Isn't redcloak's JOB to take the matter to his god, instead of evaluating it himself?

[caltino]

Why did the last few strips turn into a discussion between mortals trying to convince each other? I thought this business was a matter between gods, as in the gods talking to each other through their clerics in Godsmoot. Roy's speech was useless there, because he wasn't part of the discussion. I thought Redcload would have to take the matter to his god and start channeling him so that Dark One and Thor could do their thing. The discussion is supposed to be at god level, isn't it? The clerics were not trying to convince each other at Godsmoot.

I get that redcloack hasn't spoken to his god personally before, but that's not a real obstacle- when the matter calls for it, it can be done. It's not up to RC to evaluate offers from a god to another god.

What do you think?

[Fyraltari]

Why did the last few strips turn into a discussion between mortals trying to convince each other? I thought this business was a matter between gods, as in the gods talking to each other through their clerics in Godsmoot. Roy's speech was useless there, because he wasn't part of the discussion. I thought Redcload would have to take the matter to his god and start channeling him so that Dark One and Thor could do their thing. The discussion is supposed to be at god level, isn't it? The clerics were not trying to convince each other at Godsmoot.

I get that redcloack hasn't spoken to his god personally before, but that's not a real obstacle- when the matter calls for it, it can be done. It's not up to RC to evaluate offers from a god to another god.

What do you think?
Two things:

1) If you are correct, Durkon still need to convince Redcloak to contact the Dark One. Until Redcloak agrees to help, nothing will happen. Why would Redcloak put the Plan on hold and talk to his god if he doesn't believe in Durkon's offer?

2) Durkon's job is to convince Redcloak to help by participating to a Ritual to give Thor access to some of the Dark One's energy that powers Redcloak's spell. Not to convince the Dark One.

[Roland Itiative]

Durkon's job doesn't require The Dark One's cooperation at all. It's to convince Redcloak to use a 9th level spell slot to help with the Rift-sealing. If that's the last cleric spell RC ever casts, and TDO decides to cut him off afterwards, it still served its purpose (until new Rifts appear).

Now, it would be nice if TDO himself agreed to help, and thus they would have a more permanent solution, but right now they're working on the short-term, as the other gods are very close to destroying the world with how pressing the situation is. If they can patch this up right now, the gods have a few millenia to figure out the long-term.

[Jasdoif]

The Dark One's never spoken directly to Redcloak in the 35 years that Redcloak's been his high priest; he seems like the opposite of the micromanaging type. I could easily believe that Redcloak serves as a plenipotentiary (not a word I get to use everyday) in this situation. I mean, this is somewhat less outlandish than a frontarchy (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1017.html)....(Also not a word I get to use everyday)

Similarly, I doubt Thor would question how Durkon gets Redcloak on board with the rift sealing; though Thor and Durkon probably don't expect Redcloak to do anything the Dark One wouldn't agree with.

[dancrilis]

Isn't redcloak's JOB to take the matter to his god, instead of evaluating it himself?


I am going to assume that The High Priest of The Dark One knows the duties and responsibilities of The High Priest of The Dark One well enough to do the job he has decades of experience doing.

[WanderingMist]

Why did the last few strips turn into a discussion between mortals trying to convince each other? I thought this business was a matter between gods, as in the gods talking to each other through their clerics in Godsmoot. Roy's speech was useless there, because he wasn't part of the discussion. I thought Redcloak would have to take the matter to his god and start channeling him so that Dark One and Thor could do their thing. The discussion is supposed to be at god level, isn't it? The clerics were not trying to convince each other at Godsmoot.

I get that redcloak hasn't spoken to his god personally before, but that's not a real obstacle- when the matter calls for it, it can be done. It's not up to RC to evaluate offers from a god to another god.

What do you think?

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html

The Dark One keeps smiting any emissaries that try to directly speak with him. The reason the gods are using Durkon right now is to try to establish any sort of contact at all. And as far as Redclaok is concerned, there is no possible matter which would call for him doing so, as he still believes he wins if either of his plans work.

[Metastachydium]

The Dark One's never spoken directly to Redcloak in the 35 years that Redcloak's been his high priest; he seems like the opposite of the micromanaging type. I could easily believe that Redcloak serves as a plenipotentiary (not a word I get to use everyday) in this situation.

Precisely. Ever since Redcloak has become the Bearer, his god delegated decision making to him and rolled with his decisions.

[The Pilgrim]

Why did the last few strips turn into a discussion between mortals trying to convince each other? I thought this business was a matter between gods, as in the gods talking to each other through their clerics in Godsmoot. Roy's speech was useless there, because he wasn't part of the discussion. I thought Redcload would have to take the matter to his god and start channeling him so that Dark One and Thor could do their thing. The discussion is supposed to be at god level, isn't it? The clerics were not trying to convince each other at Godsmoot.

I get that redcloack hasn't spoken to his god personally before, but that's not a real obstacle- when the matter calls for it, it can be done. It's not up to RC to evaluate offers from a god to another god.

What do you think?

I think that Redcloak will avoid taking the risk of telling about this to his God. TDO could decide to cancel The Plan, and then all the crimes commited by Redcloak would have been in vain.

[Goblin_Priest]

If Redcloak is made aware of the Godsmoot, could he go there, and zot TDO for a vote?

[dancrilis]

If Redcloak is made aware of the Godsmoot, could he go there, and zot TDO for a vote?

No, he has no vote at any Godsmoot (panel 10 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html)).

[Jason]

Precisely. Ever since Redcloak has become the Bearer, his god delegated decision making to him and rolled with his decisions.
Which again raises the question of how committed to The Plan the Dark One really is. What's he doing with all his time if guiding his high priest in The Plan isn't his priority?

[Metastachydium]

Which again raises the question of how committed to The Plan the Dark One really is. What's he doing with all his time if guiding his high priest in The Plan isn't his priority?

It is entirely possible that he is simply pleased with the performance of his high priest and does not have the people skills to know that he should remind the guy of that every now and then.

[understatement]

Being High Priest is as much as a matter of trust as of status: by giving him powerful spells and status for other worshippers to follow him, the Dark One ostensibly trusts that Redcloak will use this power to further his god's interests.

And if he wasn't commited to the Plan, he would've cut off Redcloak from spells a long time ago.

[dancrilis]

Being High Priest is as much as a matter of trust as of status: by giving him powerful spells and status for other worshippers to follow him, the Dark One ostensibly trusts that Redcloak will use this power to further his god's interests.

And if he wasn't commited to the Plan, he would've cut off Redcloak from spells a long time ago.

We don't know that - it is possible that The Dark One doesn't actually really care about the plan, he might be using it as a red herring to distract from his other plans.

For instance here (panel 7) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1171.html) Loki admits to Hel that he is really only there to stop her from cheating - it is possible that with nobody to properly watch him The Dark One is cheating away and that he wants a big obvious target in the world to distract the other gods from his more subtle actions.

[understatement]

We don't know that - it is possible that The Dark One doesn't actually really care about the plan, he might be using it as a red herring to distract from his other plans.

For instance here (panel 7) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1171.html) Loki admits to Hel that he is really only there to stop her from cheating - it is possible that with nobody to properly watch him The Dark One is cheating away and that he wants a big obvious target in the world to distract the other gods from his more subtle actions.

Possibly. I am not sure if it's better or worse that he is intensely focused on a Plan that risks all his followers' souls, or that the soul-risking Plan is just some side plan he drops on his high priests.

[Metastachydium]

We don't know that - it is possible that The Dark One doesn't actually really care about the plan, he might be using it as a red herring to distract from his other plans.

For instance here (panel 7) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1171.html) Loki admits to Hel that he is really only there to stop her from cheating - it is possible that with nobody to properly watch him The Dark One is cheating away and that he wants a big obvious target in the world to distract the other gods from his more subtle actions.

It is funny how this only ever comes up with regard to Big Puple, though. By the same logic, how do we know Thor did not keep much of his plan (there are parts he neglected to elaborate on) from Durkon and he did not send Durkon to Redcloak without much anything to offer without much anything to back up his claims with on purpose, because, say, he needs Redcloak to continue working on the Plan for some nefarious reason he keeps to himself?

[dancrilis]

It is funny how this only ever comes up with regard to Big Puple, though.

It doesn't.

I have suggested (I believe - maybe I just thought about it) that Loki might be using Hilgya as a trap - i.e she convinces the Dwarves to worship Loki and when they die he doesn't contest their deaths with Hel thereby boosting her power and making it more likely that she will survive to the next world (and so where she thinks she is saving the dwarven people from the honour system that the gods effectively bound too in fact she is merely damning them to an eternity of suffering to help Loki help his daughter).

Why it doesn't come up with Thor as much is because Thor is indicated to be a good god - but even then I believe that I have suggested in the past that he might be literal when he says he only needs a drop of purple to take care of the rest - i.e one drop mixed with a bucket of yellow might allow for hundreds of rifts to be sealed and so The Dark One would effectively end up with nothing and no leverage (and he merely didn't feel the need to burden Durkon with that information before sending him to negotiate).

[Fyraltari]

One fringe theory that I like, but only sometimes believe in, is that the Dark One is pulling some kind of con with Tiamat, Rat and Loki, and isn’t as angry as he seems.

It is funny how this only ever comes up with regard to Big Puple, though. By the same logic, how do we know Thor did not keep much of his plan (there are parts he neglected to elaborate on) from Durkon and he did not send Durkon to Redcloak without much anything to offer without much anything to back up his claims with on purpose, because, say, he needs Redcloak to continue working on the Plan for some nefarious reason he keeps to himself?

Because Thor has had much more characterization than the Dark One, meaning his goals and motives are much clearer and so less susceptible to speculation.

[Metastachydium]

It doesn't.

Fair enough, but it crops up more often than in the case of other plot-relevant gods.


I have suggested (I believe - maybe I just thought about it) that Loki might be using Hilgya as a trap - i.e she convinces the Dwarves to worship Loki and when they die he doesn't contest their deaths with Hel thereby boosting her power and making it more likely that she will survive to the next world (and so where she thinks she is saving the dwarven people from the honour system that the gods effectively bound too in fact she is merely damning them to an eternity of suffering to help Loki help his daughter).

Yeah, but that has little bearing on the plot, really.


Why it doesn't come up with Thor as much is because Thor is indicated to be a good god - but even then I believe that I have suggested in the past that he might be literal when he says he only needs a drop of purple to take care of the rest - i.e one drop mixed with a bucket of yellow might allow for hundreds of rifts to be sealed and so The Dark One would effectively end up with nothing and no leverage (and he merely didn't feel the need to burden Durkon with that information before sending him to negotiate).

Yes, you absolutely did that one. I remember it now (what I don't remember is you framing him as a bad guy for it). Thanks for the reminder, I'll try to make sure I never underestimate you again.
Still, the thing that up to UD Thor mostly just seems negligent and dumb, while in UD he suddenly becomes benevolent and wise seems to attract surprisingly few crazy theories despite the fact that we have something to actually work with there.



Because Thor has had much more characterization than the Dark One, meaning his goals and motives are much clearer and so less susceptible to speculation.

Please see above.


One fringe theory that I like, but only sometimes believe in, is that the Dark One is pulling some kind of con with Tiamat, Rat and Loki, and isn’t as angry as he seems.

While I wouldn't say I'd be ready to subscribe to it, this is not that bad indeed.
At any rate, I'm all about more Tiamat (although mainly not in this exact way).

[Fyraltari]

Still, the thing that up to UD Thor mostly just seems negligent and dumb, while in UD he suddenly becomes benevolent and wise seems to attract surprisingly few crazy theories despite the fact that we have something to actually work with there.
There’s only a contradiction if you want to see one. The difference between Thor in UD and Thor before is that in UD, Thor can actively influence things for once.
People’s behavior are context-dependent. There’s a time for screwing around and a time to get serious. UD was serious time.



While I wouldn't say I'd be ready to subscribe to it, this is not that bad indeed.
At any rate, I'm all about more Tiamat (although mainly not in this exact way).

The main reason was that Thor believes that the Dark One discovered the Snarl on his own while according to Redcloak, Rat ratted the gods out after a goblin priest stumble upon Lirian’s Rift[/quote]

Thor May have been simplifying for the sake of [s]panel space efficiency, though.

[Riftwolf]

Also Summon Proxy isn't on the cleric spell list; presumably it's conferred to a High Priest by their God, but the God has to know about it first (from memory, d&d clerics can have their requested spells altered by their God (so if you're a Neutral cleric of Pelor, the DM- I mean your God- can stop you preparing so many Create Undeads), so it might be that on the days when the Gods need their High Priest to cast Summon Proxy, it replaces their domain slot or whatever).
The other Gods can't tell TDO about Summon Proxy until he reestablishes communications.

[ti'esar]

Because Thor has had much more characterization than the Dark One, meaning his goals and motives are much clearer and so less susceptible to speculation.

Also, the fact that the Dark One is kind of an uncommunicative enigma has been directly brought up in the comic. He doesn't communicate with the other gods (admittedly, the stated reasons are pretty understandable here) or even with his own high priest. That sort of thing understandably breeds speculation.

[Metastachydium]

There’s only a contradiction if you want to see one. The difference between Thor in UD and Thor before is that in UD, Thor can actively influence things for once.
People’s behavior are context-dependent. There’s a time for screwing around and a time to get serious. UD was serious time.

The way I remember it, granting spells (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html) and giving guidance (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html) are the two main modalities via which gods can actually influence things on the Material Plane. Someone who claims to remember every single mortal who ever worshipped him should be more than capable of keeping an eye on the single most important follower they've ever had (and by BRitF, Thor'S either realized that's Durkon, or he is an utter moron) and help them in times of need with the little things he can offer.
So, yes, if we ignore the evidence, there seems to be no contradiction.


The main reason was that Thor believes that the Dark One discovered the Snarl on his own while according to Redcloak, Rat ratted the gods out after a goblin priest stumble upon Lirian’s Rift

Thor May have been simplifying for the sake of panel space efficiency, though.

I'd give Rat a little leeway there. Big Purple found out there is at least one creepy hole in the fabric of the universe he cannot make sense of, and his ”allies” would've just dug themselves even deeper were they not to explain what it is or claim they don't know either.

[Fyraltari]

The way I remember it, granting spells (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html) and giving guidance (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html) are the two main modalities via which gods can actually influence things on the Material Plane. Someone who claims to remember every single mortal who ever worshipped him should be more than capable of keeping an eye on the single most important follower they've ever had (and by BRitF, Thor'S either realized that's Durkon, or he is an utter moron) and help them in times of need with the little things he can offer.
So, yes, if we ignore the evidence, there seems to be no contradiction.
But he does. What more would you expect him to do? He can’t contact Durkon on his own (as evidenced by the fact that he assumed Odin engineered a situation where he could talk to Durkon) and he sent a Storm to warn the order that Durkon had been compromised.

[Metastachydium]

But he does. What more would you expect him to do?

I gave you two examples of him endangering Durkon's life as if it meant nothing to him inBRitF. He could have answered his prayer in some way when he had to take on Malack alone and he could have actually checked what's going on in Bleedingham during Nale's attack and figure out what Durkon needed, granting the spell. If he can remember billions of worshippers, the whole thing would have taken a second or less. But no, he had to contest a soul that was a lost cause (not that UD does not prove he could have tried to lodge an appeal later) in one case and had to go soak his feet in the other.


He can’t contact Durkon on his own (as evidenced by the fact that he assumed Odin engineered a situation where he could talk to Durkon) and he sent a Storm to warn the order that Durkon had been compromised.

Now, did he? That's never been confirmed as far as I remember (please do correct me if it was) and, well, we have precedent for folks reading a bit too much into sudden storms (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html).

[Fyraltari]

I gave you two examples of him endangering Durkon's life as if it meant nothing to him inBRitF. He could have answered his prayer in some way when he had to take on Malack alone
Nohe could not, that fight happened on Adad’s turf not his, and he already got in trouble with the Southern Pantheon for bending the rules in Durkon’s favor on their land.

and he could have actually checked what's going on in Bleedingham during Nale's attack and figure out what Durkon needed, granting the spell. If he can remember billions of worshippers, the whole thing would have taken a second or less. But no, he had to contest a soul that was a lost cause (not that UD does not prove he could have tried to lodge an appeal later) in one case and had to go soak his feet in the other.
You do realize that saying he was busy trying to save a worshipper of his does not help you make the case that he isn’t presented as being benevolent, right?

The Bleedingham fight is trickier, I’ll grant you, but the reason Thor and his aide don’t recognize the spell probably hasn’t something to do with the fact that it’s not a spell they devised, it’s one Durkon created with Malack’s help. I don’t play D&D so I can’t speak with certainty, but it is my understanding that there’s some oddities/disagreement over how Cleric learning spells work exactly.


Now, did he? That's never been confirmed as far as I remember (please do correct me if it was) and, well, we have precedent for folks reading a bit too much into sudden storms (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html).
The storm started the exact moment the Mechane entered the North. Doesn’t look like a coincidence.

[dancrilis]

... what I don't remember is you framing him as a bad guy for it ...
I didn't and I am not doing so here either - gods (whether Thor or The Dark One) can have plans which involve mortals which might not be the full plan.


] Thor mostly just seems negligent and dumb, while in UD he suddenly becomes benevolent and wise seems to attract surprisingly few crazy theories despite the fact that we have something to actually work with there.

Well if you want one:

... we have precedent for folks reading a bit too much into sudden storms (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html).
It is possible that Durkon is right and that the Devas are wrong - Thor could have wanted Durkon to find out about the gates, wanted to keep his reasoning from the Devas and so started a storm while seemingly drunk to meet both requirements.

[Metastachydium]

Nohe could not, that fight happened on Adad’s turf not his, and he already got in trouble with the Southern Pantheon for bending the rules in Durkon’s favor on their land.

I'm pretty sure there is something like the Domain Agreement in place so that gods can give minor signs and stuff to help their clerics praying to them for guidance (I'm not talking about collapsing the pyramid on top of Malack's head, especially since that's not what Durkon asked for). Durkon is on Team Red's turf, after all, and he can cast as normal, as could a Western cleric in the North.
Even more to the point, Tiamat, a major Western goddess can deal out big time prophecies through her chosen left and right, although her chosen set up permanent residence in the Sunken Valley which is in the South. If that's not against the turf rules, neither should giving some hint to an important cleric be.


You do realize that saying he was busy trying to save a worshipper of his does not help you make the case that he isn’t presented as being benevolent, right?

Unless of course he likes the bet more than he tells us and he wants to kill Hel or at least mess up her badly.
On a more serious note, it does conflict with the image of ”wise Thor” either way. Like I said, debating souls was not all that urgent, and even if it was, he could still keep an eye on Durkon or at least have some subordinate do that and notify him if things get shaky. Guy doesn't have his priorities straight.


The Bleedingham fight is trickier, I’ll grant you, but the reason Thor and his aide don’t recognize the spell probably hasn’t something to do with the fact that it’s not a spell they devised, it’s one Durkon created with Malack’s help. I don’t play D&D so I can’t speak with certainty, but it is my understanding that there’s some oddities/disagreement over how Cleric learning spells work exactly.

Durkon mastered it, eventually, and he knew Death Ward even before that. Massed buff spells are not all that rare, either. Thor could have put two and two together if he cared to.



The storm started the exact moment the Mechane entered the North. Doesn’t look like a coincidence.

That's why I linked the strip I linked. That storm also broke out pretty much exactly when Miko caught up with the Order, and it stopped abruptly when she and the Order made peace agreed to a temporary cessation of hostilities. Also, unless dancrilis here is to be believed, it was a complete coincidence.


I didn't and I am not doing so here either - gods (whether Thor or The Dark One) can have plans which involve mortals which might not be the full plan.

K, then.



Well if you want one:

It is possible that Durkon is right and that the Deva's are wrong - Thor could have wanted Durkon to find out about the gates, wanted to keep his reasoning from the Deva's and so started a storm while seemingly drunk to meet both requirements.

Heh. Now we're talking. (But that also means Thor is an expert at yanking everybody's chains around him. Ominous!)

[tomandtish]

As I commented in another thread, Red Cloak may have the same problem we have. We (the readers) actually don't KNOW all that much about what is actually true. We know there are rifts/gates, and thanks to one particular comic we know there's something nasty behind it. But everything else we know is second hand. Told to us by those who may not understand what is happening or may have hidden motives.

Red Cloak knows what his God has told him, which may not be correct (either intentionally or otherwise). Thor talked to Durkon, but I notice Thor never said anything that would account for seeing a world inside a rift (as Blackwing did).... So does Thor not know everything either or is he holding some back for some reason?

[TooSoon]

Why did the last few strips turn into a discussion between mortals trying to convince each other? I thought this business was a matter between gods, as in the gods talking to each other through their clerics in Godsmoot. Roy's speech was useless there, because he wasn't part of the discussion. I thought Redcload would have to take the matter to his god and start channeling him so that Dark One and Thor could do their thing. The discussion is supposed to be at god level, isn't it? The clerics were not trying to convince each other at Godsmoot.

I get that redcloack hasn't spoken to his god personally before, but that's not a real obstacle- when the matter calls for it, it can be done. It's not up to RC to evaluate offers from a god to another god.

What do you think?

I mean assumedly the Dark One is watching what is going on now, so if he has any views about it he will express them to RC.

[Fyraltari]

I'm pretty sure there is something like the Domain Agreement in place so that gods can give minor signs and stuff to help their clerics praying to them for guidance (I'm not talking about collapsing the pyramid on top of Malack's head, especially since that's not what Durkon asked for).
Source? The Domain Agreement is described here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html) and all it says with regards to Thor is that he has to let Clerics of other gods use spell related to his Domain. Thor is free to make as many storms as he wants, but on the North. Nothing says he can make minor miracles wherever he wants.

Durkon is on Team Red's turf, after all, and he can cast as normal, as could a Western cleric in the North.
Yes, Durkon can cast as he wishes, but Thor cannot, that's the entire point of the Clerics: the gods put limitation on their own power and act through semi-independent mortal agents.

Even more to the point, Tiamat, a major Western goddess can deal out big time prophecies through her chosen left and right, although her chosen set up permanent residence in the Sunken Valley which is in the South. If that's not against the turf rules, neither should giving some hint to an important cleric be.
The Oracle is using his favored soul powers, granted to him by Tiamat, to cast Divination magic, this is not the same as just speaking aloud like Durkon did.




Unless of course he likes the bet more than he tells us and he wants to kill Hel or at least mess up her badly.
Seeing as he tried to help Loki mend his relationship with her (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1177.html), I doubt that.
On a more serious note, it does conflict with the image of ”wise Thor” either way.
Like I said, debating souls was not all that urgent,
One person risking an eternity of torture seems pretty urgent to me.

and even if it was, he could still keep an eye on Durkon
No he couldn't, the gods are never shown to be able to do several things as one, they don't have any power of ubiquity.

or at least have some subordinate do that and notify him if things get shaky.
From half the cosmos away? Inside the domain of an ennemy goddess?

Guy doesn't have his priorities straight.
Pretty sure he does because I just remembered a thing: Thor was aware of Durkon's prophecy. This means that until Durkon got back to the Dwarven Lands, it was impossible for him to be utterly incapacited or fail to preserve the Planet. What's more since thor needed Durkon to be dead to explain to him what was happening, he may even have been hoping for Durkon to lose a fight at some point.



Durkon mastered it, eventually, and he knew Death Ward even before that. Massed buff spells are not all that rare, either. Thor could have put two and two together if he cared to.
Malack managed to sneak in a deactivation code word without Durkon noticing so I think the magic involved goes beyond "add a line of incantation to the death ward spell to make it multi-target". Magic isn't just saying the name of the spell out loud, you have to look out for stuff like "negative particle wave interference (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html)". And even if Thor could have figured the spell out at the time (which he might, I don't know) it would have been in everybody's best interest, including Durkon if he'd been killed in a relatively low-stake fight, such as a skirmish with the LG away from any Gate, in a major city with at least one friendly Cleric who could have brought him back.





That's why I linked the strip I linked. That storm also broke out pretty much exactly when Miko caught up with the Order, and it stopped abruptly when she and the Order made peace agreed to a temporary cessation of hostilities. Also, unless dancrilis here is to be believed, it was a complete coincidence.
that's hardly the same. For one the Order wasn't involved in cosmic business yet. For twice, the "meaning" of the first storm needed a convoluted interpretation to be explained while the second provided clear evidence that Durkon* ddidn't have Thor's favor anymore since he need a spell to quell it when the real Durkon could have just prayed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0953.html). Just like the Mechane's crewman was praying to Adad (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0952.html).

[dancrilis]

The Oracle is using his favored soul powers, granted to him by Tiamat, to cast Divination magic, this is not the same as just speaking aloud like Durkon did.

The Oracle is not a favoured soul (as far as we know) he is merely an Expert (panel 9 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html)) - how and why he can divine things is unknown (I suspect a template or horrific abuse of the profession skill rules).

[Fyraltari]

The Oracle is not a favoured soul (as far as we know) he is merely an Expert (panel 9 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html)) - how and why he can divine things is unknown (I suspect a template or horrific abuse of the profession skill rules).

We know of three mortals who can make accurate predictions of the future. the Oracle who is a worshipper of Tiamat, one priest of Odin and Sangwaan a worshipper of Rooster. I don't think it's a coincidence.

[dancrilis]

We know of three mortals who can make accurate predictions of the future. the Oracle who is a worshipper of Tiamat, one priest of Odin and Sangwaan a worshipper of Rooster. I don't think it's a coincidence.

Sangwaan we actually have some information on.

Sangwaan is a diviner (a wizard) who also used numerology to make predictions - and who sometimes gets true visions from Rooster.

She is explicitly not an oracle - she is by her own admission not as powerful or as reliable (although she didn't define powerful or reliable).


My assumption is that The Orcale has a custom template, and Sangwaan has a lesser version of that same template - so he can throw out mostly accurate predictions all day (without the ability to avoid them or impact them) and she can occassionally do the same (possibly limited to X times per day/week).

[Metastachydium]

Source? The Domain Agreement is described here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html) and all it says with regards to Thor is that he has to let Clerics of other gods use spell related to his Domain. Thor is free to make as many storms as he wants, but on the North. Nothing says he can make minor miracles wherever he wants. (Â…) The Oracle is using his favored soul powers, granted to him by Tiamat, to cast Divination magic, this is not the same as just speaking aloud like Durkon did. (Â…) Yes, Durkon can cast as he wishes, but Thor cannot, that's the entire point of the Clerics: the gods put limitation on their own power and act through semi-independent mortal agents.


Again, Tiamat does a lot more for the Oracle and he's not a cleric and not even a favoured soul (canonnically he is an Expert directly granted big league visions of the future by his goddess whenever he enters an oracular trance; we only ever see him cast once and he does that with a wand (and using those does not require actual casting provess: Haley is a rogue and she can use wands just fine)).



Seeing as he tried to help Loki mend his relationship with her (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1177.html), I doubt that.

He doesn't really seem to pity Hel (he basically says that she brought the whole thing upon herself). Also, we don't know how genuine his attempt to help is.


One person risking an eternity of torture seems pretty urgent to me.

Except we know lodging appeals later is absolutely possible. „Eternity” in this case would have equalled roughly a few weeks at most. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1170.html)


No he couldn't, the gods are never shown to be able to do several things as one, they don't have any power of ubiquity.

Small scale multitasking is something even the gods cannot do? That's news to me.


From half the cosmos away? Inside the domain of an ennemy goddess?

Scrying from the Outer Planes is cannonically a piece of cake, irrespective of where those scried on are at any given moment. Further, that domai has a door leading to the Astral Plane which is navigable for all. It could be organized with ridiculous ease if someone cared to organize it.


Pretty sure he does because I just remembered a thing: Thor was aware of Durkon's prophecy. This means that until Durkon got back to the Dwarven Lands, it was impossible for him to be utterly incapacited or fail to preserve the Planet. What's more since thor needed Durkon to be dead to explain to him what was happening, he may even have been hoping for Durkon to lose a fight at some point.

I see. „Eh, whatever, worst case scenario, he lives. I better go soak my feet instead of helping.” What a guy! (Also, level draining has good potential for decreasing the future efficacy of folks. And there's still the issue with the pyramid: the vampiric takeover was definitely not something he should have seen as desirable. Moreover, if Thor wanted him dead, rest assured that he would have died a lot earlier.)


Malack managed to sneak in a deactivation code word without Durkon noticing so I think the magic involved goes beyond "add a line of incantation to the death ward spell to make it multi-target". Magic isn't just saying the name of the spell out loud, you have to look out for stuff like "negative particle wave interference (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html)". And even if Thor could have figured the spell out at the time (which he might, I don't know) it would have been in everybody's best interest, including Durkon if he'd been killed in a relatively low-stake fight, such as a skirmish with the LG away from any Gate, in a major city with at least one friendly Cleric who could have brought him back.

And it is perfectly impossible that Durkon (who forgot about the Domain Agreement at some point) has an understanding of magic way too poor to notice the tampering? He's no scholar. He's a field cleric. At any rate, Thor knows what Death Ward is and if he cared to check what's going on, he'd have noticed Durkon is trying to defend himself against negative energy and could have sent something more useful than a Masked Debt Gourd.


that's hardly the same. For one the Order wasn't involved in cosmic business yet. For twice, the "meaning" of the first storm needed a convoluted interpretation to be explained while the second provided clear evidence that Durkon* ddidn't have Thor's favor anymore since he need a spell to quell it when the real Durkon could have just prayed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0953.html). Just like the Mechane's crewman was praying to Adad (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0952.html).

Really? They got themselves involved the moment Elan blew up the Gate and Miko was about bring them to the guy who could actually explain the cosmic stuff to them.

[KorvinStarmast]

I am going to assume that The High Priest of The Dark One knows the duties and responsibilities of The High Priest of The Dark One well enough to do the job he has decades of experience doing. He does. It helps that he got a massive data dump when he donned the cloak.


Precisely. Ever since Redcloak has become the Bearer, his god delegated decision making to him and rolled with his decisions. Yes, and furthermore, he provided Redcloak with "Mission-Type-Orders" that were concise: Don't Screw This Up. Redcloak knew excatly what "this" refers to. The Plan.

To answer the OP: it is Redcloak's job to do as his god directed him to. Pretty sure The Dark One isn't all in on democracy and discussion. He gives orders, his minions carry out their duties.

[Lo'Tek]

Redcloak knows the plan and is perfectly capable of evaluating the matter and in this case rejecting it.

In 1209 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1209.html)

No, no - Any deal that doesn't include deific recognation of our ~

Sadly Durkons diplomacy skills are so bad, he didn't notice that Redcloak was going to tell him what TDO wants and interrupted that very important part with some meaningless "i am authorized to negotiate" blanko, then started to offer other things he believes Redcloak might like.

At that moment Durkon failed the negotiation badly. Redcloak now believes they won't get the "deific recognation of their ~" and will just be offered "table scraps". This believe is actually deeply ingrained in he faith of TDO, it is an important part of their religion (the goblins just get scraps, the other gods are unjust, ...). Redcloak is convinced that Thor would not accept, if he knew what they want, and that Thors cleric isn't even willing to hear what they ask for just strengthens that believe. So the deal is a no go.

Durkon honestly believed in his "If n I bring it ta Thor as a done deal" interruption. No one with diplomatic skills would take that seriously, it is a figure of speech, the gods will want to re-negotiate if the deal is not ok for them. But more importantly Durkon completely misinterpreted the situation. He noticed he hit a nerve with the "a deal between us mortals" part but instead of listening what RC spills while agitated, he tried to calm RC, to deescalate and return to moderation. Moderation is the "agree to disagree and no deal" situation they started with.

Now if Durkon had given Redcloak the chance to make his demand and checked that with Thor, then Thor would accept, like Durkon promised. That "deific recognation of ~" is probably a given when they want to use the purple color to seal the snarl and Thor would be amazed that they got such a good deal, since he already recognizes TDO as an equal anyway.

However for RC the fist part of being recognized as equal would be to allow them to voice their needs and listen carefully.

Redcloak is perfectly capable of evaluating "the offer" and evaluated it correctly: it is not enough, it just some scraps and belittlement, mostly about mortal goblins in this world, and not at all what TDO wants according to the plan.

[Bilbo Baggins]

At this point, I don't Redcloak cares about the Dark One's opinion. We know now he's been working without any direct guidance from the Dark One, and his sunk cost fallacy has been shown repeatedly. He's so committed to the plan that he'd trust his own judgment over the Dark One's. Even if the Dark One directly told him to stop, he wouldn't abandon the plan. In the hypothetical situation where the Dark One comes around to help the other gods, the conversation would be something like:

Dark One: "I came to an agreement with the other gods, together we can stop the snarl and then they'll give the goblins a fair place in the world"
:redcloak: : "The gods are so scared of my plan now that they're intervening to send a fake message to trick me (or they compromised the Dark One and forced him to give me that mesage), I have to go through with this!"

Then when the Dark One takes away Redcloak's spells (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html) the next day to show he means business:
:redcloak: : "The Dark One's in trouble, the other gods are blocking his influence on the world! As a last ditch effort to strike back I'll release the snarl now, ritual or no ritual. I, Miko Miyazaki Redcloak, now fulfill the divine destiny that the Twelve Gods Dark One has revealed to me!"

Or, y'know, something like that.

[ElderSage]

"The gods are so scared of my plan now that they're intervening to send a fake message to trick me (or they compromised the Dark One and forced him to give me that mesage), I have to go through with this!"

And don't forget what is probably at this point some rampant communication (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) issues (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1206.html)...

Which is to say that at this point, if out of the blue, Redcloak suddenly received a message (or even divine visit!) from his god saying something along the lines of:


"Hey, y'know that Plan with a capital P that [SoD... "stuff"...] happened for, and we've been working on for maybe half a century? Well, turns out that there's a lot of godly issues going on that I wasn't aware of, thanks to being a new god, so we're going to work together with the rest of the gods to seal away the Snarl. Mmkay?"

Redcloak would probably be perfectly justified in assuming that: a) a god could totally do that (they probably could) and that b) a god is doing that, considering that the only communication he's directly gotten from his god in fifty years of working as the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle was passed through another goblin, who also got way more information and words from the Dark One than Redcloak did, and consisted of a grand total of seven words that pretty much amounted to "the Plan must succeed".

Then, again, you're probably right as well in that Redcloak might try to self-justify continuing the plan, even if his god tells him not to do it. Just thought I should point out that there's pretty legitimate reasons to assume it wasn't actually his god. :smallsmile:

[Riftwolf]

TDO calling Redcloak by his real name would probably be enough to shut him up, at least temporarily.

[Lemarc]

He does. It helps that he got a massive data dump when he donned the cloak.

Yes, and furthermore, he provided Redcloak with "Mission-Type-Orders" that were concise: Don't Screw This Up. Redcloak knew excatly what "this" refers to. The Plan.

To answer the OP: it is Redcloak's job to do as his god directed him to. Pretty sure The Dark One isn't all in on democracy and discussion. He gives orders, his minions carry out their duties.

Yes. The existing evidence, what little there is, suggests TDO is as all-in on the plan as Redcloak, or more so. "The Plan must continue. The Plan must continue. The Plan must continue. The Plan must continue." It took the imminent death of Right-Eye to snap Redcloak out of that trance.