Let's Fix: The 4 Elements Monk [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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HPisBS

2020-08-28, 01:03 PM

Recently, we'd been working through Man_Over_Game's What's the Worst Subclass in the Game? (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?615764-What-s-the-worst-subclass-in-the-game) voting results. But for some reason, the series never moved on after The Assassin thread petered out a few weeks ago.

Next in line was The 4 Elements Monk, so let's see what ideas people have to fix what the forums determined was the most disappointing of all Monk subclasses.

RAW 4 Elements basically just lets you choose a single spell or spell-like-ability to learn at lvl 3, 6, 11, and 17 - all fueled with your ki. (Ki Cost = spell level +1. The maximum ki you can spend at a time = your proficiency bonus - if you're monoclass.) There's also a sort of elemental Prestidigitation cantrip to use for free starting at lvl 3, which you can presumably trade away when you learn a new "Elemental Discipline."

Breath of Winter (17th Level Required). You can spend 6 ki points to cast Cone of Cold.
Clench of the North Wind (6th Level Required). You can spend 3 ki points to cast Hold Person.
Elemental Attunement. Basically part Prestidigitation, part all 4 Elemental Evil utility cantrips, but weaker.
Eternal Mountain Defense (17th Level Required). You can spend 5 ki points to cast Stoneskin, targeting yourself.
Fangs of the Fire Snake. When you use the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to cause tendrils of flame to stretch out from your fists and feet. Your reach with your unarmed strikes increases by 10 feet for that action, as well as the rest of the turn. A hit with such an attack deals fire damage instead of bludgeoning damage, and if you spend 1 ki point when the attack hits, it also deals an extra 1d10 fire damage.
Fist of Four Thunders. You can spend 2 ki points to cast Thunderwave.
Flames of the Phoenix (11th Level Required). You can spend 4 ki points to cast Fireball.
Gong of the Summit (6th Level Required). You can spend 3 ki points to cast Shatter.
Mist Stance (11th Level Required). You can spend 4 ki points to cast Gaseous Form, targeting yourself.
Ride the Wind (11th Level Required). You can spend 4 ki points to cast Fly, targeting yourself.
River of Hungry Flame (17th Level Required). You can spend 5 ki points to cast Wall of Fire.
Rush of the Gale Spirits. You can spend 2 ki points to cast Gust of Wind.
Shape the Flowing River. As an action, you can spend 1 ki point to choose an area of ice or water no larger than 30 feet on a side within 120 feet of you. You can change water to ice within the area and vice versa, and you can reshape ice in the area in any manner you choose. You can raise or lower the ice's elevation, create or fill in a trench, erect or flatten a wall, or form a pillar. The extent of any such changes can't exceed half the area's largest dimension. For example, if you affect a 30-foot square, you can create a pillar up to 15 feet high. raise or lower the square's elevation by up to 15 feet, dig a trench up to 15 feet deep, and so on. You can't shape the ice to trap or injure a creature in the area.
Sweeping Cinder Strike. You can spend 2 ki points to cast Burning Hands.
Unbroken Air. You can create a blast of compressed air that strikes like a mighty fist. As an action, you can spend 2 ki points and choose a creature within 30 feet of you. That creature must make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 3d10 bludgeoning damage, plus an extra 1d10 bludgeoning damage for each additional ki point you spend, and you can push the creature up to 20 feet away from you and knock it prone. On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage, and you don't push it or knock it prone.
Water Whip. You can spend 2 ki points as an action to create a whip of water that shoves and pulls a creature to unbalance it. A creature that you can see that is within 30 feet of you must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 3d10 bludgeoning damage, plus an extra 1d10 bludgeoning damage for each additional ki point you spend, and you can either knock it prone or pull it up to 25 feet closer to you. On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage, and you don't pull it or knock it prone.
Wave of Rolling Earth (17th Level Required). You can spend 6 ki points to cast Wall of Stone.

The problems with ^ that RAW^ were summarized in the original thread as:
Four Elements is atrocious... There are so many bad points to it.
1) You only get to pick a tiny number of powers.
2) You have a tiny list to pick from.
3) The Powers aren't very good.
4) They don't synergise at all with the rest of what your class does.
5) They use a resource which your other class abilities also use.
6) They use too much of this resource.
That's a lot to be wrong with a subclass.

That is a lot to be wrong with a single subclass, so how would you fine forum folks go about fixing it?

I think I found a way to address most of them, so I'll start us off with the first comment.

HPisBS

2020-08-28, 01:04 PM

My basic idea, which I'd previously put in Homebrew Design (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?615777-4-Elements-Monk-Revamped&p=24639769), was to keep the core of the subclass intact, but add on some relatively minor buffs based on which kinds of disciplines you know. You can learn a discipline for each element and gain a bunch of cool and useful things to do for free, or you can specialize in one particular element until you truly master it.

With this fix, the first two disciplines of each element grant unique features:

Air 1) If you know at least one discipline that is specifically related to air, you gain the following additional benefits:

You know the Gust cantrip.
When you use Step of the Wind to Dash, you can do so at double speed. Dashing never causes you exhaustion.

Air 2) If you know at least two disciplines that are specifically related to air, you gain the following additional benefits:

The distance and height you can jump increases by an amount equal to your speed increase from Unarmored Movement, and the distance you can fall without taking damage increases by the same amount. When you use your Slow Fall reaction, you may apply its damage reduction to another creature you're holding onto.
As a bonus action, you can use ki to wrap strong, rapidly oscillating winds around all daggers and darts you wield for 1 minute. When you do so, they act as magical monk weapons with a bonus to attack and damage rolls of +1 per 2 ki points spent whenever you attack with them. Alternatively, you may activate this ability as part of your Deflect Missiles reaction, and it applies to any such missiles you throw.

... I personally think step of the wind should let you jump a distance/height equal to your current unarmored movement speed bonus.

Water 1) If you know at least one discipline that is specifically related to water, you gain the following additional benefits:

You know the Shape Water cantrip.
When you disengage, you can shape nearby water into fog which heavily obscures your space until the start of your next turn. You may then choose to return it to its previous location.

Water 2) If you know at least two disciplines that are specifically related to water, you gain the following additional benefits:

When you disengage, you can use nearby water to create an area of icy, difficult terrain along any 15 ft you travel after disengaging. Other creatures must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw upon entering this area or else fall prone. This effect ends at the start of your next turn, at which time, you may choose to return the water to its previous location.
You can make nearby water form a tendril that wraps around your free hand, which you can use to make magical unarmed attacks with a range of 10 ft.

Earth 1) If you know at least one discipline that is specifically related to earth, you gain the following additional benefits:

You know the Mold Earth cantrip.
As an unarmed attack, you can stomp on earthen or stony ground, causing it to reach up and grab a creature standing on the same surface within 15' feet of you. The creature must make a Dexterity save or be grappled until the start of your next turn. The effect ends early if the creature succeeds on a Strength (Athletics) check against your ki save DC. A Huge or larger creature has advantage on both the save and Athletics check.

Earth 2) If you know at least two disciplines that are specifically related to earth, you gain the following additional benefits:

Pebbles become magical ranged monk weapons for you with a range of 30/90 ft. You may throw a pebble within 5 ft of you without touching it.
When you Dodge, you can spend ki to cover parts of your body with nearby rocks, increasing your AC by 1 per 2 ki points spent for 1 minute.

Fire 1) If you know at least one discipline that is specifically related to fire, you gain the following additional benefits:

You know the Control Flames cantrip.
As a bonus action, you can breathe fire and cause flames to brightly flare up from your hands or weapon(s). When you do so, one creature of your choice within your melee range must succeed on a Wisdom save or be frightened of you until the end of your next turn. A creature has advantage on this save if you use it on that creature again before dealing fire damage to it. Any creature with resistance or immunity to fire damage is immune to this effect.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier. You regain all uses when you finish a long rest.

Fire 2) If you know at least two disciplines that are specifically related to fire, you gain the following additional benefits:

You know the Produce Flame cantrip.
As a reaction when you take fire or lightning damage, you may roll your martial arts die to reduce that damage by the number you roll + your Wisdom modifier. When you do so, you may redirect that same damage at another creature within 5 ft of you by making a melee spell attack. Alternatively, you may spend 1 ki point to redirect the damage using a ranged spell attack with a range of 15/30 ft. Wisdom is your attack modifier for this feature.

F1)
- Control Flames cantrip
- Reaction to taking fire or lightning damage to reduce that damage by your Wis mod, to a minimum of 1/2 the damage you would've taken.

F2)
- Produce Flame cantrip
- Reaction when using Evasion to reduce fire or lightning damage: spend 2 ki pts to make 1 target within 30 ft make a Dex save against your ki save DC. If it fails, it takes 1/2 of the damage you Evaded.

Further specialization into a single element functions the same way for each element.

Once per turn, if you know 3 disciplines related to the same element, you may add 1d6 to one associated damage roll.
If you know 4 disciplines related to the same element, then choose one of those disciplines; you now use that discipline as a bonus action instead of an action. You may change this choice whenever you finish a long rest.
If you know 5 disciplines related to the same element, you may spend 6 ki points to cast the associated Investiture spell.

- If you know a discipline that has an ambiguous relation to two or more of these elements, then you decide which one to count it as.

Lastly, there obviously aren't enough RAW disciplines to specialize in each element, so here's a list to fill in the holes. Plus an enhancement to Fire Snake.

Air:
Aegis of the Whirlwind - 2 ki pts to cast Warding Wind
Waves of Rising Air (6th Level Required) - 3 ki pts to cast Wind Wall
Leap of Rushing Winds (11th Level Required) - 4 ki pts to cast Thunder Step

Water:
Freezing Wake - 2 ki pts to create an area of icy difficult terrain, as per the Grease spell.
Talon of the Snowy Owl - 2 ki pts to cast Ice Knife
Thirst of the Whales - 2 ki pts to cast Create or Destroy Water
Wave of Rising Waters (6th Level Required) - 3 ki pts to cast Water Wall
Wrath of the Raging Tide (11th Level Required) - 4 ki pts to cast Tidal Wave
Grasp of the Merciless Seas (17th Level Required) - 5 ki pts to cast Watery Sphere

Earth:
Step of Roiling Ground - 2 ki pts to cast Earth Tremor
Swift Stone Guard - 2 ki pts to cast Shield
Arm of the Hills (6th Level Required) - 3 ki pts to cast Maximillian’s Earthen Grasp
Quills of the Earth (6th Level Required) - 3 ki pts to cast Spike Growth
Bursting Mountain (11th Level Required) - 4 ki pts to cast Erupting Earth
Stone as Clay (11th Level Required) - 4 ki pts to cast Stone Shape

Fire:
Fangs of the Fire Snake - Enhancement -- Same as RAW, +

Alternatively, you may activate this discipline without spending any ki points as a bonus action. When you use it in this way, the discipline ends at the end of your turn, unless you use your concentration to maintain it as if concentrating on a spell.
Vengeance of the Fire Ant - 2 ki pts to cast Hellish Rebuke
Flame Darts (6th Level Required) - 3 ki pts to cast Scorching Ray
Sneeze of the Dragon (6th Level Required) - 3 ki pts to cast Pyrotechnics

Also, for Elemental Attunement:

Elemental Attunement - Enhancement -- Same as Raw, +

You may choose not to learn this discipline. However, if you do know it, then you may treat it the same as knowing 1 discipline related to any element you choose. Also, you may replace that choice with a different element whenever you finish a long rest.
At level 6: You may treat this discipline the same as knowing a discipline related to any two different elements of your choice. You may replace one of these elements whenever you finish a long rest.
At level 11: You may treat this discipline the same as knowing a discipline related to any three different elements of your choice. You may replace one of these elements whenever you finish a long rest.
At level 17: This discipline counts as knowing one discipline of all four elements.

1) You'd technically still get the same number of picks, but, those picks would net you at least 5 more powers by the end.
2) I expanded the list with more spells to choose from.
3) Except for Fangs of the Fire Snake and Elemental Attunement, the disciplines still have the same level of quality. Spells are spells, after all. Except each would also get you extra powers now.
4) Most of the element-dependent features I brewed are straight buffs to base Monk abilities. Plus, Shield spell definitely does synergize.
5 and 6) The ki costs would remain unchanged (except for Fire Snake), but all of the features I added include ki-free uses, or at least no-extra-ki-cost uses, à la Open Hand Techniques.

My main concerns are, as usual, whether it's balanced enough, and also that it may just be too busy, even if it is balanced. I mean, it's sorta like having 4 subclasses in 1 that you also mix-and-match according to your (very limited) spell selection.

So what do y'all think about it, and how would you go about fixing the subclass instead?

Man_Over_Game

2020-08-28, 01:14 PM

Aett_Thorn

2020-08-28, 01:29 PM

The main problem with 4E Monks is that they exacerbate the main issue with Monks in general: that short-rest classes are highly dependent on the DM having a pacing schedule that requires short rests. 4E exacerbates this by having high Ki-cost items.

However, the way that I see it, I think that the subclass could be mainly about doing two things:

1) Add a clause to their powers that allows you to use Martial Arts (including Flurry of Blows) after using one of your 4E powers.

2) Lower the spell cost of TIER 1 and 2 4E powers by 1 ki, while leaving the higher-level abilities as they are. This would free up resources when they are most expensive, while having the higher-level stuff be about the same.

Now, they could also use some new abilities, since they basically get stuck with only the PHB abilities and have never gained more.

Ionathus

2020-08-28, 01:53 PM

However, the way that I see it, I think that the subclass could be mainly about doing two things:

1) Add a clause to their powers that allows you to use Martial Arts (including Flurry of Blows) after using one of your 4E powers.

2) Lower the spell cost of TIER 1 and 2 4E powers by 1 ki, while leaving the higher-level abilities as they are. This would free up resources when they are most expensive, while having the higher-level stuff be about the same.

I really like your 1) here. The core of the Monk class is built around those Martial Arts features -- Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, Step of the Wind -- and that really shines through in things like Open Hand or Drunken Master, where the features are often "when you use Flurry of Blows, [extra effect]". I think there's a lot there that could help 4E Monk distinguish itself from "less-capable monk who also gets a few overly-costly spells."

Honestly HPisBS, I'm tempted to just lift this entire reworked class whole-cloth. It offers so much more versatility and lets the PC feel unique and synergized, rather than having their elemental powers feel tacked on. Amazing work!

Amnestic

2020-08-28, 02:12 PM

Every ki point needs to be balanced against using stunning strike, and while SS is part of the monk's base toolkit, that's what the baseline is.

If SS is too strong, that's a monk issue, not a 4Ele issue. 4Ele, in order to be viable while still retaining the base monk chassis, needs to either a) have viable alternatives for ki usage against stunning strike or b) action uses that don't cost ki. Possibly both.

It also needs to embody 4 Elements. It's not a specialist in one element, like a Fire Monk or a Water Monk. It's a 4 Elements Monk.

I don't want to do a full rewrite but some ideas:

a) They get the four elemental cantrips (gust, mold earth, shape water, control flames) at 3rd level. All of them.
b) At 3rd, 6th, 11th, and 17th you learn four elemental abilities - one of each element, so at 17th level you'd have 16 different elemental abilities, 4 of each element. Separate lists for the 3rd, 6th, 11th and 17th choices. Some would cost ki, some wouldn't, depending on power. Perhaps include passive abilities among them - such as a non-ki cost damage type buff.

Edea

2020-08-28, 03:08 PM

I gave it a shot (I prefer starting off potentially overpowered/'looks cool', and then working things downward from critique). It cribs off of 1/3 casters so it's not exactly original, but I think it helps with the monk's resource management issues a bit (and yes, I'm aware that ki refreshes on a short rest; I think the feature involving that snag comes on late enough, and on a 'half-slot progression in a multiclass' option to boot, that it's not easily abusable).Spellcasting
When you reach 3rd level, you expand the scope of your monastic practice with the ability to cast spells associated with nature and the elements. See chapter 10 of the PHB for the general rules of spellcasting and below for the way of the elements spell list.

Cantrips
You learn three cantrips of your choice from the way of the elements spell list. You learn an additional way of the elements cantrip of your choice at 10th level.
Spell Slots
The Way of the Elements Spellcasting table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.
Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher
You know three 1st Level way of the elements spells of your choice. The Spells Known column of the Way of the Elements Spellcasting table shows when you learn more way of the elements spells of 1st Level or higher. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
At the end of a long rest or whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the way of the elements spells you know with another spell of your choice from the way of the elements spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
Spellcasting Ability
Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your way of the elements spells, as you learn your spells through meditation and expansion of your environmental awareness. You use your Wisdom whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Wisdom modifer when setting the saving throw DC for a way of the elements spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.
Spell Save DC: 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier
Spell attack modifier: your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier
DM Note about Way of the Elements Spell List
A way of the elements monk should also be able to choose spells not on the way of the elements spell list so long as they deal with the elements; when new material is published with appropriate spells, consider adding those spells to this list. Alternatively, you could allow the way of the elements monk player to add the druid spell list (from 0 to 4th level) to the list provided.

Elemental Flexibility
Starting at 7th level, you can use elemental energy to infuse yourself with ki, or utilize your ki to create new spell slots.
Creating Spell Slots
You can transform unexpended ki into spell slots as a bonus action on your turn. The Creating Spell Slots table shows the cost of creating a spell slot of a given level. You can create spell slots no higher in level than 3rd with this feature.

Spell Slot Ki
1st 3
2nd 4
3rd 5
Converting a Spell Slot into Ki
As a bonus action on your turn, you can expend one spell slot and gain an amount of ki equal to the slot's level.

Elemental Resonance
Starting at 11th level, natural energy infuses your basic monk class features, causing them to behave in alternative or more effective ways as detailed below.
When using Flurry of Blows, instead of making two additional unarmed strikes, you can choose to cast a cantrip that would normally have a 1 action casting time.
When using Patient Defense, you also have advantage on any saving throw against an effect that deals typed damage (other than slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing), even if it is not a Dexterity saving throw.
When using Step of the Wind, you are also able to fly at your normal speed (including any bonus from your Unarmored Movement feature) until the start of your next turn.
When using Stunning Strike, you can force the target to make a Dexterity saving throw against the stunning effect instead of a Constitution saving throw. Doing this causes a large burst of elemental energy to erupt from the target as an obvious but otherwise harmless visual effect.
Elemental Embodiment
At 17th level, you gain the ability to assume the form of an elemental.
By spending 6 ki points as a bonus action, you transform yourself into an air, earth, fire, or water elemental, and can switch between elemental forms. This mostly follows the same rules as the shapechange spell, save for the following:
This ability does not require any components (and has the aforementioned bonus action casting time).
This ability only lasts for up to one round per level and does not require concentration.
You are restricted to assuming your natural form and the forms of air, earth, fire, and/or water elementals of a challenge rating equal to your level or lower for the duration of the effect.
Any equipment you are wearing automatically merges into forms other than your natural form.
Way of the Elements Spellcasting
Spell Slots Per Day
Monk Level Cantrips Spells Known 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
3rd 3 3 2 — — —
4th 3 4 3 — — —
5th 3 4 3 — — —
6th 3 5 3 — — —
7th 3 6 4 2 — —
8th 3 6 4 2 — —
9th 3 7 4 2 — —
10th 4 8 4 3 — —
11th 4 8 4 3 — —
12th 4 9 4 3 — —
13th 4 10 4 3 2 —
14th 4 10 4 3 2 —
15th 4 11 4 3 2 —
16th 4 12 4 3 3 —
17th 4 12 4 3 3 —
18th 4 13 4 3 3 —
19th 4 14 4 3 3 1
20th 4 14 4 3 3 1Cantrips
acid splash, booming blade, chill touch, control flames, create bonfire, fire bolt, frostbite, green-flame blade, gust, light, lightning lure, mold earth, poison spray, produce flame, ray of frost, shape water, shocking grasp, thunderclap

1st
absorb elements, burning hands, chromatic orb, create or destroy water, earth tremor, faerie fire, feather fall, fog cloud, grease, ice knife, magic missile, thunderous smite, thunderwave, zephyr strike

2nd
aganazzar's scorcher, cloud of daggers, continual flame, dust devil, earthbind, flame blade, flaming sphere, gust of wind, heat metal, levitate, maximilian's earthen grasp, melf's acid arrow, moonbeam, pyrotechnics, scorching ray, snilloc's snowball swarm

3rd
call lightning, daylight, elemental weapon, erupting earth, fireball, flame arrows, fly, gaseous form, lightning arrow, lightning bolt, meld into stone, protection from energy, sleet storm, stinking cloud, thunder step, tidal wave, wall of sand, wall of water, water breathing, water walk, wind wall

4th
conjure minor elementals, control water, elemental bane, fire shield, freedom of movement, ice storm, stone shape, stoneskin, storm sphere, vitriolic sphere, wall of fire, watery sphere

Dienekes

2020-08-28, 03:18 PM

Edea

2020-08-28, 03:28 PM

Honestly, I’d first ask what we’re trying to do with the subclass. Are we attempting to make a blaster-monk which is what the actual subclass does sorta kinda okish[...]Or are we trying to make an AtLA character in D&D which the subclass is miserable at. But what many people thought it was trying to do.

The former, at least for me.

IMO 5e will not properly emulate AtLA characters in combat, or at least not via something as simple as a sub-class/archetype. All of the stuff they do is at-will and would be either grossly overpowered, overly complicated to describe because each bending effect would need its own mechanical description (think Battle Master maneuver list but on turbo-crack), or both. Also they'd be stuck with a single element for most (if not all) of their character's existence, which I greatly dislike from a mechanical standpoint (it's one of the many reasons PF's kineticist has such a low approval rating).

Dienekes

2020-08-28, 03:33 PM

The former, at least for me.

IMO 5e will not properly emulate AtLA characters in combat, or at least not via something as simple as a sub-class/archetype. All of the stuff they do is at-will and would be either grossly overpowered, overly complicated to describe because each bending effect would need its own mechanical description (think Battle Master maneuver list but on turbo-crack), or both. Also they'd be stuck with a single element for most (if not all) of their character's existence, which I greatly dislike from a mechanical standpoint (it's one of the many reasons PF's kineticist has such a low approval rating).

Fair enough. I personally find this less interesting. And don't personally think making different distinct mechanics for abilities sounds too hard, considering that's already what has happened with spellcasting. But definitely think slapping spells onto Monks is an understandable and far easier goal to achieve.

And on that note, I agree with your own work. Just giving Monks 1/3 Spellcasting with the spell list we want for them already solves a good chunk of the Ki Points problem.

Edea

2020-08-28, 03:38 PM

Also, I'm not necessarily suggesting the AtLA style's impossible to achieve in 5e, just that I feel it deserves for more attention/design space than a mere sub-class.

Basically, I would want the base class 'shugenja', or something similar to that name, and then just build the whole damn thing from the ground up with that style in mind.

HPisBS

2020-08-28, 04:07 PM

Honestly, I’d first ask what we’re trying to do with the subclass. Are we attempting to make a blaster-monk which is what the actual subclass does sorta kinda okish.

Or are we trying to make an AtLA character in D&D which the subclass is miserable at. But what many people thought it was trying to do.

I'd say the latter.

3) Four Elements Monk: The designers have stated the goal was to play like Avatar. This does not feel anything like it.
- What's the Worst Subclass in the Game? thread

Idk if the devs actually said that or where, but Avatar is certainly what I had in mind when I was brewing. And, contrary to Edea's estimation,

IMO 5e will not properly emulate AtLA characters in combat, or at least not via something as simple as a sub-class/archetype. All of the stuff they do is at-will and would be either grossly overpowered, overly complicated to describe because each bending effect would need its own mechanical description (think Battle Master maneuver list but on turbo-crack), or both.
- I think simply adding elemental buffs / riders to base Monk abilities can go a long way towards that end. Extra Step of the Wind speed, extra jump / safe falling distance for Air. Icy terrain and watery appendages with reach for Water. And so on.

Also they'd be stuck with a single element for most (if not all) of their character's existence, which I greatly dislike from a mechanical standpoint.

With the way I revamped it, you'd potentially start with features of two elements at lvl 3, and potentially all 4 at lvl 6 (if you chose disciplines for two different elements, and to keep Elemental Attunement, and to apply it to the two elements you otherwise wouldn't know). Or, you could choose to specialize instead if you'd rather play like Pyro or Sandman instead of like Aang.

...
Honestly HPisBS, I'm tempted to just lift this entire reworked class whole-cloth. It offers so much more versatility and lets the PC feel unique and synergized, rather than having their elemental powers feel tacked on. Amazing work!

Thank you so much! :smallbiggrin:
Feel free, I'd be honored if you do!

Edit:
Actually, though, I'm still a little unsatisfied with the 1st Water ability. I mean, as cool as the idea of Batman-ing out in the cover of fog is, does what I have written really do enough? It's only a single 5 ft space right now, but it seems like making it any stronger might make it too powerful....

Edit edit:
Now that I think about it again, I guess you could just step forward into an enemy's space, then disengage, effectively blinding him with that 1 space of fog?

Dienekes

2020-08-28, 05:39 PM

Idk if the devs actually said that or where, but Avatar is certainly what I had in mind when I was brewing.

In some old interview where the designer were discussing the classes and subclasses Jeremy Crawford discussed the inspirations they had. Avatar was literally the first one mentioned with the 4 Elements Monk. Though admittedly, it was not the only inspiration.

Christew

2020-08-28, 05:48 PM

Though I normally hate on the Mystic as a class design, I do think it could be a good base for improving 4E monk. Wu Jen was closer to interesting.

Underpowered subclass + overpowered UA = vaguely reasonable?

Zevox

2020-08-28, 06:12 PM

Amnestic

2020-08-28, 06:37 PM

The latter is what I would want to do. I don't see much point to a "blaster Monk," but a Monk that mimicks the sort of play style that Avatar's benders have seems like an excellent idea, and very much feels like the whole reason they would've tried to make this subclass to begin with.

I don't have any big detailed fixes to suggest, but I have had one idea for it that I might suggest to my DM someday, should I decide I really want to try playing one: crib the Sun Soul Monk's "Radiant Sun Bolt" ability, but change it from blasts of radiant damage to the four elements (doing fire, bludgeoning [earth], cold [water], or thunder[?] [air] damage, depending on which element you choose). Probably doesn't make the subclass much more powerful, but it does fix one of its biggest failings at representing a Bender-style character by giving them the ability to always be using their element for combat, not just a few times until they run out of Ki points to do it with.

I'd link it to stances that provide minor passive buffs and determine the damage type, that you could change as a move action.
Perhaps one of the leveled abilities later would give some incentive to cycle through the stances.

Christew

2020-08-28, 07:44 PM

Dienekes

2020-08-28, 09:42 PM

So I’m going to go ahead and spitball AtLA abilities.

Partially because we got some people pushing that direction, but also because Edea’s Caster Monk is about as good as I expect we’re going to get. The one suggestion I would make is that at 7th level they should get the ability to make Flurry of Blows after casting a cantrip. And at 17th level after casting a spell.

Or just make both at 7th. They already have to spend Ki to do it.

Other than that, the only thing I worry about is the ability to funnel short rest gained Ki into long rest gained Spell slots. That’s a recipe for the coffeelock style shenanigans.

Anyway to the AtLA monk.

First thought. We want the Monk to regularly fight with their power. Not horde it for a big blast. Now before I go further I’ll mention my ideas tend toward overly complicated. So probably going to rein me in.

Anyway. my goal is to make Aang, Toph, Katara, and Zuko all viable builds. Meaning you can master 1 or all 4 elements.

I’m thinking of taking inspiration from Totem Warrior here. Every level you get options each tied to a specific element.

Level 3. This is probably where I add too much power. But I’m thinking

Cantrips: at 3rd level you select any two of the following cantrips.
Control Flames, Produce Flames
Gust, Mage Hand (in the shape of a small vortex of whirling air)
Magic Stone, Mold Earth
Shape Water, Ray of Frost

In addition you pick 2 Elemental Martial Arts

Fire 1: you gain access to Fire Stance. While in Fire Stance you can spend 1 Ki to make all your attacks for your Turn ranged attacks that deals fire damage.

Fire 2: you gain access to Fire Stance. While in Fire Stance you can spend 1 Ki to cast an 5 foot radius area of effect Dexterity saving throw for half fire damage spell.

Fire Stance: You can enter Fire Stance as a Bonus Action. You can only be in one Elemental Stance at a time. While in Fire Stance your unarmed attacks deal an extra 1d6 fire damage.

Earth 1: you gain access to Earth Stance. While in Earth Stance you can spend 1 Ki to throw a boulder at someone.

Earth 2: you gain access to Earth Stance. While in Earth Stance you can spend 1 Ki to force opponents in a cone to make a Strength check or fall prone and have their Speed halved on their next turn.

Earth Stance: Bonus Action to enter. Only one elemental stance at a time, yadda yadda. While in Earth Stance you gain Tremorsense our 15 feet away from you. And so long as you are on the ground gain Advantage on all saving throws and ability checks to resist being moved, knocked prone, or grappled.

Air 1: Gain Air Stance. While in Air Stance you can spend 1 Ki and an attack to knock everyone in a cone back 15 feet.

Air 2: Gain Air Stance. While in Air Stance you can spend 1 Ki to make all your attacks have a 30 foot reach for the turn. Each hit deals less damage but can halve their movement after a save.

Air Stance: Bonus Action. Only one stance at a time. While in Air Stance your Speed increase by +10, you have Advantage on all Dexterity saving throws and opponents have Disadvantage on Opportunity Attacks.

Water 1: gain Water Stance. While in Water Stance you can spend 1 Ki to gain Resistance to Fire damage and some Temporary Hit Points until you leave Water Stance.

Water 2: gain Water Stance. While in Water Stance if you have Grappled an opponent you can spend 1 Ki Point as an attack to encase them in ice. They are considered restrained and you no longer have them grappled. A Strength check or fire damage will free them from the ice.

Water Stance. Bonus Action. One stance. While in Water Stance your Reach increases to 15 feet. You gain Advantage on Grapple attempts against opponents further than 5 feet away from you.

Then at levels 6, 11, and 17 you get an additional ability. Each still provides the Elemental Stance and we can hit a few of the favorites like Big Fireball and Lightning Bending. Stone Prison and Massive Earthquake. Ice Shards and Healing. Tornado and Flying.

You get the idea.

But at 17 we also let them choose a Mastery. Something that can show their dedication to one element. Fire could perhaps burn away Fire Resistance. Water could Bloodbend. Earth can shape the battlefield to their liking. Air could... do something.

But for those who are not focusing on one element. You have the option to choose Avatar State. Which lets you use whichever ability you want regardless of the stance you’re in and spend Ki to pick up non-mastery Elemental Martial Arts.

Anyway. That’s my pitch.

Amnestic

2020-08-29, 06:52 AM

If we are focusing on blasting, we have to worry about stepping into reworking Sun Soul territory.

Sun Soul's bad and conceptually not very interesting to me, so honestly I think that's fine. Sun Soul could probably do with a rework all on its own honestly.

Now that it's the weekend (woo) let's type up my spitballed ideas. Precise wording and numbers aren't really important here, it's the ideas trying to be conveyed.

3rd Level

Stance of the Elements: You gain access to the Stances of Air, Earth, Fire and Water. These stances are used to determine which element's abilities you have access to that turn along with the damage of your Elemental Assault ability. You can enter a new stance as part of a move action freely.

Stance of Air: While in this stance you gain +5' to your base movement speed and advantage on Acrobatics checks.

Stance of Earth: While in this stance, your base movement speed is lowered by 10', you gain +1 AC, and advantage on Athletics checks.

Stance of Fire: While in this stance, any creature that hits you in melee range instantly takes fire damage equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1)

Stance of Water: While in this stance, whenever you deal damage to a creature, you can heal a friendly creature within 30' for hit points equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1)

The stances should all be minor buffs which nevertheless feel unique in changing how you play. I tried to play Air/Earth and Fire/Water as direct opposites. Air maybe the weakest, given monks already go fast. I'd consider adding another rider to it.

Water I'm still unsure if it's too strong or weak honestly. Late game it's up to +20 HP/turn if you hit with all attacks on a flurry of blows, if you max out Wis, but early game it's probably only going to be a minor boost - 2-3 per attack, probably averaging around 4/turn, which is top-up health. Useful if you get into a yo-yo situation but many DMs take steps to avoid that.

Fire I'm not worried about - it's a commonly resisted damage type and monks are pretty squishy with most of their defense coming from evasion not health.

There's probably words to be made about how you can't be in a stance while unconscious or incapacitated but I'm not really interested in the nitty gritty stuff at this stage. "Can you move? You're in a stance. Can you not move? You're not in a stance." is the intention.

Elemental Attunement: You gain the use of the Gust, Mold Earth, Control Flames and Shape Water cantrips.

Not much to say here - it's essentially a ribbon with extremely minor combat uses, but more likely you'll be using this for flavour, RP or exploration boost.

Elemental Assault: You gain a new attack option that you can use with the Attack action. This special attack is can be used either as a melee strike or a ranged spell attack with a range equal to your base movement speed. You are proficient with it, and you add your Dexterity modifier to its attack and damage rolls. Its damage is determined by your current Elemental Stance (Air=Thunder, Earth=Magical Bludgeoning, Fire=Fire, Water=Cold), and its damage die is a equal to your Martial Arts die.

When you take the Attack action on your turn and use this special attack as part of it, you can use your bonus action to make another attack, or spend 1 ki point to make two.

When you gain the Extra Attack feature, this special attack can be used for any of the attacks you make as part of the Attack action.

Directly cribbed from Sun Soul except better - it no longer requires Ki to use on a bonus action, only for Flurry of Blows equivalent.

ATLA has the benders being able to effortlessly use their elemental powers in melee, there's no reason we can't do the same. It turns on Magical damage earlier than monks usually get it (essentially making Ki-Empowered Strikes pointless) but...honestly I think that's fine. It can't deliver Stunning Strike at range but can in melee.

6th Level

Elemental Disciplines: You learn one Discipline of each element, with an additional four (one of each element) learned at 8th, 11th, and 17th levels. Whenever you level up you can replace one elemental discipline with another of the same element that you can learn. Disciplines are detailed in their own spoiler section below. You need to be in the appropriate stance to use the relevant elemental discipline.

3rd Level was getting crowded so I've moved the Disciplines to 6th+, but drastically increased the number you get vs. original version. It's a little 'frontloaded' at 6th, 8th *and* 11th but this is primarily because games don't often go beyond those levels. The exact number of levels could be switched (eg. 6th, 10th, 14th, 18th) but the core idea is you get four lots of four.

11th Level
Flowing Momentum: Whenever you change to a stance to one you have not entered in the past 3 turns, you gain a stacking +1 damage to your Elemental Assault ability, which stacks to a maximum of +4. If you do not switch stances for a turn or change to a stance you have previously been using in the previous 3 turns, the damage boost lowers by 1 each turn until you switch to a new, unused stance.

Here we get a stance dance incentive - extra damage on elemental assault per hit. This one's strength will depend a lot on how long your combats go turn-to-turn and numbers can be tweaked. Wording's a little clunky but the idea is you want to be flowing through each element in turn to get the full boost, but if you don't want to do so (if you *need* to switch for a Discipline for instance) it doesn't reduce to zero instantly, but slowly lowers, giving you the chance to pick up the rotation again.

Potential change could have the baseline damage boost equal to your WisMod and then +1 for each turn thereafter, so it'd cap out at +9 per attack once your Wis is maxed. Probably too strong? Maybe there's a middle ground.

17th Level

Elemental Mastery: You enter a perfectly attuned state of the elements. Once per long rest you can enter this state as a bonus action. You gain a fly speed equal to your double your base movement speed, all of the benefits of your elemental stances (without the negative from Stance of Earth) and Flowing Momentum's Damage boost is maximised and doubled for Elemental Mastery's duration. In addition, you can cast the following spells once each while this state lasts without providing any components: Storm of Vengeance, Earthquake, Whirlwind, Control Weather, Fire Storm, Tsunami. Your control of these spells is so perfect you can exclude any terrain, objects or creatures from the damage/effects at will. The state lasts for one minute before returning you to normal.

Our 'avatar state'. I'm not entirely sure about Storm of Vengeance and Control Weather. They could be excluded if needs be. I considered Meteor Swarm instead of Fire Storm decided against it. Concentration is the main restriction on all of them being thrown out willy-nilly. It's very powerful. It's meant to be. One consideration to reduce its power might be to increase the cooldown from 1/LR to 1d4LR or 7 days (a la Divine Intervention).

6th Level
Air
Leaf on the Wind - As a bonus action your jump height and distance are doubled, you gain advantage on Strength (Athletics) checks related to jumping, and you gain advantage of Stealth checks. In addition, you are always under the effect of Slow Fall while conscious (regardless of Stance).
Gong of the Summit - As an action you can spend 1 ki point to cast Shatter

Fire
Fangs of the Fire Snake - When you hit with an Elemental Assault, you can spend 1 ki to enhance the damage by 1d10. The enemies are Burned by this damage, and take an additional 1d10 fire damage at the start of their next 2 turns.
Blazing Heart - As an action you can spend 1 ki to cast Flaming Sphere.

Earth
Earth Steps - As a bonus action, you can spend 1 ki to gain Tremorsense 60' and a burrow speed equal to your base walking speed for one minute.
Shield of the Earth - As a reaction you can use your Deflect Missiles ability to protect an ally within 30' of you. Any damage not prevented is taken by the original target of the attack, and if the damage is reduced to 0, you can't make an attack with the weapon/ammunition.

Water
Water Whip - As an action, you can spend 1 ki to use Water Whip. Choose a number of creatures equal to your Wisdom Modifier (minimum 1) within 30' of you. Each must make a Dexterity Save or take 2d8 cold/bludgeoning damage and fall prone. On a successful save they take half damage and do not fall prone.
Among the Tides - As an action you can grant yourself and up to 10 friendly creatures within 30' the effects of the Water Breathing spell for 30 seconds. At 11th level, the duration increases to 30 minutes.

8th Level
Air
Ride the Wind - You can spend 2 ki points to cast Fly, targeting yourself.
Currents of the Heart - You become adept at reading the flow of battle. As a reaction you can predict the attack of an enemy within 30' of you, giving it disadvantage. In addition, you gain advantage on all Insight and Persuasion checks.

Fire
Flames of the Phoenix - You can spend 2 ki points to cast Fireball.
Burning Heart - You gain resistance to fire and cold damage. If you already have resistance to either from another source, they become Immunity.

Earth
Earth's Fury - You can spend 2 ki points to cast Erupting Earth.
Shift the Plates - As a reaction, you can shift the ground around you. When an enemy whose feet are touching the ground enters melee range with a friendly creature who is within 30' of you, you can move the friendly or hostile creature (but not both) 15' in any horizontal direction.

Water
When it Rains, it Pours - You can spend 2 ki points to cast Sleet Storm.
One with the Water - You gain a swim speed equal to your base movement speed.

11th Level
Air
Sweeping Winds - You can spend 3 ki points to cast Wind Wall.
Winding Together - You can spend 3 ki points to cast Warding Wind, targeting yourself and two other creatures within 30' of you.

Fire
River of Hungry Flame - You can spend 3 ki points to cast Wall of Fire.
Living Fire - As an action you can sense any living creatures within 1 mile of yourself. You are unable to determine their type, size, power or any other details, only their location and that they are alive. This can only be used once per short rest. In addition, you can sense any ignited flames within 1 mile of yourself, and choose to either snuff them out or make them grow in intensity without needing to have line of sight on them.

Earth
Eternal Mountain Defense - You can spend 3 ki points to cast Stoneskin, targeting yourself.
Shape of Battle - You can spend 3 ki points to cast Wall of Stone, without needing existing stone beneath it. It also does not require concentration, becoming permanent immediately.

Water
Shape of the Flowing River - You can spend 3 ki points to cast Control Water.
Ice Prison - As an action you can spend 3 ki points to wrap an enemy within 30' in frozen ice, covering them entirely. They must immediately make a strength saving throw to break free. On a failed save, they are deafened, blinded and restrained, and take 6d10 Cold damage. On a successful save, take half damage and escape the prison. This effect requires Concentration to maintain, and ends immediately if disrupted. The target can make a new saving throw at the end of each of their turns to escape.

17th Level
Air
Take their Breath Away - As an action you can spend 4 ki points to suffocate an enemy within 30'. They are unable to hold their breath and immediately begin choking per the Suffocation rules. This effect requires Concentration to maintain, and ends immediately if disrupted.
Meditative Flow - When you hit with your Elemental Assault you can expand your understanding of the wind to your allies. Designate 5 friendly creatures and give them Advantage on all attacks on their next turn. This can only be used once per short rest.

Fire
Ride the Lightning - You can spend 4 ki points to cast Chain Lightning. In addition when you do so you can choose to become one with the lightning and disappear from your current position, reappearing to any enemy of your choice that was hit. If you do so, you can use your Bonus Action to attack with Elemental Assault. You may choose to have this spell deal fire damage instead of lightning.
Piercing Flame - Any fire damage you deal bypasses Resistance/Immunity. In addition, any of your fire damage also imparts the Burned condition, dealing an additional 1d10 damage at the start of the victim's next turns for two turns.

Earth
Magma Rager - As an action, you can spend 4 ki points to ignite the fury of the earth. You summon four Magma Elementals (no statblock yet, but assume equal in power to an Earth Elemental with some added fire tricks). These operate under the same rules as the Conjure Elemental spell, except that when Concentration is broken the Elementals vanish instead of turning hostile.
Immovable Mountain - As a reaction you can temporarily reduce your movement speed to 0 for your next turn. When you do so you become resistant to all damage, immune to piercing/slashing/bludgeoning damage (including magical), and your AC is increased by 5. You also cannot be moved or knocked prone by any means, including magical. This can only be used once per long rest. You are still able to change stances with this movement speed reduction on your next turn.

Water
Puppet of Water - You can spend 4 ki to harness the water inside another creature's body. On a failed strength save the target's actions become subject entirely to your will, becoming unable to act outside of your direction. You can use your bonus action on each turn to determine what they will do, which they will then carry out on their turn with full control over their attacks and spells. You do need to know what their abilities are in order to use them however. If you choose not to command them, they simply take no action on their turn. At the end of each of their turns, the target can make a new saving throw to escape. On a successful save the target takes 8d8 cold damage and the effect ends. Under the light of a full moon, the target automatically fails their saves. This effect requires Concentration to maintain, and ends immediately if disrupted.
Octopus Form - You can spend 4 ki points as an action to create a ring of water with a 15' radius around you, which cannot be moved once generated. While in this circle, ranged attacks have disadvantage against you and any allies you choose. You also gain +5 AC. In order to enter the ring an enemy must make a dexterity saving throw. On a success they enter, on a failed throw they take 2d8 cold/bludgeoning damage and are pushed back 15'. As an action you can attack all creatures who are within 10' of the outside of the ring, or anywhere inside it, provoking dexterity saves. On a failed save they take 4d8 cold/bludgeoning damage and are pushed 15' outside of the ring. On a successful save, they take half damage and are not moved.

Gonna admit I got tired halfway through writing the disciplines out so they're not entirely done. Ideally there'd be 3-4 of each element per level instead of the 2 per element per level. It's a decent enough baseline though. Again, the wording on abilities doesn't need to be exact yet, just trying to get across intention.

I tried to keep ki costs consistent. I also tried to make sure that some of the big ones (bloodbending, magma, lightning, zaheer's breath stealing) were represented.

Phew, that took a while to write up. I might even put it in a proper homebrewery thing and refine the language.

HPisBS

2020-08-29, 10:34 AM

~snip~

I like it in principle. It certainly delivers our flavor+power in a simpler way than the mix-and-match assortment of abilities I wrote up lol.

That said, it still has its issues. For example, free healing with every attack / discipline use is way OP. At most, that should be thp. Even then, though, it doesn't feel like the right flavor. You're clearly shooting for AtLA here, and while Katara does heal with waterbending, it's not while attacking. Adding Cure Wounds and Lesser Restoration to the water disciplines should suffice for that aspect. A better fit for this water stance is probably adding reach, and/or maybe advantage on grappling.

Speaking of flavor, this write-up is strictly Avatar; it would actively go against building any other kind of bender or elementalist. IMO, a completely successful fix would need to provide equal incentives to use all 4 elements, and to focus on fewer.

Which brings us to Elemental Mastery. Compare that to Drunken Master's < 3 extra flurry attacks, Kensei's re-rolling 1 miss, or even Open Hand's hurt-or-die features. Even just one free, massive, high-level AoE spell per day seems to be on a whole different level than any RAW Monk subclass's capstone.

Overall, I like the ideas behind it, though I'd like to see some built-in support for mono-elementalists. The stances are mostly balanced and flavorful, though Elemental Assault is probably OP - at least for level 3. (Remember, RAW Fangs of the Fire Snake costs 1 ki just to replace your normal attacks with reach fire attacks. This would do most of that and more for free.)

I think it has potential. Although, predictably, I like also having the kinds of free out-of-combat abilities I wrote up even more. Speaking of which, I should probably edit in a clause about how those water tendrils can also be used to manipulate objects or something.

Zevox

2020-08-29, 11:24 AM

Now that it's the weekend (woo) let's type up my spitballed ideas. Precise wording and numbers aren't really important here, it's the ideas trying to be conveyed.
I like where you're going with a lot of that, although it feels like it gets over-complicated as you go up the levels. Flowing Momentum in particular seems like a real pain in the ass - you need to keep track of which stances you've been in for the last three turns, and how high your current damage bonus is, and be constantly juggling switching to a new stance to keep the bonus going up, or remember to reduce it if you don't switch stances or re-use one - all for a +1 to +4 bonus? That seems like the type of thing that 5E has deliberately avoided doing, for good reason IMO.

And like HPisBS I'm inclined to think the water stance is overpowered providing free healing like that, and that the level 17 ability is far too much. I also think that it might get too many of the "discipline" abilities, picking up 12 total by level 11 like that and 16 by the end (and some additional homebrew disciplines would probably be necessary, given how relatively few there are in the existing 4E Monk).

Very much like Elemental Assault though, I think that's perfect for what the subclass needs to actually work as a D&D Bender class. It's totally fine that it's better than Flames of the Fire Snake - I'd argue that so is Radiant Sun Bolt to begin with, after all, and it's not that powerful. Like many 4E Monk abilities, Flames of the Fire Snake is just not that good anyway.

I'd probably nix that level 11 ability entirely and just focus on the Disciplines in the mid-levels, until they get something unique at the capstone.

Amnestic

2020-08-29, 11:26 AM

I like it in principle. It certainly delivers our flavor+power in a simpler way than the mix-and-match assortment of abilities I wrote up lol.

That said, it still has its issues. For example, free healing with every attack / discipline use is way OP. At most, that should be thp. Even then, though, it doesn't feel like the right flavor. You're clearly shooting for AtLA here, and while Katara does heal with waterbending, it's not while attacking. Adding Cure Wounds and Lesser Restoration to the water disciplines should suffice for that aspect. A better fit for this water stance is probably adding reach, and/or maybe advantage on grappling.

I'm definitely leaning into the water=healing stuff. If power is an issue you could cap it at once per turn (perhaps increasing to 2/turn at 11th or something like that) or temp HP or both. That's probably a reasonable restriction to throw on there.

Speaking of flavor, this write-up is strictly Avatar; it would actively go against building any other kind of bender or elementalist. IMO, a completely successful fix would need to provide equal incentives to use all 4 elements, and to focus on fewer.

I'd rather see a mono-element focus be its own subclass personally, but it's a preference thing so no judgement there.

Which brings us to Elemental Mastery. Compare that to Drunken Master's < 3 extra flurry attacks, Kensei's re-rolling 1 miss, or even Open Hand's hurt-or-die features. Even just one free, massive, high-level AoE spell per day seems to be on a whole different level than any RAW Monk subclass's capstone.

Oh yeah for sure. It's super overpowered compared to those. Those capstones aren't interesting or cool though, and capstones should be, in my opinion.

If you wanted to pull it back down, scrapping the spell casting part of the capstone would probably do its job - gives you temporary fast flight, all the stance boosts, freedom for whichever disciplines you wanted to cast and a damage boost. I did want to properly simulate the sheer nation warping power that an Avatar can wield though, which at 17th level is not unreasonable.

Overall, I like the ideas behind it, though I'd like to see some built-in support for mono-elementalists. The stances are mostly balanced and flavorful, though Elemental Assault is probably OP - at least for level 3. (Remember, RAW Fangs of the Fire Snake costs 1 ki just to replace your normal attacks with reach fire attacks. This would do most of that and more for free.)

It does...but Fangs of the Fire Snike baseline is also bad, overcosted (it should be free - RAW ki cost for 4ele abilities is one of the main issues with the subclass), and unlikely to see any real use especially after level 5 when stunning strike takes priority for the ki pool. I'll admit I didn't look at it as balanced vs. other monk subclasses, but rather vs. classes as a whole. I didn't bother doing the maths but I expect it ends up being not dissimilar in power to warlock blasting over the full length of time, with spikes on one side or another at certain levels.

Appreciate the feedback!

I like where you're going with a lot of that, although it feels like it gets over-complicated as you go up the levels. Flowing Momentum in particular seems like a real pain in the ass - you need to keep track of which stances you've been in for the last three turns, and how high your current damage bonus is, and be constantly juggling switching to a new stance to keep the bonus going up, or remember to reduce it if you don't switch stances or re-use one - all for a +1 to +4 bonus? That seems like the type of thing that 5E has deliberately avoided doing, for good reason IMO.

Definitely a fair point. I do/did want to incentivise stance switching as a regular thing turn-to-turn. Might take it back to the drawing board. New consideration: "At 11th level you retain the effect of a stance for one extra turn", perhaps. Cuts down on the clumsiness, nixes the tracking of bonuses entirely, and instead just frees up more flexibility each turn.

HPisBS

2020-08-29, 11:35 AM

...
Very much like Elemental Assault though, I think that's perfect for what the subclass needs to actually work as a D&D Bender class. It's totally fine that it's better than Flames of the Fire Snake - I'd argue that so is Radiant Sun Bolt to begin with, after all, and it's not that powerful. Like many 4E Monk abilities, Flames of the Fire Snake is just not that good anyway....

Almost, but not quite.

Unlike the Sun Bolts, Fire Snake lets you stun while dealing elemental damage with reach. That's why RAW makes it cost 1 ki to activate (and why my water tendril doesn't add any extra damage or riders, yet still requires two water disciplines).

That said, Fire Snake is still clearly too expensive for what it does, which is why I proposed to enhance it the way I did.

Fangs of the Fire Snake - Enhancement -- Same as RAW, +

Alternatively, you may activate this discipline without spending any ki points as a bonus action. When you use it in this way, the discipline ends at the end of your turn, unless you use your concentration to maintain it as if concentrating on a spell.

Zevox

2020-08-29, 11:57 AM

Almost, but not quite.

Unlike the Sun Bolts, Fire Snake lets you stun while dealing elemental damage with reach.
And Elemental Assault as Amnestic wrote it doesn't, since it doesn't give you reach, just the option to use it as a ranged attack. Stunning Strike is still limited to being used in melee range, which remains the 5' default with that ability. So, what's the issue?

HPisBS

2020-08-29, 12:38 PM

Zevox

2020-08-29, 01:45 PM

I think I was responding more to the comparison with Sun Bolts. Though, upon further reflection, I realize that the only real difference is it provides at-will elemental ranged and melee damage - which isn't actually such a big deal. Having at-will access to thunder, fire, and cold damage all at once is probably a bigger deal than that.
Perhaps, but Sun Bolts is radiant damage, which is far less commonly resisted than any of the elements proposed for this - second only to Force for least resisted element, IIRC. And really, it's not like things being weak to these elements is at all common, so the only advantage is mainly in avoiding resistance, which you can do just by having earth counting as magical bludgeoning damage.

The four damage types here is really mostly for flavor, when you get down to it that way.

HPisBS

2020-09-01, 01:56 AM

1) You only get to pick a tiny number of powers.
2) You have a tiny list to pick from.
3) The Powers aren't very good.
4) They don't synergise at all with the rest of what your class does.
5) They use a resource which your other class abilities also use.
6) They use too much of this resource.

The basic fixes proposed thus far were:

Add minor buffs to core features, plus new powers – both with and without a ki cost – according to which elemental disciplines (EDs) you know, as detailed in post 2. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?618064-Let-s-Fix-The-4-Elements-Monk&p=24684610#post24684610)
Add more ED options. And, enhance Fangs of the Fire Snake such that you can activate it with a bonus action, then maintain it with concentration, to make activating it cost no ki. Also found ^
Reduce tier 1 & 2 discipline ki costs
Allow Martial Arts / FoB after using an ED
Make it a 1/3 caster instead
Elemental "Stances"
Extra EDs known at each tier

Whether making it a 1/3 caster would actually be an improvement or not is debatable (that debate was held in a different EleMonk thread a while back), but any of the others could definitely serve as welcome improvements to the subclass.

So which seem to be the most interesting, yet balanced? And how well do you think each would actually fix the cited complaints?

Any other ideas that haven't already been detailed?

Kane0

2020-09-01, 04:00 AM

The basic fixes proposed thus far were:

Add minor buffs to core features, plus new powers -- both with and without a ki cost according to which elemental disciplines (EDs) you know.
Concentrate on Fangs of the Fire Snake after activating it with a bonus action to make activating it cost no ki. And add more ED options.
Reduce tier 1 & 2 discipline ki costs
Allow Martial Arts / FoB after using an ED
Make it a 1/3 caster instead
Elemental "Stances"
Extra EDs known at each tier

My vote goes to points one, three and four.

Stances are a potential ki-less option to run with, as are other passive abilities.
Synergising disciplines with regular monk activities is a must.
Adding more disciplines is another option, though if two were granted per breakpoint i would prefer them split between proper disciplines and ribbon-tier ones.

Fnissalot

2020-09-01, 05:57 AM

I plan to use the following changes in the next campaign trying to minimize how much is actually changed.

Add to the base class "If you spend 1 ki or more as part of your action on your turn, you can then immediately make one unarmed strike as a bonus action."

Add the 4 elemental cantrips to always be known and double the amount of EDs known.

Replace the third paragraph of Disciple of the Elements with: At the end of a long rest, you can also replace one elemental discipline that you already know with a different discipline.

Replace the second and third paragraph of casting elemental spells with: Spells are cast with a spell slot of level equal to a fifth of your monk levels rounded up or the spells level, whichever is higher.

Edea

2020-09-01, 10:17 AM

...I'll be honest, I find myself in agreement with Christew. These sound like Mystic disciplines; maybe just port Order of the Wu Jen over? Psionic monk's been a thing since 4e...

HPisBS

2020-09-01, 11:16 AM

...
Replace the second and third paragraph of casting elemental spells with: Spells are cast with a spell slot of level equal to a fifth of your monk levels rounded up or the spells level, whichever is higher.

There must be a typo, 'cuz that would make every spell require a 1/3 caster's highest level spell slot. Sometimes even higher. lol

Amnestic

2020-09-01, 11:22 AM

There must be a typo, 'cuz that would make every spell require a 1/3 caster's highest level spell slot. Sometimes even higher. lol

I was reading it as spells are automatically upcast at no extra ki cost - for the baseline monk, not the 1/3 caster rewrite/revamp/revisited/resurrected/reborn version provided earlier.

Eg. Burning Hands (via sweeping cinder strike) would be automatically upcast to a 4th level spell when used by a 20th level monk, while still costing 2 ki only.

Fnissalot

2020-09-01, 02:50 PM

I was reading it as spells are automatically upcast at no extra ki cost - for the baseline monk, not the 1/3 caster rewrite/revamp/revisited/resurrected/reborn version provided earlier.

Eg. Burning Hands (via sweeping cinder strike) would be automatically upcast to a 4th level spell when used by a 20th level monk, while still costing 2 ki only.

Yes exactly, automatic upcast for the normal subclass. It has nothing to do with the other rewrite.

eunwoler

2020-09-02, 01:44 AM

Here's my big design issue with 4E that has already been explained - it burns the resource of existing features.

The issue is if 4E's ki features are straight up better than its base skills there's no reason to use existing features so those become wasted design space. The monk kind of sucks unless the 4E add ons are strong enough to compensate for the lack of base class features.

If they are equally good, the class is essentially no better than a monk that has no 4E subclass.

I agree with the posts where in tandem with 4E features you can use existing ki abilities like Flurry of Blows for little or no additional cost. Furthermore, there should be features that aren't just choosing more active abilities. The subclass needs more passive abilities as passives do not have the aforementioned issue.

eunwoler

2020-09-02, 01:46 AM

Zevox

2020-09-02, 05:26 PM

One other gripe I have that I am surprised noone else seems to is that the Monk just has refluffed spells to work with. I would much prefer if the monk's abilities were differentiated from spells in some way, I don't like that its doing the same thing with a different casting system. Surely the way the monk controls the elements is more fluid and less restrictive than the boxes in which the spells come
That is something that I very much agree with, personally. Outside of the matter of all of their abilities requiring ki, I have always been disappointed that so many 4 Elements disciplines just duplicate a spell. The ones that don't, like Fist of Unbroken Air, Water Whip, and Shape the Flowing River are my personal favorites and what give me reason to want to play the class. And to be fair, I can see using spells as a basis for some things - Burning Hands being used as the model for a basic firebending blast, or Stoneskin for an earth-armor type of move, yeah, that makes sense to me.

But then you get to ones like "Clench of the North Wind: cast Hold Person" or "Gong of the Summit: cast Shatter," and it just looks like they got lazy and threw some spells onto the list that they could vaguely justify because they were out of good ideas. And even for some of the others where the spell choices do make sense, it would be far more interesting not to model the spell, but to give them a more unique version of it. Sure, Wall of Stone makes sense as basically a high-level earthbending technique, but why not allow such a high-level 4 Elements Monk greater control over it than the spell does, letting them reshape it after its initial creation, allowing fine control so that they can open holes in it for allies to move through and then close them to prevent enemy access, or even allow them to add a ceiling to it so that it can be a dome-shaped or rectangular construct. It's a level 17+ ability, it basically represents mastery of that element; give them more than just a relatively boring, straightforward spell that any 9th-level Wizard can have.

Asisreo1

2020-09-02, 06:04 PM

Edea

2020-09-02, 07:40 PM

I haven't looked at most of the replies yet, but I want to ask this question: what is the purpose of this fixed class?

Not by how is it supposed to look, more about how it's supposed to play. Do you want the 4-elemonk to be a spellcaster? If so, what type? AoE focused? Single-target damage? Controller?

How do you want it to interact with the world? In what ways do you want it to be engaged?

I think the purpose of the class is to allow players to create expies from Avatar: The Last Airbender.

Not even trying to say that facetiously, and it's an admirable design goal but it's one that's very difficult to balance around a short/short/long rest resource management system, because a lot of what AtLA characters do is both at-will and extremely specific.

Like, let's say you want to play Toph. Well, Toph does the craziest **** imaginable with her earthbending, and she does it 24/7; Toph would break 5e into little pieces if you just injected her wholesale into the game.

So...I feel like we're going in circles over how much of that power's allowable from the perspective of a 5e paradigm, along with how to best present that allowance without the whole project becoming mechanically 'overwrought' and over-complicated (see: the Mystic, even though I just mentioned it a few posts ago).

Asisreo1

2020-09-02, 08:16 PM

I think the purpose of the class is to allow players to create expies from Avatar: The Last Airbender.

Not even trying to say that facetiously, and it's an admirable design goal but it's one that's very difficult to balance around a short/short/long rest resource management system, because a lot of what AtLA characters do is both at-will and extremely specific.

Like, let's say you want to play Toph. Well, Toph does the craziest **** imaginable with her earthbending, and she does it 24/7; Toph would break 5e into little pieces if you just injected her wholesale into the game.

So...I feel like we're going in circles over how much of that power's allowable from the perspective of a 5e paradigm, along with how to best present that allowance without the whole project becoming mechanically 'overwrought' and over-complicated (see: the Mystic, even though I just mentioned it a few posts ago).
Now, I do contest that the class is meant to encapsulate the specific feel of a specific show just because it's recognizable.

It might even be a bit culturally insensitive how people hear an elemental monk and only thinks of ATLA. As great as the show is, the disciplined fighting styles being turned into elemental powers is not something they invented or patented. It would be like saying Open Hand Monk is meant to specifically be to imitate Fist of the North Star or saying that an assassin rogue is meant to imitate batman.

It's not like WOTC can just copy-paste a blatant imitation of a nickelodeon owned show without paying for the rights. Even if it's meant to be the game-adaptation.

Plus, I still hold my position that a player wanting to play an ATLA character is 100x better served playing a Druid.

Lord Raziere

2020-09-02, 08:25 PM

Zevox

2020-09-02, 09:11 PM

I think the purpose of the class is to allow players to create expies from Avatar: The Last Airbender.

Not even trying to say that facetiously, and it's an admirable design goal but it's one that's very difficult to balance around a short/short/long rest resource management system, because a lot of what AtLA characters do is both at-will and extremely specific.

Like, let's say you want to play Toph. Well, Toph does the craziest **** imaginable with her earthbending, and she does it 24/7; Toph would break 5e into little pieces if you just injected her wholesale into the game.

So...I feel like we're going in circles over how much of that power's allowable from the perspective of a 5e paradigm, along with how to best present that allowance without the whole project becoming mechanically 'overwrought' and over-complicated (see: the Mystic, even though I just mentioned it a few posts ago).
Speaking as someone who does want the subclass to be as inspired by Avatar as possible, I don't think that's true. I know full well you can't just give the class a ton of at-will abilities that rival or exceed those that other classes get limited amounts of. That's why when I suggested something to allow the class to always be using the elements in combat, it was based on the Radiant Sun Bolts feature from the Sun Soul Monk and basically just let you do martial arts but with elemental damage as a ranged attack.

Obviously you need to limit their uses of more powerful abilities because that's how the game is balanced. That's fine, and I'm certainly not asking for that to change, nor I think is anyone else who looks to Avatar's benders as the archetype that they want the Four Elements monk to fill.

Christew

2020-09-02, 09:34 PM

The Giant Soul Sorcerer is another place that can be mined for elemental non-spell abilities.

Amnestic

2020-09-03, 04:29 AM

....I mean there are already many 4 element monk fixes out there....and other things to do the same basic concept in 5e....on /r unearthed arcana and DMs Guild.....have you guys even considered looking at or trying those? what you want might already exist, and if so, why reinvent the wheel?

unless your just having this discussion for the sake of fun theorizing and such, which is fine, but I think there is merit to seeing whats already out there but not looked at much and giving it a try rather than try to making yet another competing standard ala xkcd.

Can't speak for anyone else but yes, I've looked at some of the other fixes/revamps/etc. floating around like this one that makes it a 1/3rd caster (https://sterlingvermin.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/way-of-the-four-elements-revisited.pdf) and this one that doesn't (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwNDM2My1XeWFYSDA/view).

Neither really did it for me personally.

I think the purpose of the class is to allow players to create expies from Avatar: The Last Airbender.

Not even trying to say that facetiously, and it's an admirable design goal but it's one that's very difficult to balance around a short/short/long rest resource management system, because a lot of what AtLA characters do is both at-will and extremely specific.

Like, let's say you want to play Toph. Well, Toph does the craziest **** imaginable with her earthbending, and she does it 24/7; Toph would break 5e into little pieces if you just injected her wholesale into the game.

So...I feel like we're going in circles over how much of that power's allowable from the perspective of a 5e paradigm, along with how to best present that allowance without the whole project becoming mechanically 'overwrought' and over-complicated (see: the Mystic, even though I just mentioned it a few posts ago).

We do see that large exertions are still taxing on the benders in the show - Toph struggles with holding up the library for instance (which, not surprising). Trying to inject her direct power level into 5e would be broken for sure but benders in the show aren't unlimited power sources no matter how buff they get.

HPisBS

2020-09-05, 10:52 AM

...
Plus, I still hold my position that a player wanting to play an ATLA character is 100x better served playing a Druid.

Yeah, no. Druids aren't martial artists. Benders don't have Wild Shape, nor Goodberries, nor most of anything else that Druids get.

What a Bender is, is a martial artist (Bagua for Airbending, Tai Chi for Waterbending, Hung Gar for Earthbending, Northern Shaolin Style of kung fu for Firebending) who can create elemental effects through said martial arts.

The Giant Soul Sorcerer is another place that can be mined for elemental non-spell abilities.

What did you have in mind? Skimming over it, nothing there really jumps out. What stuff does kind of jump out (to me) is fairly similar to the homebrewed features in post 2. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?618064-Let-s-Fix-The-4-Elements-Monk&p=24684610#post24684610)

Asisreo1

2020-09-05, 11:05 AM

Yeah, no. Druids aren't martial artists. Benders don't have Wild Shape, nor Goodberries, nor most of anything else that Druids get.

What a Bender is, is a martial artist (Bagua for Airbending, Tai Chi for Waterbending, Hung Gar for Earthbending, Northern Shaolin Style of kung fu for Firebending) who can create elemental effects through said martial arts.

You can easily flavor your somatic materials as whatever ATLA does. It's not like they actually use their martial arts for anything but dodging and blocking in the show. Every other movement is a mode to get their bending through.

ATLA takes inspiration from many different eastern sources and mixes them in ways that give a new context. Benders are also spiritual and the avatar always has a spirit animal with them. The waterbenders can heal and control people. The firebenders have access to lightning and doesn't need their element with them to use them. Earthbenders have soil, rock, sand, and metal. Airbenders can effectively fly. These are all moves that a druid is able to use and extremely similar to one.

In fact, the entirety of the monk chassis will fail to emulate a bender. Benders don't often use weapons, their elements are usually their weapons. Benders don't engage in melee often either, they prefer to keep their distance. They aren't particularly more dexterous, I'd say Toph is stronger than acrobatic as well as the fire lord. The only character in the show that can stun is Tai Lee, a nonbender.

Like many have said, if you want a bender, they have to have access to alot of at-will or near at-will abilities to fit the type. Benders won't want to be in melee, either, which goes against the majority of monks.

Quietus

2020-09-05, 11:11 AM

Yeah, no. Druids aren't martial artists. Benders don't have Wild Shape, nor Goodberries, nor most of anything else that Druids get.

What a Bender is, is a martial artist (Bagua for Airbending, Tai Chi for Waterbending, Hung Gar for Earthbending, Northern Shaolin Style of kung fu for Firebending) who can create elemental effects through said martial arts.

Refluffing things is absolutely viable, though. How often do we see benders using their bending to armor themselves? Katara and Toph in particular do it on a regular basis; who's to say that Katara sheathing her arms in water, or surrounding herself with whips of water, couldn't be represented just as well with Wild Shape into an octopus form? Toph surrounds herself with armor of stone, that could just as easily be fluffed as turning herself into a giant ape, and the amount of HP that ape has is just how much stone is left in her armor.

As far as goodberries, if your particular image of bending for your character doesn't involve healing, then don't do that. Again, we look at Katara; she does have healing power, and it works fairly slowly. Goodberries can just be her spending an action to heal 1 HP per action.

Sure, it's a stretch. And I'd love to see Monks be able to do this without having to completely rewrite the fluff of a caster class to do what they were clearly trying to emulate in the first place with 4 Elements monk. But I could absolutely see someone playing a druid with a highly specific spell selection and calling themselves a bender. One of the thoughts I had for fixing 4 Elements myself was to do a 1/3 caster thing, and give them druid casting, then build in other subclass abilities that allow the mixing of martial arts and spellcasting.

Tanarii

2020-09-05, 12:30 PM

Asisreo1

2020-09-05, 12:44 PM

4e monks are 1/3 casters if they use half their Ki on elemental effects, and 2/3 casters if they use it all.

One thing you can't do is reduce the Ki cost of the effects or give them more Ki. If you do that, you'll break it one way or another.
Elemonks are half-casters with the SR mechanic. It's pretty unique and probably the biggest reason people have a hard time wrapping their heads around it. They essentially sacrifice spells known for more castable spells than any third caster comparatively.

Christew

2020-09-05, 01:42 PM

What did you have in mind? Skimming over it, nothing there really jumps out. What stuff does kind of jump out (to me) is fairly similar to the homebrewed features in post 2. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?618064-Let-s-Fix-The-4-Elements-Monk&p=24684610#post24684610)
Now that I look back, I was referring to Rune Knight, not Giant Soul (though both could work). Ild specifically came to mind. Also UA just being ostensibly closer to WotC vision of balance than homebrew makes it a safer baseline IMHO.

HPisBS

2020-09-05, 02:04 PM

@Quietus, "A stretch" may be putting it mildly lol

... In fact, the entirety of the monk chassis will fail to emulate a bender.

The entirety of the Monk chassis fails to emulate a martial artist, too - much to my chagrin. (Battlemaster maneuvers does it better.) That doesn't change the fact that a martial artist is exactly what the Monk is supposed to be.

The same way that the EleMonk is supposed to be an elemental martial artist - like Aang or Zuko, for example.

Now I'm getting flashbacks to that other thread from back in May. Turns out we've started repeating the same sentiments all over again, so lets just link to that -

The dude [Zuko] literally used a spinning kick to get up from prone while also knocking his opponent prone in the same move.

Which goes back to, yeah. You can probably model every bending use with some spell. But by doing so you’re missing the feeling of Avatar. They aren’t just casting spells. They are throwing punches and kicks and the elements come out as extensions of those moves.

It would be something truly special if 5e could figure out a way to get that feeling tied to the mechanics. But they didn’t. They found a way to make the effect without the flavor. Which honestly what I feel is wrong with pretty much how most of how 5e feels.

- so the whole back-and-forth can be read over there. And so that we can get back to discussing how to fix the EleMonk.

1) You only get to pick a tiny number of powers.
2) You have a tiny list to pick from.
3) The Powers aren't very good.
4) They don't synergise at all with the rest of what your class does.
5) They use a resource which your other class abilities also use.
6) They use too much of this resource.

Now that I look back, I was referring to Rune Knight, not Giant Soul (though both could work). Ild specifically came to mind. Also UA just being ostensibly closer to WotC vision of balance than homebrew makes it a safer baseline IMHO.

*Looks at Tranquility and Astral Self Monks*

Really, now? lol

No, but for real, though -- which parts of post # 2 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?618064-Let-s-Fix-The-4-Elements-Monk&p=24684610#post24684610) seemed imbalanced to you?

Cybren

2020-09-05, 02:22 PM

4e monks are 1/3 casters if they use half their Ki on elemental effects, and 2/3 casters if they use it all.

One thing you can't do is reduce the Ki cost of the effects or give them more Ki. If you do that, you'll break it one way or another.
They could probably use more abilities that don't cost ki though.

To be honest it feels like they weren't sure how 'big' a subclass was supposed to be. A few seem to be designed as "here's four extra class features you get for your subclass, one of them probably isn't directly combat related". and others are "here are these huge mechanical conceits that make the class function differently". Even though 4E monks have a lot of options to choose from, they also sort of feel like a paint by numbers version of the "four extra class features" version in practice.

Dienekes

2020-09-05, 02:30 PM

4e monks are 1/3 casters if they use half their Ki on elemental effects, and 2/3 casters if they use it all.

One thing you can't do is reduce the Ki cost of the effects or give them more Ki. If you do that, you'll break it one way or another.

Kinda think that’s the issue. Every other subclass is “here’s some cool stuff to do in addition to what you do in your base class!”

The Fighter? It’s magic subclass didn’t get the effects of the spells if it took half as many Second Winds or Action Surges. No. It had all that and then was a 1/3 caster on top of it. The Rogue? It didn’t give up on... actually Rogue doesn’t have any resources to spend. But it didn’t give up anything to also become a 1/3 caster.

But the Monk? To get the 1/3 casting you have to use your other abilities half as often.

Which is why, if we’re doing the straight “add spells to the Monk” type of Elemonk I think we already got that done back in page 1. Take monk. Add 1/3 casting to it. Make a handful of abilities about using their monk skills in conjunction with the spells like a EK can. And call it a day.

We already got that. So we moved on to the more interesting and more difficult view of making Elemental based martial arts styles. Which is more fun. But also a lot harder and will take time.

Tanarii

2020-09-05, 02:38 PM

They could probably use more abilities that don't cost ki though.

To be honest it feels like they weren't sure how 'big' a subclass was supposed to be. A few seem to be designed as "here's four extra class features you get for your subclass, one of them probably isn't directly combat related". and others are "here are these huge mechanical conceits that make the class function differently". Even though 4E monks have a lot of options to choose from, they also sort of feel like a paint by numbers version of the "four extra class features" version in practice.Yes definitely. The Elemental cantrips would have been a good place to start, but they came out after the PHB.

And agreed that's very likely why the 4e subclass is the way it is. A 1/3 caster tacked on to the Monk Class would probably be too powerful compared to the other subclasses. It also wouldn't give them the option to be a 2/3 caster, albeit at the cost of many of their class features.

If it wasn't for 1/3 caster possibly being OP, it'd certainly be a way to address those who don't ever want to be more than a 1/3 caster in a day, and want to have all their Ki for monk features.

1/3 casters are also the most powerful Fighter and Rogue subclasses to date IMO. But in the case of a monk it'd far outstrip the other subclasses, so we end up with something that emulates a 1/3 caster but is far more inline with the other subclasses.

Christew

2020-09-05, 02:47 PM

*Looks at Tranquility and Astral Self Monks*

Really, now? lol

No, but for real, though -- which parts of post # 2 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?618064-Let-s-Fix-The-4-Elements-Monk&p=24684610#post24684610) seemed imbalanced to you?
I very deliberately used "ostensibly" there. There are always going to be outliers (though personally I don't think Astral is as broken as some claim).

It's not that any of the suggestions seem imbalanced per se, it's that experience in other "fix X" threads has given me the impression that there is a cabal of folks who appreciate a clear line to the devs (even if only as inspiration) over outright homebrew. Someone asked about non-spell elemental abilities and I was pointing out the giant subclasses (both of which are probably going to see publication in as form come November).

Dienekes

2020-09-05, 02:48 PM

Yes definitely. The Elemental cantrips would have been a good place to start, but they came out after the PHB.

And agreed that's very likely why the 4e subclass is the way it is. A 1/3 caster tacked on to the Monk Class would probably be too powerful compared to the other subclasses. It also wouldn't give them the option to be a 2/3 caster, albeit at the cost of many of their class features.

If it wasn't for 1/3 caster possibly being OP, it'd certainly be a way to address those who don't ever want to be more than a 1/3 caster in a day, and want to have all their Ki for monk features.

1/3 casters are also the most powerful Fighter and Rogue subclasses to date IMO. But in the case of a monk it'd far outstrip the other subclasses, so we end up with something that emulates a 1/3 caster but is far more inline with the other subclasses.

Doesn’t this all just mean the Monk is poorly designed/weak? Because honestly, just looking at the base class and ignoring subclasses, I don’t think Monk is better than Fighter. But Fighter can get 1/3 casting and the Monk can’t, because the other Monk subclasses are just too weak? So, we should probably look at buffing all those non-magic subclasses to the par of the magic subclasses.

Admittedly I think WotC are kinda crap at balancing martial and magic anyway. But hey, we’re nerds talking about homebrew on a D&D forum. If there’s anywhere to talk about this sort of thing, it’s here.

sambojin

2020-09-05, 06:45 PM

To make it really easy, try giving the 4E monk a free Magical Initiate feat at lvl3, that always keys off Dex or Wis (your choice), and +wis-mod Ki per short rest at lvl3 as well.

It's pretty much the flexibility they want and need. It's also not too much extra Ki (only being +2-+5 ki/sr on top the standard monk ki-at-this-level table), but it lets them do some cool basic monk stuff, while also doing a bit of awesome 4E stuff too. It's a nice early boost, but it doesn't get too silly-powerful later-on either. You actually do need to ASI into stats for heaps of extra Ki, so there is a slight trade-off.

The free MI feat lets you theme yourself wonderfully, but also doesn't restrict you to only being elemental. You could go Druid for Guidance/ Druidcraft/ Goodberry if you wanted for a more healy-natural-mystic vibe, or Wizard with Firebolt/ Frostbite/ Ice Knife for a fire+ice theme (along with 4E power choices to match). Think vaguely elementally minor illusions, telekinesis with mage hand, and turbo-boost expeditious retreat is how your temple combines the elements? Or mad punchy hexes, eldritch ki-blasts, and the odd created bonfire is the way your mob does it? Go for it! The world is the mollusc of your choice with Magical Initiate, especially when it keys off Dex or Wis regardless of what class you pick for MI cantrips and a single spell. You can always have a ranged option if you want, but you can go for utility, or for something like booming blade for low-level melee control, and a 1 per long rest lvl1 spell is never overpowered, no matter what it is (even if that spell is Find Familiar, it's 1/day, and is very easy to kill).

Anyway, it works, it's really damn easy, and so yeah. That fixes 4E monks. It's two simple add-ons, but it brings the subclass in line with many others, doesn't restrict player choice or backstory, and is really easy to use. Not super powerful, but is super fun, and doesn't feel like it lacks power either. +2 cantrips, +1/day lvl1 spell, +wis-mod Ki/sr. Done! Fixed!

(they go from being the worst monk subclass to being one of the best early on. But they're not as "basically powerful" as a lvl2 moon, a lvl2-5 fighter, a lvl4-6 pally, or any lvl3+ full caster. But they're certainly very playable with these two additions, even if you have a weird amount of short/long rests per day, or just the standard amount, in the campaign you're playing in)

((it's actually not a bad idea to give *all* monks, of any subclass, +wis-mod Ki per short rest at lvl3, because it fixes the entire class, but since this thread is just for the subclass of 4E monks, it still works just as well. You're still MAD as hell, but you can't wait to take more of it. Monk levels, that is))

(((if you're really worried about stat minmaxing, do it as +proficiency-bonus Ki per short rest. Not such a bad thing, because they only get it at level 3, whether you give it to all Monks or just 4E ones. It scales about the same at early levels, isn't easily dippable for (3 full caster or proper martial levels is almost always better in every way), but in case someone thinks that a potential +3 Ki per short rest at character creation is OP... It doesn't happen until level 3, it's not. If anything, +wis-mod is anti-dip compared to +proficiency Ki. It just lets monks, Monk Hard)))

HPisBS

2020-09-07, 02:23 PM

I very deliberately used "ostensibly" there. There are always going to be outliers (though personally I don't think Astral is as broken as some claim).

It's not that any of the suggestions seem imbalanced per se, it's that experience in other "fix X" threads has given me the impression that there is a cabal of folks who appreciate a clear line to the devs (even if only as inspiration) over outright homebrew. Someone asked about non-spell elemental abilities and I was pointing out the giant subclasses (both of which are probably going to see publication in as form come November).

What do you mean "a clear line to the devs?" Do we expect devs to read any of these threads? Idk about anyone else, but my interest is in finding a way to make the subclass more appealing, yet still balanced.

Besides, if the devs were willing to seriously modify already-published material (that doesn't tie in to certain politics, apparently), then they'd have long-since made official changes to the Ranger, and even Sorcerer classes. Since they still haven't done so all these years later, it's pretty safe to say that they won't. Which means the only real way to get more fun & balanced setups is to do it ourselves. While it'll never fly in AL games, brewing changes that are fun + easy to understand + balanced may get various DMs' approval for their home games. That's my goal, at least.

To make it really easy, try giving the 4E monk a free Magical Initiate feat at lvl3, that always keys off Dex or Wis (your choice), and +wis-mod Ki per short rest at lvl3 as well.

It's pretty much the flexibility they want and need. It's also not too much extra Ki (only being +2-+5 ki/sr on top the standard monk ki-at-this-level table), but it lets them do some cool basic monk stuff, while also doing a bit of awesome 4E stuff too. It's a nice early boost, but it doesn't get too silly-powerful later-on either. You actually do need to ASI into stats for heaps of extra Ki, so there is a slight trade-off.

The free MI feat lets you theme yourself wonderfully, but also doesn't restrict you to only being elemental. You could go Druid for Guidance/ Druidcraft/ Goodberry if you wanted for a more healy-natural-mystic vibe, or Wizard with Firebolt/ Frostbite/ Ice Knife for a fire+ice theme (along with 4E power choices to match). Think vaguely elementally minor illusions, telekinesis with mage hand, and turbo-boost expeditious retreat is how your temple combines the elements? Or mad punchy hexes, eldritch ki-blasts, and the odd created bonfire is the way your mob does it? Go for it! The world is the mollusc of your choice with Magical Initiate, especially when it keys off Dex or Wis regardless of what class you pick for MI cantrips and a single spell. You can always have a ranged option if you want, but you can go for utility, or for something like booming blade for low-level melee control, and a 1 per long rest lvl1 spell is never overpowered, no matter what it is (even if that spell is Find Familiar, it's 1/day, and is very easy to kill).

Anyway, it works, it's really damn easy, and so yeah. That fixes 4E monks. It's two simple add-ons, but it brings the subclass in line with many others, doesn't restrict player choice or backstory, and is really easy to use. Not super powerful, but is super fun, and doesn't feel like it lacks power either. +2 cantrips, +1/day lvl1 spell, +wis-mod Ki/sr. Done! Fixed!

(they go from being the worst monk subclass to being one of the best early on. But they're not as "basically powerful" as a lvl2 moon, a lvl2-5 fighter, a lvl4-6 pally, or any lvl3+ full caster. But they're certainly very playable with these two additions, even if you have a weird amount of short/long rests per day, or just the standard amount, in the campaign you're playing in)

((it's actually not a bad idea to give *all* monks, of any subclass, +wis-mod Ki per short rest at lvl3, because it fixes the entire class, but since this thread is just for the subclass of 4E monks, it still works just as well. You're still MAD as hell, but you can't wait to take more of it. Monk levels, that is))

(((if you're really worried about stat minmaxing, do it as +proficiency-bonus Ki per short rest. Not such a bad thing, because they only get it at level 3, whether you give it to all Monks or just 4E ones. It scales about the same at early levels, isn't easily dippable for (3 full caster or proper martial levels is almost always better in every way), but in case someone thinks that a potential +3 Ki per short rest at character creation is OP... It doesn't happen until level 3, it's not. If anything, +wis-mod is anti-dip compared to +proficiency Ki. It just lets monks, Monk Hard)))

Idk if I'd say a little extra ki and + 2 cantrips and a single 1/day spell checks all the boxes for a fix.

Unless you choose a bonus action or reaction spell, using your subclass stuff on any given turn would still mean not using your core Monk stuff on that turn (other than movement speed, I guess).

Frogreaver

2020-09-07, 03:14 PM

Our solution was to give the 4 elements subclass +1 ki and turn all the spells into bonus action casts. It played really well that way.

sambojin

2020-09-07, 05:53 PM

Idk if I'd say a little extra ki and + 2 cantrips and a single 1/day spell checks all the boxes for a fix.

Unless you choose a bonus action or reaction spell, using your subclass stuff on any given turn would still mean not using your core Monk stuff on that turn (other than movement speed, I guess).

But most monk stuff is like that. Want damage? You won't be dodging or BA dashing. Want to 4E cast hold person? Then you won't be attacking. Monks, especially 4E ones, have a pretty big trade-off list for their actions and bonus actions (and even reactions). I think it's an intended part of the class, not a 4E-only problem.

My fix feels pretty good, works thematically, isn't overpowered, and doesn't require a slew of new rules or class changes, so that's a fix in my book. A quick-fix perhaps, but a fix none-the-less. It works, so it works for our playgroup.

Christew

2020-09-07, 06:44 PM

What do you mean "a clear line to the devs?" Do we expect devs to read any of these threads? Idk about anyone else, but my interest is in finding a way to make the subclass more appealing, yet still balanced.
A clear line as in "the ability I am proposing is a refluff or power neutral rework of something released by WotC, as opposed to "the ability I am proposing is based on my personal vision of balance and has no connection to anything released by WotC."

I am not suggesting the devs read this or any other thread. I am interested in the same thing. Again, someone asked about non-spell elemental abilities and I suggested using UAs (specifically the giant inspired ones due to their elemental basis) as inspiration.

HPisBS

2020-09-08, 12:06 AM

But most monk stuff is like that. Want damage? You won't be dodging or BA dashing. Want to 4E cast hold person? Then you won't be attacking. Monks, especially 4E ones, have a pretty big trade-off list for their actions and bonus actions (and even reactions). I think it's an intended part of the class, not a 4E-only problem.

My fix feels pretty good, works thematically, isn't overpowered, and doesn't require a slew of new rules or class changes, so that's a fix in my book. A quick-fix perhaps, but a fix none-the-less. It works, so it works for our playgroup.

To an extent, sure. The difference is that using or not using RAW EleMonk disciplines is an all-or-nothing choice. Unlike BA dashing, dodging, or flurrying, if you use a RAW discipline, that's it - that's your whole turn, basically. Not only does it use a bunch of your limited ki (which your suggestion does significantly mitigate), but it also uses up your whole action economy. Unlike all the tradeoffs that're built into the core Monk chassis, or into the rest of the Monk subclasses, using a RAW EleMonk discipline - or a Magic Initiate spell - means not doing a normal attack and not stunning. (Unless the discipline is Fire Snake, which has other problems.)

A clear line as in "the ability I am proposing is a refluff or power neutral rework of something released by WotC, as opposed to "the ability I am proposing is based on my personal vision of balance and has no connection to anything released by WotC."

I am not suggesting the devs read this or any other thread. I am interested in the same thing. Again, someone asked about non-spell elemental abilities and I suggested using UAs (specifically the giant inspired ones due to their elemental basis) as inspiration.

Ok, so a "clear line" as in an evolutionary sense. Like this was clearly born out of that. I see now.

But that makes me wonder if post 2's (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?618064-Let-s-Fix-The-4-Elements-Monk&p=24684610#post24684610) brew factored into your statement at all. 'Cuz that's definitely not a mere refluff, nor power neutral. It's a straight buff – it's exclusively additional, non-spell elemental abilities (or buffs to abilities) to layer on top of an EleMonk's discipline choices. (Well, the brew part is exclusively that, but I also added other __ spell, but with an elemental discipline name options, too.)

x3n0n

2020-09-08, 07:39 AM

To an extent, sure. The difference is that using or not using RAW EleMonk disciplines is an all-or-nothing choice. Unlike BA dashing, dodging, or flurrying, if you use a RAW discipline, that's it - that's your whole turn, basically. Not only does it use a bunch of your limited ki (which your suggestion does significantly mitigate), but it also uses up your whole action economy. Unlike all the tradeoffs that're built into the core Monk chassis, or into the rest of the Monk subclasses, using a RAW EleMonk discipline - or a Magic Initiate spell - means not doing a normal attack and not stunning. (Unless the discipline is Fire Snake, which has other problems.)

FWIW, the Class Feature Variants UA specifically had a bit to mitigate this part, in which you can make an Unarmed Strike as a bonus action if you spent at least one ki on your action. (Given that much of the CFV UA is expected to be in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, maybe it will even be RAW soon.)

I'd certainly expect that feature to be above the line for any DM who is willing to use a homebrew variant subclass.

Regarding the post-2 proposal, I do like the idea of having Fire Snake get held "as if concentrating on a spell" for some reasonable duration, either 10 minutes or an hour (maybe with fluff about "while concentrating, your hands and feet shed light as if you were holding a torch"). At that point, I'd be interested in trying it without the ki-less bonus action, since it can have much less impact on your ki economy.

HPisBS

2020-09-09, 06:17 PM

FWIW, the Class Feature Variants UA specifically had a bit to mitigate this part, in which you can make an Unarmed Strike as a bonus action if you spent at least one ki on your action. (Given that much of the CFV UA is expected to be in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, maybe it will even be RAW soon.)

I'd certainly expect that feature to be above the line for any DM who is willing to use a homebrew variant subclass.

I'd certainly like that (and most of the Variants UA) to become official like that.

I wonder how much that would actually improve people's evaluations of the EleMonk itself? It'd definitely help - perhaps even put it lower on the list of subclasses that need fixing - but I bet that alone wouldn't be enough.

Regarding the post-2 proposal, I do like the idea of having Fire Snake get held "as if concentrating on a spell" for some reasonable duration, either 10 minutes or an hour (maybe with fluff about "while concentrating, your hands and feet shed light as if you were holding a torch"). At that point, I'd be interested in trying it without the ki-less bonus action, since it can have much less impact on your ki economy.

Perhaps. But like I said, I prefer to err on the side of caution when homebrewing, lest my brew get dismissed as just another OP brew-monstrosity.

x3n0n

2020-09-09, 07:21 PM

I'd certainly like that (and most of the Variants UA) to become official like that.

I wonder how much that would actually improve people's evaluations of the EleMonk itself? It'd definitely help - perhaps even put it lower on the list of subclasses that need fixing - but I bet that alone wouldn't be enough.

Perhaps. But like I said, I prefer to err on the side of caution when homebrewing, lest my brew get dismissed as just another OP brew-monstrosity.

Agreed that the bonus unarmed strike isn't enough.

On the second point, I meant you could just try adding this clause from your Fire Snake to the RAW: "[t]he discipline ends at the end of your turn, unless you use your concentration to maintain it as if concentrating on a spell." That reduces (but doesn't eliminate) the ki expenditure, feels flavorful, and makes it worthwhile to protect your concentration.

Segev

2020-09-10, 12:25 AM

For all its faults, I think one thing the Four Elements Monk is great about is that expanding its options is trivial. It's one of a relatively few subclasses in the game that has a "build your own" element to it: you pick your techniques as you go. The only other ones I can think of off the top of my head are the Battle Master Fighter and the Spirit Totem Barbarian.

So, an easy way to make the Four Elements Monk better is to just start creating techniques it can choose that are actually worth taking and using!

Edea

2020-09-10, 02:56 AM

Another option's to have the abilities use something other than ki, something contained in-subclass similar to a Battlemaster's superiority dice.

Asisreo1

2020-09-10, 08:00 AM

Another option's to have the abilities use something other than ki, something contained in-subclass similar to a Battlemaster's superiority dice.
The martial arts die was going to be consumable. The playtesters disliked the overmanagement of several different mechanics for the character they wanted to play (hit things alot with fists and kung fu) so ultimately that mechanic was scrapped.

Segev

2020-09-10, 10:10 AM

What can't the four elements monk do that it needs to to keep up?

Nhorianscum

2020-09-10, 08:37 PM

What can't the four elements monk do that it needs to to keep up?

Compared to other monks? It's average up to mid to late tier 2 where it jumps waaay ahead, and just... keeps rocketing ahead.

Compared to not monks all monks are awful except for 4e in the mid to late game.

It's baffling that folks find the "hey look I can just straight spam mid level spells" monk to be the weakest because... reasons?

x3n0n

2020-09-10, 09:30 PM

Compared to other monks? It's average up to mid to late tier 2 where it jumps waaay ahead, and just... keeps rocketing ahead.

Compared to not monks all monks are awful except for 4e in the mid to late game.

It's baffling that folks find the "hey look I can just straight spam mid level spells" monk to be the weakest because... reasons?

Interesting! The biggest argument I've heard like this before is that you just need to get to 11 for Fireball. Do you just do the "base monk thing" until then? (That is, trade off your ki needs between Stunning Strike and everything else, mostly ignoring the disciplines?)

What am I missing about "late tier 2"? Enough ki for repeated Shatter/Thunderwave or lots of Fire Snake?

Nhorianscum

2020-09-10, 10:22 PM

Interesting! The biggest argument I've heard like this before is that you just need to get to 11 for Fireball. Do you just do the "base monk thing" until then? (That is, trade off your ki needs between Stunning Strike and everything else, mostly ignoring the disciplines?)

What am I missing about "late tier 2"? Enough ki for repeated Shatter/Thunderwave or lots of Fire Snake?

Oh you get the normal monk kit and a fistful of useful things from your "not-casting" eventually capping off at some very potent spells in tier 3 ofc.

The big draw is that Fire snake + dipping for other not-awful modifiers (dueling+surge, d6 on-hit-spell+magical stave's) hits really, really, reaaaally hard and the dipping just makes you better at monk stuff than... actual monk levels. Also water whip and rush of the gale spirits are all stars early on.

(edit: Gust of wind is way better than most folks seem to think when you can cast it for a measly 2 ki points on a class with built in stun and ranged trip+ a 15 ft reach mele attack.)

Fireball in tier 3 is bad, outright spamming 5th or 6th level fireball at the same rate as the party warlock is quite strong. We eventually upgrade to cone of cold and wall of stone spam. Which is more than decent on a martial in tier 4 with built in flight.

(Unfortunately the discipline's known list is quite short so there is a degree of pick, and chose but all in all I've never regretted rolling up my 4e)

x3n0n

2020-09-11, 08:55 AM

Oh you get the normal monk kit and a fistful of useful things from your "not-casting" eventually capping off at some very potent spells in tier 3 ofc.

The big draw is that Fire snake + dipping for other not-awful modifiers (dueling+surge, d6 on-hit-spell+magical stave's) hits really, really, reaaaally hard and the dipping just makes you better at monk stuff than... actual monk levels. Also water whip and rush of the gale spirits are all stars early on.

(edit: Gust of wind is way better than most folks seem to think when you can cast it for a measly 2 ki points on a class with built in stun and ranged trip+ a 15 ft reach mele attack.)

Fireball in tier 3 is bad, outright spamming 5th or 6th level fireball at the same rate as the party warlock is quite strong. We eventually upgrade to cone of cold and wall of stone spam. Which is more than decent on a martial in tier 4 with built in flight.

(Unfortunately the discipline's known list is quite short so there is a degree of pick, and chose but all in all I've never regretted rolling up my 4e)

Ok, that is what I was missing, and explains how "late tier 2" is relevant for these builds: multiclassing (Fighter 2 and Hexblade 1).

(Hexblade 1 confuses me: Hex, Shield, and Hexblade's Curse are very good, but the armor, shields, martial weapons, and ability to Cha-wield your staff all seem wasted, especially trading off a level of ki and requiring 13 Cha for the multiclass requirement.)

That said, taking non-Monk levels puts even more stress on your ki, so you have fewer chances to use your disciplines.

I guess this goes back to the biggest theme: elemonk's unique strengths are locked behind (lots of) ki, giving it more "nova" capability but less consistent output (and less fun for players who want to use their powers frequently, not just in a big explosion). Fighter 2 amps it up further.

Edit:

Having re-read the sub-thread with sambojin, I think his proposal or something similar *plus* the CFV UA bonus unarmed strike makes tier 1&2 elemonk look much more appealing.

Even just the following feels a lot better to me:

Monk 2: BA Unarmed Strike if you spent ki on your action (hopefully coming in Tasha's)
EleMonk 3: add'l ki, either Wis-mod or prof-bonus (perhaps limited to being spent on disciplines, as in the Metamagic Adept UA feat?)

Adding new discipline choices is reasonable as well, and in line with what they've done for invocations and seem likely to do in Tasha's for maneuvers (and maybe fighting styles).

I'd still like an additional discipline at each bump and a real feature at each of 6/11/17 like Battle Master gets, but even this might be enough for me.

Fnissalot

2020-09-11, 09:43 AM

What would happen if you just gave them either access to all disciplines (17 instead of 5 if I counted correctly) or made them able to switch all of them on a short or long rest.

One side of the problem seems to be that it burns the base monks resources, while the other seems to be the very limited set of options you can have at a time. This would not fix the first one but would deal with the second one?

Nhorianscum

2020-09-11, 09:44 AM

Ok, that is what I was missing, and explains how "late tier 2" is relevant for these builds: multiclassing (Fighter 2 and Hexblade 1).

(Hexblade 1 confuses me: Hex, Shield, and Hexblade's Curse are very good, but the armor, shields, martial weapons, and ability to Cha-wield your staff all seem wasted, especially trading off a level of ki and requiring 13 Cha for the multiclass requirement.)

That said, taking non-Monk levels puts even more stress on your ki, so you have fewer chances to use your disciplines.

I guess this goes back to the biggest theme: elemonk's unique strengths are locked behind (lots of) ki, giving it more "nova" capability but less consistent output (and less fun for players who want to use their powers frequently, not just in a big explosion). Fighter 2 amps it up further.

Quick note for clarity...

Oh tier 2 mostly matters for the additional discipline, and in addition to the multi's avalible we gain "enough" ki to do everything we want to do at monk7. (21 a day/3 nova's a day is quite good).

Hex1 is what I wound up using on my 4e monk because AL and it not only gave disguise self+hexcurse+hex it gave cantrips and magical stave access. This last bit is important because Staff of Defense was a thing I had access to. Being able to pick up and use magical staves is "extremely good" outside of a whiteroom. Monks have trash equipment by default so just slapping on a Str item and slinging a pair of magical staves winds up being much stronger than... trying to pump dex and use "monk armor" items or a whopping 3ki/day.

(There are other options for whatever multi folks want but 4e in particular just thrives on surge+stave access)

--------------

I sorta feel like the "spam powers" thing is a terrible argument when used to discuss any nova class or build.

x3n0n

2020-09-11, 10:25 AM

Quick note for clarity...

Oh tier 2 mostly matters for the additional discipline, and in addition to the multi's avalible we gain "enough" ki to do everything we want to do at monk7. (21 a day/3 nova's a day is quite good).

Hex1 is what I wound up using on my 4e monk because AL and it not only gave disguise self+hexcurse+hex it gave cantrips and magical stave access. This last bit is important because Staff of Defense was a thing I had access to. Being able to pick up and use magical staves is "extremely good" outside of a whiteroom. Monks have trash equipment by default so just slapping on a Str item and slinging a pair of magical staves winds up being much stronger than... trying to pump dex and use "monk armor" items or a whopping 3ki/day.

(There are other options for whatever multi folks want but 4e in particular just thrives on surge+stave access)

--------------

I sorta feel like the "spam powers" thing is a terrible argument when used to discuss any nova class or build.

Got it--thanks for clarifying. I am not used to figuring magic items into my builds (since they're often not available in my games). I agree that relevant magic weapons are often inaccessible to single-classed non-Kensei Monks (and sometimes not even then, when requiring attunement to a spellcaster class).

I guess the nova and short-rest argument relates back to the Arcane Archer thread: people like using their abilities, and a roughly twice per short rest limit for your only subclass feature feels to many like you might as well not have a subclass.

Amnestic

2020-09-12, 04:46 PM

Hi I'm back with an updated discipline list and a minor tweak to the stances following feedback. Here it is (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/ePfpWBgvv). Works fine in firefox, hopefully formatted fine for other browsers too.

One other gripe I have that I am surprised noone else seems to is that the Monk just has refluffed spells to work with. I would much prefer if the monk's abilities were differentiated from spells in some way, I don't like that its doing the same thing with a different casting system. Surely the way the monk controls the elements is more fluid and less restrictive than the boxes in which the spells come

This kinda struck a chord with me so I went back and retooled the list. Some are still similar (Gong of the Summit is a slightly different Shatter, for instance) but I've switched it up a bit. The only ones that I couldn't separate from directly referring spells was the Wall of Stone and Control Water equivalents - I realised I'd basically just be rewriting the spell descriptions. Control Water is already super flexible, and I changed Wall of Stone so that its effects are instant and don't require concentration.

There's four disciplines per level per element with the exception of 17th which is three per element per level. Even if it's not to people's fancy I quite like a number of disciplines I came up with that do more unusual things and hopefully it works as an inspiration.

It was fun to write, if nothing else. My favourites for each element are probably Lingering Flame Bursts Forth, Ferrous Force, Cryostasis and Take their Breath Away since I don't think there's anything like them in spell lists. If there is, I didn't know about them before writing it at least.