Bansheexero
2020-08-31, 10:43 AM
So, one thing I had been trying to work out in my head for quite some time is how to advance a character either into epic level or into a deity in pathfinder. I realize that there have been some conversions made in an attempt to adapt the 3.0 epic rules, but that was wonky even back in 3.0/3.5 days. There a number of issues that seem to arise from proceeding past level 20, that I feel need to be addressed.
1). Base Attack Bonus - in 3.0 Epic Level Handbook (ELH), regardless of which class you play, after level 20 the BAB slows down to 1/2 progression. While it may not seem significant at first, you can see just how wildly it would affect players who decide to multiclass based on the order in which they do so. A simple example would be a player who is a lvl 20 fighter and a lvl 20 wizard. Based on the order in which he takes said classes, his BAB could be either +30 (fighter first, then wizard) or +20 (wizard first, then fighter), despite both having access to level 9 spells and all fighter's feats. This is a simple example, but it gets even worse if you stagger levels or multiclass into more than 2 classes.
2). Saves - Saving throws suffer a similar fate, since past level 20 in the ELH, all saves gain good progression.
3). Capstones - In Pathfinder, these tend to elicit a strong degree of finality to any given class. Where do you go from there? Expand the capstone? If you set it that you can only reach level 20 in any single class, you are limiting possible character options quite noticeably.
4). Epic Spells - the system in the ELH is extremely messy and wonky, especially given that you not only have to create the spells as very expensive and difficult to craft magic items, you have to succeed on the Spellcraft DC used to create the spell every time you cast it. This might be somewhat remedied by taking spell levels above 9th, but there would need to be a much clearer understanding of the qualitative improvements of spells at each spell level, not merely quantitative improvements.
5). Skill Points - probably less obvious, but with the potential for infinite leveling comes the potential for infinite Intelligence, meaning at some point you will have more skill points than you could fit in all of the limited number of skills you have (outside of the potential variety of Craft, Profession, Lore, and Artistry, which seems like just throwing away skill points after a certain point).
That said, there are a few opportunities beyond character concepts that arise as well, such as the following -
1). Skill Unlocks - where most classes other than Unchained Rogues only get to pick one skill to unlock via the Signature Skill feat, this limitation could be mitigated based on overall character level. More than that, while extremely exaggerated, the ELH had some truly legendary potential skill uses (like swimming up a waterfall or hiding somebody your own size in the square in which you are standing). These could possibly be brought back.
2). Fighting Styles - an interesting example in one of the third party books was a progression past two weapon fighting called, surprise surprise, three weapon fighting which, from what I could ascertain from the description, worked like juggling. Also, there comes potential for expanded style-type feats, and possibly expanding into something akin to style feats for casters, which if somebody is creative enough, could be really interesting.
3). Epic Spells - While the ELH version is extremely wonky, it did have some very interesting and powerful spell ideas. I feel like this might work better if progressed a la Spheres of Power rather than the Vancian system, but finding means by which to create epic level magic talents seems like it could go sideways quickly.
These are just some of the issues and opportunities I've noticed, but no doubt that there are more. As for the other side of the coin, becoming a deity at some point seems like it has similar issues, but feels like a way to further define and develop character concepts. I realize that Mythic Tiers are sort of a compromise, purview specific abilities presented in 3.0 Deities and Demigods, can truly define deific powers (like Life and Death (and its Mass form), artifact crafting, portfolio sense (like Hades being able to sense a person's death 17 months prior and maintains the sensation 17 months afterward), and a bunch more). Interestingly, the Book of Immortals (3rd party) had an interesting way of powering up characters in a vein similar to Mythic Tiers, but also defined your character by removing aspects of free will, and as such created interesting mindsets that feel more specialized as might happen for gods. Still, that was an even messier ruleset than the already confusing epic rules.
Any thoughts on this matter would be appreciated, thanks in advance.
1). Base Attack Bonus - in 3.0 Epic Level Handbook (ELH), regardless of which class you play, after level 20 the BAB slows down to 1/2 progression. While it may not seem significant at first, you can see just how wildly it would affect players who decide to multiclass based on the order in which they do so. A simple example would be a player who is a lvl 20 fighter and a lvl 20 wizard. Based on the order in which he takes said classes, his BAB could be either +30 (fighter first, then wizard) or +20 (wizard first, then fighter), despite both having access to level 9 spells and all fighter's feats. This is a simple example, but it gets even worse if you stagger levels or multiclass into more than 2 classes.
2). Saves - Saving throws suffer a similar fate, since past level 20 in the ELH, all saves gain good progression.
3). Capstones - In Pathfinder, these tend to elicit a strong degree of finality to any given class. Where do you go from there? Expand the capstone? If you set it that you can only reach level 20 in any single class, you are limiting possible character options quite noticeably.
4). Epic Spells - the system in the ELH is extremely messy and wonky, especially given that you not only have to create the spells as very expensive and difficult to craft magic items, you have to succeed on the Spellcraft DC used to create the spell every time you cast it. This might be somewhat remedied by taking spell levels above 9th, but there would need to be a much clearer understanding of the qualitative improvements of spells at each spell level, not merely quantitative improvements.
5). Skill Points - probably less obvious, but with the potential for infinite leveling comes the potential for infinite Intelligence, meaning at some point you will have more skill points than you could fit in all of the limited number of skills you have (outside of the potential variety of Craft, Profession, Lore, and Artistry, which seems like just throwing away skill points after a certain point).
That said, there are a few opportunities beyond character concepts that arise as well, such as the following -
1). Skill Unlocks - where most classes other than Unchained Rogues only get to pick one skill to unlock via the Signature Skill feat, this limitation could be mitigated based on overall character level. More than that, while extremely exaggerated, the ELH had some truly legendary potential skill uses (like swimming up a waterfall or hiding somebody your own size in the square in which you are standing). These could possibly be brought back.
2). Fighting Styles - an interesting example in one of the third party books was a progression past two weapon fighting called, surprise surprise, three weapon fighting which, from what I could ascertain from the description, worked like juggling. Also, there comes potential for expanded style-type feats, and possibly expanding into something akin to style feats for casters, which if somebody is creative enough, could be really interesting.
3). Epic Spells - While the ELH version is extremely wonky, it did have some very interesting and powerful spell ideas. I feel like this might work better if progressed a la Spheres of Power rather than the Vancian system, but finding means by which to create epic level magic talents seems like it could go sideways quickly.
These are just some of the issues and opportunities I've noticed, but no doubt that there are more. As for the other side of the coin, becoming a deity at some point seems like it has similar issues, but feels like a way to further define and develop character concepts. I realize that Mythic Tiers are sort of a compromise, purview specific abilities presented in 3.0 Deities and Demigods, can truly define deific powers (like Life and Death (and its Mass form), artifact crafting, portfolio sense (like Hades being able to sense a person's death 17 months prior and maintains the sensation 17 months afterward), and a bunch more). Interestingly, the Book of Immortals (3rd party) had an interesting way of powering up characters in a vein similar to Mythic Tiers, but also defined your character by removing aspects of free will, and as such created interesting mindsets that feel more specialized as might happen for gods. Still, that was an even messier ruleset than the already confusing epic rules.
Any thoughts on this matter would be appreciated, thanks in advance.