Thieves guild Admittance Procedure

[HoboKnight]

Hey, guys,

I have a group of PCs, who will start as Thieves Guild Applicants. In many PC games, you just come to some buildings' back door, enter and voila! You are now a Thieves Guild member. I want to go more Asoiaf-style. Thieves' guild accepts only young members. 18 years or less. In fact, 18 is already rather old. And unlike "you are a wizard, Harry", approach (with full student debt thing covered), I want to make this guild an intelligent (and rather nasty) organization. There are tests. And tests within tests. Some pass them, some fail ... and mostly die. And with all my smart talking ... I'm turning again to playground to make me look smart in front of my players. :D

What sort of tests would a thieves' guild (5e, Faerun), present to new eager rogues with very poor stats? How would Guild secure their loyalty? I'm thinking there should be some sort of debt immediately - something like - you are indebted to the Guild, untill you pay 5.000 goldpieces. Or - there is a price on your head, unless you serve the Guild for a dozen years. Or ... something similar.

Nasty Thieves Guild - how to? :D

thanks, guys

[Darth Credence]

First, what do you mean by "very poor stats", and how is this relevant? Do your players have very poor stats, or is the idea that the very poor stats should keep NPCs out?

I'd probably start with a deadly trap at the entrance they come in - miss that there's a trap, or fail at dealing with it, and the first round of weeding out the unworthy is done. Then I might go with some sort of dexterity based challenge to go farther - something like a series of posts over a deadly pit, and they have to make it from post to post without falling. That would be tricky as a weed out, because the difference between incredibly good and incredibly bad is a swing of like 8 points on the check, right? I'd probably lean to making it a DC10 check. Maybe have some fairly difficult guards at the end, ready to end anyone they see, so stealth comes into play.
You could combine these with the money issue - make the checks pretty hard, but not immediately deadly. If they have 10 different tests to clear, and it will cost, say, 500 gp to be rescued from one before they die, then most would be very indebted at the end, while the best of the best, the people that pass everything, aren't and pretty much become members in good standing quickly.

[Unoriginal]

Hey, guys,

I have a group of PCs, who will start as Thieves Guild Applicants. In many PC games, you just come to some buildings' back door, enter and voila! You are now a Thieves Guild member. I want to go more Asoiaf-style. Thieves' guild accepts only young members. 18 years or less. In fact, 18 is already rather old. And unlike "you are a wizard, Harry", approach (with full student debt thing covered), I want to make this guild an intelligent (and rather nasty) organization. There are tests. And tests within tests. Some pass them, some fail ... and mostly die. And with all my smart talking ... I'm turning again to playground to make me look smart in front of my players. :D

What sort of tests would a thieves' guild (5e, Faerun), present to new eager rogues with very poor stats? How would Guild secure their loyalty? I'm thinking there should be some sort of debt immediately - something like - you are indebted to the Guild, untill you pay 5.000 goldpieces. Or - there is a price on your head, unless you serve the Guild for a dozen years. Or ... something similar.

Nasty Thieves Guild - how to? :D

thanks, guys


First, no offense meant to you, but I have to say that a Thieves' Guild who only recruit below 18 and forces its applicants to go through tests within tests and the like does not look smart, at least to me. They look like a cult which values their precepts more than practicality.

Second, do you want the tests to be able the capabilities of the applicants, or about their loyalty? Because those are two very different things.

Third, an important thing you need to decide, as it will shape the nature of the "tests", is: why would people want to apply for membership in this Guild?


In any case, criminals who aren't high on their own ego should know that you can't really test loyalty, you can only at test how far someone is willing to go now in order to betray you later. While there are many ways a criminal organization make it so its members are motivated to not betray it, given the way you're presenting this particular Guild, here's my suggestion:

The Guild give the applicants a task to accomplish and the order to bring X indisputable evidence that they did it, but if they do accomplish it it will unwittingly make them accomplices of a much bigger crime (one that'd warrant a prompt execution if found out), and the Guild blackmail them with it to keep them under the Guild's thumb forever.

Ex: Applicants have to steal a priest's distinctive sacred symbol. When the applicants have done it, a Guild's higher-up moves in and kill the priest. Now the justice system people would never believe those who robbed the priests didn't also participate in the killing.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Hey, guys,

I have a group of PCs, who will start as Thieves Guild Applicants. In many PC games, you just come to some buildings' back door, enter and voila! You are now a Thieves Guild member. I want to go more Asoiaf-style. Thieves' guild accepts only young members. 18 years or less. In fact, 18 is already rather old. And unlike "you are a wizard, Harry", approach (with full student debt thing covered), I want to make this guild an intelligent (and rather nasty) organization. There are tests. And tests within tests. Some pass them, some fail ... and mostly die. And with all my smart talking ... I'm turning again to playground to make me look smart in front of my players. :D

What sort of tests would a thieves' guild (5e, Faerun), present to new eager rogues with very poor stats? How would Guild secure their loyalty? I'm thinking there should be some sort of debt immediately - something like - you are indebted to the Guild, untill you pay 5.000 goldpieces. Or - there is a price on your head, unless you serve the Guild for a dozen years. Or ... something similar.

Nasty Thieves Guild - how to? :D

thanks, guys
Is he in a town the guild has presence? is he operating as a Thief or a smuggler?
Then he’s a member of the guild and owes them a cut of his thieving profits or he will be driven out, handed over to the guards or killed. He also must abide by their rules.

Guilds were not elite clubs for the best of the best. They were organizations for setting standards. To quote Britannia
“Guilds performed a variety of important functions in the local economy. They established a monopoly of trade in their locality or within a particular branch of industry or commerce; they set and maintained standards for the quality of goods and the integrity of trading practices in that industry; they worked to maintain stable prices for their goods and commodities; and they sought to control town or city governments in order to further the interests of the guild members and achieve their economic objectives.”
In short a Guild was a labor union for otherwise independent professionals.
If the Thieves Guild doesn’t try to control all the professional thieving, smuggling and illegal good trade in the city they aren’t actually a guild. If you are a baker and don’t join the bakers guild the bakers guild will run out of business.

Letting independents operate in their city is bad for business.

So now the question is, is the guild more like a guild or more like a Mafia or other structured organized crime outfit. If it’s more like a Mafia which many thieves guilds are it means someone trusted in the guild must vouch for you. To advance you do jobs and impress your bosses.

If it’s more like a guild, then they simply catch operating in their area and conscript you go join. And advancement would be either getting thieves to vote you into positions of power or you pay the other people in power to get a seat at the table.

[jjordan]

Nasty Thieves Guild - how to? :D
Real world examples you could research would be the mafia. American, Italian, Russian. The Yakuza and the Triads are also good examples.

In general, criminal organizations are organized like pyramid schemes. Members pay money to their superiors who pass money up the line to their superiors and so on.

Membership starts at a low level and moves up, typically over the course of many years, with challenges that need to be met along the way. Association is the key. At every level new members must be vouched for by members at the higher level they wish to move to. The people that vouch for these new members can be held responsible for the behavior of the new member. Some of the tasks members have to accomplish help to ensure loyalty. The commission of a serious crime in front of witnesses, for example. Body marking.

Organizations have rules. Some organizations require that their members never work at an honest job, for example. A little research will turn up a lot. To make the organization nasty simply make a few rules that must be observed and make sure the organization enforces the rules brutally. Have the players tasked with enforcing the rules in one of their early adventures to make the point.

I would suggest that showing up at a location is, at best, going to get you an introduction. Maybe an ambitious member of the organization wants to build up his own crew so he can earn more money and move up to higher levels? That makes him/her willing to take a chance on some relative unknowns and even provide training? That provides the hook for a variety of introductory adventures which can move from structured (he gives instructions on how to proceed) to more independent ventures (take care of this for me).

[OldTrees1]

Also remember the most important rule about loyalty. Honey will attract more flies than vinegar, but you can use both. Primarily rely on ways that reward loyalty. This is a family or a brother/sisterhood. You can't rule with only carrots, but sticks invite betrayal, so use them sparingly.

1) As long as you are in good standing you will be protected and will protect others. The reason you are above the law is because together you can overpower the law.
2) As long as you are in good standing you will be fortunate and will provide fortune to others. Good luck is spread around so that members survive times of bad luck. But it is not spread evenly, good luck is still rewarded both financially and with respect/standing.
3) As long as you are in good standing you will be taught and get to teach others. It is expected that secret tricks of the trade will be shared with your peers. There is no ban necessarily on teaching outsiders, but having access to all these mentors is the reward for guild membership.

[Lunali]

My thieves' guild admittance procedure generally consists of paying the required guild dues. A temporary membership might be allowed to let an aspiring thief have a limited amount of time to collect the money.

[Man_Over_Game]

Second, do you want the tests to be able the capabilities of the applicants, or about their loyalty? Because those are two very different things.


Real world examples you could research would be the mafia. American, Italian, Russian. The Yakuza and the Triads are also good examples.

Or take real life gangs into account. You start off just being friends, hanging out with some guys who seem chill and share a similar vibe to you. Eventually, you get acclimated to the fact that your best bud is doing drug runs, to the point where them talking about how much they're getting paid piques your interest enough to do it yourself. Once you've shown that the gang is family, you're trusted enough to do some heavier jobs. It's something that happens slowly, to the point where distrust is rarely a factor.

In my mind, someone that's trusted to do illegal stuff is more important than a capable specialist. You don't need to be that smart to put something in a bag and look pretty. The only reason I'd expect a faction to be looking for experienced folks are:


For a specific job
To populate a new faction region
To populate a faction region that's lost members
As specialists to fix a very bad weakness in your organization (for example, bodyguards)
As sacrificial pawns for something big


Generally, I don't think a Thieves' Guild should be trusting you at all, and the only info you'd be trusted with is stuff that'd get you in trouble if you tried to leverage it. For example, not being what you're doing until you're in the middle of it, where your options are limited to "Do it" (and become an accomplice) or "Die".

[Corran]

If you want the thieves guild be a force to be reckoned with, that acts with intelligence, then the first thing you need to do IMO is to set a specific goal for this organization. Everything else will start flowing once you've got this down. That goal might be something very simple, like for example the accumulation of wealth. While the goal itself is simple in its nature, the practices dont need to be. They could range from theft, extortion and blackmail to actively engaging in political affairs (eg create war and offer mercenary and intelligence support to the highest bidder). Of course, since this is dnd, you could have the guild's goals go beyond just getting more money and power. For example, they are also the ones guarding the artifact of doom X, that if unleased then Y happens, and they have it because a long time ago Z had happened. And all that is well hidden lore that might tie to something you are planning for later on in the campaign.

Now, once you've got the goal that justifies the existence and function of the guild, you've got to think what's the thing that makes this guild more successful than the average criminal organization. I think it all eventually comes down to picking the right people for the right jobs. How does this relate with the pc's? Well, low level pc's should frankly be considered to be disposable assets. You use them if you happen to have a job suited to their talents. But you dont just call them for a cup of tea to the guild's headquarters and then hand them the quest. Because the guild does not operate as openly as say, a temple of Pelor. The guild will hand the quest in a much more indirect manner. Because low level pc's are not worth the time or the risk to associate or to be seen associating with them. And because there's no value or meaning in negotiating or in an actual two way communication between the pc's and the guild at this point, at least from the guild's perspective. Because again, low level pc's are frankly not that important to anyone, especially to a well established organization. So the guild plants a rumor that makes sure it reaches the pc's, or hires/uses someone to hand the quest (again, they use the right person, be it some priest they have on the payroll, or some minor noble they have dirt on, or some low level goon, depends on what you have in mind). Perhaps the pc's end up doing the job without even knowing that they are working for the guild. Perhaps the person hiring them does not know he is working for the guild. These are for you to decide according to what makes sense (meaning, dont add extra secrecy just for the sake of it). But the important thing is that low level pc's are not just the small children in a big family, they are just tools. Do you spend time having conversations with your tools?

Once the pc's prove that they can be useful and reliable, then the guild rewards them. How? By assigning to them a handler. This establishes an indirect two way communication with the guild itself, so make sure the players feel they earned it. So, the handler. Now it's time to create an NPC. Let's call him Tim. What's Tim's job? To get to know the pc's well, and to earn their trust. Why? So he can judge if the pc's can deliver when it comes to a job that needs to be done, so he can convince the pc's to deliver when he asks them to carry out the job, and so that he can help the pc's deliver if he thinks that's needed. For example, if the job is to attack the queen's escort when she is taking her dog out for a walk, kill the guards and the puppy to send a message and then leave, and Thog says ''Thog dont want kill puppy'', Tim's job is to try to convince Thog into doing that and then report to the guild if afterall he thinks that Thog is the right stupid frenzied barbarian for the job or not. Or the pc's might ask for some material help, say a scroll of water breathing or sth, then it's Tim's job to judge if that's needed and to communicate that request to the guild if necessary. And if he manages to procure one, he doesn't tell the pc's that the guild sends it. He says that he was the one who managed to scrape one for them cause the guild didn't think they needed it, and that's to establish trust and a good relationship that will be hopefully cashed in down the road. Eventually, and assuming the pc's keep proving themselves useful, Tim's job is to make them believe that whatever personal interests they may have, they will best served through the guild. In short, Tim's job is to keep the pc's contributing to the guild once they prove they can do so. Creating Tim wont be hard, once you get a good idea of your players' character motivations and personalities after a little friction with the game world itself (dont put that much emphasis on what your players wrote on their character sheets for that, cause these stuff may not even matter after 2 sessions). Just make a character that is everything that they like and has nothing of the things they dislike. They are meant to like their Tim, so it makes sense to encourage it (in other words, this is no meta at all).

Later on (maybe when they reach mid levels, say 10-11), start introducing to them more important members of the guild. Assuming the pc's have reached that far and have done well enough for the guild, it's only logical to draw the attention of guild members that will want to use them for their own specific purposes (and that's the point where you might want to introduce this kind of internal intrigue; the guild is not a happy family, it's a constant power struggle for advancement and that goes all the way up to the top). Who wouldn't want to be in good terms with skilled individuals that can help solve problems, even ones that may have not even occurred yet? Probably by now they know the locations of one or two guild bases, where they can even visit if there's need for it.

About your debt idea. It has some potential, but I wouldn't buy it the way you present it. Who wants to owe money just to belong to something you are not even supposed to talk about? Only fools (even more foolish than a harper). Fools could be the right people for when you need scapegoats or some kind of distraction, but with this angle I dont suppose you are setting up for a long campaign. Debt (so to speak) could be interesting if the pc's engage in criminal activities exclusively. So for example, the guild allows the pc's to operate criminally north of the river in exchange for a weekly fee (or some percentage of their earnings, if they feel confident that the pc's can be successful). Maybe that's something you could do for the right group in the early game? But I wouldn't know how to run a long campaign based on that (and I think that as a player I would be bored, which would eventually lead me to the unavoidable ''destroy/take over the guild'', justified by greed from an in character perspective, but in actuality it would probably be just because of not seeing any exciting alternative course of action as a player).

I'd scrap the age restriction idea. It restricts player choices for no good reason (background wise, thus maybe personality wise). Age restriction has mostly to do with fanaticism. Fanaticism has to do with getting someone do something most others wont do, so from an ooc perspective it's about restricting player agency. Or it has to do with doing something for a smaller reward (or maybe no reward), which poses no problem to you as a GM. Early age recruitment could also be justified if we are talking about acquiring a very specific skill set that takes a long time to master, but in a class based system that will be more of a problem than help (if for example you try to create a common background for all your players' characters).

[Sorinth]

I'll second @Man_Over_Game

But also you can't focus just on the Thieves' Guild and them being "Nasty", you also have to take into account why a normal person joins the guild. For example why would a normal teen recruit agree to take on 5000gp debt when they've probably never even held a GP in their hand before? It's more likely the guild floats you the money for stuff and then one day calls in to collect, since you can't pay then you have to do a favour instead.

But if you really want a loyalty test, the best is probably doing something that will allow the guild to blackmail you as needed. Perhaps they ask you to perform a high profile crime and then hand over a piece of incriminating evidence so that if you aren't loyal they can turn over that evidence as proof the PCs were behind the crime and thereby causing a huge problem for the PCs.

[HoboKnight]

Great answers and lots of good questions.

"Very poor stats" was meant Rogue lvl 1 (Elite array). Mostly, these guys are one roll away from utter failure.

Cult comparison is good. Of course you are targeting for loyalty and competence. Why under 18? I was going for pickpockets of old, who were mostly kids with nimble fingers (and feet). Also, hunger is a pretty good motivator and in a large Sword Coast city, you should have a fair share of homeless kids to recruit from.

People would want to apply, because Guild can pretty much get you out of any jail - for a price/debt. Also, you get a set of good skills. Initially, you get fed.

As Lord VUkodlak noted, name Guild may not be most appropriate here, still, I'm going with "Thieves Guild Trope". Yes, this is very much Mafia setup, not a medieval guild type.

[Unoriginal]

"Very poor stats" was meant Rogue lvl 1 (Elite array). Mostly, these guys are one roll away from utter failure.

A lvl 1 Rogue, elite array or not, is far from "one roll away from utter failure", though. They're greatness in the making, and much bigger threats to their enemies than the average grunt.




Cult comparison is good. Of course you are targeting for loyalty and competence.

I mean not all cults go for both.



Why under 18? I was going for pickpockets of old, who were mostly kids with nimble fingers (and feet). Also, hunger is a pretty good motivator and in a large Sword Coast city, you should have a fair share of homeless kids to recruit from.

People would want to apply, because Guild can pretty much get you out of any jail - for a price/debt. Also, you get a set of good skills. Initially, you get fed.

As Lord VUkodlak noted, name Guild may not be most appropriate here, still, I'm going with "Thieves Guild Trope". Yes, this is very much Mafia setup, not a medieval guild type.

So they're a bunch of folks indoctrinating desperate kids and then using them to racket the local businesses when they get older?

Could see it happens, with the provision that any rising crime syndicate will want to exterminate them ASAP. If it's happening in Baldur's Gate, the Cult of the Dead Three will want to go full ham on them yesterday. And the cults of Zariel and Tiamat too.

[Kyutaru]

Perhaps learning of the guild is the first test. A criminal organization doesn't necessarily wish to advertise its presence especially when it's large enough to operate on word of mouth. If an urchin is connected enough to learn of the guild's existence or noteworthy enough to catch the eye of its members then that in itself is an invitation to initiate. It becomes more of an exclusive club with vetted members only.

[Cheesegear]

Thieves' guild accepts only young members. 18 years or less. In fact, 18 is already rather old.

They can't just be young. They have to have no choice.
A 'young' Blacksmith's apprentice, farrier, innkeeper's boy, etc. has no need to join a Thieves' Guild. When the prospect of doing something illegal comes up - usually from one of their friends - it can't just be peer pressure that gets them to do it. Surrogate families and cults simply have no appeal when you already have parents who love you and good friends and stable future.

When the prospect of doing something illegal comes up, the victim prospect has to say 'yes'. Not just once. But every time after that, too.

First, you have to find someone who is in bad shape; Orphans are fantastic victims prospects. As I said, surrogate families don't really make connections when you already have an existing family.
Then you have to get them to engender loyalty to you. Giving them what they need. Clothes, food, shelter, and education. Commoners in D&D can read and write. That comes from somewhere.


I want to make this guild an intelligent (and rather nasty) organization.
[...]
What sort of tests would a thieves' guild (5e, Faerun), present to new eager rogues with very poor stats? How would Guild secure their loyalty? I'm thinking there should be some sort of debt immediately - something like - you are indebted to the Guild, untill you pay 5.000 goldpieces.

Set up the test as normal; 'Steal [X]'.
Rig the game from the start; 'A little birdie told the Guards/Victims that [X] is being planned and they should totally be ready.'

If the party succeeds, despite the game being rigged, they automatically pass.
If the party is caught...If they talk, they automatically fail.
Whilst imprisoned, more tests of loyalty (and competence) are forced upon them. If they die, they fail.

Since the Guards/Victims were bribed from the start, in three days, the victim prospect - who hasn't died or spilled the beans, yet - is released from jail because someone paid handsome bail.
"You owe us, now. Big."

Once again, the game is rigged from the start:
For...Reasons...The victim prospect is forced to murder defend themselves against their mark.
The Guild hides the body. More importantly, The Guild has evidence of what you did, and can turn you in at any time.

[Kyutaru]

Going against the grain here, think "secret society" and not cult.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Real world examples you could research would be the mafia. American, Italian, Russian. The Yakuza and the Triads are also good examples.

In general, criminal organizations are organized like pyramid schemes. Members pay money to their superiors who pass money up the line to their superiors and so on.

This.

Joining consists of forming your own earning scheme/gang, then getting 'discovered' by a Soldier (with potentially lethal consequences if the 'interview' goes badly). If accepted, you now are under the Soldier that discovered you.

Now it gets tricky/really dangerous. You rise in the organization based on your earnings for the organization. What if your earnings become greater than the Soldier who discovered you? If the Soldier can't take them from you and kill you, you have a chance to be named a Soldier by the Capo that Soldier is under. You are not 'made' in mafia terms, but your income is significant enough that the organization considers you not completely expendable. Beware of racial/political issues here. If your last name doesn't end in a vowel, they don't really want to recognize you as a Soldier.

So you are now a member of the thieves' guild, and the goals of the character are likely to be COMPLETELY incompatible with the goals of other party members. So unless its a crime game, you aren't playing D&D with others much anymore.

So I'd say that the amount of weekly earnings to become a member is based on how much the organization as a whole is making each week. I'd say if your character is giving them 5% of their total earnings, you get in. 10% might make you a Capo. Over that, you might get 'made' as a Capo. That's 'all the way in.'

[Kyutaru]

This.

Joining consists of forming your own earning scheme/gang, then getting 'discovered' by a Soldier (with potentially lethal consequences if the 'interview' goes badly). If accepted, you now are under the Soldier that discovered you.

Now it gets tricky/really dangerous. You rise in the organization based on your earnings for the organization. What if your earnings become greater than the Soldier who discovered you? If the Soldier can't take them from you and kill you, you have a chance to be named a Soldier by the Capo that Soldier is under. You are not 'made' in mafia terms, but your income is significant enough that the organization considers you not completely expendable. Beware of racial/political issues here. If your last name doesn't end in a vowel, they don't really want to recognize you as a Soldier.

So you are now a member of the thieves' guild, and the goals of the character are likely to be COMPLETELY incompatible with the goals of other party members. So unless its a crime game, you aren't playing D&D with others much anymore.

So I'd say that the amount of weekly earnings to become a member is based on how much the organization as a whole is making each week. I'd say if your character is giving them 5% of their total earnings, you get in. 10% might make you a Capo. Over that, you might get 'made' as a Capo. That's 'all the way in.'

Just to note, this is also how legal firms operate. Replace all sources of Capo with partner and replace anything involving crime with defending criminals from conviction. Insane amounts of income bringing you up the pyramid is how a lot of the financial world works. The clubs get more and more exclusive at the top to the point that you don't even know who you're really working for.