Any advice for what to play?

[Trandir]

Context: 4 PCs of 5th level will form a party to go into the underdark. We get there via wild magic so anything, absolutely anything ever made by wizard of the coast is fair game, including UA. But no homebrew.

Party:
• Barbarian 5 (plans to multiclass into rogue at 6th, 7th or 9th level and he has still to decide which one)
• Fighter 3/ life cleric X
• Necromancer 2/ Fiend warlock X

For ability scores we get 27 point buy and for starting gear we get the class and background equipment, but the gold from the BG is multiplied by 5.

So. Any advice on what class, race and other choices to make?

Edited

Update:

Despite the fact that during session 0 our DM told us that he would have ruled everything RAW. Today very, close to the session 1, I discovered that he uses critical fumbles. I absolutely hate the concept and even more the fact that he never mentioned it and resigned from the campaign.

Thanks for all the help and I but I am mortified that it was all for nothing.

[Man_Over_Game]

Context: 4 PCs of 5th level will form a party to go into the underdark. We get there via wild magic so anything, absolutely anything ever made by wizard of the coast is fair game, including UA. But no homebrew.

Party:
• Barbarian 5 (plans to multiclass into rogue at 6th, 7th or 9th level and he has still to decide which one)
• Fighter 3/cleric X
• Necromancer 2/ Fiend warlock X

For ability scores we get 27 point buy and for starting gear we get the class and background equipment, but the gold from the BG is multiplied by 5.

So. Any advice on what class to pick?

Your team is pretty tanky. I'd probably say something squishy, maybe something that uses Dexterity. Like a Ranger, Monk or a Wizard.

If you're going for an Underdark campaign, there's nothing that beats a Gloomstalker.

[Trandir]

Your team is pretty tanky. I'd probably say something squishy, maybe something that uses Dexterity. Like a Ranger, Monk or a Wizard.

If you're going for an Underdark campaign, there's nothing that beats a Gloomstalker.

Ok, makes sense. What race would be better suited for this Gloomstalker?

[Corran]

Ok, makes sense. What race would be better suited for this Gloomstalker?
Humans are pretty good. That extra feat can be quite useful (I'd suggest xbow expert to start with, followed by sharpshooter).

[Man_Over_Game]

Ok, makes sense. What race would be better suited for this Gloomstalker?

Hard to go wrong with Wood Elf. Covers pretty much all of your bases.

[Trandir]

Humans are pretty good. That extra feat can be quite useful (I'd suggest xbow expert to start with, followed by sharpshooter).


Hard to go wrong with Wood Elf. Covers pretty much all of your bases.

Ah yes the martial conundrum: go with vhuman or literally any other race?

[Edea]

Careful with gloomstalker; if everyone else in your party has Darkvision, they won't be able to see you either.

[Warlush]

I'd say Kobold. You're frontliners will give you advantage %100 of the time and you'll never be in sunlight.

[Mutazoia]

I would suggest something a little more versatile, such as Spore Druid. You can get up front if you need to, or you can hang back and lob spells. The extra necrotic damage to any target within 10' of you, extra poison damage to melee attacks, as well as the temp HP is nothing to sneer at.

[Kane0]

Roll a d8 for the classes not already taken.

[Trandir]

I'd say Kobold. You're frontliners will give you advantage %100 of the time and you'll never be in sunlight.

Isn't the ack tactic a bit wasted on a gloom stalker in the underdark?


I would suggest something a little more versatile, such as Spore Druid. You can get up front if you need to, or you can hang back and lob spells. The extra necrotic damage to any target within 10' of you, extra poison damage to melee attacks, as well as the temp HP is nothing to sneer at.

Mmmmmh. That's an intresting one thanks for the advice

[Eldariel]

Given how little spellcasting the party has, I'd definitely say a full caster would be by far the greatest asset to the party. Bard or Druid would fit the best though a Wizard wouldn't be amiss either (indeed, two Wizards do empower one another in a way in giving each other spells to learn). Next best would indeed be a Ranger or a Paladin but I'd say Lore Bard or Shepherd Druid would be the best thing: both are force multipliers for melee combatants, give access to new spell lists for the party and open up effects not currently accessible while also being quite skilly and filling in there.

[Trandir]

Little update: the cleric has chosen the life domain and wants to stay in the backline as long as he can.

Not sure if this changes what the choice should be but here it is

[Friv]

Little update: the cleric has chosen the life domain and wants to stay in the backline as long as he can.

Not sure if this changes what the choice should be but here it is

Fighter is an odd choice for a backliner - are they going with archery?

Anyway, if that's the case you've got a Barbarian frontliner, presumably one that's planning to reckless attack their sneak attacks so won't need too much flanking. You've got a midliner who's going to be able to recover from a lot of hits between their necromancy and their fiend warlockry, so while they won't be on the front lines they're going to be able to handle a midline role. And you've got a backline healer who is presumably using ranged attacks, but can survive getting ambushed from time to time.

Fast and evasive seems like it's still the best option. I'd say that Gloomstalker Ranger or Lore Bard are still the best choices for party support, depending on if you want to support by being a sneaky ambusher or by having the spells and buffs.

[Trandir]

Fighter is an odd choice for a backliner - are they going with archery?

Anyway, if that's the case you've got a Barbarian frontliner, presumably one that's planning to reckless attack their sneak attacks so won't need too much flanking. You've got a midliner who's going to be able to recover from a lot of hits between their necromancy and their fiend warlockry, so while they won't be on the front lines they're going to be able to handle a midline role. And you've got a backline healer who is presumably using ranged attacks, but can survive getting ambushed from time to time.

Fast and evasive seems like it's still the best option. I'd say that Gloomstalker Ranger or Lore Bard are still the best choices for party support, depending on if you want to support by being a sneaky ambusher or by having the spells and buffs.

Yup I know the party composition is not really common. And that's all good advice.

That said what about bringing something weird to the table? Armorer artificier?

[nickl_2000]

I would personally look at Druid. Having battlefield control can be super helpful when there are undead out there to gum up the battlefield. You can set it up so the skeleton archers are protected, or put in a chokepoint that zombies can hold out while the rest of you rain death on the field.

The question is which one...
Shepherd Druid would help the necromancer and make the battlefield even more crazy.
Moon Druid is the ultimate swiss army knife.
Personally I would go Wildfire Druid because it looks fun.

[Trandir]

I would personally look at Druid. Having battlefield control can be super helpful when there are undead out there to gum up the battlefield. You can set it up so the skeleton archers are protected, or put in a chokepoint that zombies can hold out while the rest of you rain death on the field.

The question is which one...
Shepherd Druid would help the necromancer and make the battlefield even more crazy.
Moon Druid is the ultimate swiss army knife.
Personally I would go Wildfire Druid because it looks fun.

Wait a second. How is the necromancer supposed to create undead? Warlock doesn't get the spell and the wizard levels are too low to get animate dead

[Edea]

Wait a second. How is the necromancer supposed to create undead? Warlock doesn't get the spell and the wizard levels are too low to get animate dead

Mystic Arcanum (6th).

[CTurbo]

All UA is available? I'd go UA Revised Gloom Stalker Ranger to level 5, 7, or 8, and then jump over to Druid.

Archery would probably be best, but not mandatory.

Wood Elf or Goblin would be best bets IMO.

[cutlery]

Gloomstalker or Gloomstalker x/ Assassin 3 is made for the Underdark.

Go ranged, pick archery style, and aim for (ha ha) sharpshooter, more to eliminate cover as a problem (and increase range) than to take the -5 to hit +10 to damage; though that will be situationally useful.

I'd be pretty tempted to go straight gloomstalker til 11th; they're pretty great, and the darkvision and limited invisibility they get at 3rd is perfect for the underdark.

If you dip rogue, take expertise with stealth and possibly survival, if no one else has it. Cunning action hides in combat with multiple ranged attacks is great.

Especially when you are effectively invisible to creatures relying on darkvision.

Oh, and look into class feature variants; some of the base ranger stuff is really bad, but this is better (and UA): https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/UA-ClassFeatures.pdf

[Trandir]

All UA is available? I'd go UA Revised Gloom Stalker Ranger to level 5, 7, or 8, and then jump over to Druid.

Archery would probably be best, but not mandatory.

Wood Elf or Goblin would be best bets IMO.

Yup all UA is aviable. And revised and gloom stalker is a pretty bad idea, and the deep stalker has a weird wording.


Gloomstalker or Gloomstalker x/ Assassin 3 is made for the Underdark.

Go ranged, pick archery style, and aim for (ha ha) sharpshooter, more to eliminate cover as a problem (and increase range) than to take the -5 to hit +10 to damage; though that will be situationally useful.

I'd be pretty tempted to go straight gloomstalker til 11th; they're pretty great, and the darkvision and limited invisibility they get at 3rd is perfect for the underdark.

If you dip rogue, take expertise with stealth and possibly survival, if no one else has it. Cunning action hides in combat with multiple ranged attacks is great.

Especially when you are effectively invisible to creatures relying on darkvision.

Oh, and look into class feature variants; some of the base ranger stuff is really bad, but this is better (and UA): https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/UA-ClassFeatures.pdf

Yup I'd rather go with CFV than revised for ranger. It looks more fun (also the original gloom stalker is a bit weird).

And ok gloom stalker is better. But how much worse would an armorer artificier be compared to it?

[CTurbo]

Yup all UA is aviable. And revised and gloom stalker is a pretty bad idea, and the deep stalker has a weird wording.



Yup I'd rather go with CFV than revised for ranger. It looks more fun (also the original gloom stalker is a bit weird).

And ok gloom stalker is better. But how much worse would an armorer artificier compared to it?


Why is Revised and Gloom Stalker a bad idea?

The UA Revised Ranger is really strong, and any specific setting is perfect for Rangers.

I actually agree with whoever said going straight Gloom Stalker to 11 being a pretty good choice especially in the underdark.

[Trandir]

Why is Revised and Gloom Stalker a bad idea?

The UA Revised Ranger is really strong, and any specific setting is perfect for Rangers.

I actually agree with whoever said going straight Gloom Stalker to 11 being a pretty good choice especially in the underdark.

Cause gloom stalker doesn't provide extra attack and revised ranger gets the extra attack as conclave feature.

[cutlery]

And ok gloom stalker is better. But how much worse would an armorer artificier compared to it?

Worse at what? The gloomstalker is effectively invisible to the majority of enemies you'll face in the UD when in darkness (not dim light, but still), unless a party member is carrying a torch (and if so, stay out of the torch's range.

Otherwise, very different spell lists and abilities. The +2 archery style is pretty strong if you'll go ranged, which they artificer won't get. You'll probably be doing more damage with a bow than an armorer's lightning launcher, too, and can pair archery style with sharpshooter (and, if in darkness, advantage because they can't see you).

The gloom stalker also gets proficiency with wisdom saves at 7th.

Depending on which underdark module you'll be playing, getting lost is a potential issue. Rangers can completely mitigate that with their favored terrain/natural explorer.

Gloomstalker is pretty much an archetype made for the Underdark.

That said I dislike nearly everything Eberron and haven't liked any permutation of the artificer, so I'm not the person to ask.

Re: extra attack, the Deep Stalker conclave (in the 2016 revised UA) offers extra attack, but I still think the gloomstalker (from Xanathar's) with the base ranger is good enough, and tack on the variant rule (2019) options to that. I wouldn't try blending the 2016 revised ranger and the 2019 variant ranger stuff.

Unless you'd really like the revised favored enemy rules, perhaps; but I think there is a reason that didn't make it into Xanathar's.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Regardless of what you play, take one of the background feature variants (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/OotA_CharacterBackgrounds.pdf) from Out of the Abyss. Deep Delver is perfect for a Ranger.


I'll also agree that Gloom Stalker 11 is a superb choice, regardless of your party's ability to see you. Keep in mind that if opponents rely on darkvision you'll always have advantage to attack, so Sharpshooter is totally worth it. This also makes anything that can pick up Elven Accuracy absolutely amazing, Aereni Wood Elf from Eberron: Rising from the Last War is especially good (replaces Elf Weapon Training with proficiency in any one skill or tool and doubles your proficiency bonus with that one). Variant Human is also a very strong choice since you can start with both Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter. Goblin can hide or dash as a bonus action, but a Wood Elf with Rogue 2 is better off. I'd probably take Ranger 5 into Rogue 2 and then Fighter 2, then maybe take one of those to 3rd or 4th, then resume taking Ranger.

Is there anything that says you can't combine UA's? Why not use Revised Ranger (https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_RevisedRanger.pdf) and make it better with class feature variants (https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/UA-ClassFeatures.pdf)? Assuming all of the other non-Beastmaster archetypes still get Extra Attack with Revised Ranger, otherwise your DM needs to make up a 5th level feature for each of those. Take the spellcasting improvements from the CFV but leave the rest behind since Revised Ranger's features are better.

[Trandir]

Worse at what? The gloomstalker is effectively invisible to the majority of enemies you'll face in the UD when in darkness (not dim light, but still), unless a party member is carrying a torch (and if so, stay out of the torch's range.

Otherwise, very different spell lists and abilities. The +2 archery style is pretty strong if you'll go ranged, which they artificer won't get. You'll probably be doing more damage with a bow than an armorer's lightning launcher, too, and can pair archery style with sharpshooter (and, if in darkness, advantage because they can't see you).

The gloom stalker also gets proficiency with wisdom saves at 7th.

Depending on which underdark module you'll be playing, getting lost is a potential issue. Rangers can completely mitigate that with their favored terrain/natural explorer.

Gloomstalker is pretty much an archetype made for the Underdark.

That said I dislike nearly everything Eberron and haven't liked any permutation of the artificer, so I'm not the person to ask.

Re: extra attack, the Deep Stalker conclave (in the 2016 revised UA) offers extra attack, but I still think the gloomstalker (from Xanathar's) with the base ranger is good enough, and tack on the variant rule (2019) options to that. I wouldn't try blending the 2016 revised ranger and the 2019 variant ranger stuff.

Unless you'd really like the revised favored enemy rules, perhaps; but I think there is a reason that didn't make it into Xanathar's.

Ok. So I might have forgotten a "be". But I was asking how much worse the armorer artificer would be compared to the gloom stalker. It is obviously worse as it's hard to beat something with a strong albeit niche feature in a setting where "niche" is pretty much the norm.

Yup I know. I am happy with the CFV.

Now the question is: what race and if not Vhuman the order of the feats. I'm going ranged as a good clichè ranger does.



Regardless of what you play, take one of the background feature variants (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/OotA_CharacterBackgrounds.pdf) from Out of the Abyss. Deep Delver is perfect for a Ranger.

Absolutely



I'll also agree that Gloom Stalker 11 is a superb choice ... snip snap....


Ye I'm probably going to go full ranger. The question is then: what race and the next one is if I won't choose Vhuman what would be the better feat order?



Is there anything that says you can't combine UA's? ... snip snap...

I say that. That UA is dead, and it's better to not disturb the dead to make chimeras

[CTurbo]

Cause gloom stalker doesn't provide extra attack and revised ranger gets the extra attack as conclave feature.

Eh I would assume extra attack at level 5 for any non-beastmaster "conclave"

Revised Ranger is OP, but if you want to stick to CFV, that's fine too.

For race I would look at Wood Elf, Goblin, or even Drow if you really want to abuse Sharpshooter.

[cutlery]

Now the question is: what race and if not Vhuman the order of the feats. I'm going ranged as a good clichè ranger does.


Wood elf ain't bad for the move speed; Eladrin variant for the free fey step at level 1 (with short rest recharge!) is really cool and fits nicely with the theme. High elf for the free cantrip might be really handy, as you won't get one. Booming blade might be what I went with so you can lock an attacker in place and get away. Shocking grasp may be more useful, though.

OTOH, if you go Vhuman you can take the Fey touched feat to get misty step once per day, plus a single level 1 divination or enchantment spell; I'd take Gift of Alacrity if the Wildemont stuff is available for a 1d8 to initiative rolls for 8 hours every day; and fits the theme.

If not that, Identify, hex, and hideous laughter are decent choices, but don't really fit the theme.

Drow is pretty nice, too (some more free spells once per long rest), and you probably won't be running in to a lot of daylight. Darkvision of 150 feet (with gloomstalker feature) doesn't suck.

[Trandir]

Eh I would assume extra attack at level 5 for any non-beastmaster "conclave"


Eh I wouldn't. The revised renger is supposed to only work with its revised conclaves



Revised Ranger is OP, but if you want to stick to CFV, that's fine too.


Debatble. It's front loaded but the late game features are as trash as always, it's still a big step foward compared to PHB ranger since it will be dragged by those early level features.



For race I would look at Wood Elf, Goblin, or even Drow if you really want to abuse Sharpshooter.

Thanks for the advice


Wood elf ain't bad for the move speed; Eladrin variant for the free fey step at level 1 (with short rest recharge!) is really cool and fits nicely with the theme. High elf for the free cantrip might be really handy, as you won't get one. Booming blade might be what I went with so you can lock an attacker in place and get away. Shocking grasp may be more useful, though.

OTOH, if you go Vhuman you can take the Fey touched feat to get misty step once per day, plus a single level 1 divination or enchantment spell; I'd take Gift of Alacrity if the Wildemont stuff is available for a 1d8 to initiative rolls for 8 hours every day; and fits the theme.

If not that, Identify, hex, and hideous laughter are decent choices, but don't really fit the theme.

Drow is pretty nice, too (some more free spells once per long rest), and you probably won't be running in to a lot of daylight. Darkvision of 150 feet (with gloomstalker feature) doesn't suck.

Any variation of elf is nice, yes, there even are a lot of variants in the plane shifts expansions. If I take one of those the 4 main uses for the ASI are: Elven Accuracy, Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert. And I can't decide about the order there


I feel like the Vhuman feat should be xbow expert and sharpshooter. What's the point of 600 ft of range if you can only see in 60?

[Corran]

I feel like the Vhuman feat should be xbow expert and sharpshooter. What's the point of 600 ft of range if you can only see in 60?
Not only that (because you could always go with something like a drow for 150 ft darkvision if gloom stalker). It's also that as a gloom stalker you dont really mind getting close to where the main fighting is taking place, since even if you are attacked it's done with disadvantage, and also since you can move away without taking opportunity attacks (due to not being seen, at least most of the time). And since you can get advantage on your attacks without necessarily having to go out of your opponent's range of darkvision anyway, for all these reasons, sacrificing range is not as important as it would be to other ranged builds. So shorter range by sticking with a hand crossbow is not much of a drawback. And what's the benefit? Another attack, but with advantage and sharpshooter (-5/+10) and eventually with the level 11 feature backing it as well. I'd spend a feat for that trade most of the time, in which case vhuman makes a lot of sense (though increased speed from a wood elf -and fey ancestry to a lesser extent, are tempting too).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you can use literally any WotC content, use the character creation rules from Mythic Odysseys of Theros which gives every character a supernatural gift at 1st level. There's a list of nine such gifts, or you can gain a feat instead. It also has a piety score system that gives you access to certain spells depending on which deity you worship and your piety level. I don't realistically expect any DM to allow this unless they're using that setting, or giving every character access to it, so the below suggestions are under the assumption that you didn't use this to gain a feat.


For a Gloom Stalker's race choice and feat arrangement, I'd consider it as follows:

1st choice: Aereni Wood Elf from Eberron: Rising from the Last War, it replaces a redundant feature of the PHB Wood Elf with a free skill or tool proficiency and expertise in that one. First ASI is Elven Accuracy for +1 Dex. Start with Dex 15+2+1, Con 14, Wis 15+1, a 10 in one of your other stats, and the rest are 8's. You have Darkvision 90 ft., and nobody can use Darkvision to see you. If your party has a light source just run out of range of that and you have advantage on your attacks, as though you're invisible. Your next ASI should be Sharpshooter, given how often you'll have advantage that -5/+10 is going to come in handy, and you don't want range spoiling your advantage. The 12th level ASI is a long ways off, but if you get a magic hand crossbow then Crossbow expert is pretty good for a bonus action attack every round, otherwise Dex 20 isn't bad.

2nd choice: Goblin if not multiclassing for Cunning Action. Being able to hide or disengage as a bonus action is going to do more to keep you alive than anything else, remember to hide at the end end of your turn so nobody swings back at you. First ASI is Sharpshooter, as above you can get advantage to hit from normal darkness alone. I'd skip Crossbow Expert since it competes for your bonus action. In this case I'd start Dex 15+2, Con 15+1, Wis 15, 8's in everything else, and at 8th level put +1 in Dex and Wis.

3rd choice: Variant Human only if you want to start with both Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert. You'll only have Darkvision 60 ft., so when shooting from the dark be mindful of how far away opponents are from you, if they're not within any light sources. In this case I'd go Dex 15+1, Con and Wis 14 and 15+1 depending on which you prioritize higher, a 10 in another stat and the other two 8's.

[Trandir]

Ye we can use anything from all sources but the character creation has no variant rule. I could take the satyr, or a subclass from Theros but not the boons.

And there the choices are: vhuman for just the DPS and "complete build" at 4th level, Goblin to avoid multiclassing and I guess with nimble escape you can also avoid xbow expert sice it would otherwise clog your BA, and elf for the highest possible accuracy but also longest time before getting the build online.

Food for thought

[Ertwin]

Shadow Monk. You're in the Underdark. When you hit level 6, you'll basically be able to misty step at will.

[Mutazoia]

Wait a second. How is the necromancer supposed to create undead? Warlock doesn't get the spell and the wizard levels are too low to get animate dead

Animate Dead is only a 3rd level spell, so the wizard should have access to it by 5th level. A Spore Druid gets it for free at level 5, and at level 6 gets the ability to raise spore zombies as a reaction. If you wanted to go down the necromance route yourself I would suggest checking out this build by Nerdarchy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ71u2PK9bo). If not you can stick with druid up to lvl 14 at least to get Fungal body (Assuming the game goes that far, of course).

At 14th level, the fungal spores in your body alter you: you can’t be blinded, deafened, frightened, or poisoned, and any critical hit against you counts as a normal hit instead, unless you’re incapacitated.

I still think having the versatility of the Druid spell casting for back row antics and being able Wild Shape and play around in the front row when needed will be a big help. Not only that, Druids make damn good off-healz. If you don't play with the nerfed version, Healing Spirit is one hell of an OP heal spell. Drop it on one of your front-liners and auto heal for 1D6 (no action needed to activate). On their turn they start inside the Healing spirit and heal 1D6. You can movie it around as needed, so I can follow and pocket your tank. And let's not forget the Conjure Animals (or Elementals at higher levels) cheese to bolster your ranks or clog a hallway when needed. Although Shepard Druid would be better for the conjuring cheese, personally I feel that the other benefits of the Spore Druid would be more versatile in play. (Shepherd Druid almost guarantees you'll be locked in to the summon cheese role).

[Trandir]

Animate Dead is only a 3rd level spell, so the wizard should have access to it by 5th level. A Spore Druid gets it for free at level 5, and at level 6 gets the ability to raise spore zombies as a reaction. If you wanted to go down the necromance route yourself I would suggest checking out this build by Nerdarchy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ71u2PK9bo). If not you can stick with druid up to lvl 14 at least to get Fungal body (Assuming the game goes that far, of course).

At 14th level, the fungal spores in your body alter you: you can’t be blinded, deafened, frightened, or poisoned, and any critical hit against you counts as a normal hit instead, unless you’re incapacitated.

I still think having the versatility of the Druid spell casting for back row antics and being able Wild Shape and play around in the front row when needed will be a big help. Not only that, Druids make damn good off-healz. If you don't play with the nerfed version, Healing Spirit is one hell of an OP heal spell. Drop it on one of your front-liners and auto heal for 1D6 (no action needed to activate). On their turn they start inside the Healing spirit and heal 1D6. You can movie it around as needed, so I can follow and pocket your tank. And let's not forget the Conjure Animals (or Elementals at higher levels) cheese to bolster your ranks or clog a hallway when needed. Although Shepard Druid would be better for the conjuring cheese, personally I feel that the other benefits of the Spore Druid would be more versatile in play. (Shepherd Druid almost guarantees you'll be locked in to the summon cheese role).

This is all useful info buuuuuuut:

At this point I'm making a gloom stalker and I just got to decide the race and feat progresssion as I am not really sure about that;
The one that would need animate dead is the wizard necromancer 2/ fiend warlock X. Which gets neither wizard spells prepared of high enough level nor the spell in the list for the warlock.

[Eldariel]

Gloom Stalker. Archery is optimal. You want to fight at range anyways. Since you fight you need feats so Variant Human is optimal. Pick up Sharpshooter and optionally Crossbow Expert. Max out Dex and kill the **** out of anything that so much as dares to exist. Abuse your Darkvision immunity for advantage in darkness. Pick up Goodberry, Absorb Elements and Hunter's Mark. On level 2, Pass without Trace and Silence. At the end of each day, convert all your remaining slots into Goodberries for next day healing. That's about all you need to know.

[nickl_2000]

This is all useful info buuuuuuut:

At this point I'm making a gloom stalker and I just got to decide the race and feat progresssion as I am not really sure about that;
The one that would need animate dead is the wizard necromancer 2/ fiend warlock X. Which gets neither wizard spells prepared of high enough level nor the spell in the list for the warlock.

You are right that the Warlock can't yet, but the Warlock gets

3rd level Spell: Summon Undead Spirit (UA)
5th Level Spell: Dance Macarbe
6th Level Spell: Create Undead


As well as all the other UA Summon spells. All of these get a benefit from Shepherd Druid. Gloom Stalker is a solid choice though, there is nothing wrong with that.

[Trandir]

Update:

During session 0 our DM told us that he woudl have ruled everything RAW. And today very close to the session 1 I discovered that he uses critical fumbles. I absolutely hate the concept and resigned from the campaign.

Thanks for all the help and I but I am mortified that it was all for nothing.

[cutlery]

Any variation of elf is nice, yes, there even are a lot of variants in the plane shifts expansions. If I take one of those the 4 main uses for the ASI are: Elven Accuracy, Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert. And I can't decide about the order there


I feel like the Vhuman feat should be xbow expert and sharpshooter. What's the point of 600 ft of range if you can only see in 60?

I don't think crossbow expert is that important; and you won't have that many ASIs. I wouldn't be too surprised if a DM rules that removal of disadvantage for having a hostile creature within 5' CE only applies to crossbows, too. Crossbow Expert isn't called ranged weapon expert (nor is it called cantrip expert, for folks that try to use it with Eldritch Blast). OTOH, I'd consider using a heavy crossbow if I was going this route, and you'll have even better damage than a longbow. Don't forget that CE and holding a ranged weapon means you can't make useful attacks of opportunity, so attackers can walk up and hit you and move on, nor do you effectively control terrain if there's a caster ally behind you. You've got medium armor and 1d10 hit dice; melee won't end you.

Particularly for enemies that have an AC high enough you wouldn't want to use the -5/+10 from SS; you'll do comparable damage with a rapier, and a gloomstalker isn't that squishy. Dropping a bow or crossbow and drawing a melee weapon can be part of a move action (at least, at most tables), so it's not that big a deal. Alternately, use fey/misty step and vanish into the darkness. Depending on your ranged weapon and whether you've used swift quiver, your melee effectiveness simply isn't that far behind your ranged effectiveness, so using a feat just to keep firing with a ranged weapon seems like a waste.

SS for the range is all you really need; elven accuracy is good, but that's level 8 already, and you might want more points in dexterity.

As for the high range and darkvision; there are tons of tricks there. Have a friend cast light on the first arrow nock, then your subsequent shots aren't with disadvantage. Or, simply engage at 150 feet. That's plenty of range for you to remain effectively invisible and ruin a raiding party's day.

[Corran]

At this point I'm making a gloom stalker and I just got to decide the race and feat progresssion as I am not really sure about that
Changed my mind. I think wood elf (or goblin, if you prefer bonus action disengage over EA, so situationally considerably better defense over a constant decent dpr boost) is an overall better choice than vhuman (specifically for an Underdark campaign). I think that the typical range for blindsight and tremorsense is 60', and a vhuman does not beat that range, and you are in the Underdark (where pressumably fighting things with these senses wont be all that uncommon). And advantage is really important for your build (cause sharpshooter), so I think that's a big benefit that the wood elf (or goblin) has over the vhuman which I had not thought of before (at least for an underdark campaign that is). True, your dpr will lag a little behind against foes without heightened senses for a big part of the game with the wood elf, cause the vhuman has that extra feat, but the wood elf will eventually surpass the dpr of the vhuman eventually (by level 8 you wont be that far off, and by level 12 or 16 you are ahead; dont make me do the math, by level 12 the difference in dpr will be minor anyway). If you decide against crossbow master (which I dont think you should, but I digress), I'd suggest a drow instead of a wood elf, so you can go up to 150' of darkvision (which you can exploit well with a longbow, but not with a hand crossbow) and thus beat the typical(?) range for truesight as well. In short, having advantage at no action economy cost is the foundation of your good dpr, and I think that planning for ways to maintain that advantage is more important than the faster feat progression that a vhuman would give you. Cause being reliable in dealing a good amount of damage is very important for a ranged dpr (that has fewer weaknesses than the average ranged dpr). So between the two, just be a little patient and go with the safer choice (that eventually even gives you better dpr), ie wood elf or goblin. And if no xbow expert for some reason, then pick drow, for the same reason that wood elf (or goblin) is preferable to vhuman (ie more reliable against enemies with truesight, though at significant dpr cost due to not getting xbow expert).

If I were you, and I really wanted to dive into it, I'd try to check the ranges of blindsight, tremorsense and truesight of the various typical Underdark dwellers and also get an rough idea of how frequently I'd expect them to appear. Then I'd have a much better idea of what darkvision range I am aiming at, so that's how I would end up choosing my race (with a choice pending between wood elf and goblin if I decide on 60' - 90' with umbral sight, and that would depend on how adventurous I'd want my build to be, which in turn would probably depend on party composition).

[Trandir]

I don't think crossbow expert is that important; and you won't have that many ASIs. I wouldn't be too surprised if a DM rules that removal of disadvantage for having a hostile creature within 5' CE only applies to crossbows, too. Crossbow Expert isn't called ranged weapon expert (nor is it called cantrip expert, for folks that try to use it with Eldritch Blast). OTOH, I'd consider using a heavy crossbow if I was going this route, and you'll have even better damage than a longbow. Don't forget that CE and holding a ranged weapon means you can't make useful attacks of opportunity, so attackers can walk up and hit you and move on, nor do you effectively control terrain if there's a caster ally behind you. You've got medium armor and 1d10 hit dice; melee won't end you.

Particularly for enemies that have an AC high enough you wouldn't want to use the -5/+10 from SS; you'll do comparable damage with a rapier, and a gloomstalker isn't that squishy. Dropping a bow or crossbow and drawing a melee weapon can be part of a move action (at least, at most tables), so it's not that big a deal. Alternately, use fey/misty step and vanish into the darkness. Depending on your ranged weapon and whether you've used swift quiver, your melee effectiveness simply isn't that far behind your ranged effectiveness, so using a feat just to keep firing with a ranged weapon seems like a waste.

SS for the range is all you really need; elven accuracy is good, but that's level 8 already, and you might want more points in dexterity.

As for the high range and darkvision; there are tons of tricks there. Have a friend cast light on the first arrow nock, then your subsequent shots aren't with disadvantage. Or, simply engage at 150 feet. That's plenty of range for you to remain effectively invisible and ruin a raiding party's day.


Changed my mind. I think wood elf (or goblin, if you prefer bonus action disengage over EA, so situationally considerably better defense over a constant decent dpr boost) is an overall better choice than vhuman (specifically for an Underdark campaign). I think that the typical range for blindsight and tremorsense is 60', and a vhuman does not beat that range, and you are in the Underdark (where pressumably fighting things with these senses wont be all that uncommon). And advantage is really important for your build (cause sharpshooter), so I think that's a big benefit that the wood elf (or goblin) has over the vhuman which I had not thought of before (at least for an underdark campaign that is). True, your dpr will lag a little behind against foes without heightened senses for a big part of the game with the wood elf, cause the vhuman has that extra feat, but the wood elf will eventually surpass the dpr of the vhuman eventually (by level 8 you wont be that far off, and by level 12 or 16 you are ahead; dont make me do the math, by level 12 the difference in dpr will be minor anyway). If you decide against crossbow master (which I dont think you should, but I digress), I'd suggest a drow instead of a wood elf, so you can go up to 150' of darkvision (which you can exploit well with a longbow, but not with a hand crossbow) and thus beat the typical(?) range for truesight as well. In short, having advantage at no action economy cost is the foundation of your good dpr, and I think that planning for ways to maintain that advantage is more important than the faster feat progression that a vhuman would give you. Cause being reliable in dealing a good amount of damage is very important for a ranged dpr (that has fewer weaknesses than the average ranged dpr). So between the two, just be a little patient and go with the safer choice (that eventually even gives you better dpr), ie wood elf or goblin. And if no xbow expert for some reason, then pick drow, for the same reason that wood elf (or goblin) is preferable to vhuman (ie more reliable against enemies with truesight, though at significant dpr cost due to not getting xbow expert).

If I were you, and I really wanted to dive into it, I'd try to check the ranges of blindsight, tremorsense and truesight of the various typical Underdark dwellers and also get an rough idea of how frequently I'd expect them to appear. Then I'd have a much better idea of what darkvision range I am aiming at, so that's how I would end up choosing my race (with a choice pending between wood elf and goblin if I decide on 60' - 90' with umbral sight, and that would depend on how adventurous I'd want my build to be, which in turn would probably depend on party composition).

I once again thank you for the help but if you read the update it has all be for nothing. Still I really alpreciate the effort.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Update:

During session 0 our DM told us that he woudl have ruled everything RAW. And today very close to the session 1 I discovered that he uses critical fumbles. I absolutely hate the concept and resigned from the campaign.

Thanks for all the help and I but I am mortified that it was all for nothing.

I mean, as often as you'd be attacking with advantage that wouldn't really matter all that much, but you do you.

[nickl_2000]

Update:

During session 0 our DM told us that he woudl have ruled everything RAW. And today very close to the session 1 I discovered that he uses critical fumbles. I absolutely hate the concept and resigned from the campaign.

Thanks for all the help and I but I am mortified that it was all for nothing.

I can't speak for others, but personally I'm staying home and not doing all that much so it isn't a big deal to me. Theory Crafting is at least using my brain, compared to watching TV or playing video games, it's overall a net gain.

[Trandir]

I mean, as often as you'd be attacking with advantage that wouldn't really matter all that much, but you do you.

I mean yes it would be a 1 in 400 attacks (but a lot more common for skill checks), but it's the concept that's unacceptable. And the fact that the DM didn't mention a pretty important houserule during session 0.


I can't speak for others, but personally I'm staying home and not doing all that much so it isn't a big deal to me. Theory Crafting is at least using my brain, compared to watching TV or playing video games, it's overall a net gain.

Happy to hear that

[cutlery]

I mean yes it would be a 1 in 400 attacks (but a lot more common for skill checks), but it's the concept that's unacceptable. And the fact that the DM didn't mention a pretty important houserule during session 0.


If you are this upset about the prospect for critical fumbles given you were building a character that would have access to elven tri-vantage basically all the time, I suspect some other houserule would have bugged you, too. Bowing out of a game over that is pretty lame.

Critical fumbles usually work for both sides of the table, anyway.

They're mentioned specifically in the DMG, and the DMG says a DM can choose to give them an effect. That's WoTC going rather out of their way to anticipate what is a rather common interpretation of the rules.


DMG, page 242:

CRITICAL SUCCESS OR FAILURE
Rolling a 20 or a 1 on an ability check or a saving throw doesn't normally have any special effect. However, you can choose to take such an exceptional roll into account when adjudicating the outcome. It's up to you to determine how this manifests in the game. An easy approach is to increase the impact of the success or failure. For example, rolling a 1 on a failed attempt to pick a lock might break the thieves' tools being used, and rolling a 20 on a successful Intelligence (Investigation) check might reveal an extra clue.

[Trandir]

If you are this upset about the prospect for critical fumbles given you were building a character that would have access to elven tri-vantage basically all the time, I suspect some other houserule would have bugged you, too. Bowing out of a game over that is pretty lame.

Critical fumbles usually work for both sides of the table, anyway.

They're mentioned specifically in the DMG, and the DMG says a DM can choose to give them an effect. That's WoTC going rather out of their way to anticipate what is a rather common interpretation of the rules.


DMG, page 242:

CRITICAL SUCCESS OR FAILURE
Rolling a 20 or a 1 on an ability check or a saving throw doesn't normally have any special effect. However, you can choose to take such an exceptional roll into account when adjudicating the outcome. It's up to you to determine how this manifests in the game. An easy approach is to increase the impact of the success or failure. For example, rolling a 1 on a failed attempt to pick a lock might break the thieves' tools being used, and rolling a 20 on a successful Intelligence (Investigation) check might reveal an extra clue.

I consider myself to have a really high level of endurance to crappy houserules. But the thing that I absolutely hate and that makes me lose all respect for a DM is when they make a session 0, are asked multiple times if they use any houserule or variant rules and they still manage to have something pop out later on. That is in my opinion unaccettable