how good is persistent widen antimagic field on a monster?

[newguydude1]

master specialist can cast personal abjuration spells as a touch spell
antimagic field is a personal abjuration spell
im building a character who can create a simulacrum whose hd is equal to my cl.

so put all this together, i can get a pure beatstick simulacrum like a pit fiend (need more research on which monsters have the best beatstick stats for their hd.), slap a persistent widened antimagic field on it, and have it just go to town while ignoring like 99% of d&d.
ignore at-will teleport monsters
ignore all spells
ignore all su abilities including breath weapons
ignore all buffs especially persistent buffs
ignore all equipment benefits
ignore all spells that give a weapon good aligned so the pit fiends regeneration is literally unbeatable

in theory anyway. so how good is this in practice?

i have to sacrifice quite a bit in my build to get master specialist abjuration so id like to know just how good this is before spending all that effort.

this is for pve purposes only. my eye is on them daemon princes, not epic incantatrixes and such.

[Efrate]

It can be dispelled and disjuncted. There are good artifacts which it does not usually affect, rob spells still work if they originate from outside your field, as does most conjuration. Prismatic sphere iirc functions just fine as a defensive measure against you. Any magic that creates a heavy enough piece of matter can drop it on you an bury you for eternity. It's a bit of a hoop to jump through but its doable. Control weather creates the actual conditions and AMF does nothing to a tornado.

[Thunder999]

Flight+AMF is about as threatening as a beatstick is likely to get, so fairly effective, though you'd probably still be better off grabbing something with good casting or SLAs as your minion instead.

[newguydude1]

It can be dispelled and disjuncted. There are good artifacts which it does not usually affect, rob spells still work if they originate from outside your field, as does most conjuration. Prismatic sphere iirc functions just fine as a defensive measure against you. Any magic that creates a heavy enough piece of matter can drop it on you an bury you for eternity. It's a bit of a hoop to jump through but its doable. Control weather creates the actual conditions and AMF does nothing to a tornado.

cant be dispelled. only disjuncted.

so... you are saying its strong right? or is control weather so strong having spells is better than an amf?


Flight+AMF is about as threatening as a beatstick is likely to get, so fairly effective, though you'd probably still be better off grabbing something with good casting or SLAs as your minion instead.

do you have an example?

[Toliudar]

Make sure that you have a way to affect the minion with magic when you need to, to teleport, create disguises, provide energy resistance to get them through the lava waterfall.

[Efrate]

AMF is strong but spells are better. Always. If you can do some shenanigans to ignore it like initiate of mystra it's better but if that is your op level things get a lot different.

[tiercel]

If your antimagic beatstick becomes the solution to too many challenges, you might wind up learning why wizards’ hats are so popular. (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/1ksmnx/35the_ubiquitous_wizard_hat_and_its_true_function/)

[newguydude1]

Make sure that you have a way to affect the minion with magic when you need to, to teleport, create disguises, provide energy resistance to get them through the lava waterfall.

amf is dismissable so not a problem.


AMF is strong but spells are better. Always. If you can do some shenanigans to ignore it like initiate of mystra it's better but if that is your op level things get a lot different.

so if your fighting a planetar... how is spells better? like planetar v.s. a 16hd creature. the choice is either a 16hd creature with your wizard stuff, or a 16hd creature with an amf.
assume a normal high op wizard. not mailman, but anything else. anything that isnt stack metamagic reducers. like high save dc bfc or some awesome prc like shadowcraft is fine. just not incantatrix throwing one shot orbs.


If your antimagic beatstick becomes the solution to too many challenges, you might wind up learning why wizards’ hats are so popular. (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/1ksmnx/35the_ubiquitous_wizard_hat_and_its_true_function/)

the monster can simply pick up or tip the hat. now the wizard has to walk through an aoo which will be used to grapple before he can cast a spell.

now if he prepared a contingency to teleport upon hat trigger, um, i dunno. dont think i can teleport after him without dismissing the amf first at which point im sure ill lose.

[Afghanistan]

so put all this together, i can get a pure beatstick simulacrum like a pit fiend (need more research on which monsters have the best beatstick stats for their hd.), slap a persistent widened antimagic field on it, and have it just go to town while ignoring like 99% of d&d.


(The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)


A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.


If an instantaneous spell is entirely suppressed, that spell is effectively canceled. (It’s suppressed, and its duration instantaneously expires.)

Your issue here is primarily that Simulacrum is not a Conjuration (Creation) spell. This would cancel out your Simulacrum forcing you to start all over again, one 16th level spell slot shorter. The spell specifically calls instantaneous conjurations out and leaves them as the sole exception to what functions, as far as spellcasting goes, going into an Antimagic field.

[newguydude1]

Your issue here is primarily that Simulacrum is not a Conjuration (Creation) spell. This would cancel out your Simulacrum forcing you to start all over again, one 16th level spell slot shorter. The spell specifically calls instantaneous conjurations out and leaves them as the sole exception to what functions, as far as spellcasting goes, going into an Antimagic field.

simulacrum is an instantaneous spell. furthermore the spell says creatures that are "imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting" like constructs, undead, outsiders, and elementals are unaffected. lastly simulacrum monsters are not treated any differently than any other creature. they only wink out if their incorporeal or summoned somehow.

[Kelb_Panthera]

master specialist can cast personal abjuration spells as a touch spell
antimagic field is a personal abjuration spell
im building a character who can create a simulacrum whose hd is equal to my cl.

Kay. It's an option.


so put all this together, i can get a pure beatstick simulacrum like a pit fiend (need more research on which monsters have the best beatstick stats for their hd.), slap a persistent widened antimagic field on it, and have it just go to town while ignoring like 99% of d&d.

It's a lot less than 99% but hyperbole is what it is, I suppose.


ignore at-will teleport monsters

Force them to pop in and out from at least 20 feet away. It's not nothing but it's a -long- way from ignoring them. Throws something of a monkey-wrench in ethereal marauders and similar though.


ignore all spells

Lol, no. Whole swathes of conjuration and illusion don't care in the slightest. Clever casters can even weaponize an AMF against its bearer. All kinds of fun stuff can be whacked with shrink object and become an issue when they're tossed into the field. And then there's partial effects like a fog cloud or darkness spell obscuring your field of vision beyond that 20 feat for most of a 180 degree arc. A lot of BFC makes its changes instantaneously too, like transmute rock to lava aimed at a cave ceiling creating a hazard.


ignore all su abilities including breath weapons

Including the creature's own. Your pit-fiend loses its DR, for example.


ignore all buffs especially persistent buffs

Unless their use doesn't require entering the field; magic weapon on a bow or crossbow for example.


ignore all equipment benefits

Magical equipment. Alchemy still works just fine as do special materials and oddities like holy relics and artificer devices; though that last is a bit obscure, I'll admit.


ignore all spells that give a weapon good aligned so the pit fiends regeneration is literally unbeatable

Speaking of holy relics; the executioner's axe and saint's thighbone are both explicitly non-magical holy weapons, amongst other properties they have. Nevermind any weapon wielded by most good outsiders who can enter the field just fine as long as they're not from a summon spell. Oh, and trollbane.


in theory anyway. so how good is this in practice?

It's not awful but it's a -long- way from unbeatable.


i have to sacrifice quite a bit in my build to get master specialist abjuration so id like to know just how good this is before spending all that effort.

I wouldn't bother. 10 levels is a -massive- sacrifice for something slightly better than can be accomplished with a set of antimagic manacles.


this is for pve purposes only. my eye is on them daemon princes, not epic incantatrixes and such.

The demon princes, particularly the likes of orcus and grazz't, are going to laugh at anything that's not fairly deep into epic territory. They're absolutely beastly, epic melee creatures themselves, after all. Even a lot of equal level bruisers aren't going to be overmuch impressed if they weren't leaning pretty heavy on magic themselves.

[newguydude1]

Force them to pop in and out from at least 20 feet away. It's not nothing but it's a -long- way from ignoring them. Throws something of a monkey-wrench in ethereal marauders and similar though.

we lack dimensional anchor and a way to disrupt them even in a grapple. amf seems like a good way to keep em still. my beatstick is obviously gonna be a great grappler too.




Lol, no. Whole swathes of conjuration and illusion don't care in the slightest. Clever casters can even weaponize an AMF against its bearer. All kinds of fun stuff can be whacked with shrink object and become an issue when they're tossed into the field. And then there's partial effects like a fog cloud or darkness spell obscuring your field of vision beyond that 20 feat for most of a 180 degree arc. A lot of BFC makes its changes instantaneously too, like transmute rock to lava aimed at a cave ceiling creating a hazard.

other than orbs or wall of stone none of them sound particularly scary or an issue.



Unless their use doesn't require entering the field; magic weapon on a bow or crossbow for example.
ammunition become mundane when it enters the field. dont know about the bows magical effects though. anyone got a rule citation?




Magical equipment. Alchemy still works just fine as do special materials and oddities like holy relics and artificer devices; though that last is a bit obscure, I'll admit.

you talk like monsters have holy relics. what alchemy items are scary and problematic? compared to spells they seem like an ant which is the point of this thing. shutdown all the powerful things and deal with only subpar things.

again, other than orbs. walls arent an issue. they break easily.




Speaking of holy relics; the executioner's axe and saint's thighbone are both explicitly non-magical holy weapons, amongst other properties they have. Nevermind any weapon wielded by most good outsiders who can enter the field just fine as long as they're not from a summon spell. Oh, and trollbane.

are holy relics one of a kind? or are they mass producible like a normal +5 weapon?


It's not awful but it's a -long- way from unbeatable.

I wouldn't bother. 10 levels is a -massive- sacrifice for something slightly better than can be accomplished with a set of antimagic manacles.

im playing a 0gp character. 0gp start, 0gp end. mainly cause i dont want to deal with looting and inventory and shops. also cause i dont like relying on civilization. and lastly because i think ill be too op for my party if i use high op wizard and high op equipment.


The demon princes, particularly the likes of orcus and grazz't, are going to laugh at anything that's not fairly deep into epic territory. They're absolutely beastly, epic melee creatures themselves, after all. Even a lot of equal level bruisers aren't going to be overmuch impressed if they weren't leaning pretty heavy on magic themselves.

their cr = my cl = hd of my simulacrum. i think i can get a deep epic monster. some of them aboms. though the fun ones are all super high hd.

[Efrate]

A plantar only has sr 30 and a +14 fort. At 16 your cl should be plus 6 to plus 10 above hd, and int 30 which is reasonable normally for a wizard there give your saves of 20 plus spell level base. Before feats etc. Even disentigrate with just 30 int has a better than 50% chance to instagib it. Without extras.

That's normal wbl. If you insist on running with no wbl, you can't simulacra in general since 100gp per hd violates that. Assuming you hand wave that if your DM doesnt care that you shut off most the parties abilities unless you are all mundane, doesnt try to counter you, especially those who know you coming, then it can be very effective. But you have just turned combat into move attack pass for everyone which will get stale very quickly.

[newguydude1]

A plantar only has sr 30 and a +14 fort. At 16 your cl should be plus 6 to plus 10 above hd, and int 30 which is reasonable normally for a wizard there give your saves of 20 plus spell level base. Before feats etc. Even disentigrate with just 30 int has a better than 50% chance to instagib it. Without extras.

he has 17th level cleric casting though. no reason why he wouldnt be prebuffed. my dm uses optimized spell list, feat selection he just usually uses the normal standard. so it cant be that easy.


That's normal wbl. If you insist on running with no wbl, you can't simulacra in general since 100gp per hd violates that. Assuming you hand wave that if your DM doesnt care that you shut off most the parties abilities unless you are all mundane, doesnt try to counter you, especially those who know you coming, then it can be very effective. But you have just turned combat into move attack pass for everyone which will get stale very quickly.

dm rarely does party vs 1 monster. and we are a mostly mundane party. so they have stuff to do while i shutdown one guy with the amf which isnt that big. my creature is gonna be at least large so the amf is just gonna work on the monster right in front of it unless widened.

[Kelb_Panthera]

we lack dimensional anchor and a way to disrupt them even in a grapple. amf seems like a good way to keep em still. my beatstick is obviously gonna be a great grappler too.


Actually, no, that isn't at all obvious. Being a beater and being a grappler have a lot in common but they're not the same thing. First and foremost, not having a bypass for the AoO is gonna have you even engaging a grapple way less often. You're also gonna be stuck with comparable grapple mods to creatures with relatively low HD to CR ratios; outsiders, classed humanoids, etc; no matter what you do because of the limitations of using simulacra.

The classed humanoids are probably gonna have a rough time but they don't generally have at-will teleports. That's outsiders for the most part and that's the same pool of creatures you're drawing from if you're optimizing simulacrum. The numbers are going to be pretty comparable most of the time.

The underscored needs to be addressed by somebody in your party if you want to realistically tackle high-level, high-op play. Doesn't have to be you but it needs to be somebody.


other than orbs or wall of stone none of them sound particularly scary or an issue.

Serious? I mean, the orbs and walls are nothing to sneeze at on their own but how about images being used to misdirect, fog clouds being used as cover for AoE siege weapons, having a couple -tons- of molten rock dropped on your head. Even the humble ice-storm right out of the PHB can deliver a moderate thumping while slowing movement and impeding a basic sense. You ignore such things at your peril.




ammunition become mundane when it enters the field. dont know about the bows magical effects though. anyone got a rule citation?

Way to miss the point for the example. The point was that buffs that aren't just "hit it harder" still work just fine from outside the field. Sensory buffs, movement enhancements, and enhancements that do let you hit harder at range all function just fine. Being outmaneuvered can make loss not just more likely but much more frustrating as well.

As for the particular example; the enhancement to attack would apply but the enhancement to damage wouldn't as the former applies to the attacker outside the field and the latter to the target inside the field. Raining hell on a creature with regeneration can still take it out of the fight even if it can't kill it outright no different from normal damage being applied to a creature with fast-healing and the go-to for archers is doing their best impression of a machine gun.



you talk like monsters have holy relics. what alchemy items are scary and problematic? compared to spells they seem like an ant which is the point of this thing. shutdown all the powerful things and deal with only subpar things.

Holy relics exist. Nothing stops any creature capable of using tools from using them except their ability to acquire them which is entirely in the purview of the GM.

I submit the humble tanglefoot bag; DC 15 ref or be pinned to the spot/ knocked from the sky. At low level, the DC isn't so low that you can just ignore it. At mid level it's cheap enough to be spammed until it sticks. OA has the eggshell dust grenade; again, dirt cheap and easily spammable to force a fort save vs short-term blindness. And, of course, the fan favorite; Secrets of Sarlona's explosive packs can mimic a fireball except in bludgeoning & slashing damage instead of fire.

Magic is, no doubt, more powerful than alchemy by design. That doesn't make non-magical options worthless. Death by a single stroke or a thousand cuts; dead is dead.


again, other than orbs. walls arent an issue. they break easily.

Wall of force doesn't. In fact, it doesn't break at all. You have to disintegrate it or whack it with a rod of cancellation.




are holy relics one of a kind? or are they mass producible like a normal +5 weapon?

Neither. Circumstances coincide to spark their creation but they're not at all unique. While they'd most commonly be found in the possession of those who dedicate themselves to fighting evil, nothing stops them from being found anywhere any other treasure might be found. There have been at least as many saint's thighbones as there have been saints, if not more than twice that, and as many executioner's axes as there have been champions of good martyred by execution. What happens to them after their creation is no different from what happens to any other piece of treasure that circulates in the adventurers' economy.


im playing a 0gp character. 0gp start, 0gp end. mainly cause i dont want to deal with looting and inventory and shops. also cause i dont like relying on civilization. and lastly because i think ill be too op for my party if i use high op wizard and high op equipment.

I've seen the other thread. If your GM will let you get away with the necessary shenanigans to play a wizard with no personal wealth other than the effigies you plan to create, more power to you.

Doesn't change the fact this idea came up long ago when the antimagic manacles were first published and was quickly discarded for doing more harm than good to their bearer.


their cr = my cl = hd of my simulacrum. i think i can get a deep epic monster. some of them aboms. though the fun ones are all super high hd.

Your caster level at 20 is 20, therefore you can make a simulacrum of a creature of up to 40 HD but in so doing you make it a creature with only 20 HD and with all of it's HD related benefits reduced accordingly. After having its HD cut down that far, most creatures that would otherwise be epic ceases to be so. Unless you find a way to really pump your CL without wealth, you're not going to see any epic creatures until fairly late, if at all.




Honestly, it sounds like your entire battle plan is to just try to brute force any conflict on your minion's sheer numbers with little tactical or strategic consideration. As long as your GM answers in kind, you'll probably be alright but if he puts any effort into trying to get past the AMF, he will and then you're in a spot.