Advice on using the Mystic

[DevotedPaladin]

After briefly playing as a Msytic in a one shot, I decided that it didn't seem as broken as I had previously heard and decided to give one of my players permission to multi-class into it in my campaign. I figured I'd pop in here to ask if anyone had any advice on making sure it doesn't get out of hand, especially since one thing I've heard brought up is that the Mystic isn't balanced for multi-class very well. The player in question has agreed to be careful not to powergame it and is fine with switching the levels into Warlock levels (their main class) if we decide that it's too unbalanced.

With all that said, any advice for DMing for a multi-classed mystic?

[Merudo]

Which levels did you play at?

In my experience the Mystic is especially busted around level 7-10. The main problem is that at that level, they get so many disciplines that they can do nearly anything.

- They can heal and buff better than the Cleric (Psionic Restoration, Mantle of Fury, Mantle of Command, Mystical Recovery)
- They can have better movement than the Monk (Mastery of Air)
- They can do better AoE damage than the Wizard (Psychic Assault)
- They can have better durability than the Iron Wizard (shield & medium armor, Intellect Fortress, Iron Durability)
- They can have better control effects than the Bard (Psychic Assault, Mastery of Ice)
- They have telepathy like the GOO Warlock

At level 11+ they do lose a little bit of steam compared to other casters, as they do not get equivalent to level 6-9 spells. Still, they remain unparalleled in their versatility.

[Dork_Forge]

I don't think that you'll really have any issues to be honest, especially since the multiclass ends up being pretty mad with being divided between Cha and Int. Consider limiting it to a single discipline or spell per round if you find balancing issues, but as is just let it be and see how it goes would be my advice.

Source: played alongside a Mystic, played an Immortal in a campaign, used them in PvP scenarios and DM'd one in a game


Which levels did you play at?

In my experience the Mystic is especially busted around level 7-10. The main problem is that at that level, they get so many disciplines that they can do nearly anything.

- They can heal and buff better than the Cleric
- They can have better movement than the Monk
- They can do better AoE damage than the Wizard
- They can have better control effects than the Bard
- They have telepathy like the GOO Warlock

At level 11+ they do lose a little bit of steam compared to other casters, as they do not get equivalent to level 6-9 spells. Still, they remain unparalleled in their versatility.

In practice Psi points limits you enough that you don't see much of a problemif any at all, since this will be the smaller part of a multiclass the problems you mention shouldn't really be a thing (telepathy isn't really a problem though).

[Edea]

...I think it suffers from trying to cover so many different 'psionic archetypes' in a single class. The way it's designed allows you to 'frankenstein' your Mystic build by poaching key disciplines from Orders that probably were not originally envisioned being used on the same character. It's also extremely vulnerable to dipping (so you were right to show concern).

Main Problem #1: Psionic Mastery is kinda busted, and the way it synergizes with Consumptive Power gives you what I feel is too many psi points. However, it comes on line late enough that it's not deal-breaking levels of worrisome. I'm not sure why this class is tossing so many resources at you when it's already got talents to fall back on, almost like some over-compensating apology for how they handled the Sorcerer.

Main Problem #2: You get waaaaaay too many disciplines. Each discipline has a passive (usually one that takes the Social aspect of the game out back and rips it a new hole) and about five different other things you can do with it. You end up with TEN of them (8 from class, 2 from archetype), so that's essentially fifty different spells you have ready to go, and you STILL have a couple of talents to fall back on (not that you'll ever need to, once you learn Consumptive Power).

Sub-Problem #1: Mystical Recovery - this is a very strong damage-soaking ability.

Sub-Problem #2: Strength of the Mind - a short-rest floating save prof is, again, very tanky. Pretty sure you're just going to switch it to Constitution and leave it there.

Sub-Problem #3: Potent Psionics - seems a bit strong, particularly adding Int to talent damage.

Archetype Problem #1: Order of the Immortal - synergizes way too well with Consumptive Power and Mystical Recovery.

Archetype Problem #2: Order of the Nomad - the 3rd level ****-you reaction teleport is...no. Short rest recharge on that, too, otherwise costs nothing.

Archetype Problem #3: Order of the Soul Knife - this entire archetype is a big, fat egg of solid ****. It takes the concept of bounded accuracy and brutally violates it in a back ally with a rusty razor blade (one that 'scintillates with psionic energy'). Do not allow.

Archetype Problem #4: Order of the Wu Jen - WHAT EVEN IS ARCANE DABBLER. NO.

[ATHATH]

...I think it suffers from trying to cover so many different 'psionic archetypes' in a single class. The way it's designed allows you to 'frankenstein' your Mystic build by poaching key disciplines from Orders that probably were not originally envisioned being used on the same character. It's also extremely vulnerable to dipping (so you were right to show concern).

Main Problem #1: Consumptive Power is BROKEN AS HELL. It flies directly in the face of the classic "You're fine as long as you have 1 hit point" D&D durability artifact, not to mention its synergy with Mystical Recovery (see below). This needs to be removed entirely and re-worked.

Main Problem #2: Psionic Mastery is also busted, though not as busted as Consumptive Power and it comes on line late enough that it's less worrisome. I'm not sure why this class is tossing so many resources at you when it's already got talents to fall back on, almost like some over-compensating apology for how they handled the Sorcerer.

Main Problem #3: You get waaaaaay too many disciplines. Each discipline has a passive (usually one that takes the Social aspect of the game out back and rips it a new hole) and about five different other things you can do with it. You end up with TEN of them (8 from class, 2 from archetype), so that's essentially fifty different spells you have ready to go, and you STILL have a couple of talents to fall back on (not that you'll ever need to, once you learn Consumptive Power).

Sub-Problem #1: Mystical Recovery - this is a very strong damage-soaking ability.

Sub-Problem #2: Strength of the Mind - a short-rest floating save prof is, again, very tanky. Pretty sure you're just going to switch it to Constitution and leave it there.

Sub-Problem #3: Potent Psionics - seems a bit strong, particularly adding Int to talent damage.

Archetype Problem #1: Order of the Immortal - synergizes way too well with Consumptive Power and Mystical Recovery.

Archetype Problem #2: Order of the Nomad - the 3rd level ****-you reaction teleport is...no. Short rest recharge on that, too, otherwise costs nothing.

Archetype Problem #3: Order of the Soul Knife - this entire archetype is a big, fat egg of solid ****. It takes the concept of bounded accuracy and brutally violates it in a back ally with a rusty razor blade (one that 'scintillates with psionic energy'). Do not allow.

Archetype Problem #4: Order of the Wu Jen - WHAT EVEN IS ARCANE DABBLER. NO.

What's so strong about Consumptive Power? It looks like it's a once per long rest ability, and thus not something you can really spam.

[Edea]

What's so strong about Consumptive Power? It looks like it's a once per long rest ability, and thus not something you can really spam.

OH, thank god, thank you.

I missed that part, so when I read it I thought the Mystic was able to do this whenever the hell it wanted to, so long as it had hit points remaining.

[Dork_Forge]

...I think it suffers from trying to cover so many different 'psionic archetypes' in a single class. The way it's designed allows you to 'frankenstein' your Mystic build by poaching key disciplines from Orders that probably were not originally envisioned being used on the same character. It's also extremely vulnerable to dipping (so you were right to show concern).

Main Problem #1: Consumptive Power is BROKEN AS HELL. It flies directly in the face of the classic "You're fine as long as you have 1 hit point" D&D durability artifact, not to mention its synergy with Mystical Recovery (see below). This needs to be removed entirely and re-worked.

Main Problem #2: Psionic Mastery is also busted, though not as busted as Consumptive Power and it comes on line late enough that it's less worrisome. I'm not sure why this class is tossing so many resources at you when it's already got talents to fall back on, almost like some over-compensating apology for how they handled the Sorcerer.

Main Problem #3: You get waaaaaay too many disciplines. Each discipline has a passive (usually one that takes the Social aspect of the game out back and rips it a new hole) and about five different other things you can do with it. You end up with TEN of them (8 from class, 2 from archetype), so that's essentially fifty different spells you have ready to go, and you STILL have a couple of talents to fall back on (not that you'll ever need to, once you learn Consumptive Power).

Sub-Problem #1: Mystical Recovery - this is a very strong damage-soaking ability.

Sub-Problem #2: Strength of the Mind - a short-rest floating save prof is, again, very tanky. Pretty sure you're just going to switch it to Constitution and leave it there.

Sub-Problem #3: Potent Psionics - seems a bit strong, particularly adding Int to talent damage.

Archetype Problem #1: Order of the Immortal - synergizes way too well with Consumptive Power and Mystical Recovery.

Archetype Problem #2: Order of the Nomad - the 3rd level ****-you reaction teleport is...no. Short rest recharge on that, too, otherwise costs nothing.

Archetype Problem #3: Order of the Soul Knife - this entire archetype is a big, fat egg of solid ****. It takes the concept of bounded accuracy and brutally violates it in a back ally with a rusty razor blade (one that 'scintillates with psionic energy'). Do not allow.

Archetype Problem #4: Order of the Wu Jen - WHAT EVEN IS ARCANE DABBLER. NO.

Okay I'm curious before I actually address any of this, have you played or played with a Mystic, or is this just theoretical complaints?


OH, thank god, thank you.

I missed that part, so when I read it I thought the Mystic was able to do this whenever the hell it wanted to, so long as it had hit points remaining.

Even if you thought that, it reduces both current and max hit points and comes online at level 10...

[Edea]

Even if you thought that, it reduces both current and max hit points and comes online at level 10...

Reducing max hit points means nothing, especially in 5e with how forgiving it is in regards to dying (and the sheer volume of reaction abilities the mystic gets to stop incoming damage). The way I'd read it before, your psi points basically became (class base + hit point total - 1); that is busted, no matter what level it happens at.

[Merudo]

In practice Psi points limits you enough that you don't see much of a problem if any at all

A level 10 Mystic has 64 psi points.

Mystic powers cap at 7 psi points, and are roughly equivalent to level 5 spells.

With Consumptive Power, and they can sacrifice a mere 7hp to cast an additional level 5 spell.

A Mystic can cast a maxed out mystic power every round, for 10 rounds.

Basically the Mystic is equivalent to a Divine Soul sorcerer except:

1) The Mystic can spend all their resources to create any spell slot (including level 5) **at-will** (not as several bonus actions)
2) The Mystic is perfectly efficient when creating new spell slots - the Sorcerer can only roughly half the slots as the Mystic. For a sorcerer, a level 3 slot costs 5 sorcery points, but only gives 3 sorcery points back when consuming it. The mystic can just convert the slots for free.
3) The Mystic knows about 3-4 times as many spells as the Divine Sorcerer can
4) The Mystic's spells almost always target Intelligence, the weakest save by far
5) The Mystic has access to several additional powers, including medium armor + shield proficiency, proficiency in any saving throw, potent cantrips, telepathy, etc.

If you have anything resembling a 5 minutes adventuring day, the Mystic is absolutely busted.

[Dork_Forge]

Reducing max hit points means nothing, especially in 5e with how forgiving it is in regards to dying (and the sheer volume of reaction abilities the mystic gets to stop incoming damage). The way I'd read it before, your psi points basically became (class base + hit point total - 1); that is busted, no matter what level it happens at.

You're missing that instant death keys off of your hit point maximum. Even if you could spam that ability, you're just making yourself easier and easier to instakill. Reducing hp max also matters since one of your complaints was that it was synergystic with Mystical Recovery, you can't recover hp you can't have.


A level 10 Mystic has 64 psi points.

Mystic powers cap at 7 psi points, and are roughly equivalent to level 5 spells.

A Mystic can cast a maxed out mystic power every round, for 9 rounds.

Basically the Mystic is equivalent to a Divine Soul sorcerer except:

1) The Mystic can spend all their resources to create any spell slot (including level 5) **at-will** (not as several bonus actions)
2) The Mystic is perfectly efficient when creating new spell slots - the Sorcerer can only roughly half the slots as the Mystic. For example a level 3 slot cost 5 sorcery points, but only gives 3 sorcery points back when consuming it.
3) The Mystic knows about 3-4 times as many spells as the Divine Sorcerer can
4) The Mystic's spells almost always target Intelligence, the weakest save by far
5) The Mystic has access to several additional powers, including medium armor + shield proficiency, proficiency in any saving throw, potent cantrips, telepathy, etc.

If you have anything resembling a 5 minutes adventuring day, the Mystic is absolutely busted.

So we're comparing them to a Sorcerer, sure:

-There's nothing stopping a Sorcerer that wanted to play this way cannibalising slots at dawn and stacking higher level slots, your SP max is capped, not the slots you create.
-A Sorcerer is better at this since they also get their SP pool to work with
-Listing all of the possible uses of disciplines is a false comparison. A Sorcerer (and any caster) can choose exactly what spells they want, the Mystic is forced to choose packages, I know that I certainly never used everything I had available, it either didn't fit my character or just didn't come up as useful. This can also lead to having redundant options.
-I don't really want to read back through the entire pdf right now, but from memory, no their abilties don't come anywhere close to "almost always targetting Int."
-The Sorcerer gets subclass abilities, metamagic and wider support for it's casting.

A five minute working day is it's own problem that will shaft any short rest classes whilst blowing up the power of long rest ones. That's not the Mystic's problem and you're better off looking to Wizards, Paladins and yes, Sorcerers to see ridiculous power levels in that kind of game.

[Merudo]

-There's nothing stopping a Sorcerer that wanted to play this way cannibalising slots at dawn and stacking higher level slots, your SP max is capped, not the slots you create.


1) The Sorcerer can only create up to level 5 slots.
2) The Sorcerer needs to make that commitment ahead of time - switching back would cost even more points. The Mystic doesn't have to commit until they use an ability.



-A Sorcerer is better at this since they also get their SP pool to work with


No.

As I said, a level 10 Mystic can use 10 powers equivalent to level 5 spells.

A level 10 Sorcerer who dumps all their slots and SP on level 5 spells can only get at most 7 of them.



-Listing all of the possible uses of disciplines is a false comparison. A Sorcerer (and any caster) can choose exactly what spells they want, the Mystic is forced to choose packages, I know that I certainly never used everything I had available, it either didn't fit my character or just didn't come up as useful. This can also lead to having redundant options.


A level 10 Mystic gets 7 Disciplines - I listed 8. So a Mystic can get nearly everything I mentioned.




-I don't really want to read back through the entire pdf right now, but from memory, no their abilties don't come anywhere close to "almost always targetting Int."


A lot of the good abilities target either Int or Cha.




-The Sorcerer gets subclass abilities


A level 10 Sorcerer gets two - at level 1 and level 6.

Each Mystic Order gives three abilities, at level 1, 3 and 6.

Also only the Divine Soul subclass approaches the depth of what a Mystic can do - but the Mystic still blows them out of the water.

[Dork_Forge]

1) The Sorcerer can only create up to level 5 slots.
2) The Sorcerer needs to make that commitment ahead of time - switching back would cost even more points. The Mystic doesn't have to commit until they use an ability.

1)I was referring to quantity, not level
2)They also use SP for Metamagic, it's not going to be a straight comparison unless the Sorc is using the Spell Point variant


No.

As I said, a level 10 Mystic can use 10 powers equivalent to level 5 spells.

A level 10 Sorcerer who dumps all their slots and SP on level 5 spells can only get at most 7 of them.

7 and a 4th level slot, that's not bad seeing as it's a side benefit of Sorcerer not their niche. The main thing about the Mystic is the flexibility, if you take that away then there needs to be something else in there. In non 5 minute day games though, it's not a good idea to play like that most of the time, managing Psi points can be a little difficult, especially since you don't have the number of at wills to all back on (3 Talents vs the Sorcs 6 Cantrips...)


A level 10 Mystic gets 7 Disciplines - I listed 8. So a Mystic can get nearly everything I mentioned.

I didn't say that you couldn't, my point was that getting your 'spells' in packages leads to redundancy and things you're rarely if ever use. So when you just list the number of individual options vs spells known (against the class most infamously short of spells known btw) then it paints a very misleading picture.



A lot of the good abilities target either Int or Cha.

That wasn't your original claim and I have to say, so what? It's a Psionicist, if you're not getting an ample number of options like that then the crunch isn't matching the fluff.



A level 10 Sorcerer gets two - at level 1 and level 6.

Each Mystic Order gives three abilities, at level 1, 3 and 6.

...Yes? Different classes use different subclass templates. A Warlock basically has subclass stuff at 1,3 and 6.


Also only the Divine Soul subclass approaches the depth of what a Mystic can do - but the Mystic still blows them out of the water.

I may have missed this, why are you comparing the Divine Soul specifically? Is this just because of the healing aspect?

Ultimately I have never seen, experienced or understood the seemingly vast amount of issues people have with the Mystic. Especially since it's a UA, which we know for a fact is a bit overtuned because it makes the final balance process easier/safer. Number of disciplines an issue? Flip the script, make the majority limited to their subclass and only a few free choices. It's a playest class, tweak it if need be, it certainly isn't perfect, but is isn't the broken monster people seem to think it is, if veratility is truly a problem then hooboy should Wizards catch way more flack than they actually do.

[loki_ragnarock]

DMed a mystic 1-20. My takeaway:

Mystic is definitely not a finished product; there are a couple of headscratchers in there that totally break the action economy.

Like the power that lets everyone take the attack action off turn. Not "make an attack." The attack action.

That's the only real "WTF were they thinking" to my recollection, but there are plenty of other instances where being half baked doesn't do anyone any favors. Prepare to constantly reference the document, squint, and muffle the voice inside you screaming "Why!?"


Apart from that, it's not so bad. It's a very different take on a character class because it's so modular; you can build just about anything you'd like with a mystic. It's almost a superhero system buried in 5e playtest material, which opens up alot of things for creative players who can't quite make what they're looking for elsewhere.
A little bit more polish and they'd have really had something. What they would have had is a different game, but certainly something.

[Edea]

I feel more like the mystic should've been presented as three separate psionic classes; psychic fighty-boi (psywar, battlemind), psychic sneaky-boi (soulknife, lurk), and psychic casty-boi (psion, ardent).

[DevotedPaladin]

Which levels did you play at?

In my experience the Mystic is especially busted around level 7-10. The main problem is that at that level, they get so many disciplines that they can do nearly anything.

- They can heal and buff better than the Cleric (Psionic Restoration, Mantle of Fury, Mantle of Command, Mystical Recovery)
- They can have better movement than the Monk (Mastery of Air)
- They can do better AoE damage than the Wizard (Psychic Assault)
- They can have better durability than the Iron Wizard (shield & medium armor, Intellect Fortress, Iron Durability)
- They can have better control effects than the Bard (Psychic Assault, Mastery of Ice)
- They have telepathy like the GOO Warlock

At level 11+ they do lose a little bit of steam compared to other casters, as they do not get equivalent to level 6-9 spells. Still, they remain unparalleled in their versatility.

The party is currently level 6. The player who would be multiclassing into this is a Warlock, with the other members being a College of Whispers Bard, Homebrew subclass Fighter, and Swashbuckler Rogue.

[Edea]

Not even saying this is optimal, but one build I'd really like to try at some point is combining Hexblade/Pact of the Blade with Order of the Nomad, by using the Improved Pact Weapon invocation to let me use a crossbow as my pact weapon.

The Nomadic Arrow discipline's nice, and you want the Nomadic Step discipline anyway, so the flexible discipline choice from the Mystic class chassis at 1st level could be pretty much whatever. Toss in some Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter, OotN lets you pick any two skills to be proficient in (probably Perception and Stealth), doesn't need too many spells (hex is your concentration spell, so I guess misty step on top of all your other teleportation abilities, dispel magic/counterspell...that's assume you don't just eldritch smite all your slots).

Warlock (Hexblade) 5/Mystic (OotN) X? Dual-wield hand crossbows! Maybe call it a Lurk?

[MrStabby]

Which levels did you play at?

In my experience the Mystic is especially busted around level 7-10. The main problem is that at that level, they get so many disciplines that they can do nearly anything.

- They can heal and buff better than the Cleric (Psionic Restoration, Mantle of Fury, Mantle of Command, Mystical Recovery)
- They can have better movement than the Monk (Mastery of Air)
- They can do better AoE damage than the Wizard (Psychic Assault)
- They can have better durability than the Iron Wizard (shield & medium armor, Intellect Fortress, Iron Durability)
- They can have better control effects than the Bard (Psychic Assault, Mastery of Ice)
- They have telepathy like the GOO Warlock

At level 11+ they do lose a little bit of steam compared to other casters, as they do not get equivalent to level 6-9 spells. Still, they remain unparalleled in their versatility.

I think this is almost exactly right but with one further addition...

The Points system makes it really really flexible which adds to its efficiency. With any other spellcaster your choices carry more of an opportunity cost. If a bard uses a level 1 spell slot for dissonant whispers then it cuts down on what it can use for healing g word later, and may need to start using higher level spell slots less efficiently.

Or, at the other end, if a problem/encounter can be more efficiently solved by a top end power rather than multiple medium level powers you can do that, even if you have done it a few times previously.

With spells, your most powerful spell being a bit overpowered is limited in its impact as you cant cast it using all your spell slots (or not efficiently anyway), with Points every point you have can go to your best/most situationally appropriate abilities making the class much more efficient.