Does anyone craft?

[EggKookoo]

Has anyone ever found item crafting to be worth the in-game time suggested by the rules?

Specific example: My fighter has a nonmagical greataxe. She took an adamantine battleaxe off a monster and asked about having the adamantine melted down and used to coat the blade of her greataxe. I figured, sure, why not? Despite the possible size difference of the heads of both axes, I was okay with there being enough adamantine to make the greataxe head effectively adamantine-coated. And for all I know, the axe heads are more or less the same size. So, great, let's do it.

Then I looked up how long it would take a smith to do this for her. I had trouble finding examples of adamantine, but getting a weapon silvered seems to be more common and I found examples of people discussing it online. The general consensus is that it takes something in the range of 20 in-game days to silver a weapon. My PCs are level 3. They started at 1st level and have been playing in-game for three weeks at most. Twenty in-game days from now, I expect these guys to be pushing 10th level. PCs level fast in 5e.

Is there a point to upgrading a mundane weapon when by the time she gets it she'll probably have a couple +1 magical weapons on hand?

[Unoriginal]

Has anyone ever found item crafting to be worth the in-game time suggested by the rules?

Specific example: My fighter has a nonmagical greataxe. She took an adamantine battleaxe off a monster and asked about having the adamantine melted down and used to coat the blade of her greataxe. I figured, sure, why not? Despite the possible size difference of the heads of both axes, I was okay with there being enough adamantine to make the greataxe head effectively adamantine-coated. And for all I know, the axe heads are more or less the same size. So, great, let's do it.

Then I looked up how long it would take a smith to do this for her. I had trouble finding examples of adamantine, but getting a weapon silvered seems to be more common and I found examples of people discussing it online. The general consensus is that it takes something in the range of 20 in-game days to silver a weapon. My PCs are level 3. They started at 1st level and have been playing in-game for three weeks at most. Twenty in-game days from now, I expect these guys to be pushing 10th level. PCs level fast in 5e.

Well, a few points:

- Downtime is there for a reason. Adventurers aren't always adventuring, in most campaigns.

- PCs level fast up to lvl 3. It slows down considerably in the lvl 5 range.

- Yeah, I do indeed use item crafting in my game, and consider the time spent worthwhile.

- As the Xanathar's says, adamantine-coated weapons are worth 500gps more than their non-coated equivalent. So, it would take 10 workweeks to craft by one person working alone, but it can be divided down to 23 days if the crafter has two assistants, or 17 if they have three.




Is there a point to upgrading a mundane weapon when by the time she gets it she'll probably have a couple +1 magical weapons on hand?

In this particular case, in the player's shoes I would just keep the adamantine battleaxe as it is and use it when relevant (since on top of being adamantine, keeping a defeated enemy's weapon is also awesome). Or I would see if any adamantine crafter or collector would be willing to exchange it for an adamantine greataxe.

[EggKookoo]

- Downtime is there for a reason. Adventurers aren't always adventuring, in most campaigns.

Yeah, my players seem downtime-averse.


In this particular case, in the player's shoes I would just keep the adamantine battleaxe as it is and use it when relevant (since on top of being adamantine, keeping a defeated enemy's weapon is also awesome). Or I would see if any adamantine crafter or collector would be willing to exchange it for an adamantine greataxe.

Oh, I didn't even think of an exchange. Even if there was a nominal cost to account for the difference, that should work. Gold isn't the problem...

Great suggestion, thanks!

[Zhorn]

As a DM I try and tweak the crafting rules to make them more attractive to my players to use.

As a player, I make frequent note of my character's interest in a crafting project, directing my character's actions in a direction that serve to act as preparation for said crafting. In response, the more agreeable DMs then incorporate the pursuit into the adventure; "lore has it a rare metal is found deep in the plot-related jungle" "the ancient temple for [x] plot point also has a library on topics related to your project" "in the treasure pile is a jar of residuum, which could be used to more quickly and easily imbue an enchantment into an object".

Generally it's a two way street, you as a DM need to help make such a pursuit viable for your players, but also you as a player cannot just wait for the DM to introduce it out of thin air and should supply the interest and motivation towards such an endeavour.
It's like with character backstory being mixed into a campaign, both player and DM need to work together to make it work in play.

[nickl_2000]

We do have crafting, but we definitely use house rules on crafting (or possible something the DM bought through DMsGuild and modified.

Our version allows for crafting regular, Masterwork, and Grandmasterwork items (Masterwork and Grandmaster work can have specific non-magical enhancement applied to them). Making items takes varying amounts of time and money and can be sold afterwards for a profit. Also, you can spend downtime and gold to train to become a Master X or a Grandmaster X to give you significant bonuses in crafting items. My current Paladin took 33 days to make his own full plate at a total cost of 585 gp, using masterwork smith tools and previously trained as a Master Blacksmith.

[Crucius]

I gave my players a boat and a large ocean separating most important landmarks, turning travel time into down time.

So far not a lot of crafting sadly, but the opportunity is there.

In campaigns I have played in we tackled crafting mostly in between sessions, because it's such a hassle at times, it's better done away from the game. (I believe MoG once said it is smart to bundle all bookkeeping stuff together so it doesn't detract from actual game time, and crafting to me is mostly a bookkeeping effort, hence doing it mostly OoC).

[nickl_2000]

I gave my players a boat and a large ocean separating most important landmarks, turning travel time into down time.

So far not a lot of crafting sadly, but the opportunity is there.

In campaigns I have played in we tackled crafting mostly in between sessions, because it's such a hassle at times, it's better done away from the game. (I believe MoG once said it is smart to bundle all bookkeeping stuff together so it doesn't detract from actual game time, and crafting to me is mostly a bookkeeping effort, hence doing it mostly OoC).

It really depends on what the PC is crafting. It isn't easy for someone to Blacksmith or Glassblow on a wooden boat, the amount of heat and fire required for those isn't the safest in that situation. That being said, there is no reason you couldn't do woodcarving.

[Arkhios]

Pursuing crafting added an interesting layer of depth to my Paladin (link below, if you're THAT interested).

Fluff-wise he used to be a clan-smith before he took to adventurer's life, and having descended from a legendary archmage (*gasp*, a bookworm had kids!?), his family has always emphasized higher learning, such as Arcane knowledge, which is why I took the proficiency in it. As XGtE came out, we soon discovered that proficiency in arcana is all it really needs to be able to craft magic arms and armor (aside from learning the formulae) and I found it rather fitting for a former smith to pursue magical crafting during their downtime.

[EggKookoo]

I gave my players a boat and a large ocean separating most important landmarks, turning travel time into down time.

My campaign is in Eberron (albeit fairly homebrewed). The PCs live in Sharn. So no shortage of talent to do the crafting, and really money even isn't the problem. But for the first three levels they haven't left the city, and have been plumbing the sub-urban depths as "dungeons." I don't think they've had a long rest outside their apartments yet.

I do have an upcoming chain that will finally take them out of the city, where they'll be roughing it in an honest-to-goodness classic dungeon. But even then, I'm only expecting it to run ~5 days in-game (maybe a little longer factoring travel time). They're near 4th now, and by the time they come out I wouldn't be shocked for them to be right about or even solidly into 5th.

[Unoriginal]

Pursuing crafting added an interesting layer of depth to my Paladin (link below, if you're THAT interested).

Fluff-wise he used to be a clan-smith before he took to adventurer's life, and having descended from a legendary archmage (*gasp*, a bookworm had kids!?), his family has always emphasized higher learning, such as Arcane knowledge, which is why I took the proficiency in it. As XGtE came out, we soon discovered that proficiency in arcana is all it really needs to be able to craft magic arms and armor (aside from learning the formulae) and I found it rather fitting for a former smith to pursue magical crafting during their downtime.

Also worth noting that just having proficiency in a set of tools let you craft magic items related to it, like the Jeweler's Kit allowing you to craft rings and circlets. Proving you have the formula, of course.

In my setting, wizardry started out as the merging of the professions of natural philosopher, asking how the world work, and of craftsperson, which is all about making tools to handle the world and can produce wonderous, magic objects, coupled with the study and experimentation of the rituals that allow non-casters to produce magical effects. It took them a good long while to even approach the powers of the Clerics and the Sorcerers

[NorthernPhoenix]

I'm generally of two minds regarding crafting. I'm not interested in crafting being an ideal or even good path to gaining more power in Grid Based Combat, so i don't mind that being a chore.

However, i do think if someone wants to craft regular stuff just to be "Blacksmith Guy" or the equivalent, they should be able to do so easily. So i try to enable that with quick and simplified mundane crafting.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Nope.

Players wanna play. DMs wanna run. There isn't much really crafting coherence in the DMG, and not every player has the DMG to know what they can and cannot accomplish during downtime. These facts point to my nope.

All I've seen of crafting is out of game dm to player chats about what the player wants and how close to that goal the DM says they get in the time available.

But none of it is done with table time. Never. That time is sacred.

[LordCdrMilitant]

Yes, sort of.

I usually allow the players to commission products from local merchants, or commission upgrades to their stuff. One of my players likes the have their weapon(s) plated in gold in literally every campaign, and I usually humor this, for example, but they have to hire a jeweler to do it.

I usually discourage players from making something themselves, on the ground that unless you're a blacksmith [which you're not, you're an adventurer], no, the best you're going to get if you try to make a sword, magical or not, is a lumpy, brittle, and definitely not remotely sharp piece of maladjusted metal. This also gives me more control over what items are issued to the party.

[nickl_2000]

Yes, sort of.

I usually allow the players to commission products from local merchants, or commission upgrades to their stuff. One of my players likes the have their weapon(s) plated in gold in literally every campaign, and I usually humor this, for example, but they have to hire a jeweler to do it.

I usually discourage players from making something themselves, on the ground that unless you're a blacksmith [which you're not, you're an adventurer], no, the best you're going to get if you try to make a sword, magical or not, is a lumpy, brittle, and definitely not remotely sharp piece of maladjusted metal. This also gives me more control over what items are issued to the party.

I don't understand this at all. Would you not allow anyone to make a decent disguise with a disguise kit? Or they couldn't pick a lot with proficiency with a thieves kit? I guess I can get that you don't want to deal with it, but if your player invested in getting proficiency in Smith's tools they should be able to do some smithing. Same for a glassblowing kit, they have learned how to blow glass.

Do you give other uses in campaign for artisan's kits?

[N810]

How long to just swap out the handle ? (one handed to 2 handed) :/

[EggKookoo]

How long to just swap out the handle ? (one handed to 2 handed) :/

I guess it follows that if there's enough adamantine to make a greataxe head, the heads are similar enough in size that swapping out the handle would work.

[Waazraath]

Has anyone ever found item crafting to be worth the in-game time suggested by the rules?

Specific example: My fighter has a nonmagical greataxe. She took an adamantine battleaxe off a monster and asked about having the adamantine melted down and used to coat the blade of her greataxe. I figured, sure, why not? Despite the possible size difference of the heads of both axes, I was okay with there being enough adamantine to make the greataxe head effectively adamantine-coated. And for all I know, the axe heads are more or less the same size. So, great, let's do it.

Then I looked up how long it would take a smith to do this for her. I had trouble finding examples of adamantine, but getting a weapon silvered seems to be more common and I found examples of people discussing it online. The general consensus is that it takes something in the range of 20 in-game days to silver a weapon. My PCs are level 3. They started at 1st level and have been playing in-game for three weeks at most. Twenty in-game days from now, I expect these guys to be pushing 10th level. PCs level fast in 5e.

Is there a point to upgrading a mundane weapon when by the time she gets it she'll probably have a couple +1 magical weapons on hand?

Nope, can't say I have. Both lack of downtime, and most campaigns were more in the direction of "too many magic items" than "too little".

[heavyfuel]

Has anyone ever found item crafting to be worth the in-game time suggested by the rules?

Kinda. It was part of my background, so it didn't take in game time.

Had a character once who was part of a tribe whose warriors had the custom of forging their own equipment. I asked the DM if I could use my starting gold to purchase iron ore, which I would craft into steel, which I would craft into a plate mail and longsword.

Since I had proficiency with smith tools, the DM gave it a thumbs up and I got to craft my equipment for 1/4 its price.

(1/4 the price because every crafting step reduces the price you pay by half, and there were two steps. Iron and Carbon into steel, steel into equipment)

[Dork_Forge]

I usually try to craft or commission something when I play, my players usually tend to have things commissioned instead of crafting themselves (though to be fair they usually don't have any tool profs that lend to crafting).

[HappyDaze]

Crafting (and all other downtime) is basically what happens between the pages of the D&D5e superheroes comic. Just roll a d20, refer to vague skill guidelines for 30 seconds, and move on. The game barely cares about such things and just wants you to get back to bashing monsters. I've tried to make 5e about more, but it's an exercise in futility, so now I just go with the fantasy superheroes bit the rules actually support.

[EggKookoo]

I've tried to make 5e about more, but it's an exercise in futility, so now I just go with the fantasy superheroes bit the rules actually support.

I don't find a lack of rules support for crafting, just rather the rules suggest such long crafting times that I'm not certain it's worth it. Crafting is (and should be) a good money sink. But it's also a huge in-game time sink. I wish the crafting rules supported a kind of craft-as-you-adventure approach.

[chainer1216]

I'm convinced that the only reason crafting rules exist in 5e is so that when someone who is interested in them looks at them, they immediately say "oh, nevermind, that'll take way too long."

[Arkhios]

Also worth noting that just having proficiency in a set of tools let you craft magic items related to it, like the Jeweler's Kit allowing you to craft rings and circlets. Proving you have the formula, of course.

In my setting, wizardry started out as the merging of the professions of natural philosopher, asking how the world work, and of craftsperson, which is all about making tools to handle the world and can produce wonderous, magic objects, coupled with the study and experimentation of the rituals that allow non-casters to produce magical effects. It took them a good long while to even approach the powers of the Clerics and the Sorcerers

To be fair, I didn't pay as much attention to the original crafting rules at the time I made the character, and I chose the blacksmith's tools in character creation purely because at that time it made the most sense, and didn't think about it further than that. The real reason for taking proficiency in Arcana, for me, was the character's lineage. When XGtE came out, I had grown to like and thus, pay more attention to those details of my character, so naturally I was curious about how they changed it. That said, my previous post was made from memory, and I failed my check to remember it word for word. It's true that proficiency in relevant tools is enough even for crafting magical items of relevant type. But having proficiency in Arcana makes it possible to craft any magic items, as long as other prerequisites are met.


I'm convinced that the only reason crafting rules exist in 5e is so that when someone who is interested in them looks at them, they immediately say "oh, nevermind, that'll take way too long."

Those people should learn to enjoy immersive roleplaying a bit more. Adventurers don't adventure 24/7. They're supposed to be living individuals, with a lot more to do with their lives than to just wait for their next kill. Ideally, a (good) campaign takes far longer than a few (in-game) weeks to complete. In-game years, if not decades, are much more plausible, and frankly can be very rewarding in the long term in regards to player experience.

[heavyfuel]

I'm convinced that the only reason crafting rules exist in 5e is so that when someone who is interested in them looks at them, they immediately say "oh, nevermind, that'll take way too long."

A lot of people say that, but I actually qute like the crafting in 5e.

IIRC, you craft 5gp per day, which means you can craft a Chain Shirt in 10 days. That's actually pretty quick. Back when I wanted to get one for myself, I recall having to wait months for it (which is why I gave up).

You can craft a longbow in 10 days as well. That's pretty darn fast.

Plate mail is the most expensive thing you can craft and it takes 300 days. Which is definitely a lot, but that's more to do with the completely absurd price of a Plate Mail.

[Naanomi]

Crafting expensive spell components (mostly but not exclusively through Jeweler's Tools) has been a go-to downtime activity for players in games I've played in

[EggKookoo]

Those people should learn to enjoy immersive roleplaying a bit more. Adventurers don't adventure 24/7. They're supposed to be living individuals, with a lot more to do with their lives than to just wait for their next kill. Ideally, a (good) campaign takes far longer than a few (in-game) weeks to complete. In-game years, if not decades, are much more plausible, and frankly can be very rewarding in the long term in regards to player experience.

I'm in a bit of a trap at the moment. I set an event to happen in about 10 in-game days (big party with wealthy folks). The players want to cram as much adventure time in before that. So I can't just fast-forward.

I do expect them to be pretty exhausted by the time it comes around, though.

[LordCdrMilitant]

I don't understand this at all. Would you not allow anyone to make a decent disguise with a disguise kit? Or they couldn't pick a lot with proficiency with a thieves kit? I guess I can get that you don't want to deal with it, but if your player invested in getting proficiency in Smith's tools they should be able to do some smithing. Same for a glassblowing kit, they have learned how to blow glass.

Do you give other uses in campaign for artisan's kits?

They can use disguise and thieves tools sets because a couple pound toolbox does in fact contain everything you need to use them.

In order to work metal you require furnaces and anvils and grinders and a whole building full of specialized stuff. A local blacksmith isn't going to let you walk in and use their equipment, since it's their business and their livelihood. So you can use Smiths Tools to do anything that you might do with a hammer, tongs, charcoal, rags, and a whetstone.

If a player was set on forging their own equipment, I would definitely make it a reasonably involved process, with having to buy or rent a property, have it outfitted as a foundry, deal with local guilds [and maybe local criminal organizations too], arrange contracts for supplies, and then make their stuff. And then it would become a continuing plot point, since they've now got upkeep and obligations as a blacksmith in the city.



It's not that I don't want to deal with it. I can deal with it just fine. But I don't want the players to be that self sufficient from the world.

[Naanomi]

If a player was set on forging their own equipment, I would definitely make it a reasonably involved process, with having to buy or rent a property, have it outfitted as a foundry, deal with local guilds [and maybe local criminal organizations too], arrange contracts for supplies, and then make their stuff. And then it would become a continuing plot point, since they've now got upkeep and obligations as a blacksmith in the city.
'Hi, I'm a priest of the god of the forge. I'm going to use your forge for a few days, and I'll pay for your help on this project. If you don't, I suspect the boss won't like it'

[nickl_2000]

They can use disguise and thieves tools sets because a couple pound toolbox does in fact contain everything you need to use them.

In order to work metal you require furnaces and anvils and grinders and a whole building full of specialized stuff. A local blacksmith isn't going to let you walk in and use their equipment, since it's their business and their livelihood. So you can use Smiths Tools to do anything that you might do with a hammer, tongs, charcoal, rags, and a whetstone.

If a player was set on forging their own equipment, I would definitely make it a reasonably involved process, with having to buy or rent a property, have it outfitted as a foundry, deal with local guilds [and maybe local criminal organizations too], arrange contracts for supplies, and then make their stuff. And then it would become a continuing plot point, since they've now got upkeep and obligations as a blacksmith in the city.

I agree that you do need extra tools and a PC shouldn't be able to forge while out adventuring. It seems like you are adding additional complications that really aren't needed. However, if you like and and your table likes it, embrace what makes all of you happy.

One of my current PCs is a Blacksmith who ended Dragonheist and is entering Mad Mage. The DM made sure that a forge was available close to our home and I had a small sidequest to earn the right to use it alongside them (plus a small daily fee when I do need to use it). He is a member of the Waterdeep Blacksmith's guild and has to pay yearly dues to it.

[Unoriginal]

One of my current PCs is a Blacksmith who ended Dragonheist and is entering Mad Mage. The DM made sure that a forge was available close to our home

The one run by the Genasi couple?

[cutlery]

A handful of low level scrolls for a warlock seems useful; particularly useful spells that don't scale (hex, misty step, darkness).

[LordCdrMilitant]

'Hi, I'm a priest of the god of the forge. I'm going to use your forge for a few days, and I'll pay for your help on this project. If you don't, I suspect the boss won't like it'

"Are you threatening me?"

If my players tried that, they wouldn't get far. Especially because that would be dramatic overreach of their authority as a cleric, and both the smith, player, and clergy of the town would know that. It would probably become an interesting quest from there.



I agree that you do need extra tools and a PC shouldn't be able to forge while out adventuring. It seems like you are adding additional complications that really aren't needed. However, if you like and and your table likes it, embrace what makes all of you happy.

One of my current PCs is a Blacksmith who ended Dragonheist and is entering Mad Mage. The DM made sure that a forge was available close to our home and I had a small sidequest to earn the right to use it alongside them (plus a small daily fee when I do need to use it). He is a member of the Waterdeep Blacksmith's guild and has to pay yearly dues to it.

I want them to be involved with the world and not self-sufficient, and anything that makes them self sufficient should also tie them down and make them involved locally.

[nickl_2000]

I want them to be involved with the world and not self-sufficient, and anything that makes them self sufficient should also tie them down and make them involved locally.

The thing I find most interesting about this is that there is a lot more roleplaying in the mini quest to get access to the forge than there would have been if I had just bought the full plate in my group. Purchases like this are made during downtime and has no RPing involved.

[LordCdrMilitant]

The thing I find most interesting about this is that there is a lot more roleplaying in the mini quest to get access to the forge than there would have been if I had just bought the full plate in my group. Purchases like this are made during downtime and has no RPing involved.

I would consider having to lease land [that's properly zoned for the work they intend to do], commission equipment and construction of their facility, make sure they're compliant with the fantasy EPA and OSHA, deal with the local blacksmith's guild [who almost certainly are going to pressure you into becoming a registered guild member and abiding by their by-laws if you want to work in town], contract iron, coke, and coal deliveries from mine owners, etc. to be plenty of roleplaying.

And also, commissions a nice thing from an established blacksmith would be less complicated, but would require at least negotiation with and meeting the blacksmith, if not more as I think of more things to have them do. Getting anything special not produced on an industrial scale is more complicated than walking into Target, putting it in your cart, and checking out.

[EggKookoo]

The thing I find most interesting about this is that there is a lot more roleplaying in the mini quest to get access to the forge than there would have been if I had just bought the full plate in my group. Purchases like this are made during downtime and has no RPing involved.

Not so much at my table. If a PC wants to buy a set of full plate, that's a trip to the smith, with conversations and negotiations. My current game is based out of Sharn, so finding a smith capable of making a set of full plate shouldn't be too hard. There should be a few vendors, some even with suits on hand. But in a smaller setting, it might not be possible to buy a full suit, or it might be something that has to be commissioned.

Generally, though, my players don't buy gear once past PC-creation. They use what they find as they adventure, and it's more or less up to me to make sure there's a trickle of interesting items in the game for them to find (it's up to them to find them, though).

I do have one player who likes the idea of crafting his own stuff, which is what led me to my original question in the first place.

[Naanomi]

"Are you threatening me?"

If my players tried that, they wouldn't get far. Especially because that would be dramatic overreach of their authority as a cleric, and both the smith, player, and clergy of the town would know that. It would probably become an interesting quest from there.
That depends a lot on the forge God in question I would think; and how their temples run... and I would suspect more villages to have access to a forge and smith than I would expect to have a functioning religious body (let alone one of any specific God, particularly in a decent sized pantheon)

[LordCdrMilitant]

That depends a lot on the forge God in question I would think; and how their temples run... and I would suspect more villages to have access to a forge and smith than I would expect to have a functioning religious body (let alone one of any specific God, particularly in a decent sized pantheon)

Well, if they have a smith and no functioning local church, they're really not going to accept that kind of threat. Invoking that kind of threat is intrinsically saying you're backed by the [assumedly very wealthy and politically powerful, as such organizations tend to be] organization that is the clergy. If that organization doesn't actually have anyone here but you, and basically never does, then you're really not invoking any kind of practical power to intimidate the smith to do anything for you.

Indimidation only works if the power invoked is a valid threat, so if you're predicating your threat on being part of a larger organization, that organization generally should have some ability to actually exert that power if it comes to it. Otherwise, having the barbarian threaten to rip his arms off would be more effective.

A smith in a big town might be beholden to the local clergy of the craftsman god like a sort of trade union, and pay them a share of his profits to be permitted to work in the city, but then he'd also know that you'd probably be overstepping the bounds of your authority and his degree of contract with the church in most cases and could theoretically take it to the local bishop, especially if there's a lot of money on the line like the cost of a magic item.
A smith in a small town that doesn't have a local clergy representative isn't beholden to the church in any more than a strictly abstract sense, and so also wouldn't just give in to empty threats on a big ticket item which could seriously affect their livelihood.



This just comes down to the point that it's almost always better to be nice than forceful.

[Unoriginal]

Well, if they have a smith and no functioning local church, they're really not going to accept that kind of threat. Invoking that kind of threat is intrinsically saying you're backed by the [assumedly very wealthy and politically powerful, as such organizations tend to be] organization that is the clergy. If that organization doesn't actually have anyone here but you, and basically never does, then you're really not invoking any kind of practical power to intimidate the smith to do anything for you.

I think you missed the part about being backed up by an actual god of the smith's profession.



Indimidation only works if the power invoked is a valid threat

[...]

This just comes down to the point that it's almost always better to be nice than forceful.

1) The Cleric in the example offered payment first

2) Being one of the literal chosen ones of a god and a literal miracle maker is a valid threat, especially if the smith is a believer of said god.


Your post seems to assume the people don't worship very real entities with influence on the world out of genuine belief, and rather only obey to churches because churches are organizazions able to apply political and economical pressures.

[LordCdrMilitant]

I think you missed the part about being backed up by an actual god of the smith's profession.

1) The Cleric in the example offered payment first

2) Being one of the literal chosen ones of a god and a literal miracle maker is a valid threat, especially if the smith is a believer of said god.

Your post seems to assume the people don't worship very real entities with influence on the world out of genuine belief, and rather only obey to churches because churches are organizazions able to apply political and economical pressures.

Since when have the gods of D&D actually done anything. Like, sure, the gods are definitely there, but if the god won't intervene to stop Evil McLich from zombifying the province, which would undoubtably be a more severe effect both on their chosen ones and their ostensible charges, like why would they intervene to support one of their random clerics from abusing one of their random followers.

Like, the god is an object of reverence, but they are not in fact any meaningful inference on the life or livelihood of a random smith in a small town, to whom a travelling cleric would be a "so what" type of circumstance. In fact, I think the fact that the gods exist lends less credence to the idea, since you can't really hold over them the existential and unproveable threat of eternal torture and suffering after death from displeasing you, since like yes, hell heaven, and everywhere else around the alignment chart exist and they know exactly what it takes to get there, and displeasing a wandering adventurer cleric isn't generally one of those thing.


[Also, if you're patronized by the god of smiths, ostensibly you're empowered to support and champion their cause, and should patronize their shop to support them, their work, and their family and stop trying to intimidate your way to a 50% discount. Just maybe. But that's a GM's take on how the god might react if it were to somehow reach their notice.]

[Naanomi]

organization that is the clergy. If that organization doesn't actually have anyone here but you, and basically never does, then you're really not invoking any kind of practical power to intimidate the smith to do anything for you.
Not from the church (though that may be at play)... from the God. Not being willing to help the literal chosen representative of the patron of your profession? Probably not a good business move for you.

And you are making a lot of assumptions about the benevolence of said Deity, my actual Forge cleric is a priest of Kossuth; neutral power of Fire and crafting with flame (amongst other things), whose doctrine is very much a 'dominate others when you can, take what you can, those who cannot face the challenges of life this way are iron to be reforged or slag to be discarded'... probably not someone local blacksmith who makes horeshoes most of their time wants to stand in the way of (and frankly, I *would* burn their forge... and potentially them... down if I needed to, probably depends a bit on what the Augury spell said about it if I was rebuked)

[LordCdrMilitant]

Not from the church (though that may be at play)... from the God. Not being willing to help the literal chosen representative of the patron of your profession? Probably not a good business move for you.

And you are making a lot of assumptions about the benevolence of said Deity, my actual Forge cleric is a priest of Kossuth; neutral power of Fire and crafting with flame (amongst other things), whose doctrine is very much a 'dominate others when you can, take what you can, those who cannot face the challenges of life this way are iron to be reforged or slag to be discarded'... probably not someone local blacksmith who makes horeshoes most of their time wants to stand in the way of (and frankly, I *would* burn their forge... and potentially them... down if I needed to, probably depends a bit on what the Augury spell said about it if I was rebuked)

I mean, as a GM, I usually have the citizens of the world react pretty unfavorably to arbitrary cruelty [which, since burning down his installation would get you neither the 50% discount nor the item at all would definitely be and only achieves killing and alienating a follower, so I'm also 99% certain a neutral god who does somehow care would not endorse], so like, I mean you can...

Also, invoking the power of a D&D god is worth about as far as you than throw a stone. Like, as I said, the gods manifestly do not care and that's entirely obvious, and two, you're not the, you're a, and one of tens of thousands at that, most of whom are better behaved.

Also, this being a D&D world where the gods definitely exist and there are many of them, Human Blacksmith A has his choice of like 4 different gods to turn to, all of whom are very real, very apathetic, and definitely have their own clerics who might take issue with you.

And threatening to burn their forge down is exactly the same as the barbarian threatening to rip their arms off, so like any religious standing is pretty much irrelevant in that threat.

[Naanomi]

It wouldn't be a threat, it would be a promise. If the God said that is what I should do, I would do it. I am much more of a religious fanatic than I am someone who cares about coin.

How active the Gods are is very setting dependent, and most setting assumptions don't have 'capital C' Clerics running around every step of the church hierarchy; the general assumption is that PCs of any significant levels are exceptional people of exceptional importance and ability.

I'm still a little confused about why 'guy who makes horseshoes' wouldn't be interested in helping someone make a helmet when offered to be paid (probably more than he'd make in a year)... I'm also a bit confused how anyone makes a profit doing anything with all the barriers in place your world appears to have, how did this guy I'm trying to pay to help me even start his business in the first place if he would functionally have to be an adventurer for a side-quest before even using the forge in the first place, let alone all the additional costs apparently present?

Luckily, the spell Fabricate (and the forge cleric ability) negates 40%+ or so of the need for middle men for mid level adventurers anyways, it is a wonder anyone stays in business in your setting that defaults to mid level spellcasters being present by the tens of thousands

[OvisCaedo]

I think the effectiveness of threats on the civilian populace might be a bit of a sidetracking for this topic. And... also does not seem at all like the appropriate way good or neutral adventurers would try to gain access to facilities for what's supposed to be a simple-to-run downtime activity. Probably just paying a rental fee is, if it needs to come up. By the PHB, 'gainful employment' seems to equate to about two gold a day, so paying a worker for shared temporary access to their workshop probably wouldn't need to be too expensive. Xanathar's makes it a bit more complicated to guess at how much money a day someone might make, but, eh. It's supposed to be a simple activity without much fuss.

To me the bigger issue with crafting as a concept is just... whether or not a given campaign has or should have anywhere near the kind of downtime these things call for. And most of the other downtime forms, too. Which I guess is, fine? not every mechanic will fit into every campaign, I suppose. I think the base time some things take by PHB rules sound absurd, though Xanathar's made a lot of them significantly more reasonable.

[Asisreo1]

A lot of people say that, but I actually qute like the crafting in 5e.

IIRC, you craft 5gp per day, which means you can craft a Chain Shirt in 10 days. That's actually pretty quick. Back when I wanted to get one for myself, I recall having to wait months for it (which is why I gave up).

You can craft a longbow in 10 days as well. That's pretty darn fast.

Plate mail is the most expensive thing you can craft and it takes 300 days. Which is definitely a lot, but that's more to do with the completely absurd price of a Plate Mail.
Yep, a crafty player actually can craft things mid-adventure, too. As long as they aren't being too greedy about it.

You can make 100 arrows in a day's time. Arrows don't require much, either. Forgot a bedroll? Eh, we'll just craft some before we start the rest. Rogues can just make their own caltrops, probably out of wood or stone. Don't have light? Craft a torch. Don't have a small container? Craft a glass bottle. Have some rags on-hand? Make a tent.

Plenty of things to craft within a day, you just aren't going to get much mileage trying to constantly craft magic items or extremely expensive equipment.

[Naanomi]

Yep, a crafty player actually can craft things mid-adventure, too. As long as they aren't being too greedy about it.

You can make 100 arrows in a day's time. Arrows don't require much, either. Forgot a bedroll? Eh, we'll just craft some before we start the rest. Rogues can just make their own caltrops, probably out of wood or stone. Don't have light? Craft a torch. Don't have a small container? Craft a glass bottle. Have some rags on-hand? Make a tent.

Plenty of things to craft within a day, you just aren't going to get much mileage trying to constantly craft magic items or extremely expensive equipment.
Well, and to spread out over time as well. It is very thematic for my Forge Cleric to craft a hammer over months of travel time, even if in practice it would probably be easier to find or buy one

[Unoriginal]

Since when have the gods of D&D actually done anything.

Depending on the setting, but the usual answer is "since every single day".



Like, sure, the gods are definitely there, but if the god won't intervene to stop Evil McLich from zombifying the province, which would undoubtably be a more severe effect both on their chosen ones and their ostensible charges, like why would they intervene to support one of their random clerics from abusing one of their random followers.

Of course the god intervene to stop Evil McLich. They sent their cleric to carry out their miracles.



Like, the god is an object of reverence, but they are not in fact any meaningful inference on the life or livelihood of a random smith in a small town, to whom a travelling cleric would be a "so what" type of circumstance. In fact, I think the fact that the gods exist lends less credence to the idea, since you can't really hold over them the existential and unproveable threat of eternal torture and suffering after death from displeasing you, since like yes, hell heaven, and everywhere else around the alignment chart exist and they know exactly what it takes to get there, and displeasing a wandering adventurer cleric isn't generally one of those thing.

Not every mortal is an expert at what happens after death, and even if it's the case "your god claims your soul after death" supersedes the alignment influence on where you end up.



[Also, if you're patronized by the god of smiths, ostensibly you're empowered to support and champion their cause, and should patronize their shop to support them, their work, and their family and stop trying to intimidate your way to a 50% discount. Just maybe. But that's a GM's take on how the god might react if it were to somehow reach their notice.]

You seems determined to see the situation as an adventurer abusing their power to force a random person to do what they want, rather than as a cleric mentioning "yo I'm a big deal with the god you worship" as an additional argument after proposing payment in order to sway a fellow craftsman who might otherwise be more reluctant to agree.

Furthermore, it goes both way. If the cleric is patronized by the god of smiths, then it stand to reasons that smiths who do worship said god would be more willing to help out the cleric rather than treating them like any random stranger.

[LordCdrMilitant]

It wouldn't be a threat, it would be a promise. If the God said that is what I should do, I would do it. I am much more of a religious fanatic than I am someone who cares about coin.

How active the Gods are is very setting dependent, and most setting assumptions don't have 'capital C' Clerics running around every step of the church hierarchy; the general assumption is that PCs of any significant levels are exceptional people of exceptional importance and ability.

I'm still a little confused about why 'guy who makes horseshoes' wouldn't be interested in helping someone make a helmet when offered to be paid (probably more than he'd make in a year)... I'm also a bit confused how anyone makes a profit doing anything with all the barriers in place your world appears to have, how did this guy I'm trying to pay to help me even start his business in the first place if he would functionally have to be an adventurer for a side-quest before even using the forge in the first place, let alone all the additional costs apparently present?

Luckily, the spell Fabricate (and the forge cleric ability) negates 40%+ or so of the need for middle men for mid level adventurers anyways, it is a wonder anyone stays in business in your setting that defaults to mid level spellcasters being present by the tens of thousands

Uhh......

Yeah, not every member of a church is a cleric. But a nonzero number of them are.
I have a demographic chart calculated from somewhere that estimates based on the estimated population of the 1400 old world that there are about 2500000 characters of level 1+ in the world if .5% of them have class levels. Split between the twelve classes, that's 200000 clerics. Split between a couple of dozen gods, there's still tens of thousands of clerics of your god.

They get training by apprenticing themselves to a smith to learn the trade for their childhood, then becoming a smith themselves.




You seems determined to see the situation as an adventurer abusing their power to force a random person to do what they want, rather than as a cleric mentioning "yo I'm a big deal with the god you worship" as an additional argument after proposing payment in order to sway a fellow craftsman who might otherwise be more reluctant to agree.

Furthermore, it goes both way. If the cleric is patronized by the god of smiths, then it stand to reasons that smiths who do worship said god would be more willing to help out the cleric rather than treating them like any random stranger.

Uh yeah. They explicitly threatened the smith in question with A: a non-effective threat of "my god will be displeased with you" and then B: "I'm going to kill you and burn down your home and family".

Which isn't something nice like "hey, I'm a cleric of the god of craftsmen, I can enchant your forge to burn at more constant temperature to produce more consistently carbonized steel, in exchange will you make me this magic item?"



Depending on the setting, but the usual answer is "since every single day".

Of course the god intervene to stop Evil McLich. They sent their cleric to carry out their miracles.

Not every mortal is an expert at what happens after death, and even if it's the case "your god claims your soul after death" supersedes the alignment influence on where you end up.

We live in a world where there isn't a guarantee on what happens after death, and pretty much everybody has some definition of the concept even if they're not congruous. In a world where A: the gods definitely exist, and B: the afterlife definitely exists, then I find it moderately unreasonable for an average citizen to have never been informed on the absolutely known nature of the afterlives.

Also, like I don't know about you, but I don't think I've ever seen a cleric in play, in published adventures, or in other people's play actually ever get divinely ordained to do anything. Given that A: gods can directly tell their clerics to do things [and don't, mostly just letting them wander around and amass personal fortune], and B: can directly smite things if they really care, I think it's pretty safe to assume that Cleric #3438 wandering into and destroying Evil McLich on their own initiative was in fact not a "just as planned" by the god in question, unless they're maybe the God of Fate.

Also, if "god claims your soul" overrode general behavior for every singe passive worshipper, then there wouldn't be behavior-determined afterlives, because it's also safe to assume that in a world where there are gods that are in fact known to exist, everybody is a worshipper of somebody.

[Naanomi]

Which isn't something nice like "hey, I'm a cleric of the god of craftsmen, I can enchant your forge to burn at more constant temperature to produce more consistently carbonized steel, in exchange will you make me this magic item?"
Yeah, Kossith isn't a nice God of the Forge, following his ethos is not going to be very nice... and I don't have any tools to enchant someone's forge in any meaningful way on my spell list (and I'm not asking for them to make a magic item, I just want to use their forge for a while for my own pet projects, they are welcome to assist... my proficiency bonus is probably higher than theirs anyways)

[LordCdrMilitant]

Yeah, Kossith isn't a nice God of the Forge, following his ethos is not going to be very nice... and I don't have any tools to enchant someone's forge in any meaningful way on my spell list (and I'm not asking for them to make a magic item, I just want to use their forge for a while for my own pet projects, they are welcome to assist... my proficiency bonus is probably higher than theirs anyways)

Kossuth in forgotten realms is listed as the Lawful Neutral God of Elemental Fire. Lawful Neutral is not Lawful Evil. He also opposes general chaos and disorder. If I was the GM and I was inclined to make the god intervene [He's also stated explicitly as being entirely apathetic to mortal affairs], I'm 99% certain that he wouldn't be intervening on the side of someone not only being needlessly and unproductively cruel but also being a generally destabilizing influence. Also, his notable "got up off his ass to do something" moment is being invoked to destroy an invading army, and then immediately turning around and destroying the people who called him for calling him to do their bidding.

There's also like 4 other dieties that also have craftsmen and smiths in their purview, like Gond, Moradin, Flandal, etc. all of whom the smith I would say is more probable to follow, and if the gods actually care enough to take objection, would presumably take objection.


I am not your GM. This is essentially my take on the situation, because we're getting a little off topic on the subject of players crafting things.

If players want to make custom things themselves, I'm going to make it a fairly involved [but hopefully fun] quest line to be able to do so, in part so that getting their ideal piece of kit is a reward, in part to tie said ideal piece of kit and the player to an amount of effort in the world.

[Naanomi]

Kossith is the primary deity of the Red Wizards of Thay, he is Evil Tolerant at the very least (also historically he, and all the other Elemental Powers, were True Neutral, not sure when he changed to Lawful but... his followers are pretty dogmatic, it wouldn't be unreasonable)