Oath of Conquest vs Oath of Predation

[furby076]

So my oath of ancients pally (lvl 7) has gone round the bend (aka, being controlled by an artifact). He is presently an NPC, but the DM and I run solo sessions to see what he does (I control him during those sessions).

He is bent on conquering the world, to ensure order will prevail because Chaos is rampant. Tthe PC group are agents of chaos, people who cannot follow the rules are agents of chaos. Essentially, he is unhappy with the chaos of the world and the misery it brings; This paladin is here to bring absolute order. That might sound all well and good, and then you imagine countries like N. Korea that have absolute order. Folks aren't too happy. The only punishment, for ANY crime, is death.

My character walks around in unholy full plate, wielding a matching greatsword that absorbs light (kind of like a black hole) and drinks the life blood of those it strikes down (anyone who see's the sword cutting through something see's it absorbing the blood). The paladin mount is a great cat that is slowly starting to look more like a hellish cat.

My DM and I think that until my character recovers (through death, or the PCs stopping him and removing the curse from him), he should be either Oath of Conquest or Oath of Predation.

Oath of predation is nice "Paladins who follow the Oath of Predation believe that the world can only be made perfect through utter control."
Predatory instincts is an amazing combat ability, but Fell Suggestion is great for conquering the masses via words.

Oath of Conquest : We all know what this is about. The Oath of Conquest calls to paladins who seek glory in battle and the subjugation of their enemies. It isn’t enough for these paladins to establish order. They must crush the forces of chaos.
The abilities are more combat focused and the fear ability is pretty nice.


Thoughts? Which makes more sense from power perspective, but I think also combat. At some point the paladin will need to fight the group. I will most likely control the paladin in this fight.

[Amnestic]

What's Oath of Predation from?

[cutlery]

What's Oath of Predation from?

Xanathar's Lost Notes to Everything Else - it isn't core, and I can't find a set of the oath benefits anywhere (well with five minutes of looking).

[furby076]

Predatory Instincts.
Channel Divinity: Add Cha modifier to initiative. You have advantage on attack rolls vs any creature that hasn't taken a turn in combat yet and deal an extra d6 necrotic damage (level dependent damage)

Fell Suggestion
Channel Divinity : As an action, may enthral a creature within 5 feet of you. They make a save or are charmed for 1 minute. You use a bonus action to issue simple commands

Perfect Domination
At level 7, you can force the creature to fail it's saving throw vs Fell Suggestion if it's CR is a certain # or lower (level dependent). The creature also suffers this ability for 1 hour vs 1 minute. At level 15, creatures CR 1/2 or lower are indefinitely charmed until it is broken.

Capstone is 1 minute per long rest
Greater Invisibility
If you do damage when you have advantage, you deal bonus damage = paladin level
Allies have advantage to creatures within 5 feet of you
The character plus any chosen creature are immune to charm if they are within 30' of the character

Gain proficiency in thieves tools and Sleight of hand or stealth

[Amnestic]

Okay, from the OP and the mechanics provided Conquest sounds like it makes far more sense than Predation. Predation brings to mind a Paladin/Assassin hybrid. Strike first, and sway the tide of battle by charming people to your side temporarily, but the way the OP describes the character/goals says they want to tame the world and become its master, this is definitely more Conquest to me.

Fell Suggestion only a) lasting for one minute, b) applying to only one target and c) only usable 1/SR doesn't really inspire the 'enthralling the masses' fantasy, to me at least.

[Unoriginal]

So my oath of ancients pally (lvl 7) has gone round the bend (aka, being controlled by an artifact). He is presently an NPC, but the DM and I run solo sessions to see what he does (I control him during those sessions).

He is bent on conquering the world, to ensure order will prevail because Chaos is rampant. Tthe PC group are agents of chaos, people who cannot follow the rules are agents of chaos. Essentially, he is unhappy with the chaos of the world and the misery it brings; This paladin is here to bring absolute order. That might sound all well and good, and then you imagine countries like N. Korea that have absolute order. Folks aren't too happy. The only punishment, for ANY crime, is death.

My character walks around in unholy full plate, wielding a matching greatsword that absorbs light (kind of like a black hole) and drinks the life blood of those it strikes down (anyone who see's the sword cutting through something see's it absorbing the blood). The paladin mount is a great cat that is slowly starting to look more like a hellish cat.

My DM and I think that until my character recovers (through death, or the PCs stopping him and removing the curse from him), he should be either Oath of Conquest or Oath of Predation.

Oath of predation is nice "Paladins who follow the Oath of Predation believe that the world can only be made perfect through utter control."
Predatory instincts is an amazing combat ability, but Fell Suggestion is great for conquering the masses via words.

Oath of Conquest : We all know what this is about. The Oath of Conquest calls to paladins who seek glory in battle and the subjugation of their enemies. It isn’t enough for these paladins to establish order. They must crush the forces of chaos.
The abilities are more combat focused and the fear ability is pretty nice.


Thoughts? Which makes more sense from power perspective, but I think also combat. At some point the paladin will need to fight the group. I will most likely control the paladin in this fight.

A Paladin's Oath is in their soul, not in their body.

The artifact/curse wants absolute order and absolute control, and wants absolute power to accomplish it. But being a Paladin is all about being greater by swearing yourself to an ideal bigger than the individual.


I think it would make much more sense and be much more thematically interesting that the artifact/curse that has taken over is 100% utterly incapable of using the powers of a Paladin, especially of an Oath of the Ancients one, and that it frustrates it endlessly since it's obviously a control freak. They hoped for a grand vessel, they end up with a combatant with neither magic nor incredible martial training.

That doesn't make it harmless, of course. What do control freak do when they don't get what they want? They cheat.

As a result, I would make the artifact constantly pushing the Paladin's body way past its limits, taking tons of potions and magic drugs and any rituals it can force others to perform, plus tracking down people who have magic items and taking said items from them. When it comes to blow, it doesn't care how much the Paladin's body get destroyed, it can be healed back up afterward after all, and it just uses it to go full attack-attack-attack on one target after the next until the enemies either stop moving or start groveling.

[furby076]

A Paladin's Oath is in their soul, not in their body.

The artifact/curse wants absolute order and absolute control, and wants absolute power to accomplish it. But being a Paladin is all about being greater by swearing yourself to an ideal bigger than the individual.


I think it would make much more sense and be much more thematically interesting that the artifact/curse that has taken over is 100% utterly incapable of using the powers of a Paladin, especially of an Oath of the Ancients one, and that it frustrates it endlessly since it's obviously a control freak. They hoped for a grand vessel, they end up with a combatant with neither magic nor incredible martial training.

That doesn't make it harmless, of course. What do control freak do when they don't get what they want? They cheat.

As a result, I would make the artifact constantly pushing the Paladin's body way past its limits, taking tons of potions and magic drugs and any rituals it can force others to perform, plus tracking down people who have magic items and taking said items from them. When it comes to blow, it doesn't care how much the Paladin's body get destroyed, it can be healed back up afterward after all, and it just uses it to go full attack-attack-attack on one target after the next until the enemies either stop moving or start groveling.

That's a good, and fun point. The sword/armor would be frustrated. The Sword/Armor is pure evil and was previously known as Tremane's Armor of Wrath. Tremane being the former wearer. I believe (not the DM) the sword/armor goal is to kill and siphon souls. In my paladins case, since he obeys the law and is a good guy, it turned him evil - but reconciles the law portion as "meh". So my character is evil until this is resolved (one way or the other).

Anymore thoughts/opinions appreciated. And thanks for all the help!

[Unoriginal]

If you really want to have him be able to use Paladin powers, then I suggest Oathbreaker.

Class is made for this.

[CheddarChampion]

Oath of Predation Subclass Abilities

Fell Suggestion/Perfect Domination seem too strong for a CD. It is comparable to Dominate Monster, an 8th level spell.
It might actually be better since the enthralled creature doesn't get a save each time it takes damage!

Capstone seems way too strong. Greater Invisibility likely gives you advantage on attack rolls, so it is not hard to get the +20 damage per hit. Each hit.
If you have a means to attack using a bonus action that's +60 damage per turn.
But it probably won't come up. Level 20 and all.

Has your DM read the class abilities for Oath of Predation?
If one of my players asked to use it I'd only agree to a nerfed version.

[furby076]

Fell Suggestion/Perfect Domination seem too strong for a CD. It is comparable to Dominate Monster, an 8th level spell.
It might actually be better since the enthralled creature doesn't get a save each time it takes damage!

Capstone seems way too strong. Greater Invisibility likely gives you advantage on attack rolls, so it is not hard to get the +20 damage per hit. Each hit.
If you have a means to attack using a bonus action that's +60 damage per turn.
But it probably won't come up. Level 20 and all.

Has your DM read the class abilities for Oath of Predation?
If one of my players asked to use it I'd only agree to a nerfed version.

Wow, I read it as too weak. It has a CR cap. 7th level = 1/2 CR, 11th level = 1 CR, 15th level = 2 CR, 19th level = 3 CR. A creature under Dominate person only saves when they take damage. A creature under Fell Suggestion makes a save every round. Plus, it's only 1 target. If the thing did mass targets it would be much better.

Greater invisibility (4th level) is nice, but i wouldn't call it broken. At 20th level that's an easy access spell/magic item. Plus, as you mentioned Level 20 and all. The bonus paladin damage is once per turn. Sorry I didn't type out all of the abilities. Not sure what can be typed onto forums and not cause folks getting upset over copyright violations (i have no idea)

The DM brought up the subclass to me. I never heard of it until a couple of days ago. While nobody at our table tries to make anything broken, our DM has no issue adjusting the game to make things challenges. In other words my paladin is the most "broken" and he is straight human oath of ancients without any material outside of core rules besides improved paladin mount. Some of the group (Warlock) uses Xanathars and that's about it.

[noob]

Wow, I read it as too weak. It has a CR cap. 7th level = 1/2 CR, 11th level = 1 CR, 15th level = 2 CR, 19th level = 3 CR. A creature under Dominate person only saves when they take damage. A creature under Fell Suggestion makes a save every round. Plus, it's only 1 target. If the thing did mass targets it would be much better.

Greater invisibility (4th level) is nice, but i wouldn't call it broken. At 20th level that's an easy access spell/magic item. Plus, as you mentioned Level 20 and all. The bonus paladin damage is once per turn. Sorry I didn't type out all of the abilities. Not sure what can be typed onto forums and not cause folks getting upset over copyright violations (i have no idea)

The DM brought up the subclass to me. I never heard of it until a couple of days ago. While nobody at our table tries to make anything broken, our DM has no issue adjusting the game to make things challenges. In other words my paladin is the most "broken" and he is straight human oath of ancients without any material outside of core rules besides improved paladin mount. Some of the group (Warlock) uses Xanathars and that's about it.
So stopping to use your class features ought to make your paladin less powerful.

[furby076]

So stopping to use your class features ought to make your paladin less powerful.

Sorry, I don't follow