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Human Paragon 3
2007-10-31, 11:10 PM
Looking for the most arrow damage possible by mundane means (feats and classes). No ToB, no complete champion, everything else is OK. I was thinking the archery style barbarian variant from UA as a base, then working from there (the character is going to be a home-brewed orc, most likely, FYI). I know you forumites know how to get some serious bow damage (person man, I'm looking at you), so any help is appreciated. The way I see it, if your entire combat role is defined as narrowly as "arrow damage," you'd better be able to really pull it off.

Please, no full casting. Half casters like rangers is fair game, but note that mental stats will likely be tanked for STR DEX and CON.

BardicDuelist
2007-10-31, 11:12 PM
Rogue/Scout with swift tracker (I think that's it) and greater manyshot could be impressive, although I'm not sure this is the best.

Composite Greatbow with a high Str and the above should be decent.

arkol
2007-10-31, 11:20 PM
I belive you mean swift hunter.

Complete scoundrel feat. ranger/scout levels stack for skirmish/favoured enemy.

SadisticFishing
2007-10-31, 11:32 PM
Rogue 16/Scout 4 with Swift Ambusher.

Get boots of sidestepping and Improved Manyshot, Improved Skirmish, and a couple of other good feats.

You end up doing 5d6 (7d6 if you move a lot) skirmish damage and 8d6 sneak attack her hit, as well as having the full +15 bab even though you multiclassed. Get a lot of points into UMD and get a thingy of Divine Power, and you own face.

Personally, I'd play it as a Kobold and get Reduce Person, for tactical advantage and +hit. And I just love kobolds.

Grynning
2007-11-01, 12:14 AM
There is also the idea of going with a powerful build race (goliath or Half-giant) - bigger bow = more damage. Also, there is a nice progression of Psionic "Shot" feats in the EPH. I would recommend going with a Half-giant Psychic Warrior, and taking Zen Archery (Wis instead of Dex for ranged attacks). Then you can have Dex be a low stat, have a high Wisdom for your psionics, and kick (shoot?) much ass. This avoids the situational nature of both sneak attack and skirmish.
Of course, this may be a bit cheesier than what you were going for, but it is pretty difficult to do a high-damage archer in 3.5.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-01, 12:18 AM
ToB doesn't help with ranged weapons anyway, so no worries there.

Rad
2007-11-01, 04:52 AM
Ranger 16/Scout 4 (or other variations) with swift hunter. Note that you'll be able to deal skirmish damage to favored enemies, so you can pick undead, constructs and the like and retain effectiveness. Improved skirmish lets you add yet more damage (+7d6 if you move 20') and multiattack. Get a flaming/shocking/holy/whatever bow and go for it.
For cheese (as cheesy as archers can go) pick the splitting weapon enchantment (Champions of Ruin) to duplicate every arrow as it flies (yes, double damage).

PS: If retraining is allowed, get travel devotion; it's good before you manage to get Improved Manyshot at lvl 12.

EDIT: ToB does have a couple of interesting things; notably some damage boosting stances and ways to move your required 10' (or 20') as a swift action.

Grynning
2007-11-01, 05:04 AM
Don't think that swift hunter allows you to deal skirmish damage to things that are immune to it, even if they are favored enemies. Is that in the feat text? (I don't have Complete Scoundrel ATM).

malcolm
2007-11-01, 05:41 AM
It does let you deal precision damage to favored enemies.

Overlard
2007-11-01, 05:45 AM
Don't think that swift hunter allows you to deal skirmish damage to things that are immune to it, even if they are favored enemies. Is that in the feat text? (I don't have Complete Scoundrel ATM).
Yes.

Filler.

Rad
2007-11-01, 07:12 AM
Don't think that swift hunter allows you to deal skirmish damage to things that are immune to it, even if they are favored enemies. Is that in the feat text? (I don't have Complete Scoundrel ATM).
Yes, it is stated out as an additional benefit in the Feat description

Neon Knight
2007-11-01, 08:25 AM
There is also the idea of going with a powerful build race (goliath or Half-giant) - bigger bow = more damage. Also, there is a nice progression of Psionic "Shot" feats in the EPH. I would recommend going with a Half-giant Psychic Warrior, and taking Zen Archery (Wis instead of Dex for ranged attacks). Then you can have Dex be a low stat, have a high Wisdom for your psionics, and kick (shoot?) much ass. This avoids the situational nature of both sneak attack and skirmish.
Of course, this may be a bit cheesier than what you were going for, but it is pretty difficult to do a high-damage archer in 3.5.

Yeah, and adds a new situational requirement: Must have a psionic focus. Which is a DC 20 Concentration check (piddly) but requires a full round action (not so piddly.) In addition it caps at +4d6.

Trust me, this won't be cheesy. Psionics is more balanced than spellcasting, and the Psionic Shot Feat line isn't that impressive. A larger bow is usually... what, a 1.5 damage increase on average? I forget exactly, but weapon and weapon size don;t contribute much damage-wise.

Darrin
2007-11-01, 09:05 AM
ToB doesn't help with ranged weapons anyway, so no worries there.

Never seen a Bloodstorm Blade chuck a half-dozen greatswords at a target with full Power Attack/Shock Trooper, eh?

Shishnarfne
2007-11-01, 02:03 PM
Yeah, and adds a new situational requirement: Must have a psionic focus. Which is a DC 20 Concentration check (piddly) but requires a full round action (not so piddly.) In addition it caps at +4d6.
*snip*

This is why most psionic builds add a couple additional feats: first, Psionic Meditation (gaining psionic focus is now a move action, less trouble, but still not worth giving up a full attack with a bow for me); secondly, Fell Shot (resolve that attack as a touch attack), which is significantly less useful than the melee damage unless you get a Power Attack-equivalent (is there one of these for a bow?).

Grynning
2007-11-01, 02:11 PM
There's a feat that lets you Psionically focus as a move action, and I think the Psionic shot tree is a bit better than people give it credit for. I'm thinking of Fell Shot, in particular - resolving the ranged attack as a touch attack can be invaluable against heavily armored opponents, especially at high levels. Since none of the builds here are suggesting you go full BAB, hitting things could be a problem. The other thing to consider is that skirmish and sneak attack only work within 30 feet, if you want to snipe at long range, the psionic shots are a better choice.
Also, Psionic Warrior is ok just to take a few levels in to get psionic feats and a few powers. You could still multi to rogue for sneak attack or scout for skirmish, or ranger for more feats.

Also, a Large Composite Longbow would do 2D6, and at the risk of burning another feat, a Large Composite Greatbow would do 2D8. Remember too that most scout/rogue only builds are limited to a shortbow unless you burn the martial proficiency feat. Even if you don't go with the Psionic thing, and go Ranger/Scout, which may be the best choice presented here, to truly maximize damage output you should be using a large weapon, IMO. Goliaths make great rangers/scouts anyways, so there you go.

BardicDuelist
2007-11-01, 02:13 PM
Which is better for damage (and only damage):
Swift Hunter or Swift Ambusher (which is what I meant in my previous post, sorry)? I mean, the non-variable damage that ranger's favored enemy adds is less then if you rolled all ones doing sneak attack, right? Is there some ranger spell that I'm missing that adds buckets of damage to your ranged attacks?

As for "bigger bow=more damage" is the chance for 2-4 more damage really better than Xd6? Sure, its situational, but if we're going for straight damage output, I think the Rog/Sct is the best way to go, my mundane means (feats/classes) and ranger spells.

If the OP wants PWarrior, there are probably better options though.

cupkeyk
2007-11-01, 02:19 PM
The real deal breaker is the bab, a ranger/scout could end with 19 BAB at best, 16 at worst. This means three arrows, with full skirmish damage with greater manyshot and all your bow and arrow enhancements bonuses. A rogue/scout will never get past 15 and may get it lower unless you have the partial bab progression. two arrows? not as good as three. It becomes your attack multiplier basically.

CoR has a split arrow spell for rangers, that splits arrows into two in midflight dealing its entire damage twice. There is also Hunter's Mercy or hunter's eye whatever that grants them some SA.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-01, 02:20 PM
I think your best bet is to just go rogue/scout like some else suggested, focusing more on the precision damage than the actual bow damage, then just use a crossbow with crossbow sniper for extra range.

Grynning
2007-11-01, 02:27 PM
Again, we're talking about maximizing damage. Also, as I mentioned, having powerful build in no way stops you from taking levels in either Rogue or Scout. If you want to use the Psionics, go Half-Giant. If you don't, go Goliath, and take Exotic WP Greatbow. Once again, you may not get your precision damage all the time, so higher base damage on your bow is a very good thing, especially with Manyshot/Greater Manyshot.

Neon Knight
2007-11-01, 02:28 PM
There's a feat that lets you Psionically focus as a move action, and I think the Psionic shot tree is a bit better than people give it credit for. I'm thinking of Fell Shot, in particular - resolving the ranged attack as a touch attack can be invaluable against heavily armored opponents, especially at high levels. Since none of the builds here are suggesting you go full BAB, hitting things could be a problem. The other thing to consider is that skirmish and sneak attack only work within 30 feet, if you want to snipe at long range, the psionic shots are a better choice.
Also, Psionic Warrior is ok just to take a few levels in to get psionic feats and a few powers. You could still multi to rogue for sneak attack or scout for skirmish, or ranger for more feats.

That's still a move action your burning up. 30 feet or more you could have put between you and the enemy. Fell Shot is nice, but I still don;t think you could call it the most bow damage without spells. (And it uses Psionics, which some equate to spells. Well, okay, all it requires is a power point reserve, which you can get through another feat.)



Also, a Large Composite Longbow would do 2D6, and at the risk of burning another feat, a Large Composite Greatbow would do 2D8. Remember too that most scout/rogue only builds are limited to a shortbow unless you burn the martial proficiency feat. Even if you don't go with the Psionic thing, and go Ranger/Scout, which may be the best choice presented here, to truly maximize damage output you should be using a large weapon, IMO. Goliaths make great rangers/scouts anyways, so there you go.

The math does not support your opinion.

Average of 1d8: 4.5
Average of 2d6: 6.5

A bigger bow is equivalent to Weapon Spec. WEAPON SPEC. Weapon Spec is not worth +1 LA under any circumstances.

EDIT:

Again, we're talking about maximizing damage. Also, as I mentioned, having powerful build in no way stops you from taking levels in either Rogue or Scout. If you want to use the Psionics, go Half-Giant. If you don't, go Goliath, and take Exotic WP Greatbow. Once again, you may not get your precision damage all the time, so higher base damage on your bow is a very good thing, especially with Manyshot/Greater Manyshot.

If you aren't getting that precision damage, your base damage will not make up for it. Base damage forms an extremely small part of your overall damage at high levels.

Human Paragon 3
2007-11-01, 02:37 PM
What would be the damage output on the scout/rogue?

Grynning
2007-11-01, 02:37 PM
If you're putting 30 feet between you and your enemy, you probably are moving out of precision range. I guess the disagreement here stems from my opinion that archers should not be darting around within what is basically melee range of their opponents (30 ft, one move action away). That is not a realistic or smart way to use a bow (I know mechanically it works, but it just seems silly to me). Archers should hang back, far out of melee, and pick people off. So, if the OP wants to John Woo fight with their bow, then yes, Scout is the best choice. However, sniping in the classic sense is still best accomplished with things other than precision damage.
Also, I realized we've been ignoring the Order of the Bow Initiate from Complete Warrior. It gets a precision progression of D8's rather than D6's, and eventually can use it out to 60 ft. Sort of the best of both worlds. So that now gets my vote.

Edit: Actually, their 10th level ability also applies to Sneak Attacks, and it's a full BaB PrC. So Ranger/Rogue, OotBI would seem to have the best overall damage output (+5D8 ranged precision, plus possible sneak attack, plus possible favored enemy). Only bad thing is that the Ranged precision attack takes a standard action by itself, so it can't be combined with manyshot...hmmm...

Neon Knight
2007-11-01, 02:46 PM
If you're putting 30 feet between you and your enemy, you probably are moving out of precision range. I guess the disagreement here stems from my opinion that archers should not be darting around within what is basically melee range of their opponents (30 ft, one move action away). That is not a realistic or smart way to use a bow (I know mechanically it works, but it just seems silly to me). Archers should hang back, far out of melee, and pick people off. So, if the OP wants to John Woo fight with their bow, then yes, Scout is the best choice. However, sniping in the classic sense is still best accomplished with things other than precision damage.
Also, I realized we've been ignoring the Order of the Bow Initiate from Complete Warrior. It gets a precision progression of D8's rather than D6's, and eventually can use it out to 60 ft. Sort of the best of both worlds. So that now gets my vote.

The idea is that you hang out at 30 feet (maximum precision damage ranged) Greater Multishotting your foes as they try to chase you down. The movement is to avoid full attacks, which can be pretty nasty.

Sniping not only doesn't scale well damage wise, but is, quite frankly, atypical. The assumed dungeon environment doesn't have much in the way of open spaces, and intelligent foes are unlikely to sit around engaging your meatshields (and thus taking their full attacks). Better to take one or two AoOs and net yourself a dead archer.

Order of the Bow:
http://faroutshirts.com/images/ItsATrap-preview-1.png

That ranged precision? Applies to one attack. Limits you to one attack. No way +5d8 will every stack up to either melee full attacks or the Rogue's 3-4 +10d6 arrows.

Human Paragon 3
2007-11-01, 02:46 PM
True, but OoBI only gets is precision damage if you spend a standard action to fire one arrow (I believe).

Edit: Ninja'd
Edit: Double edited Ninja Ninja'd!

Rad
2007-11-01, 03:31 PM
The "vanilla" swift hunter (ranger/scout) can move 20' and then manyshot with 19 BAB (3 attacks are usually fine). Each attack deals {base damage}+5d6+2d6, so about 1d8+7d6. Actual damage will be more than that thanks to the equipment, but that is true for any build, so let's just stick to the relevant part.
This is less than a rogue but it can be applied always since it is easier to be able to move than to have someone lose their bonus to AC not to count that 4 points more of BAB mean that you're able to shoot one more arrow with decent chances to hit, 3x7d6=21d6+triple bonus damage (from holy, flaming etc. bow) while 2x10d6=20d6+only twice the bonus damage from equipment.
This is neglecting Ranger spellcasting which is, however, an important part of your class abilities and contains a bunch of useful spells for an archer.

You can pump up Skirmish damage more, but to do so you also have to take about 10 levels of sorcerer spellcasting (sic). It relies on getting into unseen seer and pump up the skirmish damage at the rogue rate leaving behind the bonus it normally gives to AC. If you do it all you get +16 BAB, +9d6 skirmish (+11d6 with improved skirmish) and cast as a level 11 sorcerer (12th, which means 6th level spells, if you take the last level in abjurant champion); the only drawback is that you only get 2 favored enemies, so you might find something that is immune to your skirmish.
You never take a single level of sorcerer by the way: there's a class in Races of the Dragon (name eludes me now) that pumps up your skirmish damage and gives you spellcasting as a sorcerer 1 at level 3. Take 3 levels for +1d6 skirmish, spellcasting and other goodies (like stat increases) and then get into unseen seer for 9 levels.
This whole thing is a bit out of what the OP asked, but after all this build has high arrow damage as Ex abilities; the arcane spellcasting is on top of that :smallbiggrin: so I reckoned I'd post this.

Chronos
2007-11-01, 03:48 PM
Just to be clear, do the psi archery feats require that you expend psionic focus, or just that you have it? If the latter, then you just take 20 in the morning when you wake up to gain focus, and then just hold onto it all day. And even if the former, you still get it in the first round of combat, and if you do enough damage in the first round, you don't need it in the second.

Jasdoif
2007-11-01, 03:50 PM
The math does not support your opinion.

Average of 1d8: 4.5
Average of 2d6: 6.5The average of 2d6 is 7. Minimum 2, maximum 12.

Frosty
2007-11-01, 03:51 PM
Where are these feats anyways like Improved Manyshot and Improved Skirmish?

Fax Celestis
2007-11-01, 03:54 PM
Improved Manyshot is in the Epic Level Handbook. Greater Manyshot is in the Expanded Psionics Handbook and is actually available before Improved.

As for Improved Skirmish, that's in Complete Scoundrel.

I'd recommend taking Mounted Combat/Mounted Archery, riding a flying mount (such as a giant eagle, giant owl, or giant raven), and acquiring the Plunging Shot feat for an extra 1d6. It'll vastly increase your mobility, among other things.

cupkeyk
2007-11-01, 04:00 PM
Where are these feats anyways like Improved Manyshot and Improved Skirmish?

Improved Manyshot is in the epic level handbook and it sucks. Greater manyshot is in Expanded Psionics Handbook which is what i assume you are looking. Improved Skirmish for is in complete scoundrel, I think.

*shrug* Throw in Deadeye from dragon Compendium and you get your Dex modifier to damage.

Rad
2007-11-01, 04:22 PM
*shrug* Throw in Deadeye from dragon Compendium and you get your Dex modifier to damage.
that's about +12 damage (which is good) but it costs 2 feats (which is not) so I'd say that it's not worth it.

The +12 comes from Dex 18 (base) +5 (levels) +5 (inherent) +6 (item)=34 for a +12 modifier.

You can get one or two points more with races and the like, but that's about what you are looking at.

cupkeyk
2007-11-01, 04:51 PM
that's about +12 damage (which is good) but it costs 2 feats (which is not) so I'd say that it's not worth it.

The +12 comes from Dex 18 (base) +5 (levels) +5 (inherent) +6 (item)=34 for a +12 modifier.

You can get one or two points more with races and the like, but that's about what you are looking at.

Tecvhnically you are only wasting one feat, weapon focus, since pbs is a prereq for all archery style feats. and weapon focus is actually good for manyshot builds since they will get as much as -8 to their attacks, it wins back some of their penalties to hit.

Neon Knight
2007-11-01, 05:05 PM
Just to be clear, do the psi archery feats require that you expend psionic focus, or just that you have it? If the latter, then you just take 20 in the morning when you wake up to gain focus, and then just hold onto it all day. And even if the former, you still get it in the first round of combat, and if you do enough damage in the first round, you don't need it in the second.

They require you to expend it. And it caps at +4d6. +4d6. At level 20, that is not impressive.

Hmmm....


Psionic Shot [Psionic]

You can charge your ranged attacks with additional damage potential.
Prerequisite

Point Blank Shot.
Benefit

To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. Your ranged attack deals +2d6 points of damage. You must decide whether or not to use this feat prior to making an attack. If your attack misses, you still expend your psionic focus.


Does attack here mean attack roll? Does it apply to all your arrows, or only the first one?


The average of 2d6 is 7. Minimum 2, maximum 12.

Thank you for the correction. The larger bow provides 2.5 damage over the normal one.

Somehow, that .5 increase doesn't change my mind. Maybe I'm stubborn.:smallamused:

Fax Celestis
2007-11-01, 05:07 PM
Only to one arrow. Also, since you can't expend psionic focus on multiple sources, you either fuel Psionic Shot, Greater Psionic Shot, or Penetrating Shot, not all three.

Jasdoif
2007-11-01, 05:31 PM
Thank you for the correction. The larger bow provides 2.5 damage over the normal one.

Somehow, that .5 increase doesn't change my mind. Maybe I'm stubborn.:smallamused:It makes it better then Weapon Specialization. I don't want Weapon Specialization to get too much credit :smalltongue:

Guy_Whozevl
2007-11-01, 05:32 PM
If you play 3.0, there is a ton of archery madness. The 3.0 Order of the Bow Initiate is golden, it gets ranged Sneak Attack alongside the regular Close Combat Shot stuff. Deepwood Sniper is also sweet for perpetual Keen arrows as well improved threat range. Finally, the Peerless Archer is one of the best classes out there, period. Three words...Ranged Power Attack.

If you play 3.5, see if your DM will allow you to use some of the 3.0 PrCs, they rock.

Lemur
2007-11-01, 05:40 PM
In addition to what Fax said about mounted archery, it's good for scouts, because you can move on your mount and make a full attack (thus getting skirmish damage for a full attack routine). The Mounted Archery feat isn't strictly necessary unless you plan on having your mount take a double move. Since mounts are already pretty fast, this probably won't be strictly necessary most of the time, so you can actually pass on those two feats.

Peerless Archer, from the FR splatbook Silver Marches gives a "power shot" ability (power attack with the bow) attainable around character level 10 or 11. It's considered 3.0, but supposedly the FR splatbooks are more or less compatible with 3.5. I figure it's worth mentioning, since power shot isn't precision damage, thus each arrow from Manyshot will benefit from it, regardless of whether you're using Greater Manyshot or not. Note that you'll be dealing with some hefty penalties with both power shot and manyshot going on. The PrC is also kind of feat intensive, and a lot of archer builds are short on available feats.

Another option that might work is getting a multi-armed race (multi, as in, more that two :smalltongue: ). Supposedly a thri-kreen could wield two bows at once. I think Fax Celestis had some Incarnum trick for getting lots of arms, but I don't know if it would transfer to this purpose or not.

cupkeyk
2007-11-01, 05:43 PM
Except that scouts on mounts, regardless of how that rhymes nicely, get no skirmish damage because scouts must move on their own. it specifically states that being mounted does not trigger skirmish damage.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-01, 05:47 PM
In addition to what Fax said about mounted archery, it's good for scouts, because you can move on your mount and make a full attack (thus getting skirmish damage for a full attack routine). The Mounted Archery feat isn't strictly necessary unless you plan on having your mount take a double move. Since mounts are already pretty fast, this probably won't be strictly necessary most of the time, so you can actually pass on those two feats.
Unfortunately, Scouts are errated to only acquire Skirmish when they actually move, not when their mount does.


Another option that might work is getting a multi-armed race (multi, as in, more that two :smalltongue: ). Supposedly a thri-kreen could wield two bows at once. I think Fax Celestis had some Incarnum trick for getting lots of arms, but I don't know if it would transfer to this purpose or not.

Theoretically, it could. Be a Thri-Kreen, take a two level Totemist dip, shape and bind the Girallon Arms soulmeld, and stock up on potions of girallon's blessing. Now you can wield four bows at once, theoretically. Eight if you want to go with one-hand crossbows.

Also potentially of note is the recently discussed Lady's Gambit (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Lady~s_Gambit,Dragon) feat, which interestingly does apply to ranged attacks.

Frosty
2007-11-01, 05:49 PM
I houserule that Scouts do get Precision damage while mounted.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-01, 05:54 PM
I houserule that Scouts do get Precision damage while mounted.

Then the mounted archer I provided before is much much better. I would also recommend going Mountain Stalker or whatever that PrC is with the accelerated Skirmish damage, especially if you don't go Swift Hunter.

The_Blue_Sorceress
2007-11-01, 06:31 PM
I houserule that Scouts do get Precision damage while mounted.

I house rule that mentioning your own house-rules in a discussion, along with suggesting the incorporation of 3.0 rules, particularly when the OP hasn't indicated that their DM will be making similar house-rules or using earlier edition materials, isn't really contributing anything of value to the conversation. Sorry. I'm just getting sick of hearing about house-rules when they're irrelevant to the discussion.


Ranger 16/Scout4 with swift tracker and other useful feats seems the best idea. I can't find the archery-style barbarian variant you mentioned in my compy of UA, so I don't know how it will stack up. Rogue/Scout swift ambusher also sounds good, if you don't mind the BAB hit. Just remember that it won't do you any good to be able to do a whole pile of damage if you can't hit the target.

Also: What are the bonuses/penalties, if any, for the homebrew half-orc you're considering?

-Blue

Fax Celestis
2007-11-01, 06:37 PM
I can't find the archery-style barbarian variant you mentioned in my compy of UA, so I don't know how it will stack up.

Here you go. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#barbarian)

Rad
2007-11-01, 07:07 PM
I houserule that Scouts do get Precision damage while mounted.

I always interpreted skirmish as having a deceiving body language, allowing you to elude hits and find openings in the enemy's defense. Remember that your opponent is supposed to be actively avoiding your hits even when he's not "acting"; skirmish functions against this ability of his.
Those micro-movements are not something that you can direct a mount into doing.

Lemur
2007-11-01, 07:24 PM
You'd think I'd know better by now to check the errata on these things. Oh well :smallsigh:

On another note, Plunging Shot doesn't look like it's precision-based, which suggests that each arrow in Manyshot would get the bonus. A thri-kreen totemist who relies on his cloak of flying and potions of girallon's blessing certainly sounds interesting, but it may be hard to get past the DM :smallamused: . Also, while a full attack routine with such a character should produce better single target damage than a swift hunter, it will actually be harder to bypass damage reduction due to the way Manyshot works.

goat
2007-11-01, 09:30 PM
Hmmm... Well, the only arrow damage build I ever tried building went a bit odd. I'm working largely from memory here, so I might miss a few things.

It involved starting with a half-ogre, who maximises strength and wisdom. Ignore everything else. He's got a +2 LA, but he's large with no racial HD, and that matters. If you're playing with buy-off, even better.

Train him as a cleric for 8 levels. His patron diety should be something that wields a Longbow AND has the War domain. That'll probably have to be a custom job, but I'm not too hot on dieties, so one of them might fit. If you can't get that, anything with War domain, and some bracers of Archery. Feat-wise, he'll need to pick up zen archery at some point, I forget what else I gave him.

Next, go straight 10 Warhulk, and keep his composite longbow up to date. By the time he's maxed out Warhulk at level 18 (ECL 20), he could have a strength of about 18+6(racial)+4(level)+20(WH)+5(item)+5(tome)=58. A +24 to damage. With a few Wisdom boosters, he might have a grand total of about +10-12 on his attack rolls, maybe a few more with greater bracers of archery.

It's not looking all that great, the damage is pretty good, but you only get 2 attacks per round, and your chance of hitting isn't great.

BUT, he's also capable of casting Divine Power 3 times a day (2+1 from War). That's 8 rounds at a time with his BAB at 18. Giving you a +20-something on attack rolls.

So, that's 24 rounds a day of 4, +24 damage rolls on a 2d6 weapon from up to 110' feet away at no penalty. And when everyone charges in, he can pull out his 3d6 large greatsword with his massive strength bonus.


He's also utterly, utterly useless outside of combat.

Temp
2007-11-02, 12:34 AM
Only to one arrow. Also, since you can't expend psionic focus on multiple sources, you either fuel Psionic Shot, Greater Psionic Shot, or Penetrating Shot, not all three.But if you were to use it with Psicrystal Containment, could you use Greater Psionic Shot and Penetrating Shot? What about two Greater Psionic Shots?
Throw that on top of Greater Manyshot and use Hustle to recharge each round...

And manifest as many augmented Dissolving Weapon powers as possible into your arrows on off-days.

Damage? Pretty good.
Legal? Maybe not.

leperkhaun
2007-11-02, 02:06 AM
rogue, with a level or two in cleric (i think) for golemstrike and grave strike. UMD for a wand of greater invis or a wizard friend.

Darrin
2007-11-02, 08:22 AM
Train him as a cleric for 8 levels. His patron diety should be something that wields a Longbow AND has the War domain. That'll probably have to be a custom job, but I'm not too hot on dieties, so one of them might fit.

Phaulkon, the Suel God of Air (from Greyhawk), has the War domain and his favored weapon is longbow. Details are in the Living Greyhawk Deities guide:

http://www.wizards.com/rpga/downloads/LG_Deities.zip

Corellon Larethian might also work, although I'm not entirely clear what his favored weapon is... also has the Elf domain, which gives PB Shot as a free feat. I think there's a feat somewhere called Elf Blood that might help (although I can't find it anywhere), although with a half-ogre, there's an extremely embarrassed elf somewhere with a long story that probably starts with, "Look, I was *extremely* drunk..."

Shishnarfne
2007-11-02, 09:09 AM
But if you were to use it with Psicrystal Containment, could you use Greater Psionic Shot and Penetrating Shot? What about two Greater Psionic Shots?
Throw that on top of Greater Manyshot and use Hustle to recharge each round...

And manifest as many augmented Dissolving Weapon powers as possible into your arrows on off-days.

Damage? Pretty good.
Legal? Maybe not.

It's the legal bit: Psicrystal Containment says you have to use a separate full-round action to recharge your psicrystal's focus, so you'd only be able to use both (not Greater Psionic Shot twice) once in a battle. Also, psicrystal containment is feat-intensive to gain. Also, the psionic abilities (AFAIK) only apply to one of your arrows. So greater manyshot (if I read it correctly) would get you one really cool arrow and several normal ones.



Probably, the best damage either comes from rapid shot (how many arrows can I launch this round?) or a skirmish build. With appropriate weapons modifiers and situational cases (e.g. flat-footed opponents for a rogue with rapid shot will take probably more damage than any others), it probably will come down to a case-by-case basis. If you're patient, you can crunch the relevant numbers for your own character (or just pick whichever looks cooler to you).

BardicDuelist
2007-11-02, 11:56 AM
Lesser Tiefling Factotum 18/Fighter 2
PBS, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Greater Manyshot, Font of Inspiration x7

That gives you 38 inspiration points. Cunning strike damage lasts for a full round, as does the bonus for cunning surge.

You make take three extra standard actions (costing 12 IP for Cunning surge) and fire 12 arrows. You spend one IP to get Int to attack, and annother to get Int to damage. You thus get +24d6+4 damage on every arrow. That gives you +288d6+48 damage a round.

Even with this build, you aren't a one trick pony either.

(Proof a Factotums are really good for anything).

Also, because you can cast some arcane spells, it is easy to make the damage less situational that rogue SA or scout Skirmish.

Temp
2007-11-02, 01:05 PM
My main question was whether manifesting Dissolving Weapon powers on arrows on off-days is legal or not... That's would potentially be a lot of damage.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-02, 01:34 PM
My main question was whether manifesting Dissolving Weapon powers on arrows on off-days is legal or not... That's would potentially be a lot of damage.

You can, but two things: 1. Multiple applications of the same power to one arrow do not stack; 2. The damage is only good for one use.

Admittedly, point 2 is not a very strong one, as arrows are only good for one use too.

Temp
2007-11-02, 01:49 PM
You can, but two things: 1. Multiple applications of the same power to one arrow do not stack; 2. The damage is only good for one use.

Admittedly, point 2 is not a very strong one, as arrows are only good for one use too.
So a Psychic Warrior coming off of a couple weeks' break can have (4d6+1d6/2 PW levels above 3rd) Acid damage on each of his arrows?

That's pretty good.

But if he were to give these arrows to his friend, the Deadeye Shotting Greater Manyshotting Swift Ambusher, the damage output would be pretty incredible.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-02, 01:54 PM
So a Psychic Warrior coming off of a couple weeks' break can have (4d6+1d6/2 PW levels above 3rd) Acid damage on each of his arrows?

That's pretty good.

But if he were to give these arrows to his friend, the Deadeye Shotting Greater Manyshotting Swift Ambusher, the damage output would be pretty incredible.

Yes, but that would also take something that most adventurers have in short supply: time.

BizzaroStormy
2007-11-02, 02:34 PM
Large race with a Large Great Crossbow

ryuteki
2007-11-02, 03:17 PM
Never seen a Bloodstorm Blade chuck a half-dozen greatswords at a target with full Power Attack/Shock Trooper, eh?

I must be missing something... Vs a single target, Shock Trooper just adds to your Armor Class, right? What's so amazing about that?

cupkeyk
2007-11-02, 03:20 PM
I must be missing something... Vs a single target, Shock Trooper just adds to your Armor Class, right? What's so amazing about that?

Shocktrooper subtracts from your AC and adds that to your PA?

Fax Celestis
2007-11-02, 03:26 PM
Shocktrooper subtracts from your AC and adds that to your PA?

Yes, at a 2:1 ratio. Adding Leap Attack makes it 3:1.

ryuteki
2007-11-02, 04:22 PM
Oh? *rereads Shock trooper*

*rereads it again*

OH! *blush* I've been completely misreading it... I thought you were losing bonus damage and gaining AC. It seemed counterproductive. :) Learn something new every day I suppose...

Stam
2007-11-02, 04:33 PM
Anything with Rapid Shot, Improved Rapid Shot, and the Splitting weapon special ability (+3 equivalent bonus).

Even if you've got nothing else on that, toss in Haste? That's six arrows at your full BAB, plus two each for your iteratives.

nobodylovesyou4
2007-11-02, 06:38 PM
Large race with a Large Great Crossbow

how many times have me and you discussed that great crossbow is crappy? and a large character almost always has a level adjustment, and lets not even go into the hd...

Temp
2007-11-02, 06:41 PM
Large race with a Large Great CrossbowYou'd need to get Monkey Grip and Expansion in there for maximum effect. Would it be good? Not really.

But that crossbow would be the size of a locomotive.

cupkeyk
2007-11-02, 06:44 PM
The sad thing is that although how crappy crossbows are, crossbow sniper which improves your skirmish and sneak attack range is only applicable to crossbows, the damage can still be augmented with skirmish/sneak dice, dead eye, weapon enhancements. This compensates for never being able to apply strength damage, which can now be set aside as a dump stat.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-02, 06:46 PM
The sad thing is that although how crappy crossbows are, crossbow sniper which improves your skirmish and sneak attack range is only applicable to crossbows, the damage can still be augmented with skirmish/sneak dice, dead eye, weapon enhancements. This compensates for never being able to apply strength damage, which can now be set aside as a dump stat.

Yeah, but you also give up Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and iterative attacks. I'd rather get more chances to hit than slightly longer range.

cupkeyk
2007-11-02, 06:53 PM
Yeah, but you also give up Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and iterative attacks. I'd rather get more chances to hit than slightly longer range.

Hence my use of the word sad, as it is in fact, sad. It is still useful for a sniping assassin who has death attack.

nobodylovesyou4
2007-11-02, 07:05 PM
The sad thing is that although how crappy crossbows are, crossbow sniper which improves your skirmish and sneak attack range is only applicable to crossbows, the damage can still be augmented with skirmish/sneak dice, dead eye, weapon enhancements. This compensates for never being able to apply strength damage, which can now be set aside as a dump stat.

not so much crossbows, as great crossbow; it sucks more (as well as heavy) because its a full round reload.