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View Full Version : Considering mixing in some other game concepts with d20 modern for a horror campaign



Logic Cannon
2007-10-31, 10:27 PM
Well it would appear that my hypothetical future gaming group has settled on d20 modern after all (all the same, I'm finding the thread about non-d20 game systems extremely interesting and taking notes on suggestions, so keep it coming if you wish). For a brief peek into my schemes, I'm planning on running a horror campaign set in the end of World War II in the Pacific - all of the characters need some reason to be in the Pacific, on the side of the United States, in 1944-1945. I'm obviously expecting most characters to be in the military, but the doors are open to diplomats, secretaries, nurses, code-breakers, mistresses/wives (hell, even hookers if anyone's interested in it, which I'm not expecting), all kinds of auxiliary staff, intelligence agents, sleazy carpetbaggers/enterprising capitalists, Christian missionaries, and other assorted persons.

There are some elements of other systems that I'd like to incorporate. The first should be fairly simple. I really like the World of Darkness system of morality along with virtues and vices, and how characters who persist in such a horrific environment are prone to developing some mild disorders as they continue down a degenerative moral path. This dovetails nicely with some of the shell shock the military-aligned characters are likely to have experienced prior to the campaign events as well. It should be fairly simple to replace the allegiances system of d20 modern with this system, allowing characters to regain action points (hereby called fate points to keep it more in character with the setting) by indulging in vices and virtues. Before anyone asks, I'm not using WoD as a whole because I find the opposed checks and combat fairly clunky and by not including a clear leveling system WoD gains some laudable character customization at the cost of making it quite difficult to "eyeball" the correct level of enemy resistance to throw at a party. In a horror campaign, I find this an essential tool and I don't feel I can do without it.

On a side note, I'm dropping the reputation and wealth rules. The characters are going to be operating far from any kind of friendly society (or society at all, really) and so won't have recourse to purchasing items or interacting with society at large. Military characters come with standard military kit (provided by Uncle Sam) and any personal effects they wish, and non-military characters will be allowed to use starting wealth to grab what they like to carry on their person.

As the final, and more odd inclusion, I was considering dropping d20 rolling altogether, as the core contention against playing "yet another" d20-related game is that d20 rolls are extremely variable and the degree of exceptional idiocy exemplified by a string of poor rolls strains any kind of believability. In regular D&D I accept this as part of the system, but I don't want my characters in a horror campaign getting killed because of the extremely variable d20 rolls, I want them getting killed because they make poor decisions or simply can't go toe to toe with unearthly horrors and expect to survive.

To this end, I was thinking I'd incorporate something that ran off of more of a bell-curve than the flat randomness of the d20, making exceptional luck at either end less of a problem, and averaging out around the 9-11 range usually. Two d10s seemed the ideal solution, but was lacking the flair I was hoping for in a horror campaign. To that end, I came up with a solution that I feel would achieve both ends: drawing from a tarot deck (as mentioned in one of the games in the earlier thread, and I must confess I was quite enamored with the idea and ran with it).

Now, let me spell out how I planned on making such an idea work. Obviously, the 2d10 system (which, admittedly, results in an average dice roll of 11, rather than 1d20's average of 10.5, but it's close enough for my liking) is fairly similar to drawing from a deck of cards that feature an equal number of cards numbered 1 through 10. However, once you throw in "face" cards, much less the major arcana cards, it gets a lot weirder and less easily balanced. Further, if one is simply going to remove the fancy cards, one may as well just roll 2d10 and get it over with. With that in mind, I conceived of a means of making the system work. When you are prompted to roll a d20, you may choose one of the following options:
1) draw 2 cards from the 'minor' tarot deck. These are the 1-10 cards of various suits. Depending on the actions being taken, you may receive a bonus or penalty (+/-1 depending on suit) for each card. For instance, cards in the suit of swords will offer a +1 bonus each when being used to modify a combat roll, but will suffer a -1 penalty when being pulled to modify a social interaction roll (sense motive/diplomacy/bluff/intimidate), whereas cards from the suit of cups would have the opposite effect (-1 to combat rolls, +1 to social interaction rolls). Add these two together, count in any modifiers, and you've got your d20 roll.
2) draw 1 card from the 'major' tarot deck. These include the "face" cards from various suits as well as all the major arcana. Face cards count as 11s, plus any bonuses/penalties associated with their suits. Major arcana count as their number (ranging from 0, the fool, to 21, the world) but have special effects in given situations, ranging from amazingly helpful to disastrous. For instance, the Tower would cause an immediate critical failure, whereas Death would count as a confirmed critical hit if it was drawn in combat, but an automatic failure if drawn for a saving throw.

In effect, you'd have the option of going for 2d10 with weird side effects or a 0-21 scale with several 11s littered around the middle for especially desperate situations where a larger effective range of numbers, or hope for an automatic success, is worth the significant risk inherent in messing around with the major arcana. It bears noting that with this system implemented, action/fate points would be used to re-draw cards, rather than add an extra D6 to the initial d20 roll. This means you could use your points to re-draw individual cards from your double-draw or, more powerfully, could use them to re-draw major arcana rolls in particularly desperate situations, which is fine by me.

I'm not so smug as to think I've got this all figured out, however. I'm sure there are some problems inherent in this system that I had not yet considered. Further, I'd much prefer to draw all of the cards from a single pile, to keep the players weary of risky situations (like they should be in a horror campaign), as you never know when some nasty major arcana card will get pulled at just the wrong moment. However, I can't devise a system that allows me to use the entire tarot deck in one pile that still keeps an average roll of around 10-11.

Anyways, I thank you fellow gamer nerds for trudging through all of this and I would greatly appreciate your input on these ideas.

BizzaroStormy
2007-10-31, 10:39 PM
sorry but...

Wall of Text
Conjuration
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: S, M
Casting Time: However long it takes to write all that.
Range:Closest Thread
Effect:Mental Damage
Duration:As long as the thread remains up
Saving Throw:See text
Spell Resistance:No

Creats a massive wall of text which expands infinitely horizontally and vertically. Any creature attempting to pass through of view the wall must make a DC 6000 Will save or die. A successful will save results in 40d100 Int, Wis, and Cha drain that cannot be healed through ANY means.

Temp
2007-11-01, 12:27 AM
The Tarot Cards may be a tough sell for other gamers.

1.And dinky +/-1 modifiers aren't worth the time. Crank that up a bit if you really want it to impact the game.

2.To incorporate both concepts into a single system, you might consider using a single deck of cards with all of the non-face cards. Add two face cards, designating each as "auto-fail" or "auto-success." Have players draw two cards for each "roll." If one automatic result comes up, it overrides the other card. If both come up, draw again for a "special effect." Each of the non-face cards will be assigned a "special effect." This would incorporate both concepts simultaneously but you'd need to drop 17 or 19 cards from the deck.

3."Special Effects" should be typed onto a well-organized table that all players can see and become familiar with. If you don't want them to know what possibilities are possible, at least know that there are "Special Effects" present.

I assume the cards will be shuffled between uses.


One thing I find interesting: You want to drop the d20 because it isn't predictable enough. Then you want to basically add it back in with your "face cards" in the bell-curve decks.

Just some thoughts.

Tam_OConnor
2007-11-01, 12:30 AM
Not to knock down the wall of text, but a bell curve (3d6) works pretty darn well in my experience. The tarot drawing, while inventive, seems rather time consuming...

Zincorium
2007-11-01, 12:34 AM
As far as the reputation and wealth systems, it certainly won't break the game if you throw them out, the systems work fairly well for the environment they were designed in but I've seen firsthand how it loses coherence outside of that.

Regarding the degradation of morality and character in a horror campaign, I suggest you take a look at the unearthed arcana Taint rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/taint.htm) and crib from them freely. Some aspects of the system might work, others might not, but it's got a good slew of concepts that might be worth stealing and building in to your own way of doing things.

Oh, and I've actually played a game with the tarot cards instead of dice idea. It's alright, but after the first few games it just seems tacked on and unnecessary, so if that happens have a fallback plan. Oh, and it may seem obvious, but get somebody who's really good at shuffling to mix the cards up occasionally.

Logic Cannon
2007-11-01, 01:26 AM
The Tarot Cards may be a tough sell for other gamers.
Potentially, yeah. I can think of a few that would find it a cool idea, but it does merit some careful consideration.


1.And dinky +/-1 modifiers aren't worth the time. Crank that up a bit if you really want it to impact the game.
Well if the bell-curve is keeping it within spitting distance of an 11, I'd think two +1s could really move your score up. I'm concerned that more substantial benefits/penalties might make suits more important than numbers.


2.To incorporate both concepts into a single system, you might consider using a single deck of cards with all of the non-face cards. Add two face cards, designating each as "auto-fail" or "auto-success." Have players draw two cards for each "roll." If one automatic result comes up, it overrides the other card. If both come up, draw again for a "special effect." Each of the non-face cards will be assigned a "special effect." This would incorporate both concepts simultaneously but you'd need to drop 17 or 19 cards from the deck.
Potentially, but it kinda leaves out the coolness factor of playing with the major arcana.


I assume the cards will be shuffled between uses.
Yes.


One thing I find interesting: You want to drop the d20 because it isn't predictable enough. Then you want to basically add it back in with your "face cards" in the bell-curve decks.
Well, the system would still tend more towards a middle-of-the-road average than a wide 20-point dispersal. The minor deck would average out to an 11 with a concentration in the middle, and the 'major' deck would average out to 10.7 (considering you've got a 0-21 spread and 16 cards worth 11s, you've got a 45% chance of throwing an 11), although it's admittedly less of a bell curve and more of a sharp spike in the middle.


As far as the reputation and wealth systems, it certainly won't break the game if you throw them out, the systems work fairly well for the environment they were designed in but I've seen firsthand how it loses coherence outside of that.
That was my interpretation too. Within the "heroes adventuring within an urban environment with downtime" presumption it seems to work splendidly. Outside of it, though, it makes little sense.


Regarding the degradation of morality and character in a horror campaign, I suggest you take a look at the unearthed arcana Taint rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/taint.htm) and crib from them freely. Some aspects of the system might work, others might not, but it's got a good slew of concepts that might be worth stealing and building in to your own way of doing things.

I messed around with the taint system for a while in an Oriental Adventures campaign I ran. While I consider a variant of it to be a good mechanic for representing corruption incurred from an external source, I don't really see it as being that useful for representing a slow descent into madness coming mostly from within. Thanks for the tip though.


Oh, and I've actually played a game with the tarot cards instead of dice idea. It's alright, but after the first few games it just seems tacked on and unnecessary, so if that happens have a fallback plan. Oh, and it may seem obvious, but get somebody who's really good at shuffling to mix the cards up occasionally.
Yeah, that's my concern too. I'm still trying to hammer out some specifics, but I'd rather have a dull-ish system that works (boring old d20s, or 2d10 maybe) than a flashy one that loses its luster quickly or is pretty unbalanced. As a somewhat-seasoned DM, I'm well-aware of the dangers of changing horses midstream - it throws off all the players and it's generally extremely unpleasant for everyone involved. If I'm going to make the tarot thing work, it's got to work well. It seems as though most doubt it would turn out nicely, so I'm rethinking my earlier commitment to the idea.

Ravyn
2007-11-01, 01:37 AM
Have you considered (2d8+1d6)-2? Slightly higher average, definitely more midweighted, and it covers all numbers from 1 to 20.

Logic Cannon
2007-11-01, 01:54 AM
Figured the tarot card breakdowns deserved a separate listing, in an attempt to consolidate it all into one deck.

Options:
A) Remove all the suit royalty, mix everything else together, draw 2, one at a time. If your first draw is a major arcana, leave it. Otherwise draw another card. If the second card is a major arcana, ignore your first card. Otherwise, add the two together (sounds more complicated than it really is. It basically says 'draw 2, major arcana take precedence. Make sure you don't get two of them'). Average is still an 11 on the nose.

Keeps the average at an 11, with some crazy arcana action thrown in.

B) Leave suit royalty in at a value of 10 each. Otherwise, the same as option A.

Increases the average draw to 12.6, but leaves in suit royalty. Makes players (and monsters!) more successful on average. Not sure how I feel about increasing the average roll by 2, though.


Basically, the tarot idea comes in because the cards themselves have a bit of an odd/mildly spooky reputation around them (which I frankly don't buy into) and the major arcana present opportunities to insert a feeling of fate being somewhat outside the hands of the protagonists, which I feel fits a horror setting. You check for a will save against something and pull the Tower. Well, crap. It would seem your fate is to fail that particular save. On the other hand, fits of spectacular bravery may be met with an opportune draw that allows for an immediate success.

Have you ever played with the Deck of Many Things? Wasn't that fun, if a little nerve-wracking? By drawing from the deck, you were gambling with fate, hoping for huge rewards, but taking some substantial risks. That's the kind of feeling I want with a horror campaign.

Edit: additionally, I feel that fate points become more useful with a drawing system, rather than a rolling system. You can throw off fate, but only by so much. Furthermore, characters have even more reason to play to their virtues and vices in order to recharge some of their points to ensure they've got a better chance of surviving. I'm not planning on taking it easy on them...

Logic Cannon
2007-11-02, 01:53 AM
Have you considered (2d8+1d6)-2? Slightly higher average, definitely more midweighted, and it covers all numbers from 1 to 20.

While I appreciate your insight and agree that the average works out well enough I suppose (10.5, to be precise), I can't see many players being happy with such a system. It's simply too many dice of different types and requires subtracting 2, which piles on oddly with other additions/subtractions/whatever they're already keeping track of.

Edit: posting at 2AM is bad for you. I miscalculated the average. Sorry about that Ravyn.

Dhavaer
2007-11-02, 03:04 AM
Have you looked at Bell Curve Rolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/bellCurveRolls.htm)?

Logic Cannon
2007-11-02, 09:53 AM
Have you looked at Bell Curve Rolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/bellCurveRolls.htm)?

Interesting... my only problem is that I'd generally prefer a system that allows up to a 20, so I don't need to mess with weapon criticals and taking 10 and taking 20.

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-02, 03:01 PM
As the final, and more odd inclusion, I was considering dropping d20 rolling altogether, as the core contention against playing "yet another" d20-related game is that d20 rolls are extremely variable and the degree of exceptional idiocy exemplified by a string of poor rolls strains any kind of believability. In regular D&D I accept this as part of the system, but I don't want my characters in a horror campaign getting killed because of the extremely variable d20 rolls, I want them getting killed because they make poor decisions or simply can't go toe to toe with unearthly horrors and expect to survive.

You know, I find d20 rolling more annoying and lame and stretches believability in D&D type games than horror ones.

If you ever watch horror movies, you can actually see where people lose sanity, roll a one to pick a lock, score a critical hit confirmed with another 20, roll really poorly when shooting open a gas pump so that it sprays gas into the back of the pick-up truck and explodes, killing everyone. Then the survivors in the besieged house watch in horror as their friends' burnt flesh is rended from their bones by the hungry dead. Man I love Romero.