lv20: is it worth sacrificing Spell Mastery for Metamagic?

[follacchioso]

For a lv 20 character, would it be worth to give up Spell Mastery and Signature Spells, in exchange for three levels of Sorcerer and metamagic?

Advantages of lv 20 Wizard:
- Spell Mastery and Signature Spells are amazing abilities, from conjuring an infinite number of Unseen Servants to having Counterspell always prepared and recharged on a short rest
- Some abilities (Abjurer's ward) depend on wizard's level
- six more free spells (high level spells are difficult to research)

Advantages of three levels of Sorcerer:
- Subtle spells can be a game changer at high levels, avoiding any counterspell, or casting it while disguised. The other metamagic choice could be Heightened spells (for some nasty Int-based save), Distant spells, or Quickened. Many choices!
- Favoured Soul allows for some healing magic, and a short-rest bonus to saves and attack rolls. Tempest is a free escape from grapples and constraining effects. Shadow Sorcerers get a pseudo-relentless ability, although you are likely not to have max Cha.

[ProsecutorGodot]

You also lose spell slots per rest through Arcane Recovery as well as an ASI.

I wouldn't do it personally but that's more of a personal preference, it's probably not a bad trade-off if you expect to fight enemy spellcasters.

[diplomancer]

It depends; 1-2 big battles? Metamagic. 6-8 encounters? Spell mastery.

[OldTrees1]

Honestly it depends on your style of mage. For me I prefer at-will magic, so I would take Spell Mastery. However if you prefer limited resource magic, take Metamagic.

If you are asking the question, then it is probably worth it for you.

[Segev]

While it's only an Unearthed Arcana, so is playtest material, I feel the need to point out the existence of the Metamagic Adept feat, which lets you have your cake and eat it, too: Take it, and you gain 2 Sorcery Points (that can only be used for metamagic) and one metamagic of your choosing.

[follacchioso]

Thank you all for the answers. Yes, this is mostly for 1-2 big battles. Arcane Recovery is balanced by the 3 sorcery points. And no UA allowed :-)

[Yakk]

While it's only an Unearthed Arcana, so is playtest material, I feel the need to point out the existence of the Metamagic Adept feat, which lets you have your cake and eat it, too: Take it, and you gain 2 Sorcery Points (that can only be used for metamagic) and one metamagic of your choosing.

Thank you all for the answers. Yes, this is mostly for 1-2 big battles. Arcane Recovery is balanced by the 3 sorcery points. And no UA allowed :-)
Sorcerer grants flexible casting. 3 sorcery points aren't your limit with Sorc3 -- it is basically limited by your spell slots.

Metamagic Adept doesn't grant flexible casting.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I would say no, spell mastery can do so much i don’t think it’s worth it.

[Blood of Gaea]

Honestly, I think 18 Wizard/2 Fighter would be stronger, you get action surge for a Nova round, Con saves, and better armor.

[LudicSavant]

For a lv 20 character, would it be worth to give up Spell Mastery and Signature Spells, in exchange for three levels of Sorcerer and metamagic?

Advantages of lv 20 Wizard:
- Spell Mastery and Signature Spells are amazing abilities, from conjuring an infinite number of Unseen Servants to having Counterspell always prepared and recharged on a short rest
- Some abilities (Abjurer's ward) depend on wizard's level
- six more free spells (high level spells are difficult to research)

Advantages of three levels of Sorcerer:
- Subtle spells can be a game changer at high levels, avoiding any counterspell, or casting it while disguised. The other metamagic choice could be Heightened spells (for some nasty Int-based save), Distant spells, or Quickened. Many choices!
- Favoured Soul allows for some healing magic, and a short-rest bonus to saves and attack rolls. Tempest is a free escape from grapples and constraining effects. Shadow Sorcerers get a pseudo-relentless ability, although you are likely not to have max Cha.

Generally not worth it imho. A lot of the benefits of metamagic can be gained through your Wizard tools. And the last 3 levels of Wizard are quite good.

I wouldn’t do it even for 1-2 big battles. You can do some pretty crazy tricks with Signature Spells and Spell Mastery.

[Spiritchaser]

So: disclaimer, I’ve neither played nor DM’d above level 16 (in 5e) so this is hypothetical but:

This could only possibly be worth it to work the heck out of subtle spell in campaigns that very heavily feature the requirement for sneaky casting. Even then I probably wouldn’t do it, but I could see the argument. There are lots of ways to foil counterspell but this is a good one, and hidden social casting can solve problems that could be difficult to sort out other ways. How often do these come up?

Other metamagic will add tools, but not enough in my opinion.

[Keravath]

Sorcerer grants flexible casting. 3 sorcery points aren't your limit with Sorc3 -- it is basically limited by your spell slots.

Metamagic Adept doesn't grant flexible casting.

Nope. PHB under sorcery points "You can never have more sorcery points than shown on the table for your level.". A level 3 sorcerer can ONLY have 3 sorcery points even if they expend a higher level slot.

Some DMs might even decide they would not have the option of expending a higher level slot because it would give too many sorcery points.

[Mr Adventurer]

Honestly, I think 18 Wizard/2 Fighter would be stronger, you get action surge for a Nova round, Con saves, and better armor.

You'd have to start out with Fighter if you wanted the Con save. That might or might not be much of a hardship depending on what level you start at, how much you want to get started playing a spellcaster, and how optimised for Wizard play your ability scores are.

[Mr Adventurer]

A lot of the benefits of metamagic can be gained through your Wizard tools.


Would you mind expanding on that? How so? :)

[Blood of Gaea]

You'd have to start out with Fighter if you wanted the Con save. That might or might not be much of a hardship depending on what level you start at, how much you want to get started playing a spellcaster, and how optimised for Wizard play your ability scores are.
That's ideal, but not required. Fighter at levels 19 and 20 give medium armor, shields, defense fighting style, healing surge (minimal use at this level), and primarily action surge. This all means that it would work fine on a normal Wizard with 14 Dex and Con.

Of course, the arguement has to be made on if that's worse the extra slots. If you survived levels 1-18 as a straight classed Wizard, I'd argue the only real thing of worth there is Action Surge.

But, compared to taking those 3 levels of Sorcerer. Action Surge once a short rest means two spells cast on the first turn of a combat. Which should be worth much more than ~3 Sorcery points spread through each long rest. You also get to keep your at-will 1st and 2nd level spell, which the Sorcerer multiclass has to give up.

[LudicSavant]

Would you mind expanding on that? How so? :)

Just a few examples:
- Many spells increase the number of targets when upcast. For example, Twinned Banish is less efficient than upcasting Banish.

- Many higher level spells are better than applying expensive metamagic to lower level spells (which is comparably expensive in terms of resources). Kind of like with that Upcast Banish vs Twinned Banish, but more generalized.

- Many spells grant excellent bonus actions... which is basically what you'd be using Quicken Spell for (since it doesn't actually let you cast a second non-cantrip spell in a round). For example, you use all the bolts, Crown of Stars is roughly comparable to 14 SP worth of Quicken Spell (e.g. double its slot conversion value).

- There are some ways to activate spell effects without observable or counterable components. For example, you can't counterspell a Contingent spell.

- Simulacrum doubles your action economy at level 13.

- Spell Mastery and Signature Spells can do some very effective shenanigans (For example, Empowered Evocation Spell Mastery Magic Missile + Spell Mastery Dragon's Breath + Simulacrum doubling is comparable to an at-will basic Action Surge in terms of post-accuracy DPR. Spell Mastery Shield + Abjurer is practically a permanent AC upgrade that constantly recharges your Arcane Ward. You can just spam non-Concentration things like Pyrotechnics and Mirror Image. And so on and so forth). Signature Spells can essentially let you use 3rd level spells as 'one hour rituals.' Consider the implications of that and, say, Animate Dead.

- Various Wizard subclasses (like Evoker, Enchanter, and Diviner) get more efficient versions of metamagic-like effects from their subclass.

[diplomancer]

That's ideal, but not required. Fighter at levels 19 and 20 give medium armor, shields, defense fighting style, healing surge (minimal use at this level), and primarily action surge. This all means that it would work fine on a normal Wizard with 14 Dex and Con.

Of course, the arguement has to be made on if that's worse the extra slots. If you survived levels 1-18 as a straight classed Wizard, I'd argue the only real thing of worth there is Action Surge.

But, compared to taking those 3 levels of Sorcerer. Action Surge once a short rest means two spells cast on the first turn of a combat. Which should be worth much more than ~3 Sorcery points spread through each long rest. You also get to keep your at-will 1st and 2nd level spell, which the Sorcerer multiclass has to give up.

But it's not 3 sorcery points. If it's for 1-2 big fights, they will be burning up their 1st and 2nd level slots quite regularly to subtle cast their spells and avoid counterspell.

[Mr Adventurer]

That's ideal, but not required.

It is indeed required if you want Con saves from Fighter, which is all I was talking about.

[follacchioso]

I've considered two levels in fighters: but it is just too expensive in terms of spell progression. It would cost a 6th and a 7th level slot per day; that's just too much of a price to pay.

[cutlery]

Spell mastery in Misty Step and Shield seem pretty important to a wizard that will see regular combat.

When they won't see regular combat, they can swap these out.

One quickened spell a day might help deal with one scary high level enemy; spell mastery is a reliable way to deal with the run of the mill less scary enemies that remain, nonetheless, scary for a low hit die character that probably must rely on mage armor (or light armor).

[heavyfuel]

Upon reaching level 20, how long will you even play?

My experience with campaigns that get to this level is that level 20 is usually granted right before the final encounters, so you only play with your capstones for one, maybe two sessions.

That said, I'd muuuch rather have Metamagic (or a Domain power) starting at level 19, than the capstone at only level 20.

As for the ASI and Arcane Recovery, I wouldn't consider them too hard. That's your 5th ASI. You probably have Max Int and the one or two feats you really wanted. You can get better Con, but a single point to the modifier isn't likely to tip the balance either way. And Arcane Recovery can't recover your big ticket spells anyway. It's the difference between recovering 2 5th level spells instead of 1 5th level and 1 4th level.

[cutlery]

Upon reaching level 20, how long will you even play?

My experience with campaigns that get to this level is that level 20 is usually granted right before the final encounters, so you only play with your capstones for one, maybe two sessions.

That said, I'd muuuch rather have Metamagic (or a Domain power) starting at level 19, than the capstone at only level 20.



You get spell mastery at 18, though. So, to get 3 sorcery points you spend all of 18-19-20 as sorcerer.

I don't think I'd do that, and it would be an especially hard choice at 18.

I suppose if I expected to only have single encounter adventuring days from 19-20, metamagic might be worth it, but that seems like a weird choice given the three things you give up (Spell Mastery, Signature Spell, an ASI)

[heavyfuel]

You get spell mastery at 18, though. So, to get 3 sorcery points you spend all of 18-19-20 as sorcerer.

I don't think I'd do that, and it would be an especially hard choice at 18.

I suppose if I expected to only have single encounter adventuring days from 19-20, metamagic might be worth it, but that seems like a weird choice given the three things you give up (Spell Mastery, Signature Spell, an ASI)

I really have to stop commenting without checking the ability names. I thought for sure Spell Mastery was the level 20 one.

I stand by my point, though. Having at will levels 1 and 2 spells isn't that great at level 18. I'd still go for Metamagic/Domain.

[follacchioso]

Spell mastery in Misty Step and Shield seem pretty important to a wizard that will see regular combat.

When they won't see regular combat, they can swap these out.

While misty step is a great spell, casting it in combat has a great opportunity cost, because you can't cast two levelled spells in the same turn.
So, unless you plan to fight a tarrasque by casting cantrips and misty step every turn, it may be enough to have it prepared and cast it when strictly necessary. Or spend an expensive 5th slot for Far Step.

[LudicSavant]

IMHO, 3 SP worth of metamagic isn't worth Spell Mastery, ASI, and Signature Spells. Especially since that's an even progression of Good Stuff, vs Sorcerers only getting metamagic at exactly 20.

First, we need to invest in Charisma, and have it not really do much for an entire 19 levels.

Then, when we finally get our metamagic, what's the big thing we're gonna do with it, in our hypothetical big single encounter?

Empower Spell isn't that good because you won't have max Charisma and thus will reroll few dice.

Quicken Spell isn't that good because you already have amazing bonus actions at level 20.

Careful Spell has problems interacting with a lot of spells, due to the 'it only works on just one save, right when the spell is cast' aspect of its wording. Sculpt Spells puts it to shame despite the school restriction.

Twinned Spell would only be able to work on spells of up to 3rd level (because you have a 3 SP cap).

Distant Spell is of limited usefulness when you already have access to the ability to nuke people from literally a mile away, or straight up use scry'n'die tactics, or etc.

Heighten Spell uses all your SP for disadvantage on just one save on one creature, and if it's a big scary creature I'd expect them to have Legendary Resistance or something. I mean it's situationally useful but as useful as Spell Mastery, Signature Spells, and a feat? Or Spell Mastery and Action Surge if you went the Fighter route? I'm just not seeing it.

So I hope you really, really, really like Subtle Spell. And if you do, why do you like it so much? I mean sure it's good, but you should have been figuring out how to deal with counterspells effectively for the last 19 levels (heck, this coming from a person whose Wizard just went through a tier 1-4 campaign where the main enemy faction throughout was big on antimagic specialists with counterspells on steroids). Even the very features we're trading for it are helpful against counterspells. For example, Spell Mastery could have given you at-will Pyrotechnics or Invisibility.

[ProsecutorGodot]

While misty step is a great spell, casting it in combat has a great opportunity cost, because you can't cast two levelled spells in the same turn.
So, unless you plan to fight a tarrasque by casting cantrips and misty step every turn, it may be enough to have it prepared and cast it when strictly necessary. Or spend an expensive 5th slot for Far Step.

Actually you're better off flying and using misty step to kill the Tarrasque with a bow

Invisibility and Misty Step are both incredible choices for spell mastery, I don't think the opportunity cost is as simple as "I can't cast a leveled spell this turn" when you cast Misty Step, but rather "I might die if I don't Misty Step out of here"

The choice suddenly becomes a lot more obvious.

[follacchioso]

Thanks for the input. I guess it depends on the case: for me, I am building the char at lv 20, and only for a couple of one-off encounters.

There are good spells even without maximizing charisma, especially if you take Divine Soul, which grants you access to healing spells.

My metamagic choices would be Subtle and Heightened. Subtle not only for counterspell, but also for firing up big spells without anybody blaming me; and Heightened for the occasional it's-either-me-or-them situation, when I spend a 9th level slot and a fortune in GPs to cast Imprisonment, or Feeblemind on my favourite enemy.




Invisibility and Misty Step are both incredible choices for spell mastery, I don't think the opportunity cost is as simple as "I can't cast a leveled spell this turn" when you cast Misty Step, but rather "I might die if I don't Misty Step out of here"That is a good point; but in this case, having the spell prepared would be enough. Note that Spell Mastery also requires to have the spell prepared.

[ProsecutorGodot]

That is a good point; but in this case, having the spell prepared would be enough. Note that Spell Mastery also requires to have the spell prepared.

Spell Mastery can also be changed to a different spell if you happen to not need the ones you've chosen. At that level you've likely got 23 spells available to prepare, it's not as if you're hurting for room to keep essential survival spells (that you probably had prepared anyway) on that list.

The usefulness of at will teleportation/invisibility doesn't stop at combat either.

[cutlery]

While misty step is a great spell, casting it in combat has a great opportunity cost, because you can't cast two levelled spells in the same turn.



As a wizard with spell mastery, you misty step and cast a full spell every turn.

As a wiz17/sor3 you can quicken two big spells once per day and twin another spell once, or twin three spells per day. That's it.

It won't necessarily be ideal every combat, but having a bonus action teleport and a reaction shield available every round is pretty nice, and I'd rather have that at level 18 than wait until level 19 to have two sorcery points to work with.

Even if you are building for a few one off encounters - how many rounds do you think there will be? If there are three or more, I'd consider spell mastery again.

Really, if you're building for one or two encounters, just go full sorcerer and burn like the sun.

[follacchioso]

As a wizard with spell mastery, you misty step and cast a full spell every turn.
Unfortunately no, unless I am missing something Spell Mastery does not allow to bypass the restriction of only one levelled spell per turn. It can be Misty Step and a cantrip, but not two full spells.


The usefulness of at will teleportation/invisibility doesn't stop at combat either.I agree with that, teleporting every six seconds can be fun.

[cutlery]

Unfortunately no, unless I am missing something Spell Mastery does not allow to bypass the restriction of only one levelled spell per turn. It can be Misty Step and a cantrip, but not two full spells.


I'm still not seeing how three sorcery points pull ahead, in that case; unless this is a three-round fight and you plan to twin save or suck spells.

Any 1st or 2nd level spell in your book at will (with prep) is a pretty big deal.

If you just wanted to build for a nova, why not take 2 levels of fighter for the action surge?

[Kyutaru]

I'd still go with 3 sorcerer levels. "MoAr SpEllz" doesn't grant me much in the way of added utility. If I need the spell I can use another spell slot. I'm not saving all that much going full at-will wizard anymore than at-will warlocks break the game. But having hidden, fast, or far-reaching spells? That can come in handy and grants me added options beyond what I could normally already do.

[cutlery]

I'd still go with 3 sorcerer levels. "MoAr SpEllz" doesn't grant me much in the way of added utility. If I need the spell I can use another spell slot. I'm not saving all that much going full at-will wizard anymore than at-will warlocks break the game. But having hidden, fast, or far-reaching spells? That can come in handy and grants me added options beyond what I could normally already do.

I guess it depends what you think you'll run into. I can see cases where 3 SP would be really useful; I can see cases where at-will spells and two extra counterspells per day would be more useful.

It depends on if you have the chance to plan ahead post character creation but in-game, or have to adapt on the fly. SP are the clear winner there. But: If you're building for big encounters with LR in between, why not go full sorcerer?

[LudicSavant]

I'd still go with 3 sorcerer levels. "MoAr SpEllz" doesn't grant me much in the way of added utility. If I need the spell I can use another spell slot.

That's not really true. For example, a short duration non-Concentration spell is an entirely different kind of ability when it's at-will, utilized in a fundamentally different way. Not to mention that it's not just more spells and more ways of using them, it's an ASI too.

[cutlery]

Not to mention that it's not just more spells and more ways of using them, it's an ASI too.

Which could be something as strong as the Lucky feat.

[LudicSavant]

But having hidden, fast, or far-reaching spells? That can come in handy and grants me added options beyond what I could normally already do.

The false premise here is that the alternative doesn't also give you new options.

What's that, you can use 'fast spells'? Well actually it's just one Quicken in this hypothetical "1 big combat," unless you're wasting bonus actions making new SP (in which case... you're actively gutting your own action economy). Instead of Quicken giving you a single extra cantrip use at a time when you already have strong bonus actions, you could have had Lucky to reroll your initiative (potentially giving you and your simulacrum an extra turn relative to Team Monster), saving throws, counterspells, or enemy attacks. And you could have had four spells up at the beginning of combat that you otherwise wouldn't because you and your simulacrum get to spam them at-will, and thus they're up all day. And you could have had a plus-size army of Animate Dead from Signature spells. Simultaneously.


Which could be something as strong as the Lucky feat.

Indeed.