients Pal 8 / Lore Bard 6
Feat - Shield Master
Magical Resistance for all


My character is going to have to do some front lining due to the party make up, so it seems plate / shield would be required.

Also I am worried about stepping on the other Paladins toes (he is another DM for a different group and never gets to play) - but he wont have Auras till level 12.

All these builds seem very playable - 21 AC, great skills, decent caster, smite, etc.

What do you guys think? how is the item selection? where do you think I should cut off Paladin and switch to bard? Is there anything I'm not considering?

Thank you all

[RogueJK]

A Devotion Paladin or Sorcadin is one obvious choice.


Wizard (Evoker, esp. a Nuclear Wizard style one)

I don't see a damage-based Wizard working very well.

Most Evocation spells, including basically all AoE spells, will be poor choices, since they rely on saves. Fiends have Magic Resistance, so that's almost guaranteeing half damage on all of those. You'd be inclined to stick to direct attack roll spells, but even a number of those will be disqualified due to Fiends' various elemental resistances/immunities.

So you end up with a very limited damage spell choice, and not really able to make use of many of the Evoker's benefits like Sculpt Spell. For direct damage options against Fiends you're basically looking at Chill Touch (Cantrip), Chromatic Orb (1), Magic Missile (1), Melf's Acid Arrow (2), and Crown of Stars (7). That's it. Taking Elemental Adept - Fire potentially opens up a couple more, like Fire Bolt and Scorching Ray, provided that Fiend isn't outright immune to Fire (as some of the biggest ones are).

Beyond that, a Wizard's control/debuff spell options are limited as well, since most of them are "save or suck" spells, many of which even have further repeating saves, so even if the Fiend fails the initial save they are guaranteed to make it in the next round or so.

But some type of Summoner Wizard could still be handy against Fiends.

[Eldariel]

I don't see that working very well.

Most Evocation spells, including basically all AoE spells, will be poor choices, since they rely on saves. Fiends have Magic Resistance. You'll have to stick to direct attack roll spells, of which even a number of those will be disqualified due to Fiends' various elemental resistances.

So you end up with a very limited spell choice, and not really able to make use of many of the Evoker's benefits like Sculpt Spell.

The big one, Magic Missile, works tremendously though with the Evoker level 10 ability. Sculpt Spell isn't that amazing, granted, though you can always take Elemental Adept: Fire against demons specifically since they generally have resistance, not immunity. I personally prefer Diviner: allows ignoring magic resistance with Portent to make them fall prey to save-or-die. Combine that with a spell list heavy on spells that don't have saves or where the saves are inconsequential and you're set.

I did a quick list up to level 5 here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24599464&postcount=9) (higher levels of course have tremendously useful spells to this end such as Crown of Stars, Shapechange, True Polymorph, Wish, etc. and all the usual Simulacrum/Clone/Contingency/Magic Jar/etc. stuff) and there's some discussion on easy ways to use minionmancy against weapon resistant/immune enemies here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612932-Wizard-Minions-vs-Damage-Resistance&p=24527235) (though it does miss some options like Magic Initiate: Artificer/dip to make Magic Stones for your skeletons).

[RogueJK]

If you're going to try to do a damage-based caster, a Divine Soul Sorcerer at least has access to a few additional spells that overcome both the Magic Resistance and Elemental Resistance/Immunity challenges I described above, like Spiritual Weapon and Guiding Bolt.

Plus if the DM allows the Elemental Spell UA metamagic, that opens up the possibility of some further benefits for a Sorcerer, with stuff like spending a Spell Point to cast a Thunder-based Scorching Ray. And a Sorcerer could Twin some of these direct attack spells.

And if you want some AoE capability, combine a Divine Soul Sorcerer with UA Elemental Spell metamagic with a 2 level dip into Tempest Cleric. You'd have the ability to toss out the occasional AoE spell that's been substituted for Thunder damage and then maximized. Even though the Fiends are still taking half damage, it's at least half of max damage, roughly statistically equivalent to what you'd be rolling on average for full damage.

Such a Divine Storm Demon Hunter might look something like this at 9th level:

Tempest Cleric 2/Divine Soul Sorcerer 7
Spell Slots 4/3/3/3/1
Metamagic: Elemental Spell (UA) and Twin Spell
Cleric Cantrips: Guidance and 2x utility spells
Sorcerer Cantrips: Chill Touch and 4x utility spells
Cleric 1st level spells prepared: Fog Cloud*, Thunderwave*, Healing Word, Bless, Guiding Bolt
Sorcerer 1st: Absorb Elements, Chromatic Orb, Protection from Evil and Good*
Sorcerer 2nd: Misty Step, Spiritual Weapon
Sorcerer 3rd: Fireball, Haste, Counterspell
Sorcerer 4th: Dimension Door (but your 4th and 5th level slots will mostly be used for upcasting)

Concentrate on Bless in most combats, switching to the occasional Twinned Haste or Twinned Protection from Evil and Good when the situation calls for it. Use Spiritual Weapon frequently for your Bonus Action, sometimes upcasting it into a 4th level slot for more damage. Use Chill Touch and Spiritual Weapon as your typical combo to conserve spell slots, but occasionally toss out an upcast and maximized Thunder-Fireball, or upcast and maximized Twinned Thunder Chromatic Orbs, or upcast Twinned Guiding Bolts, using your 4th and 5th level slots.

[Nefariis]

Im avoiding the sorcerer altogether as someone is already playing it.

My most recent post is #14 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24766346&postcount=14) - that has an update as to what other people are playing as well as what I am currently looking at

Thanks

[RogueJK]

Right. Sorry. Just got sidetracked theorycrafting a damage-focused caster for use against Fiends. :biggrin: