thieves' cant between organizations

[Iampower]

thieves' cant has not been a very big deal in our campaign so far, but i have an idea for a certain pc's quest arc we have been going through. in brief, the group will (hopefully) be involved in a turf war between 3 criminal organizations in the nation they are currently in. i was thinking of having each organization have their own of thieves' cant and making them (or rather the rogue who's backstory this is about) decipher the code of the other 2 organizations.

to be clear, in my world thieves' cant is not a language but more like a cypher used by thieves' guilds to mark areas and share information in public. has anyone else done this? having multiple versions of thieves' cant i mean.

[Fnissalot]

thieves' cant has not been a very big deal in our campaign so far, but i have an idea for a certain pc's quest arc we have been going through. in brief, the group will (hopefully) be involved in a turf war between 3 criminal organizations in the nation they are currently in. i was thinking of having each organization have their own of thieves' cant and making them (or rather the rogue who's backstory this is about) decipher the code of the other 2 organizations.

to be clear, in my world thieves' cant is not a language but more like a cypher used by thieves' guilds to mark areas and share information in public. has anyone else done this? having multiple versions of thieves' cant i mean.

I personally haven't had much to deal with around thieves cant, but Dael Kingsmill on youtube had an interesting take on it sort of inline with what you are discussing (using placement of jewelry to share information in public). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kkG3oEZqF8

[HappyDaze]

I have trouble taking Thieves Cant seriously as it really shouldn't be a class ability at all; not all Rogues should know it, and a character shouldn't have to have the Rogue class to know it (i.e., it should not be some magical language that all members of the class--and no others--magically know like Druidic).

Thieves' Cant would be far better suited to a background feature or something gained from a criminal organization group patron (Eberron book). In either case, but especially in the latter, the particular cant should be specific to the organization that teaches it (although it should be possible to learn others).

[Reynaert]

Agreed, it's presented too much as a completely-unintelligible-by-others secret language when actually it's something more akin to e.g. Cockney Rhyming Slang.

[Iampower]

I personally haven't had much to deal with around thieves cant, but Dael Kingsmill on youtube had an interesting take on it sort of inline with what you are discussing (using placement of jewelry to share information in public). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kkG3oEZqF8

oh! i remember this! yes, this was my inspiration for my interpretation. haven't had an opportunity to implement it until now though.

[OldTrees1]

to be clear, in my world thieves' cant is not a language but more like a cypher used by thieves' guilds to mark areas and share information in public. has anyone else done this? having multiple versions of thieves' cant i mean.

I see Thieves Cant as the training to recognize decipher and create these hidden meanings in normal speech and symbols. Jimmy the Hand (guild thief from the Riftwar Saga) and the Shadow Thieves might use different markings for "Danger ahead" but both are sufficiently trained to be able to decipher the meaning.


I have trouble taking Thieves Cant seriously as it really shouldn't be a class ability at all; not all Rogues should know it, and a character shouldn't have to have the Rogue class to know it (i.e., it should not be some magical language that all members of the class--and no others--magically know like Druidic).

Thieves' Cant would be far better suited to a background feature or something gained from a criminal organization group patron (Eberron book). In either case, but especially in the latter, the particular cant should be specific to the organization that teaches it (although it should be possible to learn others).

Initially I would agree that not all rogues should know Thieves Cant. However then I considered a dungeon guide from a dungeoneer's guild. They would have no formal training in the symbology of the Shadow Thieves, but would have formal training in recognizing symbols about danger that might be marked in dungeons. Thinking back to how I see Thieves Cant, that ability to recognize and decipher hidden messages seems to be applicable. Maybe it is just a problem with the name of the ability?

However yes, just like Sneak Attack, Thieves Cant does not fit all Rogues. I would allow a character to pick up Thieves Cant in place of a language or to pick up a language in place of Thieves Cant.

[Martin Greywolf]

i was thinking of having each organization have their own of thieves' cant and making them (or rather the rogue who's backstory this is about) decipher the code of the other 2 organizations.

to be clear, in my world thieves' cant is not a language but more like a cypher used by thieves' guilds to mark areas and share information in public.

I would presonally call so much bull**** on this one. Putting the cant as class feature issues aside, all the cant is is a language. As such, it is possible to learn it, decipher what words mean from context and so on. If you want people to prevent from learning a language, you need to take some extreme measures, otherwise things will slip through, and someone will figure it out eventually. Within a century kind of eventually.

Cant as cypher has the same set of problems, honestly. If there is a rival organization, they will invest significant amount of resources in figuring yours out, and they will eventually manage it, especially if bribes and turncoats are taken into consideration. Just look at how quickly cyphers had to be changed in WW2.

Your best bet is that there are two parts to knowing cant - part one is the lingo, which everyone knows, even some streetwise guards. Second part is the actual codes and cyphers that your organization knows, and those aren't all that cultural because they have to change relatively often.

[Tanarii]

I have trouble taking Thieves Cant seriously as it really shouldn't be a class ability at all; not all Rogues should know it, and a character shouldn't have to have the Rogue class to know it (i.e., it should not be some magical language that all members of the class--and no others--magically know like Druidic).
It isn't. Neither are. With DM permission, you can select Thieves Can't or Druidic with additional languages gained from race or background, just like Draconic or Sylvan. (Which also explicitly require DM permission.)

[OldTrees1]

Oh, and I should also mention, part of the point of Thieves Cant is for communication between organizations.

If a strange thief wanders into Amn, the Shadow Thieves want the strange thief to be put on notice before an issue arises.

[Edea]

I'd kinda find it amusing it Thieves' Cant was magical.

Like, what if knowing it gave the rogue the message cantrip, along with the ability to use it without any components and the ability to 'encrypt' the message in such a way that anyone 'listening in' magically would get one message, while the rogue's intended recipient would get a different one?

[Unoriginal]

Idea: Thieves' Cant is like the Children of Tamar's language in Star Trek: The Next Generation:


https://youtu.be/4Bb-Af3Dm8E

The meaning is only understandable if you figure out what the sentence is referencing, ex: "Butcher Jim, when he cut his fingers", referencing to a famous trickster who made people believe he accidentally cut his own fingers via sleight of hands as a distraction, meaning a falsehood, a daring bluff, or a scam in-progress.

If the fellow Thieves' Cant speaker don't get it, they have to use other references to explains the details, or use a different reference the other speaker may be more familiar to them that carries the same meaning, ex: "Lolth and the elves", for the scam-in-progress idea above.

[HappyDaze]

It isn't. Neither are. With DM permission, you can select Thieves Can't or Druidic with additional languages gained from race or background, just like Draconic or Sylvan. (Which also explicitly require DM permission.)

I've seen several games where Druidic is not a language that can be selected to learn (aside from taking a level of Druid) but more of a quasi-magical form of communication. Draconic and Sylvan (or even Celestial, Infernal, or Deep Speech) have no such restrictions.

[Iampower]

I would presonally call so much bull**** on this one. Putting the cant as class feature issues aside, all the cant is is a language. As such, it is possible to learn it, decipher what words mean from context and so on. If you want people to prevent from learning a language, you need to take some extreme measures, otherwise things will slip through, and someone will figure it out eventually. Within a century kind of eventually.

Cant as cypher has the same set of problems, honestly. If there is a rival organization, they will invest significant amount of resources in figuring yours out, and they will eventually manage it, especially if bribes and turncoats are taken into consideration. Just look at how quickly cyphers had to be changed in WW2.

Your best bet is that there are two parts to knowing cant - part one is the lingo, which everyone knows, even some streetwise guards. Second part is the actual codes and cyphers that your organization knows, and those aren't all that cultural because they have to change relatively often.
Im not exactly sure what your point is. First you say the idea is stupid. But then you give pretty much the same idea anyway?

[Naanomi]

Edited: a few monsters know Thieves’ Cant in their language sections so... a ranger could learn them if they had the right Humanoid as a favored enemy (the same is true for Druidic and Plants)

[OldTrees1]

Edited: a few monsters know Thieves’ Cant in their language sections so... a ranger could learn them if they had the right Humanoid as a favored enemy (the same is true for Druidic and Plants)

Oh? Which ones?

[Naanomi]

Oh? Which ones?Lemme look...
Thieves' Cant: Changeling, Deep Scion

Druidic: Treant, Assassin Bug, Animated Tree, Tree Blight

Plus... a fair number of Undead, Fiends, and Constructs that know 'All Languages they Knew In Life'

[OldTrees1]

Lemme look...
Thieves' Cant: Changeling, Deep Scion

Druidic: Treant, Assassin Bug, Animated Tree, Tree Blight

Plus... a fair number of Undead, Fiends, and Constructs that know 'All Languages they Knew In Life'

Thanks.

Huh, Changeling but not Doppelganger?
Deep Scion is a weird one. I really don't see why they know it.

[Unoriginal]

Lemme look...
Thieves' Cant: Changeling, Deep Scion

Druidic: Treant, Assassin Bug, Animated Tree, Tree Blight

Plus... a fair number of Undead, Fiends, and Constructs that know 'All Languages they Knew In Life'


The Master Thief, Assassin, Tarkanan Assassin NPC statblocks also note they're proficient in Thieves' Cant. The Ravnica book also mention it's commonly spoken by street gangs and two categories of a certain faction's agents.

And not surprisingly, the Druid, Druid of the Old Ways, and Archdruid NPCs speak Druidic. Amusingly enough, though, the Tortle Druid doesn't.



Deep Scion is a weird one. I really don't see why they know it.

Either they were criminals before getting snatched by the old aquatics powers, or they learned as part of their "infiltrate surface society" missions.

[Naanomi]

The Master Thief, Assassin, Tarkanan Assassin NPC statblocks also note they're proficient in Thieves' Cant. The Ravnica book also mention it's commonly spoken by street gangs and two categories of a certain faction's agents.

And not surprisingly, the Druid, Druid of the Old Ways, and Archdruid NPCs speak Druidic. Amusingly enough, though, the Tortle Druid doesn't.
I left out the 'clearly just a class/job of any race' template-like entries (well... mentioned them but not stated), in part because I think a GM might object to 'favored enemy: Druid

I also left out some individually named NPCs who speak those languages (one Ravnica guild leader speaks each of the two languages)

[Unoriginal]

I left out the 'clearly just a class/job of any race' template-like entries (well... mentioned them but not stated), in part because I think a GM might object to 'favored enemy: Druid

A Ranger can select all humanoids as favored enemies, that includes humanoid Druids.



I also left out some individually named NPCs who speak those languages (one Ravnica guild leader speaks each of the two languages)

Logical.

[Naanomi]

A Ranger can select all humanoids as favored enemies, that includes humanoid Druids.
'Alternatively, you can select two races of humanoid (such as gnolls and orcs) as favored enemies.'

Sure, there are gnoll druids out there, and if I had 'favored enemy: gnoll' I would have some bonuses against them... but I cannot select 'druid' as my favored enemy directly, because they are not a 'race'. Whether that is sufficient for a ranger with such a racial enemy to learn Druidic... I leave up the GM

[Keltest]

'Alternatively, you can select two races of humanoid (such as gnolls and orcs) as favored enemies.'

Sure, there are gnoll druids out there, and if I had 'favored enemy: gnoll' I would have some bonuses against them... but I cannot select 'druid' as my favored enemy directly, because they are not a 'race'. Whether that is sufficient for a ranger with such a racial enemy to learn Druidic... I leave up the GM

Druidic is a language of profession, not race. If my big bad was a gnoll who spoke a dozen languages and had friends in every town, village and city from here to [insert landmark here], i wouldnt magically learn those languages just because a gnoll knew them.

[Naanomi]

Druidic is a language of profession, not race. If my big bad was a gnoll who spoke a dozen languages and had friends in every town, village and city from here to [insert landmark here], i wouldnt magically learn those languages just because a gnoll knew them.
I'd probably run it that way for humanoids... the Plants that can speak druidic are arguably a different case

[Unoriginal]

'Alternatively, you can select two races of humanoid (such as gnolls and orcs) as favored enemies.'

Uh, did this get errat'd in at some point? 'cause I've seen a different version.

[Tanarii]

Uh, did this get errat'd in at some point? 'cause I've seen a different version.
Nope. That's the standard PHB rule. Maybe you're thinking of a UA or other variant?

[Naanomi]

Uh, did this get errat'd in at some point? 'cause I've seen a different version.
I would suggest that racial enemy: all humanoids would be almost universally the best first choice in most campaigns if it were available?