Power Gaming build article I wrote

[PancakeMaster80]

I wrote a build article and would love to get folk's read on my ideas. I'd copy/paste it here but I don't think the formatting would hold up.

https://mythcreants.com/blog/four-more-fun-dd-builds-for-power-gaming/

[tsuyoshikentsu]

1. 14 levels of Barbarian are objectively worse than 14 levels of Druid, especially as they contain the Barbarian's worst levels but not its capstone.

2. This build's entire gimmick is worse than just going straight Hexblade and casting Eldritch Blast.

3. Nonfuctional. Armor of Agathys specifically says "If a creature hits you with a melee attack while you have these hit points...", emphasis mine, and temporary HP don't stack.

4. This build is bafflingly complex for a trick that can be simply replicated by giving a Warlock the Golgari Agent background feature--or, taking into account the UA Class Features article which is almost certainly going to be included in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, by playing any Warlock at all. Also, for much of the character's life it is completely outclassed by a single casting of Animate Object targeting ten copper pieces.

[MaxWilson]

1. 14 levels of Barbarian are objectively worse than 14 levels of Druid, especially as they contain the Barbarian's worst levels but not its capstone.

It's only got 5 levels of Barbarian actually, not 14.


3. Nonfuctional. Armor of Agathys specifically says "If a creature hits you with a melee attack while you have these hit points...", emphasis mine, and temporary HP don't stack.

Irrelevant. Arcane Ward isn't temp HP.

[Kane0]

4. This build is bafflingly complex for a trick that can be simply replicated by giving a Warlock the Golgari Agent background feature

This was specifically addressed in the notes as not all DMs would approve, similar to non-elf Bladesingers and such.

[PancakeMaster80]

1. 14 levels of Barbarian are objectively worse than 14 levels of Druid, especially as they contain the Barbarian's worst levels but not its capstone.

The build never takes 14 levels of any class, and it's designed for mid levels as I point out in the article, so I'm not sure what your point is here.


2. This build's entire gimmick is worse than just going straight Hexblade and casting Eldritch Blast.

Are you referring to the hexstaff? Because the paladin inclusions make this build far more survivable and allows for more damage output than a pure hexblade warlock.


3. Nonfuctional. Armor of Agathys specifically says "If a creature hits you with a melee attack while you have these hit points...", emphasis mine, and temporary HP don't stack.

As someone mentioned Arcane Ward doesn't give temp hp so it stacks fine with Armor of Agathys.


4. This build is bafflingly complex for a trick that can be simply replicated by giving a Warlock the Golgari Agent background feature--or, taking into account the UA Class Features article which is almost certainly going to be included in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, by playing any Warlock at all. Also, for much of the character's life it is completely outclassed by a single casting of Animate Object targeting ten copper pieces.

Also as already mentioned I'm not using the high powered race variants of backgrounds from specific settings books as they are often banned. I'm also not using UA content is it is not official or properly balanced. As for damage, at 9th level when Animate Object is first gained this build is dealing between 123 and 207 average damage against most targets per round, so I'm not sure if the 10 copper pieces can keep up.

[PancakeMaster80]

This was specifically addressed in the notes as not all DMs would approve, similar to non-elf Bladesingers and such.

Also the Undead Thralls feature adds a massive amount of damage which no other class can keep up with for mass Skeleton army.

[MaxWilson]

Also as already mentioned I'm not using the high powered race variants of backgrounds from specific settings books as they are often banned. I'm also not using UA content is it is not official or properly balanced. As for damage, at 9th level when Animate Object is first gained this build is dealing between 123 and 207 average damage against most targets per round, so I'm not sure if the 10 copper pieces can keep up.

I've been trying to think of something to say because you put a lot of effort into this article, but... it's hard to think of anything because frankly I don't see anything truly novel, but I do see a lot of finicky extra complexity. I'll comment on the Master Summoner specifically because you're making a point of it here:

(1) Yuan-ti is explicitly optional content, contingent on DM approval. Unlike Goblin, Bugbear, Orc, etc. it has never appeared outside of the Volo's "Monstrous Adventurers" section. If you're trying to avoid controversial, might-not-be-allowed content, I would stay away from Yuan-ti almost as much as I'd stay away from UA and Ravnica.

(2) As you note, you'll have a fairly rough levels 1-8, which is a HUUUUGE chunk of the game. You spend your first 6 levels as an AC 12 Int 13 Con 12 wizard with merely average mobility, burning Misty Steps and Shield spells to stay alive. At level 7-8 your AC barely edges up to 14, and it's not until level 8 that you acquire an effective personal attack, and only at level 9 do you finally get a good AC.

(3) By RAW, Goodberry does not work with Disciple of Life because Goodberry is an instantaneous spell which merely creates berries. By the time you heal anyone, the spell is already over. Goodberry no more synergizes with Disciple of Life than Animate Dead (also instantaneous) synergizes with Grim Harvest.

If they did both work, Grim Harvest would be light years more powerful, because you'd regain 9 HP or more every time you killed someone with Animate Dead, i.e. several times a round if your DM is counting downstream effects of instantaneous spells as being caused by the spell. Even better if you can ever Clone an (N)PC, and now every time that individual kills any creature, hostile or not, you regain 24 HP, or 27 HP if you cast Clone with a 9th level slot. Even before Clone comes online, you can buy a bunch of cheap chickens and have your skeletons kill a chicken to give you 9 HP whenever you need more HP. See why treating downstream effects of instantaneous spells as "caused by XYZ spell" is ridiculous?

(4) You could massively improve the early game by swapping Life Cleric to level 2 instead of level 9, so that you would at least have the AC to use Poison Spray in combat. (You write Acid Spray but I assume that's just a typo.) It's got only a 10' range, and with 30' movement and AC 12 and Con 12, using Poison Spray at 10' range is suicidal.

(5) I'm underwhelmed by the Warlock levels and Ranger shenanigans. You've already labelled this guy the Master Summoner and you're already relying on animated dead for the bulk of your damage, with a side order of healing: why not just make this guy a Jorasco (Mark of Healing) Necromancer X/Life Cleric 1, with a Mounted Combatant feat for mobility (and e.g. Phantom Steed as a ritual)? You'll be doing crazy amounts of damage with your skeletons, and healing crazy amounts of damage with Aura of Vitality and eventually at-will Cure Wounds (via Spell Mastery at Wizard 18). You'll miss out on the ability to amass arbitrarily huge skeletons armies by repeatedly resting and casting Animate Dead every short rest, but who really cares? You normally can't bring arbitrarily huge undead armies into play anyway, due to logistics and legality concerns, and if you wanted to do so, high-level Necromancers are better than warlocks anyway due to (1) more undead HP from more Necromancer levels, and (2) using long-term spells like upcast Mass Suggestion and Geas on super-wights created via Create Undead, instead of relying on continuously recasting short-term spells like Animate Dead.

Plus then you can do the regular wizard Planar Binding stuff, which seems fitting for a Master Summoner. At higher levels there's a good chance you switch to Planar Bound Elementals and mostly give up on the undead anyway, except for maybe a small squad of a dozen or so skeleton archers and a beefy high-CR undead like a Wraith or a Nightwalker or Mummy Lord (whatever you can scrape up) that you captured with your 14th level feature. Elementals tend to have better mobility, and frankly too many summons makes gameplay boring, especially for the other players/PCs. (Even from an in-character standpoint, making your party feel redundant is a good way to wind up alone, which is a good way to die.)

I frankly don't even see why you're interested in Gift of the Ever-Living Ones, because Aura of Vitality + Disciple of Life (or even just Grim Harvest + Vampiric Touch + a cage full of chickens) is so much overkill that you'll reach full HP whenever you want to anyway.

TL;DR you'd be better off as an almost-pure Necromancer, either Jorasco Necromancer X/Life Cleric 1 if you're into healing, or maybe Yuan-ti Necromancer X/Hexblade 2 if you're more into personal blasting and magic resistance.

[Christew]

I've been trying to think of something to say because you put a lot of effort into this article, but... it's hard to think of anything because frankly I don't see anything truly novel, but I do see a lot of finicky extra complexity.
Seconded. This is clearly a labor of love, and I am always glad for more resources and perspectives in the optimization game, but I similarly find little to comment on beyond nitpicking (which feels largely unproductive).

[MaxWilson]

Also as already mentioned I'm not using the high powered race variants of backgrounds from specific settings books as they are often banned. I'm also not using UA content is it is not official or properly balanced. As for damage, at 9th level when Animate Object is first gained this build is dealing between 123 and 207 average damage against most targets per round, so I'm not sure if the 10 copper pieces can keep up.

Oh, one more minor nitpick: at 9th level, you've got 2 warlock levels (2 x 1st level Pact Magic) and 7 levels of cleric/wizard (4 3 3 1 spellcasting slots, plus an extra 3rd from Arcane Recovery). I'm fairly sure that you max out at 4 x 4 + 1 x 6 = 22 skeletons, not 24.

[Unoriginal]

Do a lot of people consider animating undead or objects to be summoning?

[Kane0]

I know that a lot of Diablo III players make a big point of the distinction...

[MaxWilson]

Do a lot of people consider animating undead or objects to be summoning?

Sure, for purposes of Internet discussions I would use "summoning" as an umbrella term for anything which adds allies to the party (as opposed to co-opting enemies to act as allies). It's not technically summoning from an in-world perspective, but especially for Tiny Servants (where you're not bottlenecked by corpses) they are close enough to the same thing that it's not worth drawing a distinction.

It sounds like you'd draw a distinction which would make "summoning" refer to something else. What distinction would you draw?

[Unoriginal]

Sure, for purposes of Internet discussions I would use "summoning" as an umbrella term for anything which adds allies to the party (as opposed to co-opting enemies to act as allies). It's not technically summoning from an in-world perspective, but especially for Tiny Servants (where you're not bottlenecked by corpses) they are close enough to the same thing that it's not worth drawing a distinction.

It sounds like you'd draw a distinction which would make "summoning" refer to something else. What distinction would you draw?

I mean, I'd say there is a distinction to be made between summoning, which make an ally appear then disappear when the spell is over or the ally die, and puppeteering spells like Animate Dead or Animate Object, which requires you to have a valid target with you.

I agree that in the case of Tiny Servants it's a distinction without a difference, as it's very unlikely there is no valid target for Tiny Servant in an adventurer's equipment. I guess it'd matter if the PCs get separated from most of the equipment, if they're captured for example, but outside of that...

[Christew]

I mean, I'd say there is a distinction to be made between summoning, which make an ally appear then disappear when the spell is over or the ally die, and puppeteering spells like Animate Dead or Animate Object, which requires you to have a valid target with you.

I agree that in the case of Tiny Servants it's a distinction without a difference, as it's very unlikely there is no valid target for Tiny Servant in an adventurer's equipment. I guess it'd matter if the PCs get separated from most of the equipment, if they're captured for example, but outside of that...
So, umbrella term minionmancy includes both summoning and animating.

[MaxWilson]

I mean, I'd say there is a distinction to be made between summoning, which make an ally appear then disappear when the spell is over or the ally die, and puppeteering spells like Animate Dead or Animate Object, which requires you to have a valid target with you.

I agree that in the case of Tiny Servants it's a distinction without a difference, as it's very unlikely there is no valid target for Tiny Servant in an adventurer's equipment. I guess it'd matter if the PCs get separated from most of the equipment, if they're captured for example, but outside of that...

I think the key distinction I'd draw here isn't between summoning/something else, but by stackability: spells which are bottlenecked only by spell slots vs. by logistical factors. Conjure Elemental + Planar Binding is technically a "summoning" combination from an in-world magical theory perspective, but just as Animate Dead is bottlenecked by the supply of available corpses, Conjure Elemental + Planar Binding is bottlenecked by the supply of available gems.

In contrast, if you can get Tiny Servant on a Warlock 9+, you can spam dozens of animated leaves/pebbles/whatnot even though it's technically an animation spell, not really a "summoning" spell from a magical theory perspective.

I recently sketched a not-complex-but-fairly-powerful party idea based around summons:

Three Two-In-Ones: 3 House Lyrandar (Mark of Storms) Hexblade Chainlocks who spam Conjure Elemental and then blast things with Warlock invocations, and maybe occasionally throwing down a Forcecage or True Polymorph.

One Ultimate Summoner: 1 House Jorasco (Mark of Healing) Artillerist 3/Necromancer 6/Celestialock 11 who conjures up a bunch of Tiny Servants and/or Skeletal Archers (depending on humanoid corpse availability and the urgency of the situation), passes out temp HP to everybody with an Artillerist turret, and then blasts things with Warlock invocations, as well as supplying the occasional Rope Trick whenever all the warlocks feel like regaining spell slots.

At any given time, you've got 3 Elementals tanking and/or burning or providing advantage through restraining, 3 invisible Sprite familiars scouting and/or negotiating via Voice of the Chain Master, 3 Specters also scouting through walls and/or killing, possibly assisted by Sprites and Air Elementals, 4 Eldritch blasters with near-Sharpshooter levels of damage focusing fire on dangerous backline targets, and easily 5-15 Tiny Servants with bonus temp HP and blindsight (who benefit just as much as the warlocks do from Darkness spells, which are probably cast by the Jorasco dude since his concentration isn't busy with elementals) or a handful of skeleton archers or zombies with Undead Thralls bonuses to damage. And you've got a highly-efficient Aura of Vitality healer on tap in case any PCs actually get wounded.

I bet you could take a bunch of relative D&D newbies and teach them to walk all over a 200% normal adventuring day full of Deadly x3 encounters using this party. Just teach them to summon a new elemental after combat whenever one of them dies or goes hostile and has to be put down, and to take Rope Trick breaks as necessary to recharge spell slots.


I know that a lot of Diablo III players make a big point of the distinction...

Is the difference important in the context of Diablo III?

[Kane0]

Is the difference important in the context of Diablo III?

I'm not well-versed, but I think it largely comes down to summoning being time-limited minions being conjured out of nowhere, and raising the dead creating permanent minions out of corpses. I believe it's a big deal for some of them because of the differences in these approaches to minion characters between D2 and D3.

[PancakeMaster80]

I've been trying to think of something to say because you put a lot of effort into this article, but... it's hard to think of anything because frankly I don't see anything truly novel, but I do see a lot of finicky extra complexity. I'll comment on the Master Summoner specifically because you're making a point of it here:

Well I appreciate the effort. I know that there are pretty much no truly novel ideas left in the optimization community given how long the game has been out and the limited number of actually effective build choices. However, outside that community there are a lot of DnD players who haven't seen this stuff so I'm happy to share my spin on it including actual math, something that most build posts/videos I've seen don't include.


(1) Yuan-ti is explicitly optional content, contingent on DM approval. Unlike Goblin, Bugbear, Orc, etc. it has never appeared outside of the Volo's "Monstrous Adventurers" section. If you're trying to avoid controversial, might-not-be-allowed content, I would stay away from Yuan-ti almost as much as I'd stay away from UA and Ravnica.

Good point, I hadn't considered that source, thankfully the ancestry choice isn't super important for the build's core functionality so anyone trying to use it can swap out to another cha +2 race if their GM doesn't like the Yuan-ti.


(2) As you note, you'll have a fairly rough levels 1-8, which is a HUUUUGE chunk of the game. You spend your first 6 levels as an AC 12 Int 13 Con 12 wizard with merely average mobility, burning Misty Steps and Shield spells to stay alive. At level 7-8 your AC barely edges up to 14, and it's not until level 8 that you acquire an effective personal attack, and only at level 9 do you finally get a good AC.

The build outputs quite a bit of damage once it hits 5, so I'd say it's weak 1-4, which does still suck if that's where your campaign spends a lot of its time. Unfortunately, it's hard to account for all starting points when making a build, most campaigns I've played in or run start at levels 3, 4. or 5, ending at 9-11. By those bounds the build would be fine for most of the campaign. However, if the campaign goes from 1-7, then I would either not play an Animate Dead focused build or at least heavily rework it to make its


(3) By RAW, Goodberry does not work with Disciple of Life because Goodberry is an instantaneous spell which merely creates berries. By the time you heal anyone, the spell is already over. Goodberry no more synergizes with Disciple of Life than Animate Dead (also instantaneous) synergizes with Grim Harvest.

If they did both work, Grim Harvest would be light years more powerful, because you'd regain 9 HP or more every time you killed someone with Animate Dead, i.e. several times a round if your DM is counting downstream effects of instantaneous spells as being caused by the spell. Even better if you can ever Clone an (N)PC, and now every time that individual kills any creature, hostile or not, you regain 24 HP, or 27 HP if you cast Clone with a 9th level slot. Even before Clone comes online, you can buy a bunch of cheap chickens and have your skeletons kill a chicken to give you 9 HP whenever you need more HP. See why treating downstream effects of instantaneous spells as "caused by XYZ spell" is ridiculous?

I'm going off the ruling on Goodberry from this 2015 post, if a GM doesn't agree with that then anyone using the build should shift away from it.
https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-answers-august-2015


(4) You could massively improve the early game by swapping Life Cleric to level 2 instead of level 9, so that you would at least have the AC to use Poison Spray in combat. (You write Acid Spray but I assume that's just a typo.) It's got only a 10' range, and with 30' movement and AC 12 and Con 12, using Poison Spray at 10' range is suicidal.

You could totally swap the cleric level earlier, I chose to get the build to actually start doing damage as early as possible, however if survivability is 1st thing on your mind then yes that's a great choice. You're right that's a typo, I'll go fix it =P. As for how dangerous Poison Spray's range is, I haven't seen characters doing stuff like that have much trouble, but if that turns out to a big issue then just bump the cleric level earlier.


(5) I'm underwhelmed by the Warlock levels and Ranger shenanigans. You've already labelled this guy the Master Summoner and you're already relying on animated dead for the bulk of your damage, with a side order of healing: why not just make this guy a Jorasco (Mark of Healing) Necromancer X/Life Cleric 1, with a Mounted Combatant feat for mobility (and e.g. Phantom Steed as a ritual)? You'll be doing crazy amounts of damage with your skeletons, and healing crazy amounts of damage with Aura of Vitality and eventually at-will Cure Wounds (via Spell Mastery at Wizard 18). You'll miss out on the ability to amass arbitrarily huge skeletons armies by repeatedly resting and casting Animate Dead every short rest, but who really cares? You normally can't bring arbitrarily huge undead armies into play anyway, due to logistics and legality concerns, and if you wanted to do so, high-level Necromancers are better than warlocks anyway due to (1) more undead HP from more Necromancer levels, and (2) using long-term spells like upcast Mass Suggestion and Geas on super-wights created via Create Undead, instead of relying on continuously recasting short-term spells like Animate Dead.

Plus then you can do the regular wizard Planar Binding stuff, which seems fitting for a Master Summoner. At higher levels there's a good chance you switch to Planar Bound Elementals and mostly give up on the undead anyway, except for maybe a small squad of a dozen or so skeleton archers and a beefy high-CR undead like a Wraith or a Nightwalker or Mummy Lord (whatever you can scrape up) that you captured with your 14th level feature. Elementals tend to have better mobility, and frankly too many summons makes gameplay boring, especially for the other players/PCs. (Even from an in-character standpoint, making your party feel redundant is a good way to wind up alone, which is a good way to die.)

I assume the Mark of Healing is from Ebberon, if so I'm avoiding any of the sub-ancestries from that content as they're incredibly powerful and often not allowed. The build you suggest also sounds good, but I wanted to have more skeletons, hence the warlock levels. The ranger is needed if I want goodberry without sacrificing my AC, plus it's always fun to fit a bad class like ranger into a build. As for having more skeleton HP, the amount of HP added by having more bone friends was better in my eyes, and since the build is spending all its high level slots on summoning, having higher level options didn't interest me. There are certainly more balanced versions of a summoner that save some of their big spells slots, but that's not what I was trying to build.


I frankly don't even see why you're interested in Gift of the Ever-Living Ones, because Aura of Vitality + Disciple of Life (or even just Grim Harvest + Vampiric Touch + a cage full of chickens) is so much overkill that you'll reach full HP whenever you want to anyway.

It's a good invocation. It's definitely not key to the build, but since I could grab it I'll happily do so.


TL;DR you'd be better off as an almost-pure Necromancer, either Jorasco Necromancer X/Life Cleric 1 if you're into healing, or maybe Yuan-ti Necromancer X/Hexblade 2 if you're more into personal blasting and magic resistance.

But I wanted to summon max bone friends and stack all their damage. The builds you suggest sound good as well, but they're trying for different things than I was. Anyway, thanks for the feedback, always good to hear what other folks think =).

[PancakeMaster80]

Oh, one more minor nitpick: at 9th level, you've got 2 warlock levels (2 x 1st level Pact Magic) and 7 levels of cleric/wizard (4 3 3 1 spellcasting slots, plus an extra 3rd from Arcane Recovery). I'm fairly sure that you max out at 4 x 4 + 1 x 6 = 22 skeletons, not 24.

Aww beans, looks like you're right, gonna have to fix that. Thanks for letting me know =).

[Andrwrwn]

How is the hexadin casting Shield with his hands full before level 18? In general, I'd have thought Warcaster is the first feat you want if you dip Hexblade, not the last.

[Corran]

How is the hexadin casting Shield with his hands full before level 18? In general, I'd have thought Warcaster is the first feat you want if you dip Hexblade, not the last.
By dropping the weapon off turn (as a free action) and picking it back up during his turn with an object interaction.

[Andrwrwn]

By dropping the weapon off turn (as a free action) and picking it back up during his turn with an object interaction.

I'm lost (and genuinely interested as I'm going to be playing a hexadin when current campaign ends). Shield is a triggered reaction and doesn't allow you to do other things like dropping your weapon or retrieving it. Dropping a weapon is something you can do on your turn. Are you dropping your weapon for the entire initiative round and hoping nobody picks it up or kicks it away?

[sithlordnergal]

(3) By RAW, Goodberry does not work with Disciple of Life because Goodberry is an instantaneous spell which merely creates berries. By the time you heal anyone, the spell is already over. Goodberry no more synergizes with Disciple of Life than Animate Dead (also instantaneous) synergizes with Grim Harvest.

A small correction for you, according to Sage Advice Disciple Of Life does work with Goodberry. Here's the direct quote:

If I’m a cleric/druid with the Disciple of Life feature, does the goodberry spell benefit from the feature? Yes. The Disciple of Life feature would make each berry restore 4 hit points, instead of 1, assuming you cast goodberry with a 1st-level spell slot.


So yes, you can cast Goodberry with Disciple Of Life and have them be even more effective. Its a pretty tried and true method used by some Druid/Clerics in AL, and they can only use RAW.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I'm lost (and genuinely interested as I'm going to be playing a hexadin when current campaign ends). Shield is a triggered reaction and doesn't allow you to do other things like dropping your weapon or retrieving it. Dropping a weapon is something you can do on your turn. Are you dropping your weapon for the entire initiative round and hoping nobody picks it up or kicks it away?

It is not hard to believe the weapon is tied to the paladin.
Every soldier I know have his weapon tied to him so in time of need he can just release his hands to be used.

[Corran]

I'm lost (and genuinely interested as I'm going to be playing a hexadin when current campaign ends). Shield is a triggered reaction and doesn't allow you to do other things like dropping your weapon or retrieving it.
Presumably you can take a free action at any time you want during combat, so just right before taking your reaction seems legit. Though I wouldn't know for sure as I've never really put that much thought to it, and that's because..


Dropping a weapon is something you can do on your turn. Are you dropping your weapon for the entire initiative round and hoping nobody picks it up or kicks it away?
... as you point out there are a few issues with this whole process (especially if you are wielding a magic or otherwise buffed weapon). It might work decently if you are carrying with you a seethe(?) of quarterstaffs or spears, but imo there's no need for all of this cause I'd take warcaster sooner anyway (BB OA's are good to have, and they combine decently enough with the CD and in some cases with the darkness spell too). And despite lacking a bit in the concentration oath spell department, you still have some good concentration spells that would profit from the concentration boost anyway.

[MaxWilson]

A small correction for you, according to Sage Advice Disciple Of Life does work with Goodberry. Here's the direct quote:

If I’m a cleric/druid with the Disciple of Life feature, does the goodberry spell benefit from the feature? Yes. The Disciple of Life feature would make each berry restore 4 hit points, instead of 1, assuming you cast goodberry with a 1st-level spell slot.

So yes, you can cast Goodberry with Disciple Of Life and have them be even more effective. Its a pretty tried and true method used by some Druid/Clerics in AL, and they can only use RAW.

If Sage Advice were correct, that would imply that Grim Harvest works with Animate Dead, Revivify, and Clone. They are all instantaneous spells.

[sithlordnergal]

If Sage Advice were correct, that would imply that Grim Harvest works with Animate Dead, Revivify, and Clone. They are all instantaneous spells.

Revivify and Clone wouldn't work at all, because Grim Harvest specifically states "Once per turn when you kill one or more creatures with a spell of 1st level or higher, you regain hit points equal to twice the spell's level, or three times its level if the spell belongs to the School of Necromancy. You don't gain this benefit for killing constructs or undead." You can't kill a creature with the Clone spell, nor can you kill a creature with Revivify.

There could be an argument made for Animate dead, however its only once per turn so you'd only gain between 9 and 27 hp depending on the slot used, provided the undead you create kill a creature that round. Also, there is a difference between a creature and an object like Goodberry. That said, I see no reason not to allow Grim Harvest to work with Animate Dead. You're still only gaining that HP once per round, and only if your undead kill something.

[Unoriginal]

Grim Harvest wouldn't work if you cast Haste on the Fighter and they use the extra attack to kill an enemy, right? It's not the spell doing the killing, it's just helping the one who does it.

But would it work if you cast Dragon Breath on someone else and they used it to kill an enemy?

[PancakeMaster80]

I'm lost (and genuinely interested as I'm going to be playing a hexadin when current campaign ends). Shield is a triggered reaction and doesn't allow you to do other things like dropping your weapon or retrieving it. Dropping a weapon is something you can do on your turn. Are you dropping your weapon for the entire initiative round and hoping nobody picks it up or kicks it away?

RAW the way you'd do this without taking War Caster is by dropping your weapon at the end of your turn and picking it up at the beginning of the next one. In reality this depends a lot on what your GM rules is okay. I've never actually seen anyone enforce the use of dropping/picking up your weapon to cast somatic spells. If your GM likes to kick weapons away if you try to drop them I'd take Warcaster very early in the character build to remedy the problem.

[PancakeMaster80]

Revivify and Clone wouldn't work at all, because Grim Harvest specifically states "Once per turn when you kill one or more creatures with a spell of 1st level or higher, you regain hit points equal to twice the spell's level, or three times its level if the spell belongs to the School of Necromancy. You don't gain this benefit for killing constructs or undead." You can't kill a creature with the Clone spell, nor can you kill a creature with Revivify.

There could be an argument made for Animate dead, however its only once per turn so you'd only gain between 9 and 27 hp depending on the slot used, provided the undead you create kill a creature that round. Also, there is a difference between a creature and an object like Goodberry. That said, I see no reason not to allow Grim Harvest to work with Animate Dead. You're still only gaining that HP once per round, and only if your undead kill something.

As a GM I'd allow Grim Harvest to work with Animate dead, let the wizard actually gain some benefits from that feature's necromancy clause.

[Guy Lombard-O]

RAW the way you'd do this without taking War Caster is by dropping your weapon at the end of your turn and picking it up at the beginning of the next one. In reality this depends a lot on what your GM rules is okay. I've never actually seen anyone enforce the use of dropping/picking up your weapon to cast somatic spells. If your GM likes to kick weapons away if you try to drop them I'd take Warcaster very early in the character build to remedy the problem.

Or you can just sheathe/unsheathe it and only Shield every other turn, until you can pick up War Caster. Not as good in a really rough fight, but it's better than loosing your weapon.

[KorvinStarmast]

(3) By RAW, Goodberry does not work with Disciple of Life because Goodberry is an instantaneous spell which merely creates berries. By the time you heal anyone, the spell is already over. Goodberry no more synergizes with Disciple of Life than Animate Dead (also instantaneous) synergizes with Grim Harvest. The Sage Advice Compendium and Adventurer's League do not concur with your interpretation. (And I suspect we've been over this before and it belongs in that other thread).

Back on topic for the OP in general, I concur with your general assessment of "much complexity for little payoff."

[PancakeMaster80]

Or you can just sheathe/unsheathe it and only Shield every other turn, until you can pick up War Caster. Not as good in a really rough fight, but it's better than loosing your weapon.

Another way to solve it for sure =).

[PancakeMaster80]

Back on topic for the OP in general, I concur with your general assessment of "much complexity for little payoff."

Spending as much time as I do fiddling with builds certainly isn't for everyone, but I'll take every small gain I can get.

[MaxWilson]

Spending as much time as I do fiddling with builds certainly isn't for everyone, but I'll take every small gain I can get.

I honestly think you'd be better off at 20th level as a Necro 19/Life Cleric 1 (or Forge Cleric for better AC) with a battalion of 300 super-wights (19,200 total HP, 600 longbow attacks per round) who require about 35 Mass Suggestion XI spells per year to keep under your control, than as a Ranger 2/Life Cleric 1/Necro 6/Feylock 11 with a battalion of 384 super-skeletons (5396 total HP, 384 longbow attacks per round) who require 16 hours of your attention every day to cast the 48 Animate Dead V spells needed to keep them from going berserk. Not to mention that you'll be far better off at in-between levels 7-14 when your undead armies are smaller than the Necro/Cleric's armies because your warlock levels aren't even capable of casting Animate Dead yet, and that you'll have access to actual 9th level spells so you can do stuff like turn into an Adult Silver Shadow Dragon and create arbitrary numbers of Shadow minions from enemy troops with your breath weapon.

[kazaryu]

I honestly think you'd be better off at 20th level as a Necro 19/Life Cleric 1 (or Forge Cleric for better AC) with a battalion of 300 super-wights (19,200 total HP, 600 longbow attacks per round) who require about 35 Mass Suggestion XI spells per year to keep under your control, than as a Ranger 2/Life Cleric 1/Necro 6/Feylock 11 with a battalion of 384 super-skeletons (5396 total HP, 384 longbow attacks per round) who require 16 hours of your attention every day to cast the 48 Animate Dead V spells needed to keep them from going berserk. Not to mention that you'll be far better off at in-between levels 7-14 when your undead armies are smaller than the Necro/Cleric's armies because your warlock levels aren't even capable of casting Animate Dead yet, and that you'll have access to actual 9th level spells so you can do stuff like turn into an Adult Silver Shadow Dragon and create arbitrary numbers of Shadow minions from enemy troops with your breath weapon.

Sure, if you can find a dm that would let 'follow my orders always' be allowed as a 'course of action'. Most would probably call bs.

Now you could potentially coordinate a single assault doing that. But mass suggestion doesnt explucitly allow you to create thralls

[MaxWilson]

Sure, if you can find a dm that would let 'follow my orders always' be allowed as a 'course of action'. Most would probably call bs.

Now you could potentially coordinate a single assault doing that. But mass suggestion doesnt explucitly allow you to create thralls

"Join my evil Legion of mercenaries". Not thralls, employees. You can't order them to do suicidal things, but you also don't have any reason to do so.

You can also perma-Geas them with Geas IX to make sure they can't attack you. (It doesn't even really matter what Geas you pick but it might as well be "obey your superior officers in the Legion, subject to Legion regulations.")

If you need a small number of minions whom you _can_ order to do suicidal things, you can always create a small handful of skeletons or zombies via Animate Dead or Finger of Death, but for serious stuff you want the Legion because they're tougher AND smarter, can take the initiative instead of needing you to babysit them.

(It doesn't hurt to have a Demiplane stuffed full of hundreds of now-uncontrolled skeletons and zombies, though, just in case you ever need a no-concentration Zombiepocalypse.)

[PancakeMaster80]

I honestly think you'd be better off at 20th level as a Necro 19/Life Cleric 1 (or Forge Cleric for better AC) with a battalion of 300 super-wights (19,200 total HP, 600 longbow attacks per round) who require about 35 Mass Suggestion XI spells per year to keep under your control, than as a Ranger 2/Life Cleric 1/Necro 6/Feylock 11 with a battalion of 384 super-skeletons (5396 total HP, 384 longbow attacks per round) who require 16 hours of your attention every day to cast the 48 Animate Dead V spells needed to keep them from going berserk. Not to mention that you'll be far better off at in-between levels 7-14 when your undead armies are smaller than the Necro/Cleric's armies because your warlock levels aren't even capable of casting Animate Dead yet, and that you'll have access to actual 9th level spells so you can do stuff like turn into an Adult Silver Shadow Dragon and create arbitrary numbers of Shadow minions from enemy troops with your breath weapon.

I would not consider that build likely to succeed as it relies on some liberal interpretations of Mass Suggestion. If you do have a GM that allows this, then awesome, sounds like a fun time, but I try to keep my builds within what would be allowed at most tables.

[KorvinStarmast]

Spending as much time as I do fiddling with builds certainly isn't for everyone, but I'll take every small gain I can get. It is my opinion that spreading MC out over four classes provides an illusion of power that won't be manifested in play. I appreciate that tastes differ on that.

Beyond that: if you go over the top on minionmancing, your fellow players may eventually lose patience with you. As a DM, I might, or, I might ask you to give me a broad case of "mission orders" and not allow you to try and micro the minions.

My time is finite. This isn't a video game. So far, 5e hasn't got a good structural backbone for large combats.

If I were to fix one thing about 5e wizards, I'd take the Necromancer school and shred it.

[PancakeMaster80]

It is my opinion that spreading MC out over four classes provides an illusion of power that won't be manifested in play. I appreciate that tastes differ on that.

Beyond that: if you go over the top on minionmancing, your fellow players may eventually lose patience with you. As a DM, I might, or, I might ask you to give me a broad case of "mission orders" and not allow you to try and micro the minions.

My time is finite. This isn't a video game. So far, 5e hasn't got a good structural backbone for large combats.

If I were to fix one thing about 5e wizards, I'd take the Necromancer school and shred it.

I definitely agree that any mass summoning build is most likely to fall apart due to how the game can't support it without being super frustrating to other players and GM alike. I personally will probably never play this build because I don't want to drain the game's fun for other folks, but it's fun to think about and let me take two levels of ranger =P.

[PancakeMaster80]

If I were to fix one thing about 5e wizards, I'd take the Necromancer school and shred it.

I think some sort of limitation around Animate Dead to, say, no more spooky bones than your character level or something could help mitigate the issues.

[KorvinStarmast]

but it's fun to think about True, some builds are as much a mental exercise as anything else, and that's its own kind of fun. :smallsmile:

[PancakeMaster80]

True, some builds are as much a mental exercise as anything else, and that's its own kind of fun. :smallsmile:

The more time I spend doing build nonsense like this the more I realize that character creation is my favorite part of DnD, that and having my ideas be eviscerated by strangers on the internet haha.

[kobo1d]

The more time I spend doing build nonsense like this the more I realize that character creation is my favorite part of DnD, that and having my ideas be eviscerated by strangers on the internet haha.

Well I wasn't going to post but now I feel emboldened by your embrace of criticism. Kudos for that!

I appreciate that these builds appear functional and are certainly different from what you normally see, but using the title Power Gaming rubbed me the wrong way, because I am not totally convinced by your argument they are all actually better than much simpler versions of similar builds.

Barbearian...whenever I see Extra Attack twice, it sets off my too much multiclassing alarms. If you count the bear for Moon Druid 2, you have Extra Attack three times. Are you playing solo games? Why in the world does this need Life Cleric 1? Echo Knight Fighter/Totem Barbarian: Great. Moon Druid/Totem Barbarian: Great. Life Cleric/Moon Druid: Great. But man, I really don't think putting all these ingredients together in the same dish works better than just picking a few things to be good at and sticking with them. It kind of feels like you were building up the character level by level, choosing only what looks to be the best thing you can get that very next level, but implicitly ignoring the opportunity cost of the features deeper into these classes you just don't ever reach, or wont until far after they are most valuable.

Hexstaff Hexadin is undeniably great, the staff is a neat touch. A+ build. I love when build guides take magic items into consideration.

Wardlock...Not bad, but I'd much prefer a straight Abjurer with Svirfneblin Magic over this. I think you're overvaluing Eldritch Blast and AC, and much undervaluing getting all your Wizard goodies 2 levels earlier for your whole career and having higher DC on your Wizard saves. If we get the Eldritch Adept feat from UA in Tasha's you can skip the Gnome for VHuman and get infinite ward from level 2.

Master Summoner...As you mentioned elsewhere in this thread, Animate Dead optimization is more of a white room exercise than a character. So you want to add Faerie Fire, some Healing, and defense to your Necromancer...why not skip the extremely MAD stats and just take some Artificer? And I feel that if you are targeting a realistic horde size for an average table, it makes then entire "short rest slots Animate Dead Warlock" more theoretically useful than practically, like say, a bunch more Necromancer levels. With more Necro you couldn't do the the 100 skeleton trick as well, but because without the Archfey, Life Cleric, Ranger (?) distractions, you're not only a capable Animate Dead caster, but also a high level Wizard. In Tasha's, Warlock will likely be getting Animate Dead on their list, in which case a Warlock Animat(or of the) Dead will be probably more reasonable...but probably not involving a long dip into Wizard, Cleric, and Ranger.

Sorry for the negative vibes, I don't think any of these are bad, just perhaps you are associating complexity with power. Obviously a lot of work when into the article, and I totally get that posting a straight class build on your blog is not the most green of fields to be theorycrafting destined to draw in eyeballs. I love to see effortposting like this, so keep at it.

[kazaryu]

"Join my evil Legion of mercenaries". Not thralls, employees. You can't order them to do suicidal things, but you also don't have any reason to do so.

You can also perma-Geas them with Geas IX to make sure they can't attack you. (It doesn't even really matter what Geas you pick but it might as well be "obey your superior officers in the Legion, subject to Legion regulations.")



See, even suggeating they join some legion wouldnt work, not with mass suggestion. Once the spell ends the wight would just be like...nah, im done. And leave

Now geas is a decent idea, its far more likely to work there, although its also 12x more limiting as far as spell slots go.

[MaxWilson]

I would not consider that build likely to succeed as it relies on some liberal interpretations of Mass Suggestion. If you do have a GM that allows this, then awesome, sounds like a fun time, but I try to keep my builds within what would be allowed at most tables.

I feel like "enlist in the army" is not more unreasonable-sounding than "give away your horse to a beggar." Frankly it wouldn't shock me if you could create just as big of an army using purely mundane persuasion, like "all the babies you can eat." Mass Suggestion is just another layer on top of normal persuasion, and you're still going to have to keep your troops happy.

Besides, a truly evil DM isn't going to say "no," he's just going to try to make you miserable dealing with an army of conscienceless psychopathic undead killers (which you created) who signed for a Legion of Doom because they wanted to kill people and destroy things. (Like the worst of Hammer's Slammers, squared.) What could possibly go wrong? The dramatic potential for conflict with, among, or because of your employees is enormous.


See, even suggeating they join some legion wouldnt work, not with mass suggestion. Once the spell ends the wight would just be like...nah, im done. And leave

Now geas is a decent idea, its far more likely to work there, although its also 12x more limiting as far as spell slots go.

I agree, once the spell ends they will leave, but fortunately at that level the spell lasts for a year and a day, and you can recast it on a schedule.

Not like you're actually going to do this though, because as Korvin says, 5E gameplay doesn't scale. The game ceases to be fun long before you get anywhere near 300 minions onscreen. In actual play, Necromancer PCs seem to self-limit to no more than a couple of dozen skeletons, sometimes less than half a dozen, even BEFORE stuff like Planar Binding comes online. I'm just sayin', warlock levels are not the way to go here even if you did want to have 300 minions.

I can totally see keeping around a squad of a dozen Geased + Mass Suggestioned (employed and regulated) super-wights though, especially because unlike skeletons they are smart enough that you can have them go do things off-screen. I'd give them individual names.

[PancakeMaster80]

Well I wasn't going to post but now I feel emboldened by your embrace of criticism. Kudos for that!

Glad I could create an space for more discussions on powerful/fun dnd builds =).


I appreciate that these builds appear functional and are certainly different from what you normally see, but using the title Power Gaming rubbed me the wrong way, because I am not totally convinced by your argument they are all actually better than much simpler versions of similar builds.

My intention for these builds are to be effective whatever they're trying to do, usually murder, while trying my best to go off the beaten path a bit. You could be totally right, there might be simpler versions that have provide equal or better returns, but as you mentioned elsewhere writing the roughly 1-millionth build of "20 evocation wizard" or "sorc/paladin" seemed a bit redundant, plus I like to lean a little whacky whenever I can =P.


Barbearian...whenever I see Extra Attack twice, it sets off my too much multiclassing alarms. If you count the bear for Moon Druid 2, you have Extra Attack three times. Are you playing solo games? Why in the world does this need Life Cleric 1? Echo Knight Fighter/Totem Barbarian: Great. Moon Druid/Totem Barbarian: Great. Life Cleric/Moon Druid: Great. But man, I really don't think putting all these ingredients together in the same dish works better than just picking a few things to be good at and sticking with them. It kind of feels like you were building up the character level by level, choosing only what looks to be the best thing you can get that very next level, but implicitly ignoring the opportunity cost of the features deeper into these classes you just don't ever reach, or wont until far after they are most valuable.

I don't think it ever made it into the final article, but it's the builds' hard focus on early and mid levels that lead to things like having 2 Extra Attack features. If I were starting this character at a higher level I would simply take 3 or 4 levels of barb instead of 5. As for why I chose things like Life cleric, it's because I think the gains are far more than any opportunity cost. Barbarian's best features are levels 1-5, so not continuing with that class doesn't lose much. Taking 2 levels of druid grants a very powerful early game in the from of the brown bear, converting to a ton more HP for tanking at later levels. Spending 1 level of cleric to always be able to heal ourselves and the party to full between each fight, I can't think of any feature the build loses out on that matches that. The fighter levels are definitely a secondary part of the build, but overall I'm not sure what midgame power overshadows this build.


Hexstaff Hexadin is undeniably great, the staff is a neat touch. A+ build. I love when build guides take magic items into consideration.

I do love the Hexstaff, playing it right now and it's just as good as I'd hoped.


Wardlock...Not bad, but I'd much prefer a straight Abjurer with Svirfneblin Magic over this. I think you're overvaluing Eldritch Blast and AC, and much undervaluing getting all your Wizard goodies 2 levels earlier for your whole career and having higher DC on your Wizard saves. If we get the Eldritch Adept feat from UA in Tasha's you can skip the Gnome for VHuman and get infinite ward from level 2.

When you go straight wizard do you still envision the build as front line fighter trying to trigger Armor? I'd be worried about a pure wizard trying to do that and either just dying or not having a reliable turn-to-turn damage ability like the Warlock's EB.


Master Summoner...As you mentioned elsewhere in this thread, Animate Dead optimization is more of a white room exercise than a character. So you want to add Faerie Fire, some Healing, and defense to your Necromancer...why not skip the extremely MAD stats and just take some Artificer? And I feel that if you are targeting a realistic horde size for an average table, it makes then entire "short rest slots Animate Dead Warlock" more theoretically useful than practically, like say, a bunch more Necromancer levels. With more Necro you couldn't do the the 100 skeleton trick as well, but because without the Archfey, Life Cleric, Ranger (?) distractions, you're not only a capable Animate Dead caster, but also a high level Wizard. In Tasha's, Warlock will likely be getting Animate Dead on their list, in which case a Warlock Animat(or of the) Dead will be probably more reasonable...but probably not involving a long dip into Wizard, Cleric, and Ranger.

Does artificer provide all those things? I know they get Faerie Fire, but none of their healing comes even close to what Disciple of Life/Goodberry does. They also are stuck with medium instead of heavy armor. As for trading warlock for more wizard levels, I think that's totally reasonable if you want to focus less on having the biggest bone army, but I love my boney bois =P.

As for using Animate Dead from the warlock spell list instead of going for 6 Necro wizard, the Undead Thralls feature adds a somewhat absurd amount of damage to a large group of skele archers. I had originally envisioned the build using Spore druid that gets both Conjure Animals and Animate dead, but after doing the math the 6 Necro levels blew it out of the water.


Sorry for the negative vibes, I don't think any of these are bad, just perhaps you are associating complexity with power. Obviously a lot of work when into the article, and I totally get that posting a straight class build on your blog is not the most green of fields to be theorycrafting destined to draw in eyeballs. I love to see effortposting like this, so keep at it.

No apologies necessary, your comments sound like they're good faith efforts so I'm happy to hear them. I do like making complex builds, as it makes it less likely people have seen them before, but I also try to avoid having complexity for complexity's sake (at one point the summoner had 3 levels of ranger so they could be a gnome ridding around on their animal companion). I'm glad you enjoyed reading it and took the time to respond =).

[kazaryu]

I feel like "enlist in the army" is not more unreasonable-sounding than "give away your horse to a beggar." Frankly it wouldn't shock me if you could create just as big of an army using purely mundane persuasion, like "all the babies you can eat." Mass Suggestion is just another layer on top of normal persuasion, and you're still going to have to keep your troops happy.

Besides, a truly evil DM isn't going to say "no," he's just going to try to make you miserable dealing with an army of conscienceless psychopathic undead killers (which you created) who signed for a Legion of Doom because they wanted to kill people and destroy things. (Like the worst of Hammer's Slammers, squared.) What could possibly go wrong? The dramatic potential for conflict with, among, or because of your employees is enormous.



I agree, once the spell ends they will leave, but fortunately at that level the spell lasts for a year and a day, and you can recast it on a schedule.

Not like you're actually going to do this though, because as Korvin says, 5E gameplay doesn't scale. The game ceases to be fun long before you get anywhere near 300 minions onscreen. In actual play, Necromancer PCs seem to self-limit to no more than a couple of dozen skeletons, sometimes less than half a dozen, even BEFORE stuff like Planar Binding comes online. I'm just sayin', warlock levels are not the way to go here even if you did want to have 300 minions.

I can totally see keeping around a squad of a dozen Geased + Mass Suggestioned (employed and regulated) super-wights though, especially because unlike skeletons they are smart enough that you can have them go do things off-screen. I'd give them individual names.

nono, you misunderstand. mass suggestion ends, once its suggestion has occurred. the duration is only there to allow for the suggestion to go off down the road from when the spell was cast.


The suggested course of action can continue for the entire duration. If the suggested activity can be completed in a shorter time, the spell ends when the subject finishes what it was asked to do.

the first clause *allows* for the course of action to take place over the duration. but the suggestion 'join the legion' only occurs once...when they join. at whick point the spell ends. 'serve the legion'. could work, but would require a suitably permissive DM. based on my understanding of what a 'course of action' is, i wouldn't imagine that 'serve X' counts as a course of action.

Geas, on the other hand, doesn't have that restriction. which is good for you. you'd still need a somewhat permissive DM, because geas has provisions in the spell for the person rebelling against the geas. but its unclear if they're intended to willingly be able to rebel, or how that all works. And a wight can definitely handle taking the 5d10 psychic damage every day if the DM rules that it can knowingly rebel.

I wouldn't personally run it that way probably. i'd probably run it more as something that occurs over time. And with geas' wording i think you do have a reasonable argument. That being said, if you're gonna rely on geas for your minionmancy then i'd postulate that enchanter would be better for you than necromancer. i mean obviously the necromancer gets better skeletons, but the spell slot efficiency of the enchanter would be huge. as written (with 19 necromancer levels) you'll only rarely have a free 9th level slot. Because you'll be casing geas every day for *at least* 300 of the days. but occasionally a wight will pass the save, so you'll need to wait until the next opportunity. (in some case you could just recast geas as an 8th level spell as a stop gap, but you're still going to need to eventually recast the 9th level). and on days that you don't need to do that, you're probably crafting scrolls as a backup for the days that the wights pass. and if your main force is meant to be the wights anyway, i wouldn't worry too much about the necromancer buffs to zombie/skeles.

[MaxWilson]

nono, you misunderstand. mass suggestion ends, once its suggestion has occurred. the duration is only there to allow for the suggestion to go off down the road from when the spell was cast.

the first clause *allows* for the course of action to take place over the duration. but the suggestion 'join the legion' only occurs once...when they join. at whick point the spell ends. 'serve the legion'. could work, but would require a suitably permissive DM. based on my understanding of what a 'course of action' is, i wouldn't imagine that 'serve X' counts as a course of action.

Since you're not the DM, I'm not interested in fighting with you about which verb to use in this case. Clearly it's possible. Clearly the most effective verb is discoverable through experimentation and/or discussion with the DM. Not interested in nailing down specifics for your table.


I wouldn't personally run it that way probably. i'd probably run it more as something that occurs over time. And with geas' wording i think you do have a reasonable argument. That being said, if you're gonna rely on geas for your minionmancy then i'd postulate that enchanter would be better for you than necromancer. i mean obviously the necromancer gets better skeletons, but the spell slot efficiency of the enchanter would be huge. as written (with 19 necromancer levels) you'll only rarely have a free 9th level slot. Because you'll be casing geas every day for *at least* 300 of the days. but occasionally a wight will pass the save, so you'll need to wait until the next opportunity. (in some case you could just recast geas as an 8th level spell as a stop gap, but you're still going to need to eventually recast the 9th level). and on days that you don't need to do that, you're probably crafting scrolls as a backup for the days that the wights pass. and if your main force is meant to be the wights anyway, i wouldn't worry too much about the necromancer buffs to zombie/skeles.

Geas IX isn't "a year and a day," it's permanent. If you spend a year Geasing 300 wights, you don't need to re-invest next year to keep them under your thumb.

Enchanter would be a bad idea in this case IMO. You'll be missing out on +19 HP to every wight AND almost doubling their damage output (d8+8 (12.5) vs. d8+2(6.5)). Enchanter would let you Geas the wights twice as fast but the end result is worse; and it doesn't benefit Mass Suggestion at all.

[kazaryu]

Since you're not the DM, I'm not interested in fighting with you about which verb to use in this case. Clearly it's possible. Clearly the most effective verb is discoverable through experimentation and/or discussion with the DM. Not interested in nailing down specifics for your table. you misunderstand, it has nothing to do with 'my table' i used myself as an aexample because im me. It doesnt change the substance of my argument. Mass suggestion wouldnt work at most tables becuase *there is no correct verb* its not discoverable.




Geas IX isn't "a year and a day," it's permanent. If you spend a year Geasing 300 wights, you don't need to re-invest next year to keep them under your thumb. oooo, thats a good point, overlooked that. In which case theres really no point in discussing mass suggestion at all


Enchanter would be a bad idea in this case IMO. You'll be missing out on +19 HP to every wight AND almost doubling their damage output (d8+8 (12.5) vs. d8+2(6.5)). Enchanter would let you Geas the wights twice as fast but the end result is worse; and it doesn't benefit Mass Suggestion at all.
Yeh, the enchanter idea was more due to not realizing geas was permanent. I agree that with that correction in place enchanter would be pointless.

[BerzerkerUnit]

See, even suggeating they join some legion wouldnt work, not with mass suggestion. Once the spell ends the wight would just be like...nah, im done. And leave

Now geas is a decent idea, its far more likely to work there, although its also 12x more limiting as far as spell slots go.

Hating the phrase as I type it: weeel akshooully you might not need anything to maintain control of a wight you create? Their Monster Manual entry seems to imply their creation being a bargain with a dark power and that they are servile to Insure they aren’t sent back to whatever doom awaits them. In this case that dark power would seem to be you?

In a home game I might even go so far as to make it so attempts to turn goodish people into wights usually fails since they aren’t interested in escaping their great reward.

[kazaryu]

Hating the phrase as I type it: weeel akshooully you might not need anything to maintain control of a wight you create? Their Monster Manual entry seems to imply their creation being a bargain with a dark power and that they are servile to Insure they aren’t sent back to whatever doom awaits them. In this case that dark power would seem to be you?

In a home game I might even go so far as to make it so attempts to turn goodish people into wights usually fails since they aren’t interested in escaping their great reward.

i mean, thats all fluff, and if thats how you wanna run it, sure. but ultimately, mechanically, the way you're creating them is through 'create undead' which requires that you re-assert control over them. implying that you lose control. the MM entry more likely refers to wights that weren't created in this manner.

[BerzerkerUnit]

i mean, thats all fluff, and if thats how you wanna run it, sure. but ultimately, mechanically, the way you're creating them is through 'create undead' which requires that you re-assert control over them. implying that you lose control. the MM entry more likely refers to wights that weren't created in this manner.

Ehhh, there’s nothing explicitly indicating that whatever power otherwise creates them doesn’t use Create Undead. No reason to reinvent the hammer if they exist and you want to drive a nail.

Losing “Absoluto Domination” doesn’t necessarily mean a wight goes on a rampage. They’re intelligent beings that know you dwarf them in power. If you’ve been splitting the treasure or they were a former ally, there’s no obvious reason they’d immediately go rogue.

I’m also getting the sense that you can reassert control by casting the spell even if it’s lapsed, so they’d know staying on your good side avoids utter servitude... but it’s true that DM’s are not beholden to lore, fluff, or even rules (though completely injudicious defiance of any of the three can quickly spur a game).

[MaxWilson]

I’m also getting the sense that you can reassert control by casting the spell even if it’s lapsed, so they’d know staying on your good side avoids utter servitude... but it’s true that DM’s are not beholden to lore, fluff, or even rules (though completely injudicious defiance of any of the three can quickly spur a game).

I don't get that sense from the spell text:

The creature is under your control for 24 hours, after which it stops obeying any Command you have given it. To maintain control of the creature for another 24 hours, you must cast this spell on the creature before the current 24-hour period ends. This use of the spell reasserts your control over up to three creatures you have animated with this spell, rather than animating new ones.

Once it's expired, control can no longer be renewed via Create Undead. (But why would you want to anyway? Create Undead doesn't scale.)

[BerzerkerUnit]

I don't get that sense from the spell text:

The creature is under your control for 24 hours, after which it stops obeying any Command you have given it. To maintain control of the creature for another 24 hours, you must cast this spell on the creature before the current 24-hour period ends. This use of the spell reasserts your control over up to three creatures you have animated with this spell, rather than animating new ones.

Once it's expired, control can no longer be renewed via Create Undead. (But why would you want to anyway? Create Undead doesn't scale.)

Not sure I gather your meaning about scaling. Though I’ll note that at 14th level, making a wight and permadominating it with your necromancer 14 Feature is an okay sidestep for an additional 12 zombies. But I think we’re way off topic now.

The OPs builds are okay. Fiddlyness is part of the fun. I’ve tripped over a few obvious combos and just walked PCs out of games bc they got gross.

Makios Usherdoom, Half Elf Grave Cleric 2/Divine Soul Sorcerer 3 was dropping 10d10 necrotic touches on a bad guy with his “cursed hand” multiple times a day at level 5. 2 sessions in I had him retire bc it was funny exactly twice and I knew it would be disheartening for the DM if it continued.

[PancakeMaster80]

The OPs builds are okay. Fiddlyness is part of the fun. I’ve tripped over a few obvious combos and just walked PCs out of games bc they got gross.

Fiddly builds that are okay was exactly what I was trying for =P

[Skylivedk]

Fiddly builds that are okay was exactly what I was trying for =P

You might like the Cheese Grater in this thread then: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?611871-5e-Throwdowns-1-The-Gish&highlight=the%20cheese%20grater&p=24511150#post24511150

It's a lvl 20 build that can potentially kill Tiamat (hp wise) in 1 round of combat + 1 round of setup:
Level 20 Level Split: Hexblade 3 / Moon Druid 10 / Fighter 2 / Scout 3 / Paladin 2

[Valmark]

You might like the Cheese Grater in this thread then: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?611871-5e-Throwdowns-1-The-Gish&highlight=the%20cheese%20grater&p=24511150#post24511150

It's a lvl 20 build that can potentially kill Tiamat (hp wise) in 1 round of combat + 1 round of setup:
Level 20 Level Split: Hexblade 3 / Moon Druid 10 / Fighter 2 / Scout 3 / Paladin 2

It can't harm Tiamat at all if I'm reading it right (and even if it could you'd need an ally) but that doesn't make it any less lethal against nearly anything that doesn't have immunity to the spell.

EDIT: Can't harm her through the intended tactic I mean.

[PancakeMaster80]

You might like the Cheese Grater in this thread then: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?611871-5e-Throwdowns-1-The-Gish&highlight=the%20cheese%20grater&p=24511150#post24511150

It's a lvl 20 build that can potentially kill Tiamat (hp wise) in 1 round of combat + 1 round of setup:
Level 20 Level Split: Hexblade 3 / Moon Druid 10 / Fighter 2 / Scout 3 / Paladin 2

This looks right up my alley! Now I want to brew up my own version.

[kazaryu]

You might like the Cheese Grater in this thread then: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?611871-5e-Throwdowns-1-The-Gish&highlight=the%20cheese%20grater&p=24511150#post24511150

It's a lvl 20 build that can potentially kill Tiamat (hp wise) in 1 round of combat + 1 round of setup:
Level 20 Level Split: Hexblade 3 / Moon Druid 10 / Fighter 2 / Scout 3 / Paladin 2

i do enjoy the cheesiness of the build but i had a couple of notes about it.

1. just because you're travelling x feet per round doesn't mean your target is. they have a smaller circumference circle, but are travelling with the same rotational speed. meaning they travels slower than you. and that effect only gets amplified on larger targets (like tiamat) and when you're a larger creature. some numbers.
2 medium creatures:
your radius: 22.5'
their radius 17.5' (not a huge difference. only a 30' difference in circumference. or moving at about 78& your speed. )
but if you're both large creatures then you go to 15/25 foot radius' which is a 60' difference in circumferance. or in other words they're moving at only 60% your speed.
it just scales linearly from there. idk how much horizontal space tiamat takes up, but if she's 20x20 then she'd only have a 10' radius. so something like 45% speed compared to a medium creature trying to drag her. MUCH MUCH slower if you were a creature that as actually large enough to effectively grapple her.


2. unfortunately most if not all auto grapple forms that are available to you have pitiful to-hit bonuses. so would fall off at higher levels. obviously this can be greatly mitigated by just...using standard grappling rules with expertise since most monsters dont have athletics/acrobatics proficiency. but its still something to keep in mind.

that being said, as you point out, the build isn't actually a OTP, so even in situations where the cheesegrater would have limited utility you can still do stuff.

[Skylivedk]

It can't harm Tiamat at all if I'm reading it right (and even if it could you'd need an ally) but that doesn't make it any less lethal against nearly anything that doesn't have immunity to the spell.

EDIT: Can't harm her through the intended tactic I mean.
You mean because of the spell protection? That's why I wrote hp wise :) Also because there's ways to get around the limited spell protection (I write this without spoiling too much I hope). Alternatively, use the alternative build option and upcast Spiked Growth from a level 7 slot. Problem solved ;)


i do enjoy the cheesiness of the build but i had a couple of notes about it.

1. just because you're travelling x feet per round doesn't mean your target is. they have a smaller circumference circle, but are travelling with the same rotational speed. meaning they travels slower than you. and that effect only gets amplified on larger targets (like tiamat) and when you're a larger creature. some numbers.
2 medium creatures:
your radius: 22.5'
their radius 17.5' (not a huge difference. only a 30' difference in circumference. or moving at about 78& your speed. )
but if you're both large creatures then you go to 15/25 foot radius' which is a 60' difference in circumferance. or in other words they're moving at only 60% your speed.
it just scales linearly from there. idk how much horizontal space tiamat takes up, but if she's 20x20 then she'd only have a 10' radius. so something like 45% speed compared to a medium creature trying to drag her. MUCH MUCH slower if you were a creature that as actually large enough to effectively grapple her.


2. unfortunately most if not all auto grapple forms that are available to you have pitiful to-hit bonuses. so would fall off at higher levels. obviously this can be greatly mitigated by just...using standard grappling rules with expertise since most monsters dont have athletics/acrobatics proficiency. but its still something to keep in mind.

that being said, as you point out, the build isn't actually a OTP, so even in situations where the cheesegrater would have limited utility you can still do stuff.

What do you need circumference for? Just move them back and forth 5 feet. You are grating cheese not trying to use the entire Spiked Growth area.

The to hit is definitely an issue. Luckily Giant Scorpion has blind sense so it's easy to get advantage. Originally I build around using Twinned Enlarge/Reduce on yourself and the opponent (and having someone else drop spiked growth) but when I saw the loophole for Hexblade's Curse and Spiked Growth that went out the window. It can also be done by a friendly Sorcerer for some really ridiculous team cheese grater moves.

Anyway, I'm happy you both enjoyed it. It was one of the more fun builds to design.

[kazaryu]

What do you need circumference for? Just move them back and forth 5 feet. You are grating cheese not trying to use the entire Spiked Growth area. ah, a good point. Irl itd stil require curcumference since spike growth is still a circle, but with thebway dnd works, you're right.


The to hit is definitely an issue. Luckily Giant Scorpion has blind sense so it's easy to get advantage. Originally I build around using Twinned Enlarge/Reduce on yourself and the opponent (and having someone else drop spiked growth) but when I saw the loophole for Hexblade's Curse and Spiked Growth that went out the window. It can also be done by a friendly Sorcerer for some really ridiculous team cheese grater moves. eh, even with adv a +4tohit is gonna suffer. In fact id say the low accuracy helps to make the build closer to not be ridonkulus at higher levels. Doesnt actually make it balanced, but makes it better. Also provides a solid weak point that a clever foe can exploit

[PancakeMaster80]

Anyway, I'm happy you both enjoyed it. It was one of the more fun builds to design.

I had a blast reading it. Spent a couple hours last night coming up with my own take on the strategy. Super basic level breakdown, I wanted to see if ditching druid for other classes might yield more consistent results

Fighter - 1
Cleric (Nature) - 3
Rouge - 2
Warlock (Hexblade/Pact of the Chain) - 3
Cleric - 1 - Warcaster
Warlock - 1 - +2 Str
Rogue (Scout) - 2 - +2 Str
Fighter (Eldritch Knight) - 7 - +2Str, +2Con, +2Con

[MaxWilson]

ah, a good point. Irl itd stil require curcumference since spike growth is still a circle, but with thebway dnd works, you're right.

That sounds like you'd be vibrating yourself without ever dragging the victim anywhere.

"Moving a Grappled Creature: When you move, you can drag or carry the Grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you."

You're clearly not carrying them or they wouldn't be in the spikes. You don't seem to be dragging them either, just sort of orbiting around them in a partial orbit.

[kazaryu]

That sounds like you'd be vibrating yourself without ever dragging the victim anywhere.

"Moving a Grappled Creature: When you move, you can drag or carry the Grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you."

You're clearly not carrying them or they wouldn't be in the spikes. You don't seem to be dragging them either, just sort of orbiting around them in a partial orbit.

I mean, thats an inherent problem with this basic combo overall. How the dm runs the dragging part of grappling. Obviously if the dm has whoever youre graplling follow behind you, then the combo doesnt work because youd need to step in the area yourself in order to drag them through it.

I just didnt bother outright saying that becuase it seemed implicit in the combo that the dm allows you to drag someone sideways like that. So there wasnt much point in bringing it up

[MaxWilson]

I mean, thats an inherent problem with this basic combo overall. How the dm runs the dragging part of grappling. Obviously if the dm has whoever youre graplling follow behind you, then the combo doesnt work because youd need to step in the area yourself in order to drag them through it.

I just didnt bother outright saying that becuase it seemed implicit in the combo that the dm allows you to drag someone sideways like that. So there wasnt much point in bringing it up

The combo can still work while dragging if you're flying--isn't that the whole point of Moon Druid 10, so you can turn into an Air Elemental? (Large + flying)

[Skylivedk]

I had a blast reading it. Spent a couple hours last night coming up with my own take on the strategy. Super basic level breakdown, I wanted to see if ditching druid for other classes might yield more consistent results

Fighter - 1
Cleric (Nature) - 3
Rouge - 2
Warlock (Hexblade/Pact of the Chain) - 3
Cleric - 1 - Warcaster
Warlock - 1 - +2 Str
Rogue (Scout) - 2 - +2 Str
Fighter (Eldritch Knight) - 7 - +2Str, +2Con, +2Con
What are you aiming to gain this way? It's a 4/4/4/8 build if I read it correctly. There's plenty of possible variations for Storm Bird/the Cheese Grater. This build seems a lot slower than my suggestion. You also have less nuke, but better grappling. You are challenged by size restrictions, have lower level spell slots (3 instead of 6/7) and know only up to 2nd level spells. YMMV, but you sacrifice a whole lot of utility and nice to haves IMO (ie your AoA is a lot weaker).

I'll repost my build in LudicSavant's Eclectic builds thread, maybe continue there? :)


I mean, thats an inherent problem with this basic combo overall. How the dm runs the dragging part of grappling. Obviously if the dm has whoever youre graplling follow behind you, then the combo doesnt work because youd need to step in the area yourself in order to drag them through it.

I just didnt bother outright saying that becuase it seemed implicit in the combo that the dm allows you to drag someone sideways like that. So there wasnt much point in bringing it up

Sideways dragging has been the norm in the games I've played so far, but yes, obviously a good idea. The main part of the combo is exploiting Spiked Growth and Hexblade's Curse. In principle, you don't need to do the dragging yourself. I personally added it for the theory crafting challenge

[PancakeMaster80]

What are you aiming to gain this way? It's a 4/4/4/8 build if I read it correctly. There's plenty of possible variations for Storm Bird/the Cheese Grater. This build seems a lot slower than my suggestion. You also have less nuke, but better grappling. You are challenged by size restrictions, have lower level spell slots (3 instead of 6/7) and know only up to 2nd level spells. YMMV, but you sacrifice a whole lot of utility and nice to haves IMO (ie your AoA is a lot weaker).

Trying make sure the build always succeeds its grapples and has more AC. Also wanted to see how it looked without using druid.



I'll repost my build in LudicSavant's Eclectic builds thread, maybe continue there? :)

That sounds good, do you have a link?

[MaxWilson]

That sounds good, do you have a link?

Here's the thread: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds

[kazaryu]

The combo can still work while dragging if you're flying--isn't that the whole point of Moon Druid 10, so you can turn into an Air Elemental? (Large + flying)

uhhhh, i mean that is definitely a point in favor of the air elemental. the way i read the original post it seemed that it was just for the higher speed. (at the cost of lower str). compared to an earth elemental.

[Skylivedk]

uhhhh, i mean that is definitely a point in favor of the air elemental. the way i read the original post it seemed that it was just for the higher speed. (at the cost of lower str). compared to an earth elemental.

A bit of both. I did imagine you could do the wiggle-wiggle without being in the zone of death yourself, but having an Aarakocra base also meant you could catch enemies in the Great Grater or on the opposite side of it. The very first draft for this character was to kill a greater basilisk with a minimum fail chance at level 5 (or 6?) presuming the DM would block long range kiting somehow.

[Reynaert]

Small but significant niggle on the wardlock build: You can't cast mage armour on yourself while you're wearing armour.

[JackPhoenix]

Revivify and Clone wouldn't work at all, because Grim Harvest specifically states "Once per turn when you kill one or more creatures with a spell of 1st level or higher, you regain hit points equal to twice the spell's level, or three times its level if the spell belongs to the School of Necromancy. You don't gain this benefit for killing constructs or undead." You can't kill a creature with the Clone spell, nor can you kill a creature with Revivify.

There could be an argument made for Animate dead, however its only once per turn so you'd only gain between 9 and 27 hp depending on the slot used, provided the undead you create kill a creature that round. Also, there is a difference between a creature and an object like Goodberry. That said, I see no reason not to allow Grim Harvest to work with Animate Dead. You're still only gaining that HP once per round, and only if your undead kill something.

Turn =/= round. Every skeleton gets its own turn each round. Even one spell level 3 spell slot allows you to keep control of 4 skeletons, after the original creation. Give each skeleton a bag of rats and appropriate orders, that's 36 HP healed each round, until you run out of rats. Or chickens.... a potion of healing is 50 gp for 2d4+2 hp. A chicken is 2 cp for 9 hp, if you allow skeletons to work with Grim Harvest.


Small but significant niggle on the wardlock build: You can't cast mage armour on yourself while you're wearing armour.

You can take off the armor, recharge the ward, then put on the armor again.

[MaxWilson]

Turn =/= round. Every skeleton gets its own turn each round. Even one spell level 3 spell slot allows you to keep control of 4 skeletons, after the original creation. Give each skeleton a bag of rats and appropriate orders, that's 36 HP healed each round, until you run out of rats. Or chickens.... a potion of healing is 50 gp for 2d4+2 hp. A chicken is 2 cp for 9 hp, if you allow skeletons to work with Grim Harvest.


Even better, the skeletons are permanent once created (just like Goodberries), although like Goodberries they have special properties for the first 24 hours after their creation. So if a skeleton killing something counts as you killing with a spell and therefore triggers Grim Harvest, you could theoretically just animate a few dozen skeletons with Animate Dead IX-ish and release them into a forest or a lake or something. From then on, whenever one of those skeletons kills a fish or a chipmonk (or a peasant), you regain 27 HP, no matter where you are in the world.

This interpretation is untenable and it's why I don't count effects created by (creatures or objects created originally by spells) as something done by those spells, for purposes of rule interactions. No Disciple of Life benefits after the spell's duration has ended, no Grim Harvest either.