Designing a gauntlet, need a penalty for downtime

[gogogome]

The rules are simple. I throw 4 encounters and if the PCs beat all of them they get a night's rest.

If they want to quit before the 4 encounters because they ran out of spells, or if they want downtime, I need a penalty.

Help me come up with some penalties.

I don't want any penalty that affects the PCs in combat. The encounters are hard enough at it is.
I don't want any penalty that affects their wealth because the encounters are hard enough as it is and the whole thing will become essentially paying gp for downtime.

So i want to go for some kind of roleplay penalty. Something like each extra day results in one family member being killed except something seriously less evil/cruel/dark/etc. And I want the penalty to happen to the PCs and not someone related to them.

I'm thinking along the lines of excruciating manual labor for like a week and that results in 1 extra day for item crafting or spell preparation or something like that. Something that would make players extremely reluctant to try and get extra days.

[Batcathat]

Maybe some sort of (possibly temporary) disfigurement? Nothing that cripples them, just something embarrassing and maybe humourous.


I'm thinking along the lines of excruciating manual labor for like a week and that results in 1 extra day for item crafting or spell preparation or something like that. Something that would make players extremely reluctant to try and get extra days.

I'm not sure how well this would work, it feels like either they don't have to play out the labor in detail and thus it doesn't feel like much of a punishment or they do have to play it out in detail and it ends up a very boring (part of a ) session. Not to say there isn't some sort of middle ground that might work, I'm just not sure what it would be.

[gogogome]

I'm not sure how well this would work, it feels like either they don't have to play out the labor in detail and thus it doesn't feel like much of a punishment or they do have to play it out in detail and it ends up a very boring (part of a ) session. Not to say there isn't some sort of middle ground that might work, I'm just not sure what it would be.

That's exactly why I made this thread. They won't need to play it out so it won't be a punishment. So I need ideas that will.

Seeing how most of the PC's lives are gonna be combat after combat with no social aspects, and any disfigurement they suffer can be reversed with their own strength at higher levels, I don't think its much of a punishment.

[Batcathat]

Seeing how most of the PC's lives are gonna be combat after combat with no social aspects, and any disfigurement they suffer can be reversed with their own strength at higher levels, I don't think its much of a punishment.

Good point. Though if their lives are gonna be all combat but you don't want the penalty to affect them in combat, I'm not sure there are many options left.

[denthor]

Horrible dreams haunt your attempt at sleep no recovery of anything. Straight forward.

[JyP]

The rules are simple. I throw 4 encounters and if the PCs beat all of them they get a night's rest.

If they want to quit before the 4 encounters because they ran out of spells, or if they want downtime, I need a penalty.

Well, maybe your gauntlet has an expected monetary value or magic item trove, which would diminish over time ? So an appeal to players' greed :smallwink:

About roleplay penalties : I don't know the background and circumstances around your gauntlet, so let me assume this is some kind of big battle, with many skirmishes over the time. PCs are not alone but part of a big army, and refusing to take part in a skirmish would be seen as dishonorable, cowardice or even treachery by other members of the army. No one wants to be court-martialed or seen as a deserter.

[gogogome]

Well, maybe your gauntlet has an expected monetary value or magic item trove, which would diminish over time ? So an appeal to players' greed :smallwink:

About roleplay penalties : I don't know the background and circumstances around your gauntlet, so let me assume this is some kind of big battle, with many skirmishes over the time. PCs are not alone but part of a big army, and refusing to take part in a skirmish would be seen as dishonorable, cowardice or even treachery by other members of the army. No one wants to be court-martialed or seen as a deserter.

They are gladiator slaves of powerful extraplanar creatures pitting them against other captured monsters for sport. What they don't realize is that the PCs grow at an insanely quick pace and if all goes well they'll hit level 20 within a month and kill the entire host of extraplanar creatures.

On the meta side, my players showed interest in a mindless monster grinding campaign without any roleplay slowing down monster slaying, so i designed the gauntlet.

[JyP]

well, if it's an arena, let's have another group of gladiators which also progress at a freakish pace - some puny gladiators or kobolds which were the first encounter, with only a few survivors. Now they are determined to kill the PCs, and another encounter shows they are now way stronger... no explanation except kobolds being fodder in small matches between the big events in the arena.

[ciopo]

on early surrender : no XP for the encounters they defeated that day, instead of "moving on" to next day challenges, they have to repeat today challenges until they complete them.

So no surrendering to get around the harder 4th challenge but still getting stronger from defeating the earlier challenges of the day.

the game becomes something on the strategic level on top of the tactical level, since they have to fiddle around with resource management for beating the four challenges and won't get any benefit from alpha striking the first 2-3 and forgoing the later ones.

I'd suggest telling them beforehand each day what the 4 challenges are and possibly when they are stronger getting to pick the order they face them ( champions privilege when getting challenged, they are not the challengers anymore )

[RedWarlock]

Maybe on the idea of other competing groups, make it a grand tournament or competitive challenge. Other groups aren't stopping or slowing down, and they're progressing faster in levels than the PCs. (it won't actually affect the encounters, but it can give them an RP-based reason to THINK they are falling behind.) The NPC group(s) might not even directly interact with them, except during downtime. But there's some grand prize at the end, or successive minor victories along the way (like loot) and the first group to get there wins.

[Batcathat]

Maybe on the idea of other competing groups, make it a grand tournament or competitive challenge. Other groups aren't stopping or slowing down, and they're progressing faster in levels than the PCs. (it won't actually affect the encounters, but it can give them an RP-based reason to THINK they are falling behind.) The NPC group(s) might not even directly interact with them, except during downtime. But there's some grand prize at the end, or successive minor victories along the way (like loot) and the first group to get there wins.

Having the other group(s) composed of *******s who love talking about how much better they are might also provide some motivation for the PCs and potentially the players as well. Never underestimate the desire to put jerks in their place. :smallwink:

[Vizzerdrix]

What about a penalty to the players instead of their characters? Every time they rest, remove a chair from the table. Give one chair back when they complete a set of challenges.

[Quentinas]

I would do as it being an extraplanar arena For each encounter they retreat one character (choosed at random) will take the effect of a Nigh hag dream hunting, as they let the Night hag have fun with the coward so they could fight with more motivation (and weakened) during the encounter. As it being only 1 point of constitution probably the player will have the solution.Another way could be that they see the group they should fight winning (because they retired) giving a description ,and later they will fight that group again "Stronger" at least in their eyes , when it will be a challenge for their level.

If i would be a player i would say i would try a revolution if i can talk to other groups, and as a DM my players could have a similar destiny in the City of Brass but they escaped. In that case i would have done something similar, but a group outside was trying to free the prisoner and the more the party defeated the torturer/executioner, before this group would have freed the prisoners (including the player characters)

[Demidos]

Put in competing groups with alternate win conditions --

A group of rogues voluntarily allowed themselves to be caught to rob the Arena figures blind. Every day that goes by, the PCs get less loot.


A group of Yuan-ti loudly boast in the prison cells that their near-diety (Divine Rank 0) leader is coming to free them. If the party delays too much, they must fight the leader at the end to avoid becoming slaves to a new owner.

Or lessen the appeal of time off --

Give them tokens at the end of each match that are thrown by the crowds that can give them various benefits (extra days off, showers, upgraded gear, etc, up to a kind of token which allows you to go free with enough of them.) (Yes this idea is from Kaveman's journal, shh). The offer of this special loot alone, as long as it's moderately useful, should be enough to motivate them.

[Venger]

So i want to go for some kind of roleplay penalty.

On the meta side, my players showed interest in a mindless monster grinding campaign without any roleplay slowing down monster slaying, so i designed the gauntlet.
Does not compute.

Let's take a step back. Why do you want to do this? What is the goal you want to accomplish? What is the end of the sentence "In an ideal playthrough of this gauntlet (blank)?"

PCs, just like npcs, are allowed to rest, surrender, bypass encounters, etc when they run into an enemy that is too strong for them or a fight that they're too low on resources to overcome. It's why a giant impenetrable force field that blocks teleportation doesn't descend on them every time the star trek fight music starts playing.

If the party is not allowed to retreat or rest anymore to replenish hp/spells/etc, then they are presumably trapped in that room any time they run into a monster in your meat grinder, and will be summarily killed. You say the encounters are "hard enough," which to me conveys that you do not want to kill your PCs, so what exactly is it you want?

I played in a game once about wizard school, and at session 0, the gm gave us a syllabus with a list of tasks on it organized like a report card. We would receive grades based on how well we did on certain mission objectives (lose points for being killed, gain points for obtaining items for questgivers, using spells cleverly, etc) Maybe you could come up with something like that for your gauntlet. Another popular tool for people who want to combat the 15 minute adventuring day is to give the party some kind of in-character ticking clock they must beat, such as a bomb that's going to go off in x time, or a boss who grows more powerful the longer they delay fighting him at the end or similar.

[Kelb_Panthera]

They're gladiator slaves to beings that are eternal. Don't let them quit before the fourth encounter of the day; win or die. Their owners don't care, there are more where these pawns came from.

[AnimeTheCat]

The rules are simple. I throw 4 encounters and if the PCs beat all of them they get a night's rest.

If they want to quit before the 4 encounters because they ran out of spells, or if they want downtime, I need a penalty.
I've found that penalties, threats of penalties, punishments, threats of punishments, and collectively positive/negative punishment to be overall far less impactful as a tool to provoke action than a bonus, boone, removal of an established ability/skill block, or some other positive/negative reinforcement tactics.


Help me come up with some penalties.

I don't want any penalty that affects the PCs in combat. The encounters are hard enough at it is.
I don't want any penalty that affects their wealth because the encounters are hard enough as it is and the whole thing will become essentially paying gp for downtime.

So i want to go for some kind of roleplay penalty. Something like each extra day results in one family member being killed except something seriously less evil/cruel/dark/etc. And I want the penalty to happen to the PCs and not someone related to them.

I'm thinking along the lines of excruciating manual labor for like a week and that results in 1 extra day for item crafting or spell preparation or something like that. Something that would make players extremely reluctant to try and get extra days.

Here's what I would do. Start by limiting the PCs in what they can or can't do in the gauntlet. For example, start incredibly strict and say something like this rulset:
- no magic
- unarmed attacks only
- no armor
- no feats
- no skills

then, as your gauntlet progresses, if they make it to the end without stopping to rest, they get those restrictions lifted. It doesn't have to be so ham-fisted, but something like that is way more encouraging than risk of punishment.

[DeTess]

on early surrender : no XP for the encounters they defeated that day, instead of "moving on" to next day challenges, they have to repeat today challenges until they complete them.

So no surrendering to get around the harder 4th challenge but still getting stronger from defeating the earlier challenges of the day.

the game becomes something on the strategic level on top of the tactical level, since they have to fiddle around with resource management for beating the four challenges and won't get any benefit from alpha striking the first 2-3 and forgoing the later ones.

I'd suggest telling them beforehand each day what the 4 challenges are and possibly when they are stronger getting to pick the order they face them ( champions privilege when getting challenged, they are not the challengers anymore )

If I where to run a gauntlet for a group of players that specifically want to just bash monsters for an interesting challenge, this is probably how I'd do it too, maybe with the addition of a special currency for clearing a 4-combat run in a single go that gives them mostly RP benefits (nicer quarters, custom appearance gear, that sort of stuff).

[gogogome]

well, if it's an arena, let's have another group of gladiators which also progress at a freakish pace - some puny gladiators or kobolds which were the first encounter, with only a few survivors. Now they are determined to kill the PCs, and another encounter shows they are now way stronger... no explanation except kobolds being fodder in small matches between the big events in the arena.

Maybe on the idea of other competing groups, make it a grand tournament or competitive challenge. Other groups aren't stopping or slowing down, and they're progressing faster in levels than the PCs. (it won't actually affect the encounters, but it can give them an RP-based reason to THINK they are falling behind.) The NPC group(s) might not even directly interact with them, except during downtime. But there's some grand prize at the end, or successive minor victories along the way (like loot) and the first group to get there wins.

Having the other group(s) composed of *******s who love talking about how much better they are might also provide some motivation for the PCs and potentially the players as well. Never underestimate the desire to put jerks in their place. :smallwink:

Don't think this will really do anything. My players don't care whether another npc adventuring group does well or not.


on early surrender : no XP for the encounters they defeated that day, instead of "moving on" to next day challenges, they have to repeat today challenges until they complete them.

Some of my players' builds can't go through 4 encounters until higher level. Some of my players' need to craft their own essential equipment so they need downtime. It's why I want to give them a penalty instead of saying "you fail" and force them to play something they don't want to play. Being unable to progress at all until they beat the impossible isn't fun.

To be clear, I don't want to force my players to make characters specifically designed to beat the gauntlet. I want my players to play whatever character they love through the gauntlet even if it means resting after every encounter, but I want to strongly discourage this to the point players will only rest before 4 encounters as a last resort. D&D is balanced for multiple encounters and if you remove multiple encounters into a single encounter then the game becomes 4 times easier than it should be.

For example, one of my players is a necromancer. Zombies can go all day without rest if you give them all day healing. But zombies cannot kill fiends or flying enemies so the wizard has to use his spells which doesn't last more than 2 encounters. I don't want to force him to stop playing necromancer for the gauntlet, but at the same time I want to stress him into figuring out a way to last all day.

Another example, one of my players' entire build revolves around a phylactery of change. So he's gonna need some downtime to craft it. I don't want him to take a hike and build another character he'll enjoy less just for the gauntlet, but at the same time I don't want him to craft magic items for several years.


What is the end of the sentence "(blank)?"

In an ideal playthrough of this gauntlet each player would feel like a man for defeating every fiend published in the game including Daemon Princes and Archdevils in a straight up fight that were controlled by an intelligent person (me) and without resting after each encounter."


Here's what I would do. Start by limiting the PCs in what they can or can't do in the gauntlet. For example, start incredibly strict and say something like this rulset:
- no magic
- unarmed attacks only
- no armor
- no feats
- no skills

then, as your gauntlet progresses, if they make it to the end without stopping to rest, they get those restrictions lifted. It doesn't have to be so ham-fisted, but something like that is way more encouraging than risk of punishment.

The encounters are hard enough as it is without these penalties.

[AnimeTheCat]

The encounters are hard enough as it is without these penalties.

It's not about increasing encounter difficulty, it's about bringing to bear a desired outcome. You want them to beat your encounters without stopping. There are four primary means to doing this, two are punishments, two are reinforcements.

In general, people respond to reinforcement far more readily than punishment. You have Positive Reinforcement and Negative Reinforcement. Positive Reinforcement is the addition of positive/good things (bonuses/buffs to take to the next round, etc) and Negative Reinforcement is the removal of negative/bad things. By starting the group in a position of restriction, it is far easier to have more Negative Reinforcement options at your disposal. Positive/Negative Reinforcement are the best way to encourage a desired outcome as they are rewards/benefits, and the only net penalty is sustainment of the status quo which is counter to the party's best interest. They work for the reward, not for the risk of punishment.

Positive Punishment is the addition of negative/bad things (penalties/debuffs that they carry to the next round, etc) and Negative Punishment is the removal of positive/good things. In general, this is not a good way to entice a desired outcome in people. This also seems like it would lead to a whole lot of tension between the DM and the Players simply by the nature that you are specifically punishing their characters. You never want to be in the position where you're, more or less, arbitrarily punishing the characters. You want to consistently be in the position where optimal choices for the game are rewarded, and sub-optimal are not. Things that are Negative Punishments are things like removal of earned experience points (they did clear the encounters, but they are not being rewarded for the work they actually did) is antagonistic to the players and in my experience does not provide a fun or enjoyable play environment. That's like telling a car salesman, "hey, I know you worked these hours, but since you didn't meet your quota, not only are you not getting commission, you're not even going to get your hourly wage. Better luck next time." It's not a good position to put the players in because it's not fun.

If you want to drive players to overcome the obstacles, it's better to reward the drive with extra than it is to deter resting with punishment. But, your game, your decision. I would find being punished for making more or less smart decisions to be lame. If you dont' want them to rest, give them a real reason not to rest. Give them a timeline or an in-game reason to push on and throw caution to the wind. Don't punish your players for being cautious unless there is an in-game reason to do so that they might reasonably discover or is rationally explainable.

[TheStranger]

What about a cumulative “momentum” bonus (untyped, stacks with everything) to attack/damage/saves for each encounter after the first without resting? That should give a tangible, but not game breaking, incentive to push on, without making later encounters impossible if your players decide to rest instead.

As others have noted, you aren’t giving yourself a lot of options here. Your players apparently don’t care about RP rewards/punishments, so any incentive needs to be mechanical. You’re unwilling to impose any mechanical consequences that might make future battles more difficult, though, or otherwise impede your players’ ability to progress through this gauntlet in whatever manner they choose. So with RP incentives and substantial mechanical incentives off the table, there aren’t many options left.

If I were running this, I’d probably take a different approach and say that the “encounter” is a certain number of consecutive fights (1d6 for variety but tell your players the number each day). I’d keep it in line with CR guidelines, so it would be a tougher opponent if there’s only one fight in a day. They can quit early but fail the “encounter” and get no XP and no downtime. Instead, they get a different batch of level-appropriate fights the next day, and so on until they succeed and make progress through the gauntlet. I would consider having an extra “double or nothing” fight as well, so an encounter might be three fights in a row, and if the players choose to fight a fourth battle they get extra XP and/or gear if they win but no XP for the day if they lose. That is, however, a metric buttload of encounter prep unless you use a random generator.