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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class Community Project - Build the perfect Gish Base Class



GrayDeath
2020-08-29, 03:56 PM
As all of you know, there are a multitude of ways one can play a Gish in 3.5, and even more in 3.p (given the Magus exists).

But so far all of them either force you into a very specific Play Style (Hexblade, Magus, etc) or requires an inane amount of hoops to jump through (Say Sorcadin or similar).

Additionally, a gish class that is a base class needs to be balanced against full casters and Initiators, so that it is both powerful and useful but does not overshadow other good classes.

This is a community project to build a class, following the following steps:

1.: idea Collection/Basse Stat decision: All participants vote for the base stats (HD, BAB, Saves, Skillpts, Class Skills, Proficiencies). The overall most agreed upon Ideas are kept for the next steps, and the base stats are decided.


2.: Spell List Decision: Participants vote for things like own List, Maybe even fixed List (or a hand full of those to pick one?) Access to other Lists, and maximum Spell level.
The Majority is kept.

3.: Special Abilities: Ideas from 1 as well as new ones coming up specifically for this step are collected and voted upon. This concerns Things like Spell Combat, or AC Bonuses, Movement Bonuses, Special Attacks, etc, as well as supernatural abilities and Ability Bonuses, if any.


4.: Completion and playtesting. Self explanatory.


My ideas so far:

Musts: High BAB, 2 good saves, passable Skill List that includes at elast Intimidate, 2 Knowledges (Arcane, martial) and Perception, may include Use Magic Device if the power boost this offers is needed, otherwise not.

So far my preference would be up to 6th level access from the Sorcerer List, maybe amplified from a small amount of Paladin/Ranger Spells, if the other Specials/Supernatural Abilities fit it.

Specials: My general picture of a Gish contains both mobility and flexible weapon use, so Spellcasting requiring a Weapon, and a Mobility bonus a bit below the monk seems a good Idea.

Depending on the Fluff (my main idea would be to offer Sorcerer Bloodline Abilities but not spells, seems to fit) Ability Bonuses, but no additional Attacks, as weapons would be required.

So, what do you think, and who wants to contribute?

:smallcool:

Edea
2020-08-29, 04:35 PM
Let's start with the Duskblade (PHB II, p.19-24).

What is it about the Duskblade that's not fitting the bill? Time to review the list.

High BAB? Check.
2 good saves? Check.
Skill List? It's missing Intimidate, Listen and Spot. However it does have all Knowledge skills in-class, and since its spells are Int-based it's going to have a surprising number of points to spend (usually).
Spell List? Up to 5th, its own list, has to pick spells known. I sense this might be a problem area.
Specials? The specials seem pretty in-line with gishing, including getting rid of the ASFs for equipment and the Arcane Channeling/Quick Cast features. swift exp. retreat is also on their list, for movement.

So, it seems like maybe take the Duskblade, add three skills to its class skill list, and then mess with how it uses spells (an additional spell level, a different list, determine if it casts from the whole list or has a repertoire, or even if it's prepared or spontaneous arcane casting that uses Int or another stat).

Old Harry MTX
2020-08-29, 05:07 PM
For the 5e I have created a gish whose spells have the range reduced to that of contact, plus various features that serve to make the thing work. Maybe if you start from a Warblade, remove the maneuvers and put in a system like that, you got something interesting.

NigelWalmsley
2020-08-29, 05:56 PM
The big issue with the Duskblade is that they get Arcane Channeling way too late. That should be a 1st level ability and it should be usable with iterative attacks as soon as you get them.

More generally, there's the question of how you expect this class to interact with the existing Gish PrCs. You'll probably meet the BAB and casting requirements trivially, but a lot of them want particular spells that your standard Gish class might not have.

GrayDeath
2020-08-29, 06:08 PM
This is meant as a full Class "Gish in a Can", so there is no real Interaction with Gish PRC`s planned at all.

As for the Duskblade: Its not what I am looking for for 3 reasons.

1. As Nigel said, it gets everything much too late.

2.: It does not work with Ranged Combat, and 3: It stops at a pityful number of Spells up to level 4 only.

Even the Magus, PF`s better Duskblade, so to speak, for me has to narrow a focus (one hand free, melee, almost exclusively single target spells and too much Damage focus).

So yeah, as I wrote, how about we simply collect ideas and suggestions, and proveed as posted above.

Might we all get a good class out of it, and us doing it on this forum we will easily achieve a good balance point. :)

Edea
2020-08-29, 06:25 PM
OK, so...

1) Move Arcane Channeling up to 1st and just have iteratives factored into the ability from the start.

2) Allow Arcane Channeling to work with ranged weapons.

3) Give the class spell levels up to 6th.

4) Design a battle-centric spell list, and just let the Duskblade cast-from-list while adding a few Advanced Learning options.

5) Add Intimidate, Listen and Spot to Duskblade's class skill list.

Pretty much a direct power-up, but I'm sensing for the purpose of this thread that Duskblade's underpowered anyway.

NigelWalmsley
2020-08-29, 06:40 PM
This is meant as a full Class "Gish in a Can", so there is no real Interaction with Gish PRC`s planned at all.

It's going to interact with them unless you make that either redundant or impossible. Swiftblade and Abjurant Champion are tempting options for people even when they require you to build your character in weird and awkward ways. If you write something that qualifies for them naturally, people will take them.


Give the class spell levels up to 6th.

I am in favor if this even if all it does is eliminate one of the endless series of partial casting progressions that has been added to 3e. That said, I think you could easily get away with 9th level casting if you wanted to. Blasting spells are bad, and full BAB isn't a big deal.


Design a battle-centric spell list, and just let the Duskblade cast-from-list while adding a few Advanced Learning options.

One idea I've found to be tempting is to simply combine the Duskblade and the Warmage.


Pretty much a direct power-up, but I'm sensing for the purpose of this thread that Duskblade's underpowered anyway.

I certainly consider it to be, but it is helpful to define your power targets in advance.

Edea
2020-08-29, 07:24 PM
One idea I've found to be tempting is to simply combine the Duskblade and the Warmage.

...I like this. Just keep the casting stat Intelligence and that works (I think Warmages use Cha, can't recall atm), since the spell list in question is strictly limited.

Elves
2020-08-29, 10:32 PM
I don't like per-day casting on a gish because at some point during the day you cease being a gish. Seems the basic tradeoff should be that you get infinite weak/moderate damage spells and infinite short-range teleportation mobility at the cost of no access to stronger kinds of magic.


Here's a very simple gish class I did along those lines. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?615583-Fun-breezy-gish-class-with-infinite-spells)

NigelWalmsley
2020-08-29, 11:47 PM
You don't stop being a gish, you just run out of magic. Which I think you very much should do (at least in 3e), because casting classes do run out of magic. If you're supposed to be combining martial peanut butter with caster chocolate, it behooves you to keep the mechanics of the casters.


...I like this. Just keep the casting stat Intelligence and that works (I think Warmages use Cha, can't recall atm), since the spell list in question is strictly limited.

Warmages use Charisma for their casting, but get bonus damage on spells from high Intelligence (Warmage Edge). The way that works means it mostly ends up being pointless past fairly low levels, but it was one of the attempts WotC made to write casters that cared about more than one stat. That said, by virtue of being a Gish, you already do care about more than one slot, so in this context it's a solution looking for a problem.

nonsi
2020-08-30, 03:09 AM
.
I sincerely doubt you'll find something better than this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?560895) that's not broken.

Elves
2020-08-30, 11:24 AM
If you're supposed to be combining martial peanut butter with caster chocolate, it behooves you to keep the mechanics of the casters.
In 3.x, peanut butter + chocolate is what you achieve by multiclassing and there are many PRCs to service it. A gish base class, by contrast, shouldn't just be a multiclass-character-in-a-can, it should have a unique and fully unified playstyle.

GrayDeath
2020-08-31, 03:22 PM
OK, one more try.

I am not LOOKING for a CLass. I am trying to get this forum, which contains a lot of experienced palyers mostly on the upper OP range to comunally DESIGN one.

As I have written in the OP. So please just follow the procedure, and with a little time and some discussion we will create the Giantitp-Blade together.

nonsi
2020-09-01, 12:29 PM
OK, one more try.

I am not LOOKING for a CLass. I am trying to get this forum, which contains a lot of experienced palyers mostly on the upper OP range to comunally DESIGN one.

As I have written in the OP. So please just follow the procedure, and with a little time and some discussion we will create the Giantitp-Blade together.

From my experience, community projects end up not really suited for anyone's desires.
I suggest you seize the opportunity and take whatever you desire from given class examples to build a class that's suited to your personal taste.

Tvtyrant
2020-09-01, 12:56 PM
"1.: idea Collection/Basse Stat decision: All participants vote for the base stats (HD, BAB, Saves, Skillpts, Class Skills, Proficiencies). The overall most agreed upon Ideas are kept for the next steps, and the base stats are decided.


2.: Spell List Decision: Participants vote for things like own List, Maybe even fixed List (or a hand full of those to pick one?) Access to other Lists, and maximum Spell level.
The Majority is kept.

3.: Special Abilities: Ideas from 1 as well as new ones coming up specifically for this step are collected and voted upon. This concerns Things like Spell Combat, or AC Bonuses, Movement Bonuses, Special Attacks, etc, as well as supernatural abilities and Ability Bonuses, if any.


4.: Completion and playtesting. Self explanatory."

1. Full BaB is a must, decent skills, moderate HD is my preference.

I would prefer Invocations as a design to spell slots, and cramp up the swift action slot. For instance an Invocation of Swift Fly and another of Swift Haste creates a battle over the slot, so they make real decisions and not just buff into madness. If it picks of a list of all swift action spells but as at-will invocations and some more permanent ones for skills I think it would create a unique Gish.

Just to Browse
2020-09-01, 10:57 PM
I am not LOOKING for a CLass. I am trying to get this forum, which contains a lot of experienced palyers mostly on the upper OP range to comunally DESIGN one.

They did design one. In a different thread, in the past. I think you need a specific reason to reject any proposed design, because why else reinvent the wheel? I like both nonsi's & elves's designs. It looks like neither has seem time at the table during mid-levels or higher, so maybe testing / curating one of those classes would fit to your liking. Then you get to do some community design and no one has to vote for d12 versus d10 hit dice or whatever.

I personally already have several gish classes I like and I'm not sure I want to design any new ones unless they're pushing some kind of interesting ground. But I will bite.

A quick aside before I talk about the process: Isn't "gish" a concept for any magic + martial character? My understanding is that hexblades, rangers, paladins, duskblades, glaivelocks, psychic warriors, and arcane swordsages are all "gishes". That covers some very wide territory, mechanically & conceptually.

I think you're trying to narrow the concept of "gish" down to just arcane + martial characters. Your concept of a mobile spellweaving character makes me think more of swordsages than duskblades, as the latter is encouraged to wear big armor. But theoretically you could have a class that accommodates both... do you want a class that accommodates both?

Step 1: Are you In or Out?

The first step of any class design is to determine the scope of what you are actually making. What kinds of gishes do you want represented by this class? Here's a non-comprehensive list of questions:

Should the Perfect Gish predominantly use arcane magic, divine magic, psionics, or something else?
What is the tier target for the Perfect Gish?
How distinct should Perfect Gishes be from one another?
Should Perfect Gishes be allowed / encouraged to spend all their spells on buffing?
Should Perfect Gishes be allowed / encouraged to spend all their spells on channeling?
How much utility should Perfect Gishes have? And should that utility be enforced or opt-in?
If the Perfect Gish has utility, what roles should Perfect Gishes be able to play when using their utility abilities?
How complex should the Perfect Gish be to build?
How complex should the Perfect Gish be to play?
In a vague sense, what roles should Perfect Gishes be able to play in combat?

I recommend pushing aside any talk about your class's chassis. HD/BAB/Saves and the like serve more as signals to players than anything else. You can derive them pretty easily once you have a firm grasp on what role(s) the Perfect Gish is meant to play.

Step 2: Fundamentals

Once you have determined your class's scope, you need to work on the highest-level part of design. In this case, you should determine the Perfect Gish's resource management paradigm.

People here have mentioned the following. I've added some pros/cons to consider.
1/2 casting, lots of spells/day:
This is more approachable for people who know D&D. It also allows you to interface with existing spellcasting mechanics easily. Importantly, it lets you grant powerful utility effects on a limited basis.
However, it requires some annoying tracking, and I suppose there is the risk of your gish not being a gish anymore once they're out of spell slots.
1-round recharge casting:
This is a flashy mechanic that isn't used frequently, which can draw attention. It also lets you grant some surprisingly powerful spells, because access to those spells is gated by your character's action economy.
This requires you / your DM to learn yet another 3.5 subsystem, oh boy. It also doesn't interface with any existing spellcasting / invocation content without more specially-written rules.
Invocations:
It's one of the most popular and well-recognized subsystems outside of spellcasting, because warlocks are awesome. It is also conceptually very simple.
Your effects have to be small because they are all at-will. Enormous power jumps are inevitable because of how few breakpoints there are for Invocations.

I'm honestly not sure if we should mix those together or not (like a half-caster with some invocations) but it's a possibility.

Maat Mons
2020-09-04, 01:16 PM
I think the best gish base class I've seen was in Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting. Surprisingly, this was a 3.5 book, not a Pathfinder book.

Anyway they wrote an ACF for Cleric called Holy Warrior that gave full base attack bonus and d10 hit dice. You gave up both of your domains, but you also got proficiency with your deity's favored weapon. That not only accomplished what the War domain would have, it did it better, since it still worked if your deity's favored weapon is exotic, or if your eity doesn't offer the War domain.

Ad then you take that Forgotten Realms regional feat that gives proficiency with all martial weapons. You wind up with everything a complext gish build ould have. You've got proficiency with all simple weapons (from Cleric), proficince with all martial weapons (from the Militia feat), and maybe proficiency with one exotic weapon (if you choose the right deity). You've got proficiency with light, medium, and heavy armor, and shields, plus the ability to cast in any or all of them without pesky spell failure (good old divine spellcasting). You've got full base attack bonus, good Fort and Will saves, and d10 hit dice. And you get up to 9th-level spells from a good list.

Nothing that couldn't already be done with a complex mishmash of PrCs, but you get it just by taking a single base class straight through 1-20, and spending one feat. Simple, straighforward, rings you up to the level of a semi-optimized build, but doesn't surpass them.



Instead of having a channeling mechanic, you can write individual spells that accomplish the same thing. I'm partial to swift action spells that imbue your weapon with rider effects until the start of your next turn / until the next successful attack / whatever suits the power level of that particular effect.

I explored that idea somewhat here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?559699-Eldritch-Gishes).