How would you build an attack of opportunity based character?

[H_H_F_F]

I like attacks of opportunity a lot, as one of the only ways to function throughout the round in 3.5. How would you build a character that can do a lot with them? Robilar's gambit / karmic strike would probably be the base, and a few other options come to mind, but what feats/classes would you use to build an AOO character?

[Darg]

If you just like having a lot of them I recommend the weapon master (kensei) 9 for 2 reasons: Superior Combat Reflexes and the unique wording combination of Ki Whirlwind and Spring attack. SCR gives you a number of AoOs up to your combined total dex and wis modifiers which ends up being a lot if you don't dump it and bump it up with buffs. Then comes the attack combo. Whirlwind attack substitutes a full attack action. Using it as a standard action would require a different substitute which would be the attack action. Spring attack allows you to move before and after an attack (while using the attack action) while also negating AoOs from movement. Whirlwind lets you strike at anything within reach during your action. This means you can run through a bunch of people abusing robilar's then abuse the interation between Ki Whirlwind and Spring Attack to high tail it out of there safely after attacking everyone with full ab.

Keep in mind that if you want the prestige class by level 6 (which is the earliest I can figure out because of the +4 bab requirement of spring attack) you need the first 3 fighter bonus feats and human or another full bab class that gives a requisite feat benefit like swordsage. I personally like the being human and one level of swordsage as it gives you a much needed extra feat to squeeze in for personal preference. If you don't mind holding off one more level, you could get 2 levels of swordsage for wisdom bonus to AC. Cause Overreach from the Elusive target feat is a good option for this style of play. Improved trip can give you another attack if you succeed the trip attempt.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Take a level or two in martial monk for one or two fighter bonus feats without prereqs. You can take Robilar's Gambit as early as level 1, although (for some insane reason) Karmic Strike isn't considered a fighter bonus feat.

[Saintheart]

If you're going down the Tome of Battle line and can get a decent reach, consider whether Stormguard Warrior might fit your needs. Basically it allows you to forego AoOs for an increased attack and damage bonus the next round.

One combination that should work by RAW but which I haven't road tested myself is Stormguard Warrior + Throw Anything + Ranged Threat from Dragon 354. Ranged Threat allows you to threaten anything within 15 feet with a ranged weapon, which includes any weapon you have under Throw Anything. You refrain from AoOs as the enemy closes on you and have a +8 to attack and damage next round.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I'm a big fan of Mercurial Strike, in conjunction with Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike and Sneak Attack and/or the Iaijutsu Focus skill. Anytime someone attacks you, you get to counterattack with all your bonus damage. I won a Junkyard Wars round with a build (http://bit.ly/2kfZ3rs) that made heavy use of that trick, along with a couple of other things (some of which were related to AoOs, some of which weren't).

Double Hit is another nice feat that lets you attack again with your off-hand every time you make an AoO, though I don't think it counts as an AoO itself, so you won't benefit from (e.g.) Mercurial Strike on the second attack.

Defensive Throw is the lesser cousin to Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike, giving you an attack when an opponent misses you. Lesser, because the attack can only be used to make a trip attempt.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you want a good defensive option, take Evasive Reflexes to take a 5' step instead of an AoO, and find ways to turn that 5' step into a 10' step (or better yet, two 10' steps). If you can make AoOs when other creatures attack you, remember that AoOs take place before the action that provoked them, so you can hop out of the way any time a creature would hit you.

[flappeercraft]

Well here is a pretty well made build. Jack B Quick (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?329040-Famous-Optimized-Character-Builds-Archive&p=17031211#post17031211) which is entirely based on AoO's.

[Kitsuneymg]

If you just like having a lot of them I recommend the weapon master (kensei) 9 for 2 reasons: Superior Combat Reflexes and the unique wording combination of Ki Whirlwind and Spring attack. SCR gives you a number of AoOs up to your combined total dex and wis modifiers which ends up being a lot if you don't dump it and bump it up with buffs. Then comes the attack combo. Whirlwind attack substitutes a full attack action. Using it as a standard action would require a different substitute which would be the attack action. Spring attack allows you to move before and after an attack (while using the attack action) while also negating AoOs from movement. Whirlwind lets you strike at anything within reach during your action. This means you can run through a bunch of people abusing robilar's then abuse the interation between Ki Whirlwind and Spring Attack to high tail it out of there safely after attacking everyone with full ab.

Ki Whirlwind is not an attack action; it’s a standard action. It can’t be used with spring attack, which requires an attack action.

[Pinkie Pyro]

I like attacks of opportunity a lot, as one of the only ways to function throughout the round in 3.5. How would you build a character that can do a lot with them? Robilar's gambit / karmic strike would probably be the base, and a few other options come to mind, but what feats/classes would you use to build an AOO character?

Oddly enough I just made one focused on it.

So Martial monk lets you pick up [epic] improved combat reflexes for infinite AoO per turn, combine that with robmic gamit, and the dragon mag improved and greater combat reflexes, which make it so each time an enemy provokes you get an additional attack at -5 and -10, respectively. deft opportunist gives a +4 to hit on AoO so that's nice.

interesting note: Robillar's gambit doesn't mention (as far as my source) only working on melee attacks, so you could also use this to make ranged AoO against opponents potentially. *more* interesting, it triggers off of each attack, so using the above build, you can provoke AoO from your opponent and get 3 in return.

I just wish i could figure out how to get [epic] sneak attack of opportunity in there.

[Darg]

Ki Whirlwind is not an attack action; it’s a standard action. It can’t be used with spring attack, which requires an attack action.

Whirlwind attack isn't an action. It modifies an action already taken. It substitutes the attacks in the full attack action. It requires you to make an attack. Taking a standard action as you put it would leave you doing nothing as there aren't any attacks to give up. What standard action gives you an attack? The attack action. This leads you to use the attack action in order to benefit from ki whirlwind.

[ExLibrisMortis]

For an AoO build, I would use a level of Decisive Strike monk with Combat Reflexes, some size increases and Strength/Dexterity boosts, some type of annoying rider effect on AoOs, and some generic buffs (e.g. heart of x line of spells). For example, a monk 1/wizard 5/incantatrix 6 with draconic polymorph to turn into a war troll. The monk level is optional, but it's a good way to turn a generic gish into an AoO-focused build.


Whirlwind attack isn't an action. It modifies an action already taken. It substitutes the attacks in the full attack action. It requires you to make an attack. Taking a standard action as you put it would leave you doing nothing as there aren't any attacks to give up. What standard action gives you an attack? The attack action. This leads you to use the attack action in order to benefit from ki whirlwind.
Whirlwind Attack is a modified full attack action. Ki Whirlwind modifies Whirlwind Attack to take a standard action. Ki Whirlwind Attack is still a full attack action, it just doesn't take a full-round action. Since it is a full attack action, it is not an attack action, and can't be used with Spring Attack. It can be used with Flyby Attack, though.

[the_tick_rules]

In Dragon Compendium there is a monk class called monk of the enabled hand. Level 3 gives you the ability to make an AOO whenever you get hit in melee. Well up to the limit of the amount of AOO's you can use.

[Doctor Despair]

For low-OP anti-magic AOOs, Mage Slayer, Occult Opportunist, and Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain are a pretty good combination.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

In Dragon Compendium there is a monk class called monk of the enabled hand. Level 3 gives you the ability to make an AOO whenever you get hit in melee. Well up to the limit of the amount of AOO's you can use.And apparently the ability to attack someone who hits you has to be magical in nature, since it's marked (Su). :smallsigh:

Unlike some other AoO-granting abilities, you can definitely combine that one with Evasive Reflexes to avoid attacks altogether.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

One level in the Devoted Defender prestige class will let you get around the problem with Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit/similar: opponents wising up and attacking your allies instead. The first level ability lets you swap places with an attacked ally (one specific ally, chosen when initiative is rolled), taking the hit in their place any number of times per round. The second level ability also gives you an AoO when someone attacks your charge.

Funnily enough, there doesn't seem to be a restriction on making yourself your own charge. If you're also a Dvati (two bodies, one soul), then you can potentially get an absurd number of ripostes out of someone attacking one of your bodies: with Robilar's Gambit, you get 2 for the initial attack against Body 1 (potentially 3 or 4 actually if each body gets to take the opportunity attack), then use Harm's Way so Body 2 is now taking the attack, and get all of those opportunity attacks again. Go up to Devoted Defender 3 and you can also negate the attack with a Reflex save made by Body 1 so you're not taking damage from the whole thing.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Go Wildshape Ranger (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) or Divine Minion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) into Master of Many Forms. Take Frozen Wild Shape and Robilar's Gambit, turn into a 12-headed Cryohydra and make a 12-bite AoO every time someone attacks you.

[Doctor Despair]

I suppose, while we're on the subject, we should address the crippling weakness to any AOO build: Dragon Mag #333's Elusive Dance exists.

Your training in dance allows you to mirror and anticipate an opponent's moves.
Prerequisite: Perform (dance) 5 ranks.
Benefit: During your action, you designate an opponent. That opponent cannot make attacks of opportunity against you. You can select a new opponent on any action. If you have the Dodge feat you must designate the same opponent as the target for both feats.
Special: A fighter may select Elusive Dance as one of his fighter bonus feats.

[Darg]

Whirlwind Attack is a modified full attack action. Ki Whirlwind modifies Whirlwind Attack to take a standard action. Ki Whirlwind Attack is still a full attack action, it just doesn't take a full-round action. Since it is a full attack action, it is not an attack action, and can't be used with Spring Attack. It can be used with Flyby Attack, though.

It's an order of operations. Whirlwind Attack is a full attack action that can be modified after the action is taken but prior to making any attack:


When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

Use of the feat is declared by the giving up of attacks.

The wording of Ki Whirlwind provides further support:


A weapon master of 9th level or higher can make a Whirlwind Attack as a standard action rather than a full-round action. Only one whirlwind attack can be made per round.

It uses the category type, rather than the specific action taken. Comparisons are done between similar things. This means that "standard action" is at the same level as "full-round action." Which leads to the conclusion that the attack action is being taken as it is on the same level as a full attack action. Another reason to believe this is so is that WotC doesn't capitalize actions in sentences. Whirlwind Attack is capitalized which means it isn't being addressed as an action itself. This further affirms that Whirlwind Attack is not an action itself.

The first example of this last point that comes to mind is Order of the Bow Initiate's Ranged Precision ability:


Ranged Precision (Ex): As a standard action, an initiate may make a single precisely aimed attack with a ranged weapon, dealing an extra 1d8 points of damage if the attack hits. When making a ranged precision attack, an initiate must be within 30 feet of his target. An initiate's ranged precision attack only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits (including undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures) is not vulnerable to a ranged precision attack, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits (such as armor with the fortification special ability) also protects a creature from the extra damage.

Unlike with a rogue's sneak attack, the initiate's target does not have to be flat-footed or denied its Dexterity bonus, but if it is, the initiate's extra precision damage stacks with sneak attack damage. Treat the initiate's ranged precision attack as a sneak attack in all other ways.

The initiate's bonus to damage on ranged precision attacks increases by +1d8 every two levels.

An initiate can only use this ability with a ranged weapon for which he has taken the Weapon Focus feat.

[Stoic]

Here is gorfnab's build:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23015048&postcount=33

[ExLibrisMortis]

[lots of stuff]
I'm sorry, I don't see your point. What do capitalization and Order of the Bow Initiate have to do with Spring Attack + Ki Whirlwind?

[rrwoods]

Keep in mind that if you want the prestige class by level 6 (which is the earliest I can figure out because of the +4 bab requirement of spring attack) you need the first 3 fighter bonus feats and human or another full bab class that gives a requisite feat benefit like swordsage.

Alas, swordsage is not a full BAB class, though it’s a not too rare houserule.

[Darg]

I'm sorry, I don't see your point. What do capitalization and Order of the Bow Initiate have to do with Spring Attack + Ki Whirlwind?

Nice of you to simply ignore what was written. If you weren't being so dismissive you might not have had to waste your energy posting that question.


Alas, swordsage is not a full BAB class, though it’s a not too rare houserule.

Gah! Damn, back to the drawing board. The feat intensity is so high.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Nice of you to simply ignore what was written. If you weren't being so dismissive you might not have had to waste your energy posting that question.
I'm not ignoring it, I don't understand it. If I were ignoring it, I wouldn't ask the question.

[Darg]

WotC doesn't capitalize actions in sentences. Whirlwind Attack is capitalized which means it isn't being addressed as the action itself. As i mentioned above, Ranged Precision was the first example off the top of my head to show a comparison. The language of Ki Whirlwind makes inferring the unique nature of Whirlwind Attack very easy. Especially as they use the action category rather than the specific action taken with that same reference to Whirlwind Attack. A full attack action is a full-round action, but a full-round action isn't necessarily a full attack action. Because of this, the specificity of the "standard action" in the description comes into question. You don't generally refer to a square as a rectangle do you?

[Heavenblade]

Its not super high OP, but I always love a dex based AoO-er - in 3.5 its a swordsage with the shadow blade feat, spiked chain, combat reflexes, and stand still.

Not supremely powerful but simple and effective, I think.

[Ruethgar]

I would probably go parry, old build that would need to tweaking and expanding into the full 20 levels instead of E6, but still a good base.

Human Devil Bloodline 3/Fighter 2(Bodyguard)/Barbarian 1(City Brawler, Spirit Lion Totem, Dashing Step)/Chaos Monk 2(Passive Way of the Wing Chun Kuen which is obviously not intentionally legal but RAWfully is)

Flaw: Parry
Flaw: Improved Parry
Trait: Cautious
First: Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Ward Cestus)
Human: Deadly Defense
Fighter: Clear the Way, Power Attack
Blood: Dodge
Monk: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Improve Unarmed Strike, Improved Trip, Cleave
Third: Reckless Offense
Barbarian: Two-Weapon Fighting(Unarmed), Improved Unarmed Strike, Pounce, +2 AC on Charge
Retrain Extras: Weapon Focus(Ward Cestus), Expert Parry, Protective Parry, Allied Defense, Defensive Throw

[ShurikVch]

There are two possible tangents which weren't explored in this thread:

Ranged Threat feat (Dragon #350): when armed with a ranged weapon, you're threaten every square withing 15' from you, and able to make a ranged AoO - but only one per round (Combat Reflexes and such are directly disregarded)

Opportunity Power (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#opportunityPower) - when you make AoO, you can - by expending your psionic focus - manifest a touch-range power as an immediate action (but power's manifesting time shouldn't be longer than 1 full-round action); manifesting in this manner costs +6 pp (the common ML restriction is applicable)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There are two possible tangents which weren't explored in this thread:

Ranged Threat feat (Dragon #350): when armed with a ranged weapon, you're threaten every square withing 15' from you, and able to make a ranged AoO - but only one per round (Combat Reflexes and such are directly disregarded)

Opportunity Power (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#opportunityPower) - when you make AoO, you can - by expending your psionic focus - manifest a touch-range power as an immediate action (but power's manifesting time shouldn't be longer than 1 full-round action); manifesting in this manner costs +6 pp (the common ML restriction is applicable)That's probably because both of those are nigh useless.

Any build using Ranged Threat is likely to get hammered by AoOs when making its own AoOs, and it's only usable 1/round, despite possibly taking feats that grant additional ones. Plus, ranged weapons tend to deal very little damage, as they usually base their damage around making lots of low-damage attacks, and 15' is a pitiful range, when you rely on staying away from danger.

Opportunity Power, on the other hand, is pretty much useless. The number of offensive powers that can be used with it is pitiful, and most of them belong to non-psychic warriors -- who are the only ones who'll actually want to get into melee. Not to mention the dearth of psionic foci to pull it off and the downsides to trying to become focused in combat.

[Saintheart]

Ranged Threat's main utility is really in not actually throwing anything. It's when you combine it with Throw Anything and Stormguard Warrior that it gets some utility as the enemy closes in.

Ranged Threat indicates that you can make AoOs with a ranged weapon. If you have the Throw Anything feat, you are always armed with a ranged weapon, because it renders you proficient with any melee weapon as if it were a ranged weapon.

Stormguard Warrior requires that you refrain from AoOs in order to pick up +4 to attack and damage per foregone AoO. So as the enemy closes with you, when it moves from 15 feet out to 10 feet out, and 10 feet to 5 feet, you refrain from AoOs each time, foregoing 2 AoOs and thus picking up +8 to attack and damage next round without ever letting your weapon leave your hand.

Also raises an interesting question if you're armed with a Reach weapon at the time. By RAW you pick up 3 AoOs to forego: 2 from Ranged Threat from the polearm you don't hurl, and 1 from the foregone AoO from the polearm as a melee weapon. +12 to attack and damage next round is nice, especially if you take a 5 foot step and start the process again.


The other way Ranged Threat potentially be used is if you've got Double Hit and Hammer's Edge and you're using a short sword and a light hammer. Then you get two attacks with ranged weapons for each AoO and lay the target out prone if both of them hit. Sure, you could just get Improved Trip, but it's not as if this setup is meant to have general application.

[liquidformat]

If you just like having a lot of them I recommend the weapon master (kensei)

Quick question because I don't 3.0 dumpster dive often, Weapon Master requires Expertise and Whirlwind Attack Combat Expertise, those are the same feat correct? As far as I can tell they have identical functions, but not completely sure...

Anyways I anyone care to take a crack at making a Whisper Gnome Blade Bravo AOO build? I have always loved the idea of that class but not sure how best to optimize it.

[Saintheart]

Quick question because I don't 3.0 dumpster dive often, Weapon Master requires Expertise and Whirlwind Attack Combat Expertise, those are the same feat correct? As far as I can tell they have identical functions, but not completely sure....

That's how Expertise is commonly ruled - as Combat Expertise. I can't find a specific RAW reference to it that says it was specifically updated, though - even Wizards own rules reference (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x) doesn't say it was officially replaced which does mean the 3.0 option technically still exists as its own standalone feat.

[liquidformat]

That's how Expertise is commonly ruled - as Combat Expertise. I can't find a specific RAW reference to it that says it was specifically updated, though - even Wizards own rules reference (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x) doesn't say it was officially replaced which does mean the 3.0 option technically still exists as its own standalone feat.

Yeah that was what I was seeing with my minor rules-fu, though the fact that they are identical does lay credence to them being the same feat. I think a dm ruling they were two different feats would be enough for me to respectfully quit and avoid said dm in the future.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Yeah that was what I was seeing with my minor rules-fu, though the fact that they are identical does lay credence to them being the same feat. I think a dm ruling they were two different feats would be enough for me to respectfully quit and avoid said dm in the future.

It would be amusing to create a defensive build based on taking both, though. Probably not very effective, but amusing.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Opportunity Power, on the other hand, is pretty much useless. The number of offensive powers that can be used with it is pitiful, and most of them belong to non-psychic warriors -- who are the only ones who'll actually want to get into melee. Not to mention the dearth of psionic foci to pull it off and the downsides to trying to become focused in combat.Actually, looking through the list of touch powers, the only time I'd ever, ever use this feat is if it's paired with hostile empathic transfer to deal 50+ damage in exchange for 50+ healing. Granted, that's a really nice combo, but that's a lot of effort, energy, and resources to heal on an AoO.

[ShurikVch]

Actually, looking through the list of touch powers, the only time I'd ever, ever use this feat is if it's paired with hostile empathic transfer to deal 50+ damage in exchange for 50+ healing. Granted, that's a really nice combo, but that's a lot of effort, energy, and resources to heal on an AoO.
And what about the Fuse Flesh (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fuseFlesh.htm)?

[Heliomance]

WotC doesn't capitalize actions in sentences. Whirlwind Attack is capitalized which means it isn't being addressed as the action itself. As i mentioned above, Ranged Precision was the first example off the top of my head to show a comparison. The language of Ki Whirlwind makes inferring the unique nature of Whirlwind Attack very easy. Especially as they use the action category rather than the specific action taken with that same reference to Whirlwind Attack. A full attack action is a full-round action, but a full-round action isn't necessarily a full attack action. Because of this, the specificity of the "standard action" in the description comes into question. You don't generally refer to a square as a rectangle do you?

A full-attack action is *normally* a full-round action. It can be modified to use a different action without stopping being a full attack. If a hypothetical ability said "you may make a full attack action as a standard action", it wouldn't magically become an attack action. It would still be a full attack action that only took a standard action.

Your point about the capitalisation doesn't hold any water. First of all, assigning meaning to whether or not an ability name is capitalised would require WotC to have far more rigorous levels of proofreading and consistency in their copy than they actually do. Secondly, Whirlwind Attack is most likely capitalised because it's a feat, and I believe those are mostly capitalised (but see previous point about expecting consistency from WotC)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

And what about the Fuse Flesh (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fuseFlesh.htm)?That would require being a psion in melee combat, which is a hard no. Avoid that at all costs.

[ShurikVch]

That would require being a psion in melee combat, which is a hard no. Avoid that at all costs.
Mantled Warrior (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) - Pain and Suffering 6 :smallwink:

[Darg]

A full-attack action is *normally* a full-round action. It can be modified to use a different action without stopping being a full attack. If a hypothetical ability said "you may make a full attack action as a standard action", it wouldn't magically become an attack action. It would still be a full attack action that only took a standard action.

Your point about the capitalisation doesn't hold any water. First of all, assigning meaning to whether or not an ability name is capitalised would require WotC to have far more rigorous levels of proofreading and consistency in their copy than they actually do. Secondly, Whirlwind Attack is most likely capitalised because it's a feat, and I believe those are mostly capitalised (but see previous point about expecting consistency from WotC)

It still doesn't change the fact that Whirlwind attack is not an action itself. Saying a whirlwind attack is a full-round action means it takes 2 full-rounds to attack anything. You make a full attack action and then choose to give up your normal attacks for the benefit of Whirlwind Attack. It's in the description of the feat. If such verbiage is its own action, then every ability requires it's own action to be used.

Using the same verbiage, a Whirlwind Attack as a standard action would take any standard action; give up any normal attacks as part of that action; and apply the benefit of Whirlwind Attack. I really want to know where it says that Whirlwind Attack is its own action (if not a free action). It has consequences for tactical feats if so.

[Heliomance]

It still doesn't change the fact that Whirlwind attack is not an action itself. Saying a whirlwind attack is a full-round action means it takes 2 full-rounds to attack anything. You make a full attack action and then choose to give up your normal attacks for the benefit of Whirlwind Attack. It's in the description of the feat. If such verbiage is its own action, then every ability requires it's own action to be used.

Using the same verbiage, a Whirlwind Attack as a standard action would take any standard action; give up any normal attacks as part of that action; and apply the benefit of Whirlwind Attack. I really want to know where it says that Whirlwind Attack is its own action (if not a free action). It has consequences for tactical feats if so.

Whirlwind Attack is a modified full attack action. Ki Whirlwind allows you to do it as a standard action instead of a full round action. It's still a modified full attack action, not a modified attack action.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Mantled Warrior (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) - Pain and Suffering 6 :smallwink:Okay, that's pretty nice, although it's still really, really, really expensive in terms of resources spent, especially since it's useless on most enemies you'll be fighting in melee (with their huge Con scores and Fort saves, or anything with Quickened, Stilled/Silent, contingent, Su, Ps, or Sp abilities). Better than buffing enemies with the hammer power, I guess.

[Darg]

Whirlwind Attack is a modified full attack action. Ki Whirlwind allows you to do it as a standard action instead of a full round action. It's still a modified full attack action, not a modified attack action.

Whirlwind Attack exchanges attacks in a full attack action. It isn't a full attack action. It isn’t even an action. Nothing in its description states it replaces or is an action. Consistency requires Ki Whirlwind Attack allow you to exchange attacks. If as you say Ki Whirlwind Attack is simply a standard action, it would do nothing as you don't have attacks to give up.


When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

With Ki Whirlwind that becomes:


When you use "a standard action," you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

The quotation is verbatim of Ki Whirlwind. Or you can use the attack action. Full attack is to full-round as attack is to standard.

[Heliomance]

No, it becomes

When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. A weapon master of 9th level or higher can [make this special full attack] as a standard action rather than a full-round action. Only one whirlwind attack can be made per round.

[liquidformat]

No, it becomes

I think Heliomance's interpretation is correct, and frankly it seems like you really have to reach and take things out of context to be getting Darg's, not to mention Darg's interpretation is quite dysfunctional and from my understanding of the rules if your interpretation is dysfunctional and wouldn't work it is normally an incorrect interpretation...

[Darg]

No, it becomes

Where is the evidence that Whirlwind Attack is an action? It's worded as a passive benefit. I've already stated how it should work and the description speaks for itself. It's really simple. Whirlwind Attack is not an action and simply claiming it is isn't going to magically make it any different. It replaces attacks, not the action.

Ki Whirlwind allows you to use a standard action to make a Whirlwind attack. As it used the action type to describe the action a Whirlwind Attack is a part of, syntax requires "standard action" to be describing the action type and not the specific action taken. If Whirlwind Attack is an action, syntax requires it to have been declared as such in context. Lacking that context as it is, the structure of the sentence supports the opposite.

When someone asks you what breed your purebred dog is, you don't respond with "dog" do you?


I think Heliomance's interpretation is correct, and frankly it seems like you really have to reach and take things out of context to be getting Darg's, not to mention Darg's interpretation is quite dysfunctional and from my understanding of the rules if your interpretation is dysfunctional and wouldn't work it is normally an incorrect interpretation...

Except I've been arguing in context the entire time... where as I've been taking the evidence literally, you have to make an assumption for Whirlwind Attack to be its own action.

[AnimeTheCat]

Whirlwind Attack exchanges attacks in a full attack action. It isn't a full attack action. It isn’t even an action. Nothing in its description states it replaces or is an action. Consistency requires Ki Whirlwind Attack allow you to exchange attacks. If as you say Ki Whirlwind Attack is simply a standard action, it would do nothing as you don't have attacks to give up.


Where is the evidence that Whirlwind Attack is an action? It's worded as a passive benefit. I've already stated how it should work and the description speaks for itself. It's really simple. Whirlwind Attack is not an action and simply claiming it is isn't going to magically make it any different. It replaces attacks, not the action.

Ki Whirlwind allows you to use a standard action to make a Whirlwind attack. As it used the action type to describe the action a Whirlwind Attack is a part of, syntax requires "standard action" to be describing the action type and not the specific action taken. If Whirlwind Attack is an action, syntax requires it to have been declared as such in context. Lacking that context as it is, the structure of the sentence supports the opposite.

I'm not trying to be intentionally dense, but how is what you're saying at all different from what Heliomance is saying? You're saying that it takes a standard action to use Whirlwind Attack if you are using Ki Whirlwind, and Heliomance is saying... "A weapon master of 9th level or higher can [make this special full attack] as a standard action rather than a full-round action."

Where is the disagreement here?

[OGDojo]

Depending on how your DM does his campaigns and what you have access to.
if you can use Pathfinder, i would suggest looking at the Warder from Path of War, Specifically the Eternal Guardian abilities. (in path of war extended)
you can then take the great reach bracers and make them a swift action to activate (it costs a little more but definately worth it) with increases your Base reach to 15 feet then you can take a reach weapon and have an even larger radius of threatened area.

Warder gives you combat reflexes except that you can use your Int modifier instead of your Dex for determining the number of attacks of opportunity you get in a round. you can also take a few feats to do some really cool things with attacks of opportunity, theres also alot of things in Dragon Magazine 340 specifically for Attacks of opportunity. On top of that warder gets access to a stance that treats its threatened area as difficult terrain meaning enemies cannot charge or take a 5 ft step as a free action. giving you more attacks of opportunity. theres also a feat called "stand Still" which makes it so that when you take an attack of opportunity you can Stop an opponents movement and end their move action. meaning they cant escape as long as you have attacks of opportunity

The other option is Knight.
Knight is an underrated class, it gets some cool things like the "threatened area becomes difficult terrain" as a class feature, but you would still have to find a way to get attacks of opportunity (just take combat reflexes) but it would have to be a dex build. and you would take alot of the same things that the warder build has, great reach bracers, stand still feat, dragon magazine feats, those types of things.

Having a reach weapon helps with threat range, i know in pathfinder it doubles your range (making it 30 ft with the great reach bracers) i dont remember how they work in 3.5. but even if its only an extra 5 feet thats still a 20 ft reach that becomes your territory. as long as your threat range is large and your dex is high enough to give you several attacks of opportunity in a round you can get upwards of 6 attacks in a round even without using your standard and move actions to make attacks.

I guess in short, Yes building an attack of opportunity build is DEFINATELY worth it as long as you do what you can to not just attack people in your threatened area but lock them into your threatened area and control who lives and dies in your area.
Oh and recently i was told about a combat feat called "Combat Patrol" that increases your threatened range by 5 feet for every 5 of base attack bonus.

[Darg]

I'm not trying to be intentionally dense, but how is what you're saying at all different from what Heliomance is saying? You're saying that it takes a standard action to use Whirlwind Attack if you are using Ki Whirlwind, and Heliomance is saying... "A weapon master of 9th level or higher can [make this special full attack] as a standard action rather than a full-round action."

Where is the disagreement here?

The disagreement is how it is performed. Whirlwind Attack simply allows you to change an action being taken. The others say it is its own special action like the dual strike feat or shield slam when you make a special full-round action. One allows you benefit from feats with action limitations such as spring attack and the other not so much. I argue that Ki Whirlwind changes a standard action into a Whirlwind attack while the other argues that Ki Whirlwind is the standard action. I prefer the interpretation that keeps the class feature consistent with how the feat functions rather than changing the function of the feat to fit the interpretation of the class feature.

[rel]

Ki Whirlwind is not an attack action; it’s a standard action. It can’t be used with spring attack, which requires an attack action.

If your DM rules this way use flyby attack. It let's you take a standard action during your move.

[Heliomance]

The disagreement is how it is performed. Whirlwind Attack simply allows you to change an action being taken. The others say it is its own special action like the dual strike feat or shield slam when you make a special full-round action. One allows you benefit from feats with action limitations such as spring attack and the other not so much. I argue that Ki Whirlwind changes a standard action into a Whirlwind attack while the other argues that Ki Whirlwind is the standard action. I prefer the interpretation that keeps the class feature consistent with how the feat functions rather than changing the function of the feat to fit the interpretation of the class feature.

No, that's not what we're arguing at all. Whirlwind Attack modifies a full attack so that, instead of making your normal iterative attacks, you make one attack at every target in range. Ki Whirlwind further modifies the same full attack so that, instead of taking a full-round action, it only takes a standard action. It's still modifying the exact same full attack. Your interpretation is, frankly, nonsense - there is absolutely nothing to support the idea that it suddenly becomes a standard attack action. Full-attack is not synonymous with full-round action, just like moving your speed is not synonymous with move action. There are abilities that let you move your speed without using a move action; in the same way, Ki Whirlwind lets you make a full attack with only a standard action, so long as it's modified with Whirlwind Attack.

[liquidformat]

The disagreement is how it is performed. Whirlwind Attack simply allows you to change an action being taken. The others say it is its own special action like the dual strike feat or shield slam when you make a special full-round action. One allows you benefit from feats with action limitations such as spring attack and the other not so much. I argue that Ki Whirlwind changes a standard action into a Whirlwind attack while the other argues that Ki Whirlwind is the standard action. I prefer the interpretation that keeps the class feature consistent with how the feat functions rather than changing the function of the feat to fit the interpretation of the class feature.

I am with Heliomance and your earlier comment on this, your interpretation of Ki Whirlwind changing a standard action into a whirlwind attack does not make sense and I don't think it would work.

[Darg]

Ki Whirlwind further modifies the same full attack so that, instead of taking a full-round action, it only takes a standard action.

The problem with this is that it isn't what it says at all. It says you "can make a Whirlwind Attack as a standard action." Whirlwind Attack isn't a full attack. Because of this, Ki Whirlwind cannot modify a full attack to be a standard action as Whirlwind requires you to declare a full attack action prior to using it. This means that if Ki Whirlwind turns Whirlwind Attack into a standard action, it can only ever be prior to your move action as you can't take a full attack action without both your actions available.


Full-attack is not synonymous with full-round action

How many times have I said the same thing in this thread? Whirlwind Attack Requires you to take the Full Attack Action to even function. This means you can't use it on a pounce as that is a charge action. So it isn't simply a different kind of full attack. If it could be used with pounce, spring attack could also be used as part of a charge as that requires the attack action. Actually, if that is the case then spring attack could be used with any action that gives you a single attack. Making a full attack is not synonymous with full attack action.

[Heliomance]

"making a Whirlwind Attack" is very clearly intended to be interpreted as "making a full attack action modified by the Whirlwind Attack feat". I will concede that it's sloppy wording and could definitely have been phrased better, but your interpretation is far more of a stretch than mine. By strictest RAW, I suppose that Ki Whirlwind would be simply non-functional, as it would modify the feat to require a standard action to activate rather than a non-action, meaning that you then wouldn't have a full round action left to make a full attack with. That is, however, quite evidently nonsense.

My interpretation simply requires the author to have been using a slightly imprecise shorthand. Your interpretation involves somehow pulling an attack action out of nowhere and claiming that because you're using a standard action this must be an attack action.

[Darg]

"making a Whirlwind Attack" is very clearly intended to be interpreted as "making a full attack action modified by the Whirlwind Attack feat". I will concede that it's sloppy wording and could definitely have been phrased better, but your interpretation is far more of a stretch than mine. By strictest RAW, I suppose that Ki Whirlwind would be simply non-functional, as it would modify the feat to require a standard action to activate rather than a non-action, meaning that you then wouldn't have a full round action left to make a full attack with. That is, however, quite evidently nonsense.

My interpretation simply requires the author to have been using a slightly imprecise shorthand. Your interpretation involves somehow pulling an attack action out of nowhere and claiming that because you're using a standard action this must be an attack action.

Strictest RAW would be that Ki Whirlwind simply modifies a standard action. Simple, easy. My interpretation only requires the understanding that Whirlwind Attack is not an action. Your interpretation requires changing the entire function of a feat.

The attack action came from the action type/action dichotomy. I thought it was a stricter interpretation of the class feature rather than having Whirlwind Attack usable with any standard action. So no, it wasn't "out of nowhere" as I have mentioned the reasoning at least 3 times in this thread.

[liquidformat]

Strictest RAW would be that Ki Whirlwind simply modifies a standard action. Simple, easy. My interpretation only requires the understanding that Whirlwind Attack is not an action. Your interpretation requires changing the entire function of a feat.

The attack action came from the action type/action dichotomy. I thought it was a stricter interpretation of the class feature rather than having Whirlwind Attack usable with any standard action. So no, it wasn't "out of nowhere" as I have mentioned the reasoning at least 3 times in this thread.

The issue with your interpretation which I still think you have not answered is how does your interpretation function, do you believe that your interpretation still allows you to attack every target within reach?

As far as I can tell from the way you have described this the answer is no ki whirlwind attack breaks and doesn't do anything and you are getting a class feature that does nothing by design...

[Darg]

The issue with your interpretation which I still think you have not answered is how does your interpretation function, do you believe that your interpretation still allows you to attack every target within reach?

As far as I can tell from the way you have described this the answer is no ki whirlwind attack breaks and doesn't do anything and you are getting a class feature that does nothing by design...



When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

With Ki Whirlwind that becomes:


When you use "a standard action," you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

Whirlwind Attack is not an action and instead uses an action as a "host" for its effect. Instead of the full attack action "host," Ki Whirlwind changes the "host" to a standard action that must have an attack to give up. Whirlwind Attack changes the host action into a "whirlwind attack," regardless of what action it is. So yes, you still "make a Whirlwind Attack as a standard action rather than a full-round action."

The interpretation that turns a feat requiring an action in progress to activate into it's own action simply doesn't make sense. Saying Whirlwind Attack is its own special full-round action runs contrary to its own description, and I have yet to come across any evidence that even supports that theory. Tell me which parts are hard to understand and maybe I can elaborate in another way.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Whirlwind Attack is not an action and instead uses an action as a "host" for its effect. Instead of the full attack action "host," Ki Whirlwind changes the "host" to a standard action that must have an attack to give up. Whirlwind Attack changes the host action into a "whirlwind attack," regardless of what action it is. So yes, you still "make a Whirlwind Attack as a standard action rather than a full-round action."

The interpretation that turns a feat requiring an action in progress to activate into it's own action simply doesn't make sense. Saying Whirlwind Attack is its own special full-round action runs contrary to its own description, and I have yet to come across any evidence that even supports that theory. Tell me which parts are hard to understand and maybe I can elaborate in another way.
Even if Ki Whirlwind changes the "host action" to a standard action, your interpretation runs into problems. Ki Whirlwind doesn't specify what kind of standard action is now the "host action". It's not a specific action, because no specific action is mentioned. So if it's not a specific action, does that mean you can modify any sort of standard action with Ki Whirlwind, even the ones that don't involve attacks? Can I cast fireball and give up the attacks (all zero of them) to attack all creatures in reach, still getting my fireball because I'm not giving up the things that aren't attacks? I don't think that's what's supposed to happen.

In the end, your "host action" line of thinking results in Ki Whirlwind turning Whirlwind Attack into a special standard action. In practice, that ends up being very similar to our reading of a modified full attack action performed as a standard action. However, in the absence of a specific action, the strict RAW reading of Ki Whirlwind either results in an error (the action is undefined, therefore the ability doesn't work), or a hot mess of abuse (every standard action is now a whirlwind attack).

[Ramza00]

Try to get your DM to mix 3.5 with Pathfinder / DSP content and do a Warder build with its zone of nope. And as your main weapon use a big hammer with reach and "smash" with things like Vital Strike / Seize the Opportunity (which allows AoO to be Vital Strikes)

That plus Large and in Charge Feat from Draconomicon (which is similar to Stand Still but is slightly superior, note with PF rules you only get +2 size bonus and not +4.)

[Darg]

Even if Ki Whirlwind changes the "host action" to a standard action, your interpretation runs into problems. Ki Whirlwind doesn't specify what kind of standard action is now the "host action". It's not a specific action, because no specific action is mentioned. So if it's not a specific action, does that mean you can modify any sort of standard action with Ki Whirlwind, even the ones that don't involve attacks? Can I cast fireball and give up the attacks (all zero of them) to attack all creatures in reach, still getting my fireball because I'm not giving up the things that aren't attacks? I don't think that's what's supposed to happen.

In the end, your "host action" line of thinking results in Ki Whirlwind turning Whirlwind Attack into a special standard action. In practice, that ends up being very similar to our reading of a modified full attack action performed as a standard action. However, in the absence of a specific action, the strict RAW reading of Ki Whirlwind either results in an error (the action is undefined, therefore the ability doesn't work), or a hot mess of abuse (every standard action is now a whirlwind attack).

Whirlwind Attack requires you to give up your attacks to benefit. There is no "error" to be had. I also gave my 1 to 1 comparison with attack and full attack with standard action and full-round action.

[Heliomance]

Whirlwind Attack requires you to give up your attacks to benefit. There is no "error" to be had. I also gave my 1 to 1 comparison with attack and full attack with standard action and full-round action.

Okay, so, what if you use your standard action to cast Scorching Ray? That has attack rolls.

[Darg]

Okay, so, what if you use your standard action to cast Scorching Ray? That has attack rolls.

Considering you are giving up your attacks, why waste the spell by turning it into a whirlwind attack? Ranged touch attacks deliver themselves and are invalidated by not having ranged touch attack. Touch spells however do not require touch attacks and can be delivered with a regular unarmed strike. It would still get discharged completely on the first attack unless it can affect multiple targets. The likelihood someone would spend levels on casting for this combo is pretty miniscule.